EPT[WCS AM] Ro4 and Finals Premier Season 2 2014 - Page 144
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On July 07 2014 23:38 Doodsmack wrote: When your race can rush to a capital ship with impunity then you can be sure photon overcharge is broken LOL. He lost that game because Bomber pressured and Pigbaby didn't have enough at home, which greatly reduced the later attack. | ||
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AlternativeEgo
Sweden17309 Posts
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eightym
United States76 Posts
On July 07 2014 TotalBiscuit wrote: The situation [current protoss imbalance] is clearly better [than BL/infestor] and I think anyone that doesn't believe that has a very short memory. On July 07 2014 13:44 dvorakftw wrote: Protoss has won 13 of the last 19 Premier tournaments with 6 PvP Finals. A Protoss has been in 17 of those 19 events. At the end of WoL we had only 9 Zerg champs out of 19 events with 8 ZvZ Finals. A Zerg was in only 13 of those 19 events. On July 07 2014 13:45 TotalBiscuit wrote: Your mistake is believing that anyone disagrees with the idea that Protoss is dominant right now and not that they simply disagree with the way a certain vocal balance-whining deadcat wearing Terran decides to express it. Here, TB confronts facts and changes his argument. "Ok, BL/Infestor may not have been worse. But avilo is a big doo-doo head!" Fans on both sides jump in and the thread turns for the worse. TB toxic for the community? You be the judge. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On July 08 2014 01:09 eightym wrote: Here, TB confronts facts and changes his argument. "Ok, BL/Infestor may not have been worse. But avilo is a big doo-doo head!" Fans on both sides jump in and the thread turns for the worse. TB toxic for the community? You be the judge. Are you blind or just dumb? That is not me changing my argument at all. You just quoted me saying the same thing twice. Protoss is currently dominant right now, but it is not as bad as the Broodlord/Infestor era. That has been my stance the entire time and you just quoted two things that don't contradict each other. You believe that the other Avilo fanbois facts prove that I am wrong, yet this is obviously not the case. Tournament wins are a particularly poor metric to use to assess balance. If you did that, then you would look at Brood Wars results and see unheard of amounts of "imbalance". Here's the real fact. Protoss is losing maps, protoss is losing series, protoss is not using the same build time and again for almost guaranteed wins against Terran. Zerg on the other hand were indeed using exactly the same build time and again to win against Terran for a very long period of time. Terran could not beat it. Terran can beat Protoss. They are not beating Protoss as much as they should be, but they can beat them and the games and builds on display are varied, which was clearly not the case in the BL/Infestor era. Anyone that believes otherwise I would suggest, was not around during that time to experience it or is practicing revisionist history. As someone that was casting major tournaments during the BL/Infestor era and basically quit casting for months because of how bad BL/Infestor got, I find your intellectual dishonesty distasteful. I watched Ryung play the best Starcraft he's ever done and still lose to Snipers BL/Infestor. Oh I remember every single moment of it vividly. You have the audacity to come to me and make spurious claims that the current situation is somehow worse than that? Oh please. But congratulations on proving my point nicely. Avilo fanbois bring his toxicity to other threads too, spreading the disease. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11952 Posts
On July 08 2014 01:09 eightym wrote: Here, TB confronts facts and changes his argument. "Ok, BL/Infestor may not have been worse. But avilo is a big doo-doo head!" Fans on both sides jump in and the thread turns for the worse. TB toxic for the community? You be the judge. You would have a point if this wasn't TB's position from the start. Except it was. You would have a point if these statements were contradictory. Except they aren't. Guess you have no point then. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
Looking forward to more protoss winning more stuff in the near future. There is plenty more: Rain, Parting, Sora, Patience, First, Alicia, Super, YongHwa, Jim, elfi and so on. Fun times  | ||
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On July 08 2014 01:22 scypio wrote: So, the protoss won... who would have thought! Looking forward to more protoss winning more stuff in the near future. There is plenty more: Rain, Parting, Sora, Patience, First, Alicia, Super, YongHwa, Jim, elfi and so on. Fun times I'd be surprised if half of those players won a major/premier tournament in the next 6 months :p | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On July 08 2014 01:39 SatedSC2 wrote: Well, Elfi-God definitely will... so who are the others that you think have a chance? =P Rain, First, Alicia, PartinG have the best chances (besides elfi) | ||
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Spect8rCraft
649 Posts
On July 08 2014 01:49 The_Templar wrote: Rain, First, Alicia, PartinG have the best chances (besides elfi) Curiously enough, why isn't Scarlett on that list?  (Too soon?) | ||
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AlternativeEgo
Sweden17309 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On July 07 2014 23:46 The_Templar wrote: He lost that game because Bomber pressured and Pigbaby didn't have enough at home, which greatly reduced the later attack. I was actually referring to the tempest game, but it still applies to the carrier game considering he survived the pressure from bomber at all. | ||
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On July 08 2014 02:07 Doodsmack wrote: I was actually referring to the tempest game, but it still applies to the carrier game considering he survived the pressure from bomber at all. Bomber was going for an all-in which requires your opponent not scout/react properly. Pigbaby reacted properly. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On July 08 2014 02:16 The_Templar wrote: Bomber was going for an all-in which requires your opponent not scout/react properly. Pigbaby reacted properly. Pig baby reacted properly and the reaction he chose was made possible by an overpowered mechanic his race has. The reaction was "proper" in the sense that it was his best choice, and his best choice consisted of exploiting a broken mechanic. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On July 08 2014 01:17 TotalBiscuit wrote: Tournament wins are a particularly poor metric to use to assess balance. They are however a pretty good metric of how successful a SC2 career will be. Consider these fun facts based on data before this weekend's events: sOs, Zest, and Classic this year have won a combined $256,445 in 2014. The top 14 Zergs in 2014 have a combined $261,541. Every Terran in every event in 2014 combined have $241,708.00. Take away the $100k IEM and the two $67k GSLs and the top 16 Protoss in 2014 (according to Aligulac) have earned $244,195 which is STILL MORE than EVERY Terran in EVERY event in 2014. But again, the important part is that we agree that right now Protoss and Terran (and Zerg) need changes to bring them closer to equal balance. protoss is not using the same build time and again for almost guaranteed wins against Terran. The foundation of the current TvP imbalance is that Protoss can do multiple builds. If, for example, a Terran works to defend against an oracle he has more of a disadvantage against a blink all-in. Also the Protoss is using the same build every game to defend against Terran and that is to make a MotherShipCore and then using photon overcharge. Yes there are variants such as cancelling the first zealot or adding a few sentries with the stalkers. They are not beating Protoss as much as they should be, but they can beat them and the games and builds on display are varied, Well, they are varied on one side. We can now add carrier rush and tempest rush to proxy gate, proxy oracle, DT drop, immortal bust, phoenix/colossus, amazing storms and so on. Meanwhile tanks, banshees, thors, and BCs only make cameo appearances in most TvPs which are more likely to be won or lost based on how well an SCV pull goes. You have the audacity to come to me and make spurious claims that the current situation is somehow worse than that? Oh please. Spurious? There are many fact-based statistics that show in many ways the current Protoss dominance is greater than what Zergs enjoyed at the end of WoL. For example Protoss winning 11 out 15 premier events in 2014. Yes it's nice the games are still more or less entertaining but for some of us it gets a little old seeing a Protoss in every 2014 Premier final except one. Of course, it doesn't really matter if the current imbalance is worse than previous eras of imbalance because we agree Protoss is currently stronger than the other races and that should change. But congratulations on proving my point nicely. Avilo fanbois bring his toxicity to other threads too, spreading the disease. Lone Justice must Stand or Fall Armed and Dangerous against The Enemy in this Gung-ho Madhouse. (While Medusa and Aftershock are no big loss, I regret not having a good way to work in A.I.R.) | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On July 08 2014 02:40 dvorakftw wrote: Words But nobody was disagreeing with the idea that Protoss is strong right now. This is not some new idea that's suddenly seen the light of day, people have been talking about this for months at ALL levels of play. It's obvious something has to be done and everyone knows that, but they disagree on what exactly that change(s) will be. What does NOT help is constant balance-whining, misinformation and inflammatory remarks regarding the situation and Protoss progamers. This kind of behavior has no purpose other than to derail the discussion and poison it with rhetoric. | ||
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Vete
Germany190 Posts
On July 08 2014 02:43 TotalBiscuit wrote: But nobody was disagreeing with the idea that Protoss is strong right now. This is not some new idea that's suddenly seen the light of day, people have been talking about this for months at ALL levels of play. It's obvious something has to be done and everyone knows that, but they disagree on what exactly that change(s) will be. What does NOT help is constant balance-whining, misinformation and inflammatory remarks regarding the situation and Protoss progamers. This kind of behavior has no purpose other than to derail the discussion and poison it with rhetoric. Well how should we solve this imbalance without influence the others matchups? Without a imba MSC we will see 'To be 4Gate, or not to be 4Gate, that is the question' the old PvP age because it is the Backbone of the current PvP (MSC = Gamedesign error) In my opinion we should patch the MSC in connection with the Nexus. Examples/suggestions: 1. Spells cost X and MSC doesn't have own Energy , it uses the Nexus Energy. -> atk of MSC will remove or cost x enrgy per animation. The reason is simple the MSC should be for the defensive and not additionally full for the offensive 2.You cannot rebuild MSC during a Timewarp/Overcharge after your old MSC was destroyed /Or running Spell will stop. + no chronoboost on MSC. You see very often ingame a terran player destroyed the MSC but it used a spell before and the protoss will chronoboost at the same nexus. After the spell finished they used it again and delayed the atk more longer or the commitment of the terran player was senseless after then because high tech units are out. 3. Timewarps should be friendly fire like tank shots. A Protoss player chases a terran army and use timewarp to slow down the army of the terran and storm its . The result is predictable it is almost impossible to split well not to mention Dodge of the storms. It prevents the offensive possibilities of the MSC. Of course the protoss still can uses his 1001 builds/all ins but with patching of MSC the Terran can punish his play. In the End we must wait for LotV or later to see Changes in the Protoss Game-/Racedesign where the true Problem lays. ~ Sry for my horrible English. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8220 Posts
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On July 08 2014 02:43 TotalBiscuit wrote: But nobody was disagreeing with the idea that Protoss is strong right now. This is not some new idea that's suddenly seen the light of day, people have been talking about this for months at ALL levels of play. It's obvious something has to be done But just like with the queen buff that led to BL/infestor, avilo gets penalized for noticing and commenting on it long before it becomes conventional wisdom. All those months in WoL when people where saying "avilo should just learn to play instead of balance whining" don't mean anything now as they repeat the same thing about TvP. Hey, avilo's right but he has a lisp and a bad mic so who needs him? What does NOT help is constant balance-whining, misinformation and inflammatory remarks regarding the situation and Protoss progamers. This kind of behavior has no purpose other than to derail the discussion and poison it with rhetoric. It's silly to suggest there is a single discussion to be derailed or that avilo makes it impossible to talk about changes to SC2. It is, however, difficult to have a discussion when one side dodges and ignores every question in favor of repeating attacks and thumping other people's bad arguments. At least I can look forward to hearing what changes Team Axiom recommend to improve the current state of balance. edit: forgot a word | ||
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