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It's silly to suggest there is a single discussion to be derailed or that avilo makes it impossible to talk about changes to SC2.
It is, however, difficult to have a discussion when one side dodges and ignores every question in favor of repeating attacks and thumping other people's bad arguments. At least I can look forward to hearing what changes Team Axiom recommend to improve the current state of balance.
You cannot seriously see the issue with how Avilo comments on balance/analyses game issues? IMO he makes nonsense conclusions based on his own weird ineffeffective playstyle, which leads to a complete exaggeration of the actual issue.
Further, I believe your rewriting history. Very few people thought Broodlord/infestor were fine in Summer 2012. It wasn't just Avilo being alone in the corner. Instead, I actually remember a generally displeaement with David Kims decision to not buff Ravens because MVP was beating a couple of random foreign zergs at a tournament.
And yes, the game was a ton worse back then, because it wasn't just super OP, but also really boring. The current state of TvX matchups are a lot more entertaining to watch.
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On July 08 2014 04:14 Hider wrote:
You cannot seriously see the issue with how Avilo comments on balance/analyses game issues?
I seriously believe it doesn't matter. People can disagree with what avilo says and how he says it. But at the end of the day the vitriol against avilo goes way beyond what avilo directs towards any one except David Kim.
Further, I believe your rewriting history. Very few people thought Broodlord/infestor were fine in Summer 2012.
The problem began with the queen buff that made Zergs too safe from any Terran build and while avilo may not have been alone, for months and months the common response to Terran complaints was "Just wait until someone figures out the new meta" which turned into waiting for HotS.
As history repeats, people end up agreeing with avilo without acknowledging it and still telling him to stop whining.
The current state of TvX matchups are a lot more entertaining to watch.
And who cares if it is still annoying as hell for Terrans to play.
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I seriously believe it doesn't matter. People can disagree with what avilo says and how he says it. But at the end of the day the vitriol against avilo goes way beyond what avilo directs towards any one except David Kim.
Well the majority once again agrees there is a balance issue and potenital fixes are being discussed. What is it exactly you want? Should casters duing WCS finals (as Avilo seems to advocate) !@#$%^&* on the game? Is that your ideal goal?
What people get annoyed over Avilo for is not that he says there is a balance issue, but the way he goes about/how he generally behaves.
The problem began with the queen buff that made Zergs too safe from any Terran build and while avilo may not have been alone, for months and months the common response to Terran complaints was "Just wait until someone figures out the new meta" which turned into waiting for HotS.
As history repeats, people end up agreeing with avilo without acknowledging it and still telling him to stop whining.
I just wrote you were mainly wrong, becasue the majority did believe that it should be patched around summer 2012. Then you just went on to bascially repeat your self without any sources/data to back your argument up.
Now ofc there are always gonna be dumb biased people who want to wait, but you cannot go around saying it was the common belief.
And further, it's completely irrelevant for the discussion. The issue in this debate is never balance, but Avilo's annoying way to get his "points" across. And since it didn't work for him in WOL, why not reevaluate how to go about it. DWF approach semeed to be effective.
Also be careful about bringing up Avilo's "track-record". Let me bring up a couple of highlights of what he has done in the past;
1) Argued in Beta with Steppes of War/LT'ish-maps, 60 damage sigee tanks and 3 range roaches that TvZ was fine. Zerg just had to learn to adapt by building Nydus's and stuff (ah the irony).
2) Argued that after tank-nerf in early WOL that terran was forced to 2rax all in because late game was unplayable (turned out that terran still was favored in the late game as MVP later on demonstrated).
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On July 08 2014 04:59 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 04:14 Hider wrote:
You cannot seriously see the issue with how Avilo comments on balance/analyses game issues? I seriously believe it doesn't matter. People can disagree with what avilo says and how he says it. But at the end of the day the vitriol against avilo goes way beyond what avilo directs towards any one except David Kim. Show nested quote +Further, I believe your rewriting history. Very few people thought Broodlord/infestor were fine in Summer 2012. The problem began with the queen buff that made Zergs too safe from any Terran build and while avilo may not have been alone, for months and months the common response to Terran complaints was "Just wait until someone figures out the new meta" which turned into waiting for HotS. As history repeats, people end up agreeing with avilo without acknowledging it and still telling him to stop whining. And who cares if it is still annoying as hell for Terrans to play.
Whine whine whine. Call an opponent who's winning "stupid" and comment on how they don't know how to play. Seriously, I used to watch Avilo a lot when he was less popular. His stream has gotten so damn whiny and full of vitriol towards his opponents. He styles himself some sort of a champion of Terrans, he really gives us all the bad name.
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On July 08 2014 04:00 geokilla wrote:
Why do people even argue with TotalBiscuit? >.>
BC he is the angry brit that also can be the funny brit, but what I like most is, when he is both at the same time (but... I do like it when he is angry about stupid games, not stupid posts)
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On July 08 2014 06:21 Hider wrote:
Well the majority once again agrees there is a balance issue and potenital fixes are being discussed.
They agree now. But even less than two weeks ago Blizzard was saying they thought Premier balance was looking good and there were no plans for any changes. Then a few more Protoss wins and months of telling avilo to learn to play are conveniently forgotten and everyone skips over admitting avilo was right.
What is it exactly you want?
First, the changes to improve the balance and game design to actually be implemented.. Second, a million dollars. Third, world peace.
Should casters duing WCS finals (as Avilo seems to advocate) !@#$%^&* on the game? Is that your ideal goal?
Personally, I understand the need of casters to ignore problems and to hype regardless. But it would be nice if the analysis both during and between games were a bit more honest.
What people get annoyed over Avilo for is not that he says there is a balance issue, but the way he goes about/how he generally behaves.
And that's fine. avilo complains. People complain about avilo complaining. Supporters complain about complaining about avilo complaining. It's the circle of life. The important thing is we have now definitively moved past the point of saying Protoss and Terran are fine to agreement that changes are needed and they should come sooner rather than later. As a mod in avilo's chat I can tell you even just a week ago people were claiming Terrans simply needed to play more like TaeJa.
I just wrote you were mainly wrong, becasue the majority did believe that it should be patched around summer 2012.
And the Queen buff happened in February 2012. Is February part of the summer of 2012? If February is a month in the summer of 2012 then you win. Otherwise my point remains; avilo correctly analyzed the problem of that Zerg buff months before most of the rest of the community caught up after saying avilo and other Terrans just needed to play better and develop a new meta. Now, once again, the community is finally catching up to what avilo has been saying all along about HotS Protoss.
Just think of all the trouble that could have been avoided if people had listened to avilo in HotS beta when he said the photon overcharge was a terrible band-aid solution that doesn't require skill and a better fix to early game Protoss should be found.
The issue in this debate is never balance, but Avilo's annoying way to get his "points" across. And since it didn't work for him in WOL, why not reevaluate how to go about it. DWF approach semeed to be effective.
avilo is infamous for long-winded posts in Blizzard's now-closed Pro message board forum so advocating a return to what already didn't work isn't very convincing. As far as "annoying" goes, that's an opinion and you are welcome to it. Not everyone appreciates the same things. Wise people however are able to separate opinion from objective fact so even if you don't like how avilo expresses himself you should still be able to recognize the validity of his claims.
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On July 08 2014 04:00 geokilla wrote:
Why do people even argue with TotalBiscuit? >.>
because he's there? like any other recognizable person on the internet?
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On July 08 2014 08:00 dvorakftw wrote:
And the Queen buff happened in February 2012. Is February part of the summer of 2012? If February is a month in the summer of 2012 then you win. Otherwise my point remains; avilo correctly analyzed the problem of that Zerg buff months before most of the rest of the community caught up after saying avilo and other Terrans just needed to play better and develop a new meta. Now, once again, the community is finally catching up to what avilo has been saying all along about HotS Protoss.
This is an absurd argument. If you complain about everything at all times, of course you will have been among the first to complain about things that were actually flawed. For your argument to be worth anything, you need to demonstrate that avilo's accurate predictions outweigh his inaccurate predictions by a significant margin.
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And the Queen buff happened in February 2012. Is February part of the summer of 2012? If February is a month in the summer of 2012 then you win. Otherwise my point remains; avilo correctly analyzed the problem of that Zerg buff months before most of the rest of the community caught up after saying avilo and other Terrans just needed to play better and develop a new meta. Now, once again, the community is finally catching up to what avilo has been saying all along about HotS Protoss.
Source on where Avilo predicted the Queen buff would make Zerg safe early game --> Giving them a too easy time going into Infestor/Broodlord. And no, what I am looking for here is not just a comment that it became easier for zerg to reflect terran aggression, but rather how it would lead to a lot more broodlord/infestor.
And what I am looking for here is not comments from him during the Summer 2012 or later.
They agree now. But even less than two weeks ago Blizzard was saying they thought Premier balance was looking good and there were no plans for any changes. Then a few more Protoss wins and months of telling avilo to learn to play are conveniently forgotten and everyone skips over admitting avilo was right.
Yes thanks to DWF. As it turns out, it makes sense to make big long articles that adds as many arguments as possible. What doesn't seem to be working is Avilo's way of whining.
Just think of all the trouble that could have been avoided if people had listened to avilo in HotS beta when he said the photon overcharge was a terrible band-aid solution that doesn't require skill and a better fix to early game Protoss should be found.
Source on him exactly predicting how the additiona of the MSc would impact the metagame?
EDIT: I actually just spent 5-10 minutes looking through some of his post histories. This guy has one of the worst track-records I have ever seen actually. Every single prediction/comment he has made on units (where it wasn't generally agreed upon anyway) has basically turned out wrong. Serisouly, do yourself a favor and go through his posts history and I believe you will change your opinion of him.
Here is just one of many many examples: Post snipe nerf, Avilo talks about how terran is a dead race, can't win TvP late game. Now that is problematic as he later on in HOTS admitted that terran actually was actually good in late game in WOL and (clearly giving the context) implying that terran is good in HOTS late game TvP as well., but it's early game that is problematic. That's even more problematic as it's actually straight up wrong: Terran isn't good late game TvP in HOTS.
Here is another one (after Widow Mine got it's "buff" during HOTS beta).
but 40 seconds reload time is too long right now...way too long. I hope they started the value at 40 seconds just as a control variable and adjust it lower from there.
Ok, it's been in the game 1 day. These things are no where near OP, it's basically the opposite
And another another one (after Hellbats got biological tag and thus became pretty imbalance
TvZ bio flag adds nothing to the battle hellion because if you're going mech you don't build medivacs for the purpose of healing units. So it does nothing here. And once again, if you're going bio TvZ...at best you'd have 3/0 or 0/3 battle hellions that you can't micro vs banelings with your bio because they're slow.
So...TvZ bio flag adds nothing. TvP it nerfs mech. TvT is the same as TvZ/TvP mech - you don't build medivacs with mech, you build vikings/ravens, so it adds nothing to TvT mech either.
This is actually pretty entertaining to read his comments.  But to conclude, Avilo is almost always wrong. And somewhat ironically, he is even wrong when terran infact is underpowered.
avilo is infamous for long-winded posts in Blizzard's now-closed Pro message board forum so advocating a return to what already didn't work isn't very convincing. As far as "annoying" goes, that's an opinion and you are welcome to it. Not everyone appreciates the same things. Wise people however are able to separate opinion from objective fact so even if you don't like how avilo expresses himself you should still be able to recognize the validity of his claims.
Why are you even discussing this? Most people including do not think protoss is ok or that TvZ bio is fine. And yes once against you can always find the occational biased guy, but you can never get a 100% agreement across the board.
So yes we are completely capable of seperating those issues as there isn't a fundamental disagreement in that regard. The only reason Avilo gets so much hate is through his behaviour. So if he doens't wanna be made fun of as much, but wants to be taken serious (such as what happened to DWF), he could choose to change his approach.
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On July 08 2014 08:00 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 06:21 Hider wrote:
Well the majority once again agrees there is a balance issue and potenital fixes are being discussed. They agree now. But even less than two weeks ago Blizzard was saying they thought Premier balance was looking good and there were no plans for any changes. Then a few more Protoss wins and months of telling avilo to learn to play are conveniently forgotten and everyone skips over admitting avilo was right. First, the changes to improve the balance and game design to actually be implemented.. Second, a million dollars. Third, world peace. Show nested quote +Should casters duing WCS finals (as Avilo seems to advocate) !@#$%^&* on the game? Is that your ideal goal? Personally, I understand the need of casters to ignore problems and to hype regardless. But it would be nice if the analysis both during and between games were a bit more honest. Show nested quote +What people get annoyed over Avilo for is not that he says there is a balance issue, but the way he goes about/how he generally behaves. And that's fine. avilo complains. People complain about avilo complaining. Supporters complain about complaining about avilo complaining. It's the circle of life. The important thing is we have now definitively moved past the point of saying Protoss and Terran are fine to agreement that changes are needed and they should come sooner rather than later. As a mod in avilo's chat I can tell you even just a week ago people were claiming Terrans simply needed to play more like TaeJa. Show nested quote +I just wrote you were mainly wrong, becasue the majority did believe that it should be patched around summer 2012. And the Queen buff happened in February 2012. Is February part of the summer of 2012? If February is a month in the summer of 2012 then you win. Otherwise my point remains; avilo correctly analyzed the problem of that Zerg buff months before most of the rest of the community caught up after saying avilo and other Terrans just needed to play better and develop a new meta. Now, once again, the community is finally catching up to what avilo has been saying all along about HotS Protoss. Just think of all the trouble that could have been avoided if people had listened to avilo in HotS beta when he said the photon overcharge was a terrible band-aid solution that doesn't require skill and a better fix to early game Protoss should be found. Show nested quote +The issue in this debate is never balance, but Avilo's annoying way to get his "points" across. And since it didn't work for him in WOL, why not reevaluate how to go about it. DWF approach semeed to be effective. avilo is infamous for long-winded posts in Blizzard's now-closed Pro message board forum so advocating a return to what already didn't work isn't very convincing. As far as "annoying" goes, that's an opinion and you are welcome to it. Not everyone appreciates the same things. Wise people however are able to separate opinion from objective fact so even if you don't like how avilo expresses himself you should still be able to recognize the validity of his claims.
You make it seem like avilo's somehow the oracle for all of Terran's weaknesses (hah, oracle, weakness...), that he's seen the effects of patches and the metagame with a certain foresight ahead of all others. I call bullshit on this, as his complaints have been pored over about as long as he's been around, sometimes before he's had a word in it. You're almost chicken-and-egging his status, implying him to have been the first to complain, and not him picking up on the complaints others had held at just about the same time (not without reason, of course). Non-avilo people have complained about the queen buff when it happened; non-avilo people complained about photon overcharge and time warp and swarm hosts and all of those good stuff when they first appeared.
Again, you seem to forget that people are behind these screens, both ways. Having an abrasive argument doesn't mean the computer is going to spit back a logical response like Spock. Likewise, if his attitude is sparking debates like this very one more than debates about the issues of mech, shouldn't that be a red flag that the methods aren't exactly working?
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When did these LR's become r/starcraft?
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On July 08 2014 08:18 Hider wrote:
Source on where Avilo predicted the Queen buff would make Zerg safe early game
Source on him exactly predicting how the additiona of the MSc would impact the metagame?
Listening to his stream. But no I won't go through VoDs from 2012 and early 2013 if Twitch even has them to prove it to you.
Post snipe nerf, Avilo talks about how terran is a dead race, can't win TvP late game.
Short lesson in rhetoric. There is a technique known as hyperbole. Even without seeing the actual quote it's easy to tell that this not meant literally as in no matter what there is nothing any Terran could ever do to beat any Protoss. The definition of imbalance is not that one side always wins and the other side always loses but rather that one side has to work harder than the other to have a chance to win.
It's amusing to see this considering just a few hours ago avilo on stream discussed how some people will always take his satire completely serious and his serious comments as jokes.
But to stick to the point of how Terran did in WoL after the queen buff... we have three wins from TaeJa, Mvp's next-to-last win (against Nerchio) and Sting defeating Grubby. Well heck, that's healthier than Terran has been in 2014 so take that, avilo!
Likewise I imagine if we into the details of past avilo comments we'd find plenty of context to explain things there as well. I can already tell from the comment about hellbat upgrades that it would be before the buff that combined air and ground and I still haven't seen anyone give a reason for being biological that outweighs the advantages of keeping it mechanical.
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On July 08 2014 08:33 Spect8rCraft wrote:
Non-avilo people have complained about the queen buff when it happened; non-avilo people complained about photon overcharge and time warp and swarm hosts and all of those good stuff when they first appeared.
Again, you seem to forget that people are behind these screens, both ways. Having an abrasive argument doesn't mean the computer is going to spit back a logical response like Spock. Likewise, if his attitude is sparking debates like this very one more than debates about the issues of mech, shouldn't that be a red flag that the methods aren't exactly working?
Hmmm, queen buff stayed. Photon overcharge stayed. Swarm hosts stayed. Mech is still awful against Protoss. It's almost like it doesn't even matter what we say or do. Or are you telling us all of this is because of avilo?
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On July 08 2014 10:19 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 08:33 Spect8rCraft wrote:
Non-avilo people have complained about the queen buff when it happened; non-avilo people complained about photon overcharge and time warp and swarm hosts and all of those good stuff when they first appeared.
Again, you seem to forget that people are behind these screens, both ways. Having an abrasive argument doesn't mean the computer is going to spit back a logical response like Spock. Likewise, if his attitude is sparking debates like this very one more than debates about the issues of mech, shouldn't that be a red flag that the methods aren't exactly working? Hmmm, queen buff stayed. Photon overcharge stayed. Swarm hosts stayed. Mech is still awful against Protoss. It's almost like it doesn't even matter what we say or do. Or are you telling us all of this is because of avilo?
That makes about as much sense as saying everyone elses' voices on his side of the fence don't matter either. All I'm saying is that avilo's not the only bright (sometimes blinding) spark who's considered the consequences, and more often, detriments, of patches and other changes; others, many others, have made similar cries, and that you've only heard avilo's call doesn't make him the first to cry wolf.
And geez, it's like you're pulling every wrong in the argument book. The correlation vs. causation clause, really? How you are trying to make a causal connection between change or the lack thereof with his eloquence or lack thereof is beyond me.
The fact of the matter is that you're still missing the argument. Very few people disagree with avilo's intentions, however spearheaded they are. Some will say they don't want mech because it's boring, sure. Others just don't like Terran, that's their bias. But there are loads of fellows out there who do want to break out of the Terran bio-mold, among other things. Hell, even I'd like to see a few changes here and there about mech, maybe a buff for the BC, and preferably a nerf to the raven after watching that TvT avilo played.
People on the Internet are people. Trolls, nerds, hipsters, businesspersons, sponsors, whatever. They have emotions, they have feelings, they are prone to fits every now and again. And if one cannot account for "human error" in his or her oration, one's not going to make as convincing or persuasive an argument. Communications 101. It's fine to add a bit of razzle-dazzle to an argument, but if the hyperbole gets too far, hypocrisy gets too real, professionalism cracks, one stands to make a poor argument, no matter the facts and figures (just ask politicians; just ask TB). To ignore the "how" is to misunderstand how Blizzard will interpret us, and they've shown that they can be quite receptive to changes if presented properly.
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On July 08 2014 08:48 showstealer1829 wrote:
When did these LR's become r/starcraft?
Apparently Avilo poisons every thread he's brought up in.
I'll at least admit to the mistake of mentioning him in the first place.
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On July 08 2014 11:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 08:48 showstealer1829 wrote:
When did these LR's become r/starcraft? Apparently Avilo poisons every thread he's brought up in. I'll at least admit to the mistake of mentioning him in the first place.
Never seen his stream but reading it all it seems both sides are subscribing to the great prophet..."Weird" Al Yankovic. Who taught us all
Everything you know is wrong
Black is white, up is down and short is long
And everything you thought was just so
Important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong
Just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is
Everything you know is wrong
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EPT
