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On August 06 2018 02:24 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 02:10 J. Corsair wrote:
Wow. Serral played incredibly and I am a big fan, but the hype is simply out of hand.
I thought it was pretty obvious that Maru was not taking this tournament as seriously as, for example, the GSL; and he clearly stated in the interview after playing Soo that he had been resting prior to the tournament and taking time off (I suppose it's fair to say you can do both simultaneously XD).
Even Gyuri (her English made my heart flutter, but that's another discussion) was obviously caught off-guard when Maru admitted he went 2-rax against Soo in Game 5 because he didn't have any strategy prepared for the map. That was certainly an unusually candid admission, and one could logically conclude that winning this tournament was not a large priority for him - especially taking into account his performance in the series against Soo, as a whole.
Maru's set 2 against Soo was an excellent example, in my opinion, of his lack of serious, committed preparation. In fact, he lost a map in a similar fashion against Nercio last year in the same tournament, I believe; only this time, he didn't pull SCVs when his push failed.
In comparison, Serral appeared to enter this tournament in what is likely his peak form - which is damn impressive. I just don't think winning it makes him the best player in the world, and I think there are multiple reasons to dispute such a claim, besides the simple observation that it's quite premature.
Serral's performance does, however, absolutely make him the best non-Korean competing in Starcraft, and one could certainly argue that he may be the best foreigner in Starcraft 2 history. I don't think the quality of his current form is even arguable, with regards to his level of play in comparison to other foreigners.
In other words, there are top-tier Koreans plus Serral, and then there's everyone else.
The point remains that many here have a short memory. When it was a massive tournament and there was $150,000 on the line, for example, Maru beat Serral... 4-0. That was this year.
Just like fair-weather fans of any team or person in major competition, the 'what have you done for me lately' attitude can just grow too far-fetched, and that is the reason I chose to chime in on this thread.
Serral beat Has to win Valencia and beat Mana to win Austin. Nothing against them, but these are not considered top-tier professional players. If we were to rank the top ten foreign SC players, neither Mana nor Has would be considered top 5, generally speaking. Maybe one of the would be top 10, IMO, but I personally don't think so.
Serral had a great tournament here, and I am especially impressed with his consistently strong performances, irrespective of his opponent's race.
But to say he is the best player in the world right now, period? Or the best player in 2018 thus far?
I simply don't agree that with this singular "non-region lock" tournament victory he suddenly surpasses Maru - the GSL 2018 Season 1 winner, GSL 2018 Season 2 winner, and WESG $250,000 winner. It does a great disservice to Maru, in particular.
He beat Maru in one good game today, but we have seen what Maru can do to Serral in an extended series this year already - Maru swept Serral 3:0 in a far more consequential series (financially speaking, at least).
It's not just about Maru - it's that Serral needs to show another similar performance where he claims victory over several top-tier Koreans in a more meaningful setting before people should begin making such claims. So far, he's doing everything right.
Serral played incredible Starcraft in this tournament, and it was impressive as hell. But I think the timing of this event was favorable for him. I suspect this because it seems that some of the top-level Koreans that competed were not heavily invested in winning this tournament in comparison to the other upcoming tournament that carries vastly more prestige; of course, I'm referencing Season 3 of the 2018 GSL.
Regardless, congratulations to Serral. That was one hell of a tournament, and I think I speak for all foreign SC2 fans when I say we are looking forward to Serral achieving more decisive victories and hopefully more tournament victories - maybe even the big one!
It would really be something special to be able to legitimately argue that the best Starcraft 2 player of 2018 was from FINLAND. It'd probably require a Blizzcon victory, but that's certainly within Serral's grasp - he's proven that much, to be sure.
So what I gleaned from that is you believe Maru (and the other Koreans?) were pulling a Lilbow and not practicing hard for it, and that somehow absolves them from losing and Serral isn't the best because they were putting in little effort. Huh Also, congrats to Serral! The perfect decision making, otherworldly macro, and insane game sense lead to him winning. Never took a fight he wouldn't win and always backed off and delayed fights he would lose.
Lol. Reading comprehension... not a strong suit of yours, apparently.
Never said anyone was absolved from losing. Maru was vacationing and resting before this tournament and he was punished accordingly. His loss. Literally. Because of this performance, if he is to go out in GSL groups and Serral goes on to win the next big thing Maru's 'era' will be officially considered over, most likely, and Serral may well be considered the player to beat.
I'll elaborate about my thoughts on the Koreans - they certainly didn't want to lose, especially to a foreigner. I think they considerably underestimated Serral's strength and by the time they realized how strong and varied his play was it was too late to stop him. Stats came really close though, but Serral nailed his game-winning push.
Never said Serral isn't the best, I said he would need another tournament victory like this one to push him above the pack and stand alone as the single best player. One weekend tournament isn't enough to prove you are the best in anything, really. Some sports are particularly unforgiving, like boxing, MMA. But you need to consistently outperform the other top 5 players / teams in the world to be called the best in the world during that period, without a doubt. This is a fairly common and logical approach to determining performance.
What I gleaned from your post is that you have trouble processing another person's written opinions objectively.
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On August 06 2018 02:37 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 02:34 Prince_Stranger wrote:
I don't follow sc2 tournaments usually, it was first time I watched one in last 3 years and it was great. Serral is absolutely incredible. I didn't expect any foreigner to be able to beat all top korean players that easy. It feels like people in this thread is not giving proper respect and taking it as fluke. Was Serral so bad before or what is the reason? The reason is just that people are massively overblowing it and calling Serral the best in the world because of this result. If a korean player had this result people wouldn't call them the best in the world unless it was Maru or Rogue (who have other great results this year). But what Serral did was very impressive, he proved he's on par with the top koreans which is a first in a while for a foreigner.
Sure in order to call the best you should be consistent and win the most important tournaments I guess for sc2 it is WCS Globals and maybe GSLs (I am not following the scene and I could be wrong). However, in this tournament we saw that Serral was head above most of the players which is just insane for me, it wasn't like one bo1 he won. He beat them fair and square. Sure in tournaments with 1-2 weeks of preparations against opponent results can be different but Serral has all necessary skills to succeed and it is just huge.
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On August 06 2018 02:39 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 02:24 TentativePanda wrote:On August 06 2018 02:10 J. Corsair wrote:
Wow. Serral played incredibly and I am a big fan, but the hype is simply out of hand.
I thought it was pretty obvious that Maru was not taking this tournament as seriously as, for example, the GSL; and he clearly stated in the interview after playing Soo that he had been resting prior to the tournament and taking time off (I suppose it's fair to say you can do both simultaneously XD).
Even Gyuri (her English made my heart flutter, but that's another discussion) was obviously caught off-guard when Maru admitted he went 2-rax against Soo in Game 5 because he didn't have any strategy prepared for the map. That was certainly an unusually candid admission, and one could logically conclude that winning this tournament was not a large priority for him - especially taking into account his performance in the series against Soo, as a whole.
Maru's set 2 against Soo was an excellent example, in my opinion, of his lack of serious, committed preparation. In fact, he lost a map in a similar fashion against Nercio last year in the same tournament, I believe; only this time, he didn't pull SCVs when his push failed.
In comparison, Serral appeared to enter this tournament in what is likely his peak form - which is damn impressive. I just don't think winning it makes him the best player in the world, and I think there are multiple reasons to dispute such a claim, besides the simple observation that it's quite premature.
Serral's performance does, however, absolutely make him the best non-Korean competing in Starcraft, and one could certainly argue that he may be the best foreigner in Starcraft 2 history. I don't think the quality of his current form is even arguable, with regards to his level of play in comparison to other foreigners.
In other words, there are top-tier Koreans plus Serral, and then there's everyone else.
The point remains that many here have a short memory. When it was a massive tournament and there was $150,000 on the line, for example, Maru beat Serral... 4-0. That was this year.
Just like fair-weather fans of any team or person in major competition, the 'what have you done for me lately' attitude can just grow too far-fetched, and that is the reason I chose to chime in on this thread.
Serral beat Has to win Valencia and beat Mana to win Austin. Nothing against them, but these are not considered top-tier professional players. If we were to rank the top ten foreign SC players, neither Mana nor Has would be considered top 5, generally speaking. Maybe one of the would be top 10, IMO, but I personally don't think so.
Serral had a great tournament here, and I am especially impressed with his consistently strong performances, irrespective of his opponent's race.
But to say he is the best player in the world right now, period? Or the best player in 2018 thus far?
I simply don't agree that with this singular "non-region lock" tournament victory he suddenly surpasses Maru - the GSL 2018 Season 1 winner, GSL 2018 Season 2 winner, and WESG $250,000 winner. It does a great disservice to Maru, in particular.
He beat Maru in one good game today, but we have seen what Maru can do to Serral in an extended series this year already - Maru swept Serral 3:0 in a far more consequential series (financially speaking, at least).
It's not just about Maru - it's that Serral needs to show another similar performance where he claims victory over several top-tier Koreans in a more meaningful setting before people should begin making such claims. So far, he's doing everything right.
Serral played incredible Starcraft in this tournament, and it was impressive as hell. But I think the timing of this event was favorable for him. I suspect this because it seems that some of the top-level Koreans that competed were not heavily invested in winning this tournament in comparison to the other upcoming tournament that carries vastly more prestige; of course, I'm referencing Season 3 of the 2018 GSL.
Regardless, congratulations to Serral. That was one hell of a tournament, and I think I speak for all foreign SC2 fans when I say we are looking forward to Serral achieving more decisive victories and hopefully more tournament victories - maybe even the big one!
It would really be something special to be able to legitimately argue that the best Starcraft 2 player of 2018 was from FINLAND. It'd probably require a Blizzcon victory, but that's certainly within Serral's grasp - he's proven that much, to be sure.
So what I gleaned from that is you believe Maru (and the other Koreans?) were pulling a Lilbow and not practicing hard for it, and that somehow absolves them from losing and Serral isn't the best because they were putting in little effort. Huh You're missing the point. They aren't absolved from losing. Serral played the best out of everyone in this event. The point was you need to put context on it when someone wins. Maru wasn't taking this event as seiously as GSL or whatever, INno and Dark also didn't show much respect in preperation for Serral. That doesn't mean the wins are meaningless, it's the best thing in Serral's career (so far at least  ), but it means there's a difference between winning this and winning say GSL.
Thank you for helping explain the point to this person, that should help them understand. XD
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I don't agree. I think Koreans really wanted to beat Serral to prove they are still kings of SC2. Dark trash talking every foreigner, he crushed Scarlet card even she's only girl in pro scene, grown woman and she deserve respect for both. When he was facing Serral different story, true respect because he knew he could clown himself with some bullsh. 3-0 vs Inno is amazing, he couldn't touch Finnish youngster and I'm sure he didn't plan to go 0-3. He was looking hopeless. Then he came back from 0-2 vs Stats who was playing incredible cup, I thought he could even 4-0 Serral after those 2 games. Even in WCS, yes he won vs Mana and Has but you have to reach finals in first place. Right now he doesn't care who he is facing, he will take anyone. He got game figured out, plus he is incredible fast and smart. I swear to God those lings run by's are looking 100% like Life's lings. Maybe some of you remember how this small young kid from Korea was playing zerg, for me pretty similar to Serral. But he added so much more, this zvz vs Dark when they both took gold bases but he was one step a head whole game? Omg I need to stop here. This kid is amazing, Overmind is back!!!
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On August 06 2018 02:55 buffzerg33 wrote:
I don't agree. I think Koreans really wanted to beat Serral to prove they are still kings of SC2. Dark trash talking every foreigner, he crush Scarlet card even she's only girl in pro scene, grown woman and she deserve respect for both. When he was facing Serral different story, true respect because he knew he can clown himself with some bullsh. 3-0 vs Inno is amazing, he couldn't touch Finnish youngster and I'm sure he didn't plan to go 0-3. He look hopeless. Then he came back from 0-2 vs Stats who was playing incredible cup, I thought he could even 4-0 Serral after those 2 games. Even in WCS, yes he won vs Mana and Has but you have to reach finals in first place. Right now he doesn't care who he is facing, he will take anyone. He got game figured out, plus he is incredible fast and smart. I swear to God those lings run by's are looking 100% like Life's lings. Maybe some of you remember how this small young kid from Korea was playing zerg, for me pretty similar to Serral. But he added so much more, this zvz vs Dark when they both took gold bases but he was one step a head whole game? Omg I need to stop here. This kid is amazing, Overmind is back!!!
I agree. If he can perform like this against the best Koreans again we will have a new world champion.
I don't think he is living in Korea now but since he's been there his play has looked even sharper, I think he should use this prize money and move there, at least temporarily. He would only get better!
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On August 06 2018 00:32 buffzerg33 wrote:
Kespa as organization left, but players not. Those who were actually good, stayed and put SC2 to another level. Games now days are waaaaaaay better from wol/hot. Watching Serral is like watching robot. He just owned Inno Dark and Stats plus won all wcs-s. He is at top of SC2 world atm.
I wonder if people actually watched the games, there were so many mistakes from both players, especially in the last couple games, that it really made me wonder about this whole "highest skill era" discourse. Stats was floating above 1k-2k mins and 300-600 gas for 3 minutes, at points he would lose high templars still with storm to cast, Serral was blowing tons of banes on random structures with abandon, idk kev.
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can't wait for blizzcon when the koreans actually prep for serral, that will be an intense fight.
gratz on the win
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an impressive run for Serral
he'd have a good chance to royal road Code S, but it will be more difficult as his style would be more scrutinized with more time to prepare
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Can he complete the perfect sweep of 2018 with another WCS win and a Blizzcon win?
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Congrats Serral and wp Stats, what a sick bo7.
Apart from some audio issues the production of this event was insane!
Next TL PR will be interesting. Serral is definitely top 3 in my book.
Let's don't talk about the Community PR, bad timing I guess  .
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On August 06 2018 03:42 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 00:32 buffzerg33 wrote:
Kespa as organization left, but players not. Those who were actually good, stayed and put SC2 to another level. Games now days are waaaaaaay better from wol/hot. Watching Serral is like watching robot. He just owned Inno Dark and Stats plus won all wcs-s. He is at top of SC2 world atm. I wonder if people actually watched the games, there were so many mistakes from both players, especially in the last couple games, that it really made me wonder about this whole "highest skill era" discourse. Stats was floating above 1k-2k mins and 300-600 gas for 3 minutes, at points he would lose high templars still with storm to cast, Serral was blowing tons of banes on random structures with abandon, idk kev.
Yeah I don't think it was a coincidence that the era of maximum Korean dominance corresponded with team houses and proleague.
Don't really want to give kespa the credit since they were pretty awful, but the existence of an organized support structure made a difference.
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Thats definitely a big premier tournament win, right?
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On August 06 2018 05:23 sharkie wrote:
Thats definitely a big premier tournament win, right?
its an allstars type of thing, the names were there, the preparation really wasn't for a chunk of the players.
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Serrals decision maning was top notch but he still has lot of room for improvement in army control. Good thing his macro is top tier so he can throw units on to his opponent.
GG Serral, Blizzcon is going to be fantastic this year!
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On August 06 2018 02:55 buffzerg33 wrote:
I don't agree. I think Koreans really wanted to beat Serral to prove they are still kings of SC2. Dark trash talking every foreigner, he crushed Scarlet card even she's only girl in pro scene, grown woman and she deserve respect for both.
meh, Canadians have no problem trash talking and much worse when you try to enter their country and play the game where they're #1 in the world. So too bad. The physical beatings the swedes and finns took when they came to NA to play hockey... shouldn't have happened to a dog.
When you play a game at the top level in a country where the natives are the best .... expect trash talk or worse.
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On August 06 2018 02:50 J. Corsair wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 02:24 TentativePanda wrote:On August 06 2018 02:10 J. Corsair wrote:
Wow. Serral played incredibly and I am a big fan, but the hype is simply out of hand.
I thought it was pretty obvious that Maru was not taking this tournament as seriously as, for example, the GSL; and he clearly stated in the interview after playing Soo that he had been resting prior to the tournament and taking time off (I suppose it's fair to say you can do both simultaneously XD).
Even Gyuri (her English made my heart flutter, but that's another discussion) was obviously caught off-guard when Maru admitted he went 2-rax against Soo in Game 5 because he didn't have any strategy prepared for the map. That was certainly an unusually candid admission, and one could logically conclude that winning this tournament was not a large priority for him - especially taking into account his performance in the series against Soo, as a whole.
Maru's set 2 against Soo was an excellent example, in my opinion, of his lack of serious, committed preparation. In fact, he lost a map in a similar fashion against Nercio last year in the same tournament, I believe; only this time, he didn't pull SCVs when his push failed.
In comparison, Serral appeared to enter this tournament in what is likely his peak form - which is damn impressive. I just don't think winning it makes him the best player in the world, and I think there are multiple reasons to dispute such a claim, besides the simple observation that it's quite premature.
Serral's performance does, however, absolutely make him the best non-Korean competing in Starcraft, and one could certainly argue that he may be the best foreigner in Starcraft 2 history. I don't think the quality of his current form is even arguable, with regards to his level of play in comparison to other foreigners.
In other words, there are top-tier Koreans plus Serral, and then there's everyone else.
The point remains that many here have a short memory. When it was a massive tournament and there was $150,000 on the line, for example, Maru beat Serral... 4-0. That was this year.
Just like fair-weather fans of any team or person in major competition, the 'what have you done for me lately' attitude can just grow too far-fetched, and that is the reason I chose to chime in on this thread.
Serral beat Has to win Valencia and beat Mana to win Austin. Nothing against them, but these are not considered top-tier professional players. If we were to rank the top ten foreign SC players, neither Mana nor Has would be considered top 5, generally speaking. Maybe one of the would be top 10, IMO, but I personally don't think so.
Serral had a great tournament here, and I am especially impressed with his consistently strong performances, irrespective of his opponent's race.
But to say he is the best player in the world right now, period? Or the best player in 2018 thus far?
I simply don't agree that with this singular "non-region lock" tournament victory he suddenly surpasses Maru - the GSL 2018 Season 1 winner, GSL 2018 Season 2 winner, and WESG $250,000 winner. It does a great disservice to Maru, in particular.
He beat Maru in one good game today, but we have seen what Maru can do to Serral in an extended series this year already - Maru swept Serral 3:0 in a far more consequential series (financially speaking, at least).
It's not just about Maru - it's that Serral needs to show another similar performance where he claims victory over several top-tier Koreans in a more meaningful setting before people should begin making such claims. So far, he's doing everything right.
Serral played incredible Starcraft in this tournament, and it was impressive as hell. But I think the timing of this event was favorable for him. I suspect this because it seems that some of the top-level Koreans that competed were not heavily invested in winning this tournament in comparison to the other upcoming tournament that carries vastly more prestige; of course, I'm referencing Season 3 of the 2018 GSL.
Regardless, congratulations to Serral. That was one hell of a tournament, and I think I speak for all foreign SC2 fans when I say we are looking forward to Serral achieving more decisive victories and hopefully more tournament victories - maybe even the big one!
It would really be something special to be able to legitimately argue that the best Starcraft 2 player of 2018 was from FINLAND. It'd probably require a Blizzcon victory, but that's certainly within Serral's grasp - he's proven that much, to be sure.
So what I gleaned from that is you believe Maru (and the other Koreans?) were pulling a Lilbow and not practicing hard for it, and that somehow absolves them from losing and Serral isn't the best because they were putting in little effort. Huh Also, congrats to Serral! The perfect decision making, otherworldly macro, and insane game sense lead to him winning. Never took a fight he wouldn't win and always backed off and delayed fights he would lose. Lol. Reading comprehension... not a strong suit of yours, apparently.
Never said anyone was absolved from losing. Maru was vacationing and resting before this tournament and he was punished accordingly. His loss. Literally. Because of this performance, if he is to go out in GSL groups and Serral goes on to win the next big thing Maru's 'era' will be officially considered over, most likely, and Serral may well be considered the player to beat. I'll elaborate about my thoughts on the Koreans - they certainly didn't want to lose, especially to a foreigner. I think they considerably underestimated Serral's strength and by the time they realized how strong and varied his play was it was too late to stop him. Stats came really close though, but Serral nailed his game-winning push. Never said Serral isn't the best, I said he would need another tournament victory like this one to push him above the pack and stand alone as the single best player. One weekend tournament isn't enough to prove you are the best in anything, really. Some sports are particularly unforgiving, like boxing, MMA. But you need to consistently outperform the other top 5 players / teams in the world to be called the best in the world during that period, without a doubt. This is a fairly common and logical approach to determining performance. What I gleaned from your post is that you have trouble processing another person's written opinions objectively.
LMAO
Damn my inability to comprehend what I read was exposed by this genius TLer. Quite the hyperbole my friend.
I see what you are saying, in that it's not super clear who the best player in the world is following that tournament; Serral certainly played the best - but every tournament there is someone who plays the best, and every tournament is absolutely NOT won by the same player. Therefore, dominance needs to be a sustained thing. Now, we could get into how he has dominated WCS, the Korean ladder, and now this tournament (it's a fact he dominated. Stats was only close due to gimmicky protoss builds). But that is in neither of our interests.
What I find absolutely hilarious is your ability to say "I never said Serral wasn't the best" and literally separated by a comma and a space say "I said he would need another tournament victory like this one to push him above the pack and stand alone as the single best player".
I'm sorry dude, but that's saying you saying he isn't the best in the world. If you wanted to say that it's just not clear yet, but he MAY be the best, you could have said that more clearly (for the ones like me who can't comprehend  ).
Anyway, I've lost interest in this post 
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Canada2764 Posts
On August 06 2018 06:00 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 05:23 sharkie wrote:
Thats definitely a big premier tournament win, right? its an allstars type of thing, the names were there, the preparation really wasn't for a chunk of the players.
This is a pretty dumb take. Maybe -some- players didn't practice, but Dark and Stats especially definitely did not want to lose.
Absolutely no one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win like this. It's just dumb.
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Blah blah blah he hasn't proved himself against koreans blah blah blah he koreans he beat were off form blah blah blah there was a lack of preparation blah blah blah this wasn't a premier tournament blah blah blah
My popcorn got very salty
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On August 06 2018 10:46 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 06:00 IshinShishi wrote:On August 06 2018 05:23 sharkie wrote:
Thats definitely a big premier tournament win, right? its an allstars type of thing, the names were there, the preparation really wasn't for a chunk of the players. This is a pretty dumb take. Maybe -some- players didn't practice, but Dark and Stats especially definitely did not want to lose. Absolutely no one discredited INno's GSL vs the World win like this. It's just dumb.
Yeah, Serral's win was pretty legit. I think that Maru specifically wasn't at full power. I also think that the Koreans might not have taken Serral seriously as a top top player until it was too late. That doesn't take anything away from him, it just means that when people look at these results and declare Serral the best player in the world, I think there is still a question mark about that. But there should be little to no doubt now that he is one of the very best.
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I don't get why some people can't be happy or at least respect what Serral has accomplished. I guess that's just how the world works, success breeds contempt.
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EPT
