Are you actually hating on phoenixes? That's just ridiculous.
"Let's make the fastest unit in the game be able to shoot while moving, while at the same time give it an upgrade for 7 range, what could possibly go wrong?"
Playing phoenix styles also takes great multitasking, good phoenix control (which is very hard), good decisionmaking, etc.
Phoenixes are far better designed than 99% of everything else in the game.
Nah, they aren't, they are pretty horrible but it's ok, I didn't expect anything different from a guy who thinks that PvP is the best matchup in the game.
The best mirror, yeah
I like your arguments by the way. I don't think you've ever played phoenix styles or you would realize that few things are harder to do and phoenixes are an insanely intricate and intriguing unit.
Look, Phoenix as unit(without upgrade) is actually ok, but it still falls into a SC2 category of hard counters that just make for horrible games. It is just quite hard counter to whole Zerg air and Zerg has to tech to Infestors just to be able to counter Phoenixes.
So your argument is that you need certain tech to beat another?
Are you trying to tell me that there's a strategic aspect to the game?!
No, I am telling you that hard counters are stupid and that your reading comprehension is worse than Solar's Corruptor control.
On July 03 2015 20:58 mderg wrote:
On July 03 2015 20:56 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On July 03 2015 20:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On July 03 2015 20:51 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On July 03 2015 20:49 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On July 03 2015 20:47 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On July 03 2015 20:45 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
Are you actually hating on phoenixes? That's just ridiculous.
"Let's make the fastest unit in the game be able to shoot while moving, while at the same time give it an upgrade for 7 range, what could possibly go wrong?"
Playing phoenix styles also takes great multitasking, good phoenix control (which is very hard), good decisionmaking, etc.
Phoenixes are far better designed than 99% of everything else in the game.
Nah, they aren't, they are pretty horrible but it's ok, I didn't expect anything different from a guy who thinks that PvP is the best matchup in the game.
The best mirror, yeah
I like your arguments by the way. I don't think you've ever played phoenix styles or you would realize that few things are harder to do and phoenixes are an insanely intricate and intriguing unit.
Look, Phoenix as unit(without upgrade) is actually ok, but it still falls into a SC2 category of hard counters that just make for horrible games. It is just quite hard counter to whole Zerg air and Zerg has to tech to Infestors just to be able to counter Phoenixes.
Phoenixes are a good counter to corruptors, yeah.
If you haven't watched the game, 11 Phoenixes died during the first half of the game while 20 Mutalisks and 20 Corrupters died on Zerg's side. Yeah, when you have range upgraded, they are faster than Corruptors, have more range and shoot while they move. Phoenixes can hit and run the whole time while only thing you can do with Corruptors is a-move and still be kited.
You still haven't made one reasonable argument. Phoenixes counter mutas quite hard, sure. Why is that a bad thing again? Because you have to transition against phoenix and can't brainlessly mass mutas?
Soft counters are not a bad thing, hard counters are. Because it comes to the point where you instantly die when you don't have that one unit you need, like if you don't have Colossi you get stream rolled by masses of Roaches and Hydras, or Bio, but if you do it is the opposite, then opponent needs to have Vipers and if he has you are good as dead if both have good control, then if you have High Templars, Vipers are most likely dead before they pull the Colossi etc. Instead of needing to micro better, you need to have right units at the right time, it creates stupid situations.
We've made a lot of reasonable arguments, for whatever reason you are ignoring them.
On July 03 2015 20:47 Ramiz1989 wrote: [quote] "Let's make the fastest unit in the game be able to shoot while moving, while at the same time give it an upgrade for 7 range, what could possibly go wrong?"
Playing phoenix styles also takes great multitasking, good phoenix control (which is very hard), good decisionmaking, etc.
Phoenixes are far better designed than 99% of everything else in the game.
Nah, they aren't, they are pretty horrible but it's ok, I didn't expect anything different from a guy who thinks that PvP is the best matchup in the game.
The best mirror, yeah
I like your arguments by the way. I don't think you've ever played phoenix styles or you would realize that few things are harder to do and phoenixes are an insanely intricate and intriguing unit.
Look, Phoenix as unit(without upgrade) is actually ok, but it still falls into a SC2 category of hard counters that just make for horrible games. It is just quite hard counter to whole Zerg air and Zerg has to tech to Infestors just to be able to counter Phoenixes.
So your argument is that you need a certain tech to beat another?
Are you trying to tell me that there's a strategic aspect to the game?!
the argument is that no matter your air superiority, phoenixes with an upgrade destroy everything without taking any damage (if you have proper control). It's kind of sucky design, yeah.
That "proper" control, say vs muta/corruptor, is so difficult to do though that I have absolutely no issue with that. The same argument can be made about a concussive shell marauder killing an infinite amount of zealots without charge. It's possible, but so hard to do that it's fine.
And no, phoenixes are not the end all counter to zerg air. Muta/corruptor with a good enough corruptor count does beat it, which is why protoss HAS to add in a stalker/archon ground army and zerg transitions to infestors.
What the actual fuck?
Yeah, the only difference is that Marauders are limited by ground and ground objects and are also limited by stim that chops a lot of their HP, it is pretty much impossible for Marauders to kill "infinite" amount of Zealots, where with Phoenixes you don't even have to move and a-click, just move properly.
It is hard at the start for the Phoenixes when they don't have range upgrade and when you don't have enough of them, but later when you have ~20 Phoenixes? It is piece of cake, Corruptors can't kill catch you and Mutas melt instantly. It is also funny how you think that Phoenixes are tough to micro while on the other hand there is no any micro on the Zerg's side, as he can't do any against faster units with more range than his.
So you've never seen zergs micro against phoenixes by retreating and then stopping to fire? Actually just go watch any soO game from 2014 before you keep arguing. With a good enough corruptor count, they 1 shot phoenixes. As long as your upgrades are good enough, phoenixes won't kill them quickly. That "easy control" you're talking about requires you to babysit phoenixes 24/7. You CANNOT leave them alone for even a second. But at the same time you also have to macro properly, control your ground army movement, etc.etc. Go play phoenix styles before you keep arguing. It's painfully obvious that you have no idea how hard they are to play.
And perhaps, JUST PERHAPS, you could consider adding infestors against 20+ phoenixes. Transitioning is a part of every RTS game and you keep failing to address why having to add infestors is a bad thing.
No, I don't know how hard it is to play Phoenix style as I am not a Protoss player, but I know how easy it is to control Phoenixes as I was playing with them... same can be said for you about Muta/Corruptors style, you see a ton of players losing a lot of Mutalisks in a matter of seconds when they are not following them. I don't know what so special about Phoenixes in that regard, every race has to micro, macro and multitask at the same time, it's called Starcraft... Mutalisks also need to be babysitted 24/7.
Playing phoenix styles also takes great multitasking, good phoenix control (which is very hard), good decisionmaking, etc.
Phoenixes are far better designed than 99% of everything else in the game.
Nah, they aren't, they are pretty horrible but it's ok, I didn't expect anything different from a guy who thinks that PvP is the best matchup in the game.
The best mirror, yeah
I like your arguments by the way. I don't think you've ever played phoenix styles or you would realize that few things are harder to do and phoenixes are an insanely intricate and intriguing unit.
Look, Phoenix as unit(without upgrade) is actually ok, but it still falls into a SC2 category of hard counters that just make for horrible games. It is just quite hard counter to whole Zerg air and Zerg has to tech to Infestors just to be able to counter Phoenixes.
So your argument is that you need a certain tech to beat another?
Are you trying to tell me that there's a strategic aspect to the game?!
the argument is that no matter your air superiority, phoenixes with an upgrade destroy everything without taking any damage (if you have proper control). It's kind of sucky design, yeah.
That "proper" control, say vs muta/corruptor, is so difficult to do though that I have absolutely no issue with that. The same argument can be made about a concussive shell marauder killing an infinite amount of zealots without charge. It's possible, but so hard to do that it's fine.
And no, phoenixes are not the end all counter to zerg air. Muta/corruptor with a good enough corruptor count does beat it, which is why protoss HAS to add in a stalker/archon ground army and zerg transitions to infestors.
What the actual fuck?
Yeah, the only difference is that Marauders are limited by ground and ground objects and are also limited by stim that chops a lot of their HP, it is pretty much impossible for Marauders to kill "infinite" amount of Zealots, where with Phoenixes you don't even have to move and a-click, just move properly.
It is hard at the start for the Phoenixes when they don't have range upgrade and when you don't have enough of them, but later when you have ~20 Phoenixes? It is piece of cake, Corruptors can't kill catch you and Mutas melt instantly. It is also funny how you think that Phoenixes are tough to micro while on the other hand there is no any micro on the Zerg's side, as he can't do any against faster units with more range than his.
So you've never seen zergs micro against phoenixes by retreating and then stopping to fire? Actually just go watch any soO game from 2014 before you keep arguing. With a good enough corruptor count, they 1 shot phoenixes. As long as your upgrades are good enough, phoenixes won't kill them quickly. That "easy control" you're talking about requires you to babysit phoenixes 24/7. You CANNOT leave them alone for even a second. But at the same time you also have to macro properly, control your ground army movement, etc.etc. Go play phoenix styles before you keep arguing. It's painfully obvious that you have no idea how hard they are to play.
And perhaps, JUST PERHAPS, you could consider adding infestors against 20+ phoenixes. Transitioning is a part of every RTS game and you keep failing to address why having to add infestors is a bad thing.
No, I don't know how hard it is to play Phoenix style as I am not a Protoss player, but I know how easy it is to control Phoenixes as I was playing with them... same can be said for you about Muta/Corruptors style, you see a ton of players losing a lot of Mutalisks in a matter of seconds when they are not following them. I don't know what so special about Phoenixes in that regard, every race has to micro, macro and multitask at the same time, it's called Starcraft... Mutalisks also need to be babysitted 24/7.
And yet here you are arguing that phoenixes are poorly designed.
EPT
