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Stop the balance whining please. |
On August 12 2013 12:16 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:13 goody153 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:05 Ammanas wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 11:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 11:54 bigbadgreen wrote:
why does marine still scale so hard with upgrades now that there are mines? in WOL I can understand why, but not in HOTS. All base-mineral units scale well with upgrades. Zerglings and zealots benefit greatly as well. Yes. What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. The main issue in the current TvZ metagame is that zerg has not figured out their proper hive timing and swarm hosts are utterly useless against bio-mine. Are they? As a protoss player - I thought in theory they are basically perfect counter to the mines themselves (well, BLs are, bou can get SHs easier). Just tank mines with free units and then kill the rest with ling/baneling. In theory you're right. In practice they aren't because of the kind of micro it takes to control them for the specific purpose of countering widow mines. Factor in the relatively poor speed of the Swarm Host as an added problem. TvZ if you haven't noticed is played VERY VERY fast, units that lack mobility like Tanks/Thors/Broodlords/Swarm Hosts and even at times Infestors have a really hard time finding their way into the metagame because their mobility becomes a huge problem. the swarmhost has almost no synergy in zvt .. locusts are too slow .. i may be wrong but i have not seen anyone successfully incorporating swarmhosts vs bio-mine terran in the highest levels .. and yes zergs havent figured out the hive timing Swarm Hosts have about as much synergy with the current meta as Thors and Siege Tanks do. The match up as a whole lacks diversity, it's on both sides of the aisle. Terrans field strictly bio/mine not just because it's a strong unit comp but also because the race lacks any kind of alternative composition that works at all in complement with Bio. Zerg as a response is fielding units that are only produced with the expressed purpose of dealing with Bio/Mine. It's a vicious cycle.
Siege Tanks still have their place. Standard, eco-heavy Bio/Mine opening is usually 3cc, so some Zergs try to counter that with a Roach/Baneling bust. If a Terran scouts it, then Siege Tanks are better than Widow Mines against Roaches.
Thors IN GENERAL seem to lack a place in the meta outside of TvT air battles.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Am I the only one who finds the hundredth bio-mine vs lingblingmuta game boring? I mean after watching Innovation vs Soulkey do it several times now, it's hard to get excited for another one by equal or lesser players.
Tbh I prefer PvZ just because of build variety. Even PvP is more interesting to me now, ewww.
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On August 12 2013 12:20 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:13 goody153 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:05 Ammanas wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 11:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 11:54 bigbadgreen wrote:
why does marine still scale so hard with upgrades now that there are mines? in WOL I can understand why, but not in HOTS. All base-mineral units scale well with upgrades. Zerglings and zealots benefit greatly as well. Yes. What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. The main issue in the current TvZ metagame is that zerg has not figured out their proper hive timing and swarm hosts are utterly useless against bio-mine. Are they? As a protoss player - I thought in theory they are basically perfect counter to the mines themselves (well, BLs are, bou can get SHs easier). Just tank mines with free units and then kill the rest with ling/baneling. In theory you're right. In practice they aren't because of the kind of micro it takes to control them for the specific purpose of countering widow mines. Factor in the relatively poor speed of the Swarm Host as an added problem. TvZ if you haven't noticed is played VERY VERY fast, units that lack mobility like Tanks/Thors/Broodlords/Swarm Hosts and even at times Infestors have a really hard time finding their way into the metagame because their mobility becomes a huge problem. the swarmhost has almost no synergy in zvt .. locusts are too slow .. i may be wrong but i have not seen anyone successfully incorporating swarmhosts vs bio-mine terran in the highest levels .. and yes zergs havent figured out the hive timing The match up as a whole lacks diversity, it's on both sides of the aisle. Terrans field strictly bio/mine not just because it's a strong unit comp but also because the race lacks any kind of alternative composition that works at all in complement with Bio. Zerg as a response is fielding units that are only produced with the expressed purpose of dealing with Bio/Mine. It's a vicious cycle. I don't think zerg lacks diversity in the matchup. Not intentionally. I've seen swarmhosts, infestors, muta/ling, roach/hydra, quick hives and roach busts and baneling busts and whatnot, it's just that so few things are good vs bio/mine that it severely limits zergs options.
Does not compute.
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On August 12 2013 12:18 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:13 goody153 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:05 Ammanas wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 11:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 11:54 bigbadgreen wrote:
why does marine still scale so hard with upgrades now that there are mines? in WOL I can understand why, but not in HOTS. All base-mineral units scale well with upgrades. Zerglings and zealots benefit greatly as well. Yes. What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. The main issue in the current TvZ metagame is that zerg has not figured out their proper hive timing and swarm hosts are utterly useless against bio-mine. Are they? As a protoss player - I thought in theory they are basically perfect counter to the mines themselves (well, BLs are, bou can get SHs easier). Just tank mines with free units and then kill the rest with ling/baneling. In theory you're right. In practice they aren't because of the kind of micro it takes to control them for the specific purpose of countering widow mines. Factor in the relatively poor speed of the Swarm Host as an added problem. TvZ if you haven't noticed is played VERY VERY fast, units that lack mobility like Tanks/Thors/Broodlords/Swarm Hosts and even at times Infestors have a really hard time finding their way into the metagame because their mobility becomes a huge problem. the swarmhost has almost no synergy in zvt .. locusts are too slow .. i may be wrong but i have not seen anyone successfully incorporating swarmhosts vs bio-mine terran in the highest levels .. and yes zergs havent figured out the hive timing Swarm Hosts have about as much synergy with the current meta as Thors and Siege Tanks do. The match up as a whole lacks diversity, it's on both sides of the aisle. Terrans field strictly bio/mine not just because it's a strong unit comp but also because the race lacks any kind of alternative composition that works at all in complement with Bio. Zerg as a response is fielding units that are only produced with the expressed purpose of dealing with Bio/Mine. It's a vicious cycle. Siege tanks are actually still really good against zerg. People just don't make them because with widow mines, you don't have to worry so much about replenishing them when caught off-guard.
It isn't just that Widow Mines are better, it's also that tanks are MUCH weaker in the late game than Widow Mines are.
Think about it, Widow Mines are leaps and bounds better vs every Hive Tech unit than Siege Tanks. Siege Tanks are countered hard by both Broodlords and Vipers and are soft countered somewhat by Ultralisks.
Factor that in with their increased cost, and weaker mobility and it is no surprise at all that no one is using them except as defensive tools in the early and midgame.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:15 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:12 BigFan wrote:On August 12 2013 12:08 theking1 wrote:
another fan favourite taken out by somebody else.I really do not know how this dude claims to be studying english in the USA,He has the fluency of a romanian second grader.Really you learn better english from watching movies and cartoons.Dunno what professors he has at the university but I guess oral examinations are not a must.I really wanted jd to win.He has had to many silver finishes.And he just abuses marines and widow mines. please tell me you're joking. Why so harsh? I think his english is great and it keeps getting better and better. I'm sure his vocabulary is bigger than most people realize but he just doesn't have the verbal aspect done tight but that comes with practice. Polt is the most awesome SCII player imo! Dude he majors in ENGLISH at UNIVERSITY level.At UNIVERSITY levels you are supposed to write 20 page long essays using advanced english and read entire books from one week to another.Polt literally is not proficient in oral English.i have never seen his essays or anything else from him but he can not express himself in English.he says one phrase mostly a subject and a predicate and that is it.I could speak better English than him in the 7th grade,How did this dude pass the Toefl Oral requirement.You can not get into uni in the USA without Toefl.He is bad at English considering he majors in it.
They are taught english at a young age in Korean school according to what I read. What they aren't taught is the verbal aspect so it's quite possible he can write well but he's working on developing the verbal aspect. That and I understand what he was saying just fine so I dunno what you're on about. Yes, there is an accent there but its not as bad as people claim it to be. I can't say much on how he passed the toefl oral requirement but one thing I'm confident about is that he's a pretty smart guy. Biomedical engineering or biomedical w/e it was that he did in Korea is not an easy subject. He only started university a couple of months back so I would give him more time.
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On August 12 2013 12:15 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:12 BigFan wrote:On August 12 2013 12:08 theking1 wrote:
another fan favourite taken out by somebody else.I really do not know how this dude claims to be studying english in the USA,He has the fluency of a romanian second grader.Really you learn better english from watching movies and cartoons.Dunno what professors he has at the university but I guess oral examinations are not a must.I really wanted jd to win.He has had to many silver finishes.And he just abuses marines and widow mines. please tell me you're joking. Why so harsh? I think his english is great and it keeps getting better and better. I'm sure his vocabulary is bigger than most people realize but he just doesn't have the verbal aspect done tight but that comes with practice. Polt is the most awesome SCII player imo! Dude he majors in ENGLISH at UNIVERSITY level.At UNIVERSITY levels you are supposed to write 20 page long essays using advanced english and read entire books from one week to another.Polt literally is not proficient in oral English.i have never seen his essays or anything else from him but he can not express himself in English.he says one phrase mostly a subject and a predicate and that is it.I could speak better English than him in the 7th grade,How did this dude pass the Toefl Oral requirement.You can not get into uni in the USA without Toefl.He is bad at English considering he majors in it.
He may not be able to speak perfect English, but I bet his life is like 100x better than your sorry one. He can probably write a better essay than you. Are you even in or went to college? Have you made as much money as he has this year? What have YOU done with your life lately? Sad.
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On August 12 2013 12:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:15 bigbadgreen wrote:On August 12 2013 12:13 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:10 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 11:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 11:54 bigbadgreen wrote:
why does marine still scale so hard with upgrades now that there are mines? in WOL I can understand why, but not in HOTS. All base-mineral units scale well with upgrades. Zerglings and zealots benefit greatly as well. Yes. What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. They also have Stim, which compounds the upgrades even more. Similar to how Adrenal Glands compound to help Zergling upgrades. Or Charge compounds Zealots. Metabolic Boost also greatly adds to the power of Lings late game although that's pretty much a given. Charge and Metabolic Boost helps Zerglings and Zealots get in to just inflict their DPS. Charge and Meta Boost does not actually have an effect on DPS like Adrenal Glands and Stim. It also improves their Mobility, which Stim also does, albeit with the cost of Health. Medivacs not only help mitigate that HP loss, but their healing also combos well with the Defensive upgrades. Stim actually accomplishes the same thing for Marines that charge and metabolic boost does for Zealots and Zerglings when you stop to think about it. How hard would it be to keep Marines alive without the added mobility that stim provides? How hard would it be to chase down Mutas? Stim does add the extra DPS but its also the only of the upgrades for tier 1 units that has a drawback in the form of health cost that requires Medivacs to heal. so get rid of damage from stim but make marines fight with knives instead of rifles? j/k. I just think with the range and medi support marines are the best tier 1, and Z isn't able to get out anything to deal with mines on the field. The thing about starcraft is that there's 3 races. So even if for some hypothetical reason we wanted to tone down Marines vs Zerg, there'd be no way to do that without dooming the race vs Protoss because Marines are just as important there as they are vs Zerg. The problem if there is one with the current match ups is two fold. 1. Bio is strong. 2. Everything Terran has that is NOT Bio is weak. You can't address one without addressing the other.
#1 is correct but i think #2 is wrong .. i think other options are as just good just unexplored because no other option probably is better than bio .. i mean why would anyone bother to use anything that is not bio .. if bio itself is proven to be very powerful and safe
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On August 12 2013 12:22 lichter wrote:
Am I the only one who finds the hundredth bio-mine vs lingblingmuta game boring? I mean after watching Innovation vs Soulkey do it several times now, it's hard to get excited for another one by equal or lesser players.
Tbh I prefer PvZ just because of build variety. Even PvP is more interesting to me now, ewww.
PvP is fun because it's fking wild, I just think it'll be immensely boring if it gets standardized.
Well TvZ... i just want some more opening in the early game, the mid game is still pretty cool and action packed, players like Polt going for a frontal assault all day are a bit more boring than multitasking beast but still it's nice. especially when the T wins at the end :p
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On August 12 2013 12:21 mcmartini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:15 theking1 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:12 BigFan wrote:On August 12 2013 12:08 theking1 wrote:
another fan favourite taken out by somebody else.I really do not know how this dude claims to be studying english in the USA,He has the fluency of a romanian second grader.Really you learn better english from watching movies and cartoons.Dunno what professors he has at the university but I guess oral examinations are not a must.I really wanted jd to win.He has had to many silver finishes.And he just abuses marines and widow mines. please tell me you're joking. Why so harsh? I think his english is great and it keeps getting better and better. I'm sure his vocabulary is bigger than most people realize but he just doesn't have the verbal aspect done tight but that comes with practice. Polt is the most awesome SCII player imo! Dude he majors in ENGLISH at UNIVERSITY level.At UNIVERSITY levels you are supposed to write 20 page long essays using advanced english and read entire books from one week to another.Polt literally is not proficient in oral English.i have never seen his essays or anything else from him but he can not express himself in English.he says one phrase mostly a subject and a predicate and that is it.I could speak better English than him in the 7th grade,How did this dude pass the Toefl Oral requirement.You can not get into uni in the USA without Toefl.He is bad at English considering he majors in it. I believe polt majors in bioengineering of some kind? Not English. Unless he swapped majors to come to the US. I thought he only came to improve his English not to study it.
that actually explains it.i had the impression he majored in English in the USA.But I still am amazed on how he passed the Toefl oral examination.
@nynjamist
I am sure you red my entire life by my tl posts.You know my education,financial situation everything just froma couple of posts.gg
@bigfan
If he actually studies biomedical engineering he doesnt need any oral skills.I was under the impression he majored in English.
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United States15275 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:23 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:18 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 12:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:13 goody153 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:05 Ammanas wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 11:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:
[quote]
All base-mineral units scale well with upgrades. Zerglings and zealots benefit greatly as well. Yes. What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. The main issue in the current TvZ metagame is that zerg has not figured out their proper hive timing and swarm hosts are utterly useless against bio-mine. Are they? As a protoss player - I thought in theory they are basically perfect counter to the mines themselves (well, BLs are, bou can get SHs easier). Just tank mines with free units and then kill the rest with ling/baneling. In theory you're right. In practice they aren't because of the kind of micro it takes to control them for the specific purpose of countering widow mines. Factor in the relatively poor speed of the Swarm Host as an added problem. TvZ if you haven't noticed is played VERY VERY fast, units that lack mobility like Tanks/Thors/Broodlords/Swarm Hosts and even at times Infestors have a really hard time finding their way into the metagame because their mobility becomes a huge problem. the swarmhost has almost no synergy in zvt .. locusts are too slow .. i may be wrong but i have not seen anyone successfully incorporating swarmhosts vs bio-mine terran in the highest levels .. and yes zergs havent figured out the hive timing Swarm Hosts have about as much synergy with the current meta as Thors and Siege Tanks do. The match up as a whole lacks diversity, it's on both sides of the aisle. Terrans field strictly bio/mine not just because it's a strong unit comp but also because the race lacks any kind of alternative composition that works at all in complement with Bio. Zerg as a response is fielding units that are only produced with the expressed purpose of dealing with Bio/Mine. It's a vicious cycle. Siege tanks are actually still really good against zerg. People just don't make them because with widow mines, you don't have to worry so much about replenishing them when caught off-guard. It isn't just that Widow Mines are better, it's also that tanks are MUCH weaker in the late game than Widow Mines are. Think about it, Widow Mines are leaps and bounds better vs every Hive Tech unit than Siege Tanks. Siege Tanks are countered hard by both Broodlords and Vipers and are soft countered somewhat by Ultralisks. Factor that in with their increased cost, and weaker mobility and it is no surprise at all that no one is using them except as defensive tools in the early and midgame.
They're barely better against brood lords and I would argue worse against ultralisks. But the real killer is the Viper.
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On August 12 2013 12:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:15 bigbadgreen wrote:On August 12 2013 12:13 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:10 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 11:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 11:54 bigbadgreen wrote:
why does marine still scale so hard with upgrades now that there are mines? in WOL I can understand why, but not in HOTS. All base-mineral units scale well with upgrades. Zerglings and zealots benefit greatly as well. Yes. What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. They also have Stim, which compounds the upgrades even more. Similar to how Adrenal Glands compound to help Zergling upgrades. Or Charge compounds Zealots. Metabolic Boost also greatly adds to the power of Lings late game although that's pretty much a given. Charge and Metabolic Boost helps Zerglings and Zealots get in to just inflict their DPS. Charge and Meta Boost does not actually have an effect on DPS like Adrenal Glands and Stim. It also improves their Mobility, which Stim also does, albeit with the cost of Health. Medivacs not only help mitigate that HP loss, but their healing also combos well with the Defensive upgrades. Stim actually accomplishes the same thing for Marines that charge and metabolic boost does for Zealots and Zerglings when you stop to think about it. How hard would it be to keep Marines alive without the added mobility that stim provides? How hard would it be to chase down Mutas? Stim does add the extra DPS but its also the only of the upgrades for tier 1 units that has a drawback in the form of health cost that requires Medivacs to heal. so get rid of damage from stim but make marines fight with knives instead of rifles? j/k. I just think with the range and medi support marines are the best tier 1, and Z isn't able to get out anything to deal with mines on the field. The thing about starcraft is that there's 3 races. So even if for some hypothetical reason we wanted to tone down Marines vs Zerg, there'd be no way to do that without dooming the race vs Protoss because Marines are just as important there as they are vs Zerg. The problem if there is one with the current match ups is two fold. 1. Bio is strong. 2. Everything Terran has that is NOT Bio is weak. You can't address one without addressing the other.
I prefer not to tone down marines but rather buff banelings armor or hp slightly so they don't get eaten up so fast to tier 3 marines. Also add a modifier to baneling damage to not be as effective vs sheilds so it doesn't wreck ZvP. not that blings are used much in that matchup.
This may not be the solution, but something has to be done. You can't just say things are ok and you don't sit back and do nothing because there is a 3rd race. I just can't see any way a Z can beat a well played bio mine style from an equally skilled T player unless the T makes a huge mistake.
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On August 12 2013 12:24 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:15 bigbadgreen wrote:On August 12 2013 12:13 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:10 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 11:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:
[quote]
All base-mineral units scale well with upgrades. Zerglings and zealots benefit greatly as well. Yes. What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. They also have Stim, which compounds the upgrades even more. Similar to how Adrenal Glands compound to help Zergling upgrades. Or Charge compounds Zealots. Metabolic Boost also greatly adds to the power of Lings late game although that's pretty much a given. Charge and Metabolic Boost helps Zerglings and Zealots get in to just inflict their DPS. Charge and Meta Boost does not actually have an effect on DPS like Adrenal Glands and Stim. It also improves their Mobility, which Stim also does, albeit with the cost of Health. Medivacs not only help mitigate that HP loss, but their healing also combos well with the Defensive upgrades. Stim actually accomplishes the same thing for Marines that charge and metabolic boost does for Zealots and Zerglings when you stop to think about it. How hard would it be to keep Marines alive without the added mobility that stim provides? How hard would it be to chase down Mutas? Stim does add the extra DPS but its also the only of the upgrades for tier 1 units that has a drawback in the form of health cost that requires Medivacs to heal. so get rid of damage from stim but make marines fight with knives instead of rifles? j/k. I just think with the range and medi support marines are the best tier 1, and Z isn't able to get out anything to deal with mines on the field. The thing about starcraft is that there's 3 races. So even if for some hypothetical reason we wanted to tone down Marines vs Zerg, there'd be no way to do that without dooming the race vs Protoss because Marines are just as important there as they are vs Zerg. The problem if there is one with the current match ups is two fold. 1. Bio is strong. 2. Everything Terran has that is NOT Bio is weak. You can't address one without addressing the other. #1 is correct but i think #2 is wrong .. i think other options are as just good just unexplored because no other option probably is better than bio .. i mean why would anyone bother to use anything that is not bio .. if bio itself is proven to be very powerful and safe
If you think people haven't used lots of marine/tank and Mech play in HOTS you are mistaken. You don't have to be einstein to work out that the viper completely hardcounters tanks.
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Is Jaedong the new kong? (at least for sc2)
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Ouch...poor jaedong >_< a clean sweep's gotta be rough :\
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On August 12 2013 12:23 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:20 Tachion wrote:On August 12 2013 12:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:13 goody153 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:05 Ammanas wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 11:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:
[quote]
All base-mineral units scale well with upgrades. Zerglings and zealots benefit greatly as well. Yes. What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. The main issue in the current TvZ metagame is that zerg has not figured out their proper hive timing and swarm hosts are utterly useless against bio-mine. Are they? As a protoss player - I thought in theory they are basically perfect counter to the mines themselves (well, BLs are, bou can get SHs easier). Just tank mines with free units and then kill the rest with ling/baneling. In theory you're right. In practice they aren't because of the kind of micro it takes to control them for the specific purpose of countering widow mines. Factor in the relatively poor speed of the Swarm Host as an added problem. TvZ if you haven't noticed is played VERY VERY fast, units that lack mobility like Tanks/Thors/Broodlords/Swarm Hosts and even at times Infestors have a really hard time finding their way into the metagame because their mobility becomes a huge problem. the swarmhost has almost no synergy in zvt .. locusts are too slow .. i may be wrong but i have not seen anyone successfully incorporating swarmhosts vs bio-mine terran in the highest levels .. and yes zergs havent figured out the hive timing The match up as a whole lacks diversity, it's on both sides of the aisle. Terrans field strictly bio/mine not just because it's a strong unit comp but also because the race lacks any kind of alternative composition that works at all in complement with Bio. Zerg as a response is fielding units that are only produced with the expressed purpose of dealing with Bio/Mine. It's a vicious cycle. I don't think zerg lacks diversity in the matchup. Not intentionally. I've seen swarmhosts, infestors, muta/ling, roach/hydra, quick hives and roach busts and baneling busts and whatnot, it's just that so few things are good vs bio/mine that it severely limits zergs options. Does not compute.
Basically I've seen a ton of different unit comps in ZvT over past 1-2 months, but the problem is that so little of it is actually viable. Zergs have tried/are trying to diversify to figure out how to respond to bio/mine, but basically none of it is working(so far) so all of these various styles are getting shot down 1 by 1 which = less variety.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:26 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:24 goody153 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:15 bigbadgreen wrote:On August 12 2013 12:13 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:10 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Yes.
What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. They also have Stim, which compounds the upgrades even more. Similar to how Adrenal Glands compound to help Zergling upgrades. Or Charge compounds Zealots. Metabolic Boost also greatly adds to the power of Lings late game although that's pretty much a given. Charge and Metabolic Boost helps Zerglings and Zealots get in to just inflict their DPS. Charge and Meta Boost does not actually have an effect on DPS like Adrenal Glands and Stim. It also improves their Mobility, which Stim also does, albeit with the cost of Health. Medivacs not only help mitigate that HP loss, but their healing also combos well with the Defensive upgrades. Stim actually accomplishes the same thing for Marines that charge and metabolic boost does for Zealots and Zerglings when you stop to think about it. How hard would it be to keep Marines alive without the added mobility that stim provides? How hard would it be to chase down Mutas? Stim does add the extra DPS but its also the only of the upgrades for tier 1 units that has a drawback in the form of health cost that requires Medivacs to heal. so get rid of damage from stim but make marines fight with knives instead of rifles? j/k. I just think with the range and medi support marines are the best tier 1, and Z isn't able to get out anything to deal with mines on the field. The thing about starcraft is that there's 3 races. So even if for some hypothetical reason we wanted to tone down Marines vs Zerg, there'd be no way to do that without dooming the race vs Protoss because Marines are just as important there as they are vs Zerg. The problem if there is one with the current match ups is two fold. 1. Bio is strong. 2. Everything Terran has that is NOT Bio is weak. You can't address one without addressing the other. #1 is correct but i think #2 is wrong .. i think other options are as just good just unexplored because no other option probably is better than bio .. i mean why would anyone bother to use anything that is not bio .. if bio itself is proven to be very powerful and safe If you think people haven't used lots of marine/tank and Mech play in HOTS you are mistaken. You don't have to be einstein to work out that the viper completely hardcounters tanks.
The viper is the bane of mech. The ability to pull units with abduct and being able to cast blinding clouds from the same unit makes the unit quite powerful imo. Think of it this way: vipers come in abduct the thors, land some blinding clouds then the zerg moves in just as everything unsieges = GG! I wish blizzard would move the blinding cloud to another unit or something but meh.
For the record, not balance whining, just saying that 2 abilities for the viper makes it a good unit and wish more zergs used it 
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On August 12 2013 12:28 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 12:23 IPA wrote:On August 12 2013 12:20 Tachion wrote:On August 12 2013 12:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:13 goody153 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 12 2013 12:05 Ammanas wrote:On August 12 2013 12:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 12 2013 12:00 sAsImre wrote:On August 12 2013 11:59 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Yes.
What makes 3/3 marines so deadly is their low initial cost and 1 supply cost. Same is true also for Zealots and Zerglings. The cheaper the unit the more worthwhile upgrading it becomes. imo marines have two big advantages: the fact they're ranged which means scale really well in numbers and the fact they've such a wonderful synergy with medivacs. The main issue in the current TvZ metagame is that zerg has not figured out their proper hive timing and swarm hosts are utterly useless against bio-mine. Are they? As a protoss player - I thought in theory they are basically perfect counter to the mines themselves (well, BLs are, bou can get SHs easier). Just tank mines with free units and then kill the rest with ling/baneling. In theory you're right. In practice they aren't because of the kind of micro it takes to control them for the specific purpose of countering widow mines. Factor in the relatively poor speed of the Swarm Host as an added problem. TvZ if you haven't noticed is played VERY VERY fast, units that lack mobility like Tanks/Thors/Broodlords/Swarm Hosts and even at times Infestors have a really hard time finding their way into the metagame because their mobility becomes a huge problem. the swarmhost has almost no synergy in zvt .. locusts are too slow .. i may be wrong but i have not seen anyone successfully incorporating swarmhosts vs bio-mine terran in the highest levels .. and yes zergs havent figured out the hive timing The match up as a whole lacks diversity, it's on both sides of the aisle. Terrans field strictly bio/mine not just because it's a strong unit comp but also because the race lacks any kind of alternative composition that works at all in complement with Bio. Zerg as a response is fielding units that are only produced with the expressed purpose of dealing with Bio/Mine. It's a vicious cycle. I don't think zerg lacks diversity in the matchup. Not intentionally. I've seen swarmhosts, infestors, muta/ling, roach/hydra, quick hives and roach busts and baneling busts and whatnot, it's just that so few things are good vs bio/mine that it severely limits zergs options. Does not compute. Basically I've seen a ton of different unit comps in ZvT over past 1-2 months, but the problem is that so little of it is actually viable. Zergs have tried/are trying to diversify to figure out how to respond to bio/mine, but basically none of it is working(so far) so all of these various styles are getting shot down 1 by 1 which = less variety.
Maybe zergs can split their units and not eat widowmines in a clump
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Ok I appologise to polt.I was under the impression he majored in English.he does not need any oral skills for the bio thing he is styding.My mistake.Sorry.Now stop quoting my innitial post.
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On August 12 2013 12:22 lichter wrote:
Am I the only one who finds the hundredth bio-mine vs lingblingmuta game boring? I mean after watching Innovation vs Soulkey do it several times now, it's hard to get excited for another one by equal or lesser players.
Tbh I prefer PvZ just because of build variety. Even PvP is more interesting to me now, ewww.
I will join you in that corner of preference, friend. <3
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EPT
