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On October 23 2013 05:19 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 05:16 mcc wrote:On October 23 2013 05:14 SafeAsCheese wrote:On October 23 2013 05:13 mcc wrote:Also I think he should have done what Socke suggested, sat on top of his ramp with 200/200 army, forcfields and 10k gas bank. The game would be like 15hrs and SC2 would actually become real sport as weak players would die  If I hosted a tourney and players did that, I would disqualify both of them for making no attempt to end it. Frankly at that point I think protoss by doing that is doing his best to achieve best possible result - draw. There is no reasonable argument for punishing that. I doubt there is any way that protoss can actually win if game is at that stage. Like in chess, if you can't win, play for draw. Except firezerg was able to win by siege hoping his swarm hosts and doing a muta remax. He made no attempt to that game. In his position, I would have won a few hours ago. There has almost never been a point in SC2 where neither player can win due to infinite defense on both sides. firezerg had the perfect defense that game, mana did not, he was quite weak to be honest
How are you going to use SH against forcefields on the ramp ? How are you going to lose enough units to do effective muta switch without risking loss ? How are you going to use your muta remax against archon/storm/guardian/tempest ?
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fatigued? He probably sat there and jerked it for 2 hours occasionally moving his ball of units around
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On October 23 2013 05:23 SafeAsCheese wrote:
fatigued? He probably sat there and jerked it for 2 hours occasionally moving his ball of units around
Your comment still applies if none of it is taken to refer to Starcraft.
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On October 23 2013 05:23 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 05:19 SafeAsCheese wrote:On October 23 2013 05:16 mcc wrote:On October 23 2013 05:14 SafeAsCheese wrote:On October 23 2013 05:13 mcc wrote:Also I think he should have done what Socke suggested, sat on top of his ramp with 200/200 army, forcfields and 10k gas bank. The game would be like 15hrs and SC2 would actually become real sport as weak players would die If I hosted a tourney and players did that, I would disqualify both of them for making no attempt to end it. Frankly at that point I think protoss by doing that is doing his best to achieve best possible result - draw. There is no reasonable argument for punishing that. I doubt there is any way that protoss can actually win if game is at that stage. Like in chess, if you can't win, play for draw. Except firezerg was able to win by siege hoping his swarm hosts and doing a muta remax. He made no attempt to that game. In his position, I would have won a few hours ago. There has almost never been a point in SC2 where neither player can win due to infinite defense on both sides. firezerg had the perfect defense that game, mana did not, he was quite weak to be honest How are you going to use SH against forcefields on the ramp ? How are you going to lose enough units to do effective muta switch without risking loss ? How are you going to use your muta remax against archon/storm/guardian/tempest ?
Very slowly. Zerg has tools to break any defense (see : the viper)
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On October 23 2013 05:21 Vanadiel wrote:
Akilon is the only map that allow games like this one to be honest. And as stupid as it was as a game, this playstyle is the only way to stop the evenly stupid Skytoss.
Works on every map tbh, since Zerg can move from base to base. Akilon just allows to get there almost effortlessly.
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On October 23 2013 05:20 unigolyn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 05:14 mcc wrote:On October 23 2013 05:13 unigolyn wrote:On October 23 2013 05:11 mcc wrote:On October 23 2013 05:09 unigolyn wrote:On October 23 2013 05:08 Heartland wrote:
@mouzMaNa 1m
Blizzard. Your move. So that was basically a three-hour balance whine? Design whine, not balance I would say. He can always just all-in all games as it was in WoL and I think he can get to close to balanced situation. The game doesn't need to be balanced for mined-out late games. I just said that it is not about balance, but about design. Why are you replying with balance ? Because saying "design" instead of "balance" is like saying "Intelligent Design" instead of "creationism". Your point is not that the game is badly designed, your point is that Mana couldn't win against late game Swarm Hosts. That is a balance complaint. In this ideally designed game, all armies would be equally matched in the super late game. 99% of games don't get to that point, so it's pointless to design to that. The "point" Mana was attempting to make was an exercise in idiocy, as far as I'm concerned.
No, there is difference between design and balance. SH are stupidly designed unit, period. If Mana won by some miracle, it would still be true. Plus you can have balanced matchup, yet valid design concerns. If Protoss can achieve 50% winrate by appropriate mixing in of all-ins, it is balanced matchup, but can still be stupidly designed matchup.
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On October 23 2013 05:24 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 05:21 Vanadiel wrote:
Akilon is the only map that allow games like this one to be honest. And as stupid as it was as a game, this playstyle is the only way to stop the evenly stupid Skytoss. Works on every map tbh, since Zerg can move from base to base. Akilon just allows to get there almost effortlessly.
You can circumvent the swarm hosts and the static def on other maps. Protecting outlying expansions is incredibly hard for zerg on some maps with this comp.
Akilon is just a bad map overall, basically any map where zerg gets a cluster of 4-5 easy bases where they reach either approach with locusts is just begging for this sort of play. If it works, it's almost a free win for zerg.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 23 2013 05:24 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 05:21 Vanadiel wrote:
Akilon is the only map that allow games like this one to be honest. And as stupid as it was as a game, this playstyle is the only way to stop the evenly stupid Skytoss. Works on every map tbh, since Zerg can move from base to base. Akilon just allows to get there almost effortlessly.
SHs are mobile, but not THAT mobile. Same with static d, festors and gglords.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
I enjoyed it almost as much as that 100-minute farmfest at TI3
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On October 23 2013 05:22 unigolyn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 05:15 rasnj wrote:On October 23 2013 05:13 unigolyn wrote:On October 23 2013 05:11 mcc wrote:On October 23 2013 05:09 unigolyn wrote:On October 23 2013 05:08 Heartland wrote:
@mouzMaNa 1m
Blizzard. Your move. So that was basically a three-hour balance whine? Design whine, not balance I would say. He can always just all-in all games as it was in WoL and I think he can get to close to balanced situation. The game doesn't need to be balanced for mined-out late games. It probably should. Otherwise the race with imbalanced late game units will aim to get to the late game. See for instance late WoL where zergs were trying to get to broodlord infestor, or early WoL where PvZ had protoss trying to get a deathball and then just roll out. As long as it's possible to stop them from getting to that point, who cares?
People who watch the game and want it to be fun. That is why I said, it is not about balance.
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come on Mana, I want to see ultra-lategame PvP now
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On October 23 2013 05:28 Zealously wrote:
I enjoyed it almost as much as that 100-minute farmfest at TI3
We all know you made a deal with the devil and sold your soul long ago.
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On October 23 2013 05:28 Zealously wrote:
that 100-minute farmfest at TI3
what was that ?
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On October 23 2013 05:24 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 05:23 mcc wrote:On October 23 2013 05:19 SafeAsCheese wrote:On October 23 2013 05:16 mcc wrote:On October 23 2013 05:14 SafeAsCheese wrote:On October 23 2013 05:13 mcc wrote:Also I think he should have done what Socke suggested, sat on top of his ramp with 200/200 army, forcfields and 10k gas bank. The game would be like 15hrs and SC2 would actually become real sport as weak players would die If I hosted a tourney and players did that, I would disqualify both of them for making no attempt to end it. Frankly at that point I think protoss by doing that is doing his best to achieve best possible result - draw. There is no reasonable argument for punishing that. I doubt there is any way that protoss can actually win if game is at that stage. Like in chess, if you can't win, play for draw. Except firezerg was able to win by siege hoping his swarm hosts and doing a muta remax. He made no attempt to that game. In his position, I would have won a few hours ago. There has almost never been a point in SC2 where neither player can win due to infinite defense on both sides. firezerg had the perfect defense that game, mana did not, he was quite weak to be honest How are you going to use SH against forcefields on the ramp ? How are you going to lose enough units to do effective muta switch without risking loss ? How are you going to use your muta remax against archon/storm/guardian/tempest ? Very slowly. Zerg has tools to break any defense (see : the viper)
And as I pointed out, yes, FireCake would have won, but it would not be 3 hours, more like 6+.
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On October 23 2013 05:26 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 05:20 unigolyn wrote:On October 23 2013 05:14 mcc wrote:On October 23 2013 05:13 unigolyn wrote:On October 23 2013 05:11 mcc wrote:On October 23 2013 05:09 unigolyn wrote:On October 23 2013 05:08 Heartland wrote:
@mouzMaNa 1m
Blizzard. Your move. So that was basically a three-hour balance whine? Design whine, not balance I would say. He can always just all-in all games as it was in WoL and I think he can get to close to balanced situation. The game doesn't need to be balanced for mined-out late games. I just said that it is not about balance, but about design. Why are you replying with balance ? Because saying "design" instead of "balance" is like saying "Intelligent Design" instead of "creationism". Your point is not that the game is badly designed, your point is that Mana couldn't win against late game Swarm Hosts. That is a balance complaint. In this ideally designed game, all armies would be equally matched in the super late game. 99% of games don't get to that point, so it's pointless to design to that. The "point" Mana was attempting to make was an exercise in idiocy, as far as I'm concerned. No, there is difference between design and balance. SH are stupidly designed unit, period. If Mana won by some miracle, it would still be true. Plus you can have balanced matchup, yet valid design concerns. If Protoss can achieve 50% winrate by appropriate mixing in of all-ins, it is balanced matchup, but can still be stupidly designed matchup.
Balance whine doesn't mean complaining that there's not a 50% winrate. Balance whining means complaining that race X is overpowered.
Why are SH a stupidly designed unit? Obviously the comp Firecake was on was pretty much unbeatable, but why did Mana let him get to that point?
I just don't see most PvZ's ending up in SH stalemates.
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Poll: Recommend Final Match Game 1?★ - Do not see this game no matter what (3) 75% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1) 25% ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0) 0% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0) 0% ★★★ - Good game (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Recommend Final Match Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 23 2013 05:30 oGoZenob wrote:what was that ?
The game where divine rapier was actually used. Also, game with 12 slot Burning.
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Blizzard should send a Hearthstone key to every viewer who watched the game.
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On October 23 2013 05:28 Zealously wrote:
I enjoyed it almost as much as that 100-minute farmfest at TI3
But I thought Dota 2 was all aggressive and stuff and farmfests only existed in LoL.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 23 2013 05:35 XaCez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 05:28 Zealously wrote:
I enjoyed it almost as much as that 100-minute farmfest at TI3 But I thought Dota 2 was all aggressive and stuff and farmfests only existed in LoL.
That's a myth
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EPT
