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On August 06 2018 13:04 Kommander wrote:
I don't get why some people can't be happy or at least respect what Serral has accomplished. I guess that's just how the world works, success breeds contempt.
yup. if Stats won, I would have given him mad respect even though I am a Serral fan. People just like being petty I guess.
By the way, it seems like it's the perfect time to get back into SC2. The game looks so different than when I played a couple years ago.
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On August 06 2018 08:02 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 02:50 J. Corsair wrote:On August 06 2018 02:24 TentativePanda wrote:On August 06 2018 02:10 J. Corsair wrote:
Wow. Serral played incredibly and I am a big fan, but the hype is simply out of hand.
I thought it was pretty obvious that Maru was not taking this tournament as seriously as, for example, the GSL; and he clearly stated in the interview after playing Soo that he had been resting prior to the tournament and taking time off (I suppose it's fair to say you can do both simultaneously XD).
Even Gyuri (her English made my heart flutter, but that's another discussion) was obviously caught off-guard when Maru admitted he went 2-rax against Soo in Game 5 because he didn't have any strategy prepared for the map. That was certainly an unusually candid admission, and one could logically conclude that winning this tournament was not a large priority for him - especially taking into account his performance in the series against Soo, as a whole.
Maru's set 2 against Soo was an excellent example, in my opinion, of his lack of serious, committed preparation. In fact, he lost a map in a similar fashion against Nercio last year in the same tournament, I believe; only this time, he didn't pull SCVs when his push failed.
In comparison, Serral appeared to enter this tournament in what is likely his peak form - which is damn impressive. I just don't think winning it makes him the best player in the world, and I think there are multiple reasons to dispute such a claim, besides the simple observation that it's quite premature.
Serral's performance does, however, absolutely make him the best non-Korean competing in Starcraft, and one could certainly argue that he may be the best foreigner in Starcraft 2 history. I don't think the quality of his current form is even arguable, with regards to his level of play in comparison to other foreigners.
In other words, there are top-tier Koreans plus Serral, and then there's everyone else.
The point remains that many here have a short memory. When it was a massive tournament and there was $150,000 on the line, for example, Maru beat Serral... 4-0. That was this year.
Just like fair-weather fans of any team or person in major competition, the 'what have you done for me lately' attitude can just grow too far-fetched, and that is the reason I chose to chime in on this thread.
Serral beat Has to win Valencia and beat Mana to win Austin. Nothing against them, but these are not considered top-tier professional players. If we were to rank the top ten foreign SC players, neither Mana nor Has would be considered top 5, generally speaking. Maybe one of the would be top 10, IMO, but I personally don't think so.
Serral had a great tournament here, and I am especially impressed with his consistently strong performances, irrespective of his opponent's race.
But to say he is the best player in the world right now, period? Or the best player in 2018 thus far?
I simply don't agree that with this singular "non-region lock" tournament victory he suddenly surpasses Maru - the GSL 2018 Season 1 winner, GSL 2018 Season 2 winner, and WESG $250,000 winner. It does a great disservice to Maru, in particular.
He beat Maru in one good game today, but we have seen what Maru can do to Serral in an extended series this year already - Maru swept Serral 3:0 in a far more consequential series (financially speaking, at least).
It's not just about Maru - it's that Serral needs to show another similar performance where he claims victory over several top-tier Koreans in a more meaningful setting before people should begin making such claims. So far, he's doing everything right.
Serral played incredible Starcraft in this tournament, and it was impressive as hell. But I think the timing of this event was favorable for him. I suspect this because it seems that some of the top-level Koreans that competed were not heavily invested in winning this tournament in comparison to the other upcoming tournament that carries vastly more prestige; of course, I'm referencing Season 3 of the 2018 GSL.
Regardless, congratulations to Serral. That was one hell of a tournament, and I think I speak for all foreign SC2 fans when I say we are looking forward to Serral achieving more decisive victories and hopefully more tournament victories - maybe even the big one!
It would really be something special to be able to legitimately argue that the best Starcraft 2 player of 2018 was from FINLAND. It'd probably require a Blizzcon victory, but that's certainly within Serral's grasp - he's proven that much, to be sure.
So what I gleaned from that is you believe Maru (and the other Koreans?) were pulling a Lilbow and not practicing hard for it, and that somehow absolves them from losing and Serral isn't the best because they were putting in little effort. Huh Also, congrats to Serral! The perfect decision making, otherworldly macro, and insane game sense lead to him winning. Never took a fight he wouldn't win and always backed off and delayed fights he would lose. Lol. Reading comprehension... not a strong suit of yours, apparently.
Never said anyone was absolved from losing. Maru was vacationing and resting before this tournament and he was punished accordingly. His loss. Literally. Because of this performance, if he is to go out in GSL groups and Serral goes on to win the next big thing Maru's 'era' will be officially considered over, most likely, and Serral may well be considered the player to beat. I'll elaborate about my thoughts on the Koreans - they certainly didn't want to lose, especially to a foreigner. I think they considerably underestimated Serral's strength and by the time they realized how strong and varied his play was it was too late to stop him. Stats came really close though, but Serral nailed his game-winning push. Never said Serral isn't the best, I said he would need another tournament victory like this one to push him above the pack and stand alone as the single best player. One weekend tournament isn't enough to prove you are the best in anything, really. Some sports are particularly unforgiving, like boxing, MMA. But you need to consistently outperform the other top 5 players / teams in the world to be called the best in the world during that period, without a doubt. This is a fairly common and logical approach to determining performance. What I gleaned from your post is that you have trouble processing another person's written opinions objectively. LMAO Damn my inability to comprehend what I read was exposed by this genius TLer. Quite the hyperbole my friend. I see what you are saying, in that it's not super clear who the best player in the world is following that tournament; Serral certainly played the best - but every tournament there is someone who plays the best, and every tournament is absolutely NOT won by the same player. Therefore, dominance needs to be a sustained thing. Now, we could get into how he has dominated WCS, the Korean ladder, and now this tournament (it's a fact he dominated. Stats was only close due to gimmicky protoss builds). But that is in neither of our interests. What I find absolutely hilarious is your ability to say "I never said Serral wasn't the best" and literally separated by a comma and a space say "I said he would need another tournament victory like this one to push him above the pack and stand alone as the single best player". I'm sorry dude, but that's saying you saying he isn't the best in the world. If you wanted to say that it's just not clear yet, but he MAY be the best, you could have said that more clearly (for the ones like me who can't comprehend  ). Anyway, I've lost interest in this post 
So in other words, you see what I'm saying and understand the point, yet proceed to effectively mumble out a few paragraphs that essentially say nothing substantive whatsoever.
All the same, thanks for being civil and take care.
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On August 06 2018 10:46 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 06:00 IshinShishi wrote:On August 06 2018 05:23 sharkie wrote:
Thats definitely a big premier tournament win, right? its an allstars type of thing, the names were there, the preparation really wasn't for a chunk of the players. This is a pretty dumb take. Maybe -some- players didn't practice, but Dark and Stats especially definitely did not want to lose. Absolutely no one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win like this. It's just dumb.
No one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win because no one was saying that result is worthy of being called the best in the world. No one considered it greater than winning any other premier event.
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On August 06 2018 10:46 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 06:00 IshinShishi wrote:On August 06 2018 05:23 sharkie wrote:
Thats definitely a big premier tournament win, right? its an allstars type of thing, the names were there, the preparation really wasn't for a chunk of the players. This is a pretty dumb take. Maybe -some- players didn't practice, but Dark and Stats especially definitely did not want to lose. Absolutely no one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win like this. It's just dumb.
Yes and another thing I find dumb and naive is the lack of financial consideration. Most Koreans aren't paid salaries anymore. For most of them making $27k in a weekend is no joke and certainly worth trying, even more than before.
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can't believe people are discrediting serral's win by saying koreans didn't care.
they care about money.
the care about winning.
they care about being the best.
I think you could say they'll try extra hard vs foreigners.
OTT: I'm watching closely serral's improvement this year and seriously you have to be blind at this stage to doubt the kids skill. no one can say how far he'll get, but damn, this will be fun to watch
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Canada2764 Posts
On August 07 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 10:46 Soularion wrote:On August 06 2018 06:00 IshinShishi wrote:On August 06 2018 05:23 sharkie wrote:
Thats definitely a big premier tournament win, right? its an allstars type of thing, the names were there, the preparation really wasn't for a chunk of the players. This is a pretty dumb take. Maybe -some- players didn't practice, but Dark and Stats especially definitely did not want to lose. Absolutely no one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win like this. It's just dumb. No one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win because no one was saying that result is worthy of being called the best in the world. No one considered it greater than winning any other premier event.
I don't really think anyone really considers Serral better than Maru, and if they are, then yeah they're going too far.
But beating Dark and Stats (who are the clear candidates for #2 unless you wanna be weird) does help your case for 2nd best.
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On August 07 2018 07:56 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 10:46 Soularion wrote:On August 06 2018 06:00 IshinShishi wrote:On August 06 2018 05:23 sharkie wrote:
Thats definitely a big premier tournament win, right? its an allstars type of thing, the names were there, the preparation really wasn't for a chunk of the players. This is a pretty dumb take. Maybe -some- players didn't practice, but Dark and Stats especially definitely did not want to lose. Absolutely no one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win like this. It's just dumb. No one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win because no one was saying that result is worthy of being called the best in the world. No one considered it greater than winning any other premier event. I don't really think anyone really considers Serral better than Maru, and if they are, then yeah they're going too far. But beating Dark and Stats (who are the clear candidates for #2 unless you wanna be weird) does help your case for 2nd best.
Very well put sir.
I am the biggest Maru fan, but the Rogue that showed up against Maru in Ro8 is by far the scariest I have seen him this year and I dont think Maru would've pulled that off had it been a Bo7. If that version of Rogue shows up again sometime, he would disrupt these rankings of ours.
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I think we're missing a fundamental focus in the question. Casters hyped SC2 as a tradition in KR, we know well this isn't true, i also had occasion to talk with4 korean guys (not 4 at the same time) and they all gave me the same opinion: Korea dosn't love SC2 and not many people follows it, contrary most of e-sports fan don't watch it in a good way because they see only a way imposend by Blizz to replace BW and gain commercial control of the SC scene (BW/REMASTERED is a true tradition in KR, also at present time). It's a matter of fact that korean teams have disbanded because the game was not popolar, so Korea havn't any reason to continue with teams and sponsor and so Korean couldn't guaratee the same level of money and preparation to pro players that was given until the end of BW's tournaments and early SC2's. Until 2014 we saw a high level of preparation, skills challange and refinement and that's because there was the money to support that high level. Now Korean Pros have poor sponsors (not Pros from Jin Air) and so poor training programs; what i want to say is that Serral now faces koreans not at the level of preparation that KR pros had in the past and i don't think he could beat people like Soulkey, SOS or JD in 2013. I think that for a SC2 player now is better to find a sponsor outside of Korea in our days (like most of they did), but the problems doesn't end: u know that Dark has a domestic training program and he said that it's better than any team that he had offer after SKT division was disbanded? But for sure the training in SKT house was by far better than now, now Serral has a team and he's very well trained, but what if SC2 did't fail in KR and people like Soulkey continued to play intensively SC2? I don't think Serral could have any possibility. Now the skill development is higher than 2013, but the level of training and competition is VERY VERY lower, in Korea for sure. Serral defeated Korea, but that's a caricature of the true korean starcraft scene, so Korean dosn't care so much about this Serral, beacuse KR isn't committed anymore to serious level of SC2, so it could be Serral is better than other korean players now, but that's only because SC2 gained a little bit of consideration in EU from 2016 until now (when KR gave up EU and NA saw a possibility to win something), so teams and training are more serious than korean's. Also Innovation was teamless until 3 mounth ago and young KR pros don't choose SC2 to start the career (a considerable number of foreigns do that, most of them are from north eu or england). History could be made if that Serral defeated Flash in BW, but for now that's only the direct consequence of the death of KR SC2 scene.
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On August 07 2018 07:56 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 10:46 Soularion wrote:On August 06 2018 06:00 IshinShishi wrote:On August 06 2018 05:23 sharkie wrote:
Thats definitely a big premier tournament win, right? its an allstars type of thing, the names were there, the preparation really wasn't for a chunk of the players. This is a pretty dumb take. Maybe -some- players didn't practice, but Dark and Stats especially definitely did not want to lose. Absolutely no one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win like this. It's just dumb. No one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win because no one was saying that result is worthy of being called the best in the world. No one considered it greater than winning any other premier event. I don't really think anyone really considers Serral better than Maru, and if they are, then yeah they're going too far. But beating Dark and Stats (who are the clear candidates for #2 unless you wanna be weird) does help your case for 2nd best.
If you have a scroll down reddit, people really do. In fact it's the general consensus on there that he's better than Maru/the undisputed best player in the world. Even some saying he won GSL and that GSL vs TW is as tough as Code S, I saw a post where people called him a royal roader (he played in this exact event last year).
It's the first time I can think of that people use a showmatch, let alone a bo1 with no prep time, as proof that someone's a better player. This is what I mean when I say people hold foreigners to a different standard. No korean player would be called the best in the world for winning this event unless they had a bunch of other wins to go along with it (like INno last year).
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On August 07 2018 07:45 NotSoHappy wrote:
can't believe people are discrediting serral's win by saying koreans didn't care.
I don't think the point is that they didn't care, other than maybe Maru and Rogue they all care a lot about winning events like this.
But I think arguments people are making is that they didn't take Serral as seriously as they should. It's not unusal for top players to disregard players they consider easy during their preperation.
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On August 07 2018 10:13 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2018 07:45 NotSoHappy wrote:
can't believe people are discrediting serral's win by saying koreans didn't care. I don't think the point is that they didn't care, other than maybe Maru and Rogue they all care a lot about winning events like this. But I think arguments people are making is that they didn't take Serral as seriously as they should. It's not unusal for top players to disregard players they consider easy during their preperation.
I don’t think Korean players have considered Serral “easy” for a long time. Dude had 7.2k MMR on KR before the tournament, won 3 straight WCS convincingly, and had played/beaten Koreans before.
To say that these players didn’t practice for the event completely invalidates their purpose and efforts as progamers. Chalking Serrals win up to Korean lack of focus on preperation vs him, considering that most of them only have GSL which hasn’t even announced RO16 groups, is a bit off base.
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On August 07 2018 10:31 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2018 10:13 Fango wrote:On August 07 2018 07:45 NotSoHappy wrote:
can't believe people are discrediting serral's win by saying koreans didn't care. I don't think the point is that they didn't care, other than maybe Maru and Rogue they all care a lot about winning events like this. But I think arguments people are making is that they didn't take Serral as seriously as they should. It's not unusal for top players to disregard players they consider easy during their preperation. I don’t think Korean players have considered Serral “easy” for a long time. Dude had 7.2k MMR on KR before the tournament, won 3 straight WCS convincingly, and had played/beaten Koreans before. To say that these players didn’t practice for the event completely invalidates their purpose and efforts as progamers. Chalking Serrals win up to Korean lack of focus on preperation vs him, considering that most of them only have GSL which hasn’t even announced RO16 groups, is a bit off base.
INno didn't seem to know anything about Serral before the tournament. He said in the interview on day 2 that he'd just heard about Serral having 7K MMR, and that's when he thought it might be difficult.
I'm not saying they didn't practice or try for the event. My point is that unless they considered Serral as strong an opponent as Dark, Stats, Maru, Classic etc, it's unlikely they dedicated much time to studying him and preparing builds. At WeSG Maru and Dark did rinse and repeat builds and barely lost any maps to foreigners at all. They prepared specific strategies for the ro4/final against eachother though.
I'm not chalking up Serral's win purely to koreans not preparing either. He played really well at the event. I'm just saying that the win is seriously being overblown for various reasons.
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If he wins Montreal and beats Maru in the finals at Blizzcon tho im calling him the best player in the world
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Serral does not have 7k MMR on the KR server, jesus christ. He has it on EU, tired of seeing this as an argument.
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On August 07 2018 15:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Serral does not have 7k MMR on the KR server, jesus christ. He has it on EU, tired of seeing this as an argument. Yes, this is getting irritating.
Well, the general consensus on Reddit and YouTube is Serral is the undisputed best in the world. Sorry Maru, your 2 GSL wins and WESG win (where you swept Serral) don't matter as much as this weekend tournament and Serrals WCS wins, where the competition is far stronger.
I can't help but laugh.The hype is even more ridiculous than I thought. Oh well, it doesn't mean Serral should have anything taken away from him, he is incredibly talented and if he continues winning against this type of competition there won't be room for much argument at that point.
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On August 07 2018 15:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Serral does not have 7k MMR on the KR server, jesus christ. He has it on EU, tired of seeing this as an argument.
Either it was a translation error or Innovation was referring to the EU server this time around, but the idea that he didnt know anything about Serral is absurd because Serral did have 7k MMR on the Korean server (and rank #1 GM) prior to Blizzcon last year when he was practicing in Korea.
It doesnt look like Serral practiced at all in Korea before this tournament.
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On August 07 2018 17:02 rjpageuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2018 15:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Serral does not have 7k MMR on the KR server, jesus christ. He has it on EU, tired of seeing this as an argument. Either it was a translation error or Innovation was referring to the EU server this time around, but the idea that he didnt know anything about Serral is absurd because Serral did have 7k MMR on the Korean server (and rank #1 GM) prior to Blizzcon last year when he was practicing in Korea. It doesnt look like Serral practiced at all in Korea before this tournament.
INnoVation when asked about Serral:
I'm not watching his games, does everything go right for him currently?
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So, time to drop this whole ban on Koreans bs now?
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On August 07 2018 17:02 rjpageuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2018 15:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Serral does not have 7k MMR on the KR server, jesus christ. He has it on EU, tired of seeing this as an argument. Either it was a translation error or Innovation was referring to the EU server this time around, but the idea that he didnt know anything about Serral is absurd because Serral did have 7k MMR on the Korean server (and rank #1 GM) prior to Blizzcon last year when he was practicing in Korea. It doesnt look like Serral practiced at all in Korea before this tournament.
he had 7,2k mmr on korea but he leaves league. seen it myself.
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Yeah sOs faced a 7.2K MMR zerg on stream a few days ago I think.
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EPT
