On June 09 2013 15:43 zodde wrote: Even if Chobras korean is a bit lacking, he can always improve that. He has done an awesome job showing the korean progamers personalities this weekend, something we haven't really seen from any other translator.
It's odd though, if his korean isn't that great then just how bad are these other sc2 translators? The answers chobra got out were extremely elaborate, is he just making stuff up? Didn't look like it at all.
Dude- The guy said Chobra's Korean was lacking yet provided ZERO evidence of it being inadequate. Please do not be so quick to believe people. I am a fluent (had a Korean partner for 12+ years) somewhat and cannot pick up major errors. Just some continuity issues that arises from having to translate so quickly.
On June 09 2013 15:42 YourHarry wrote: In vegas: a lot of money being wagered on sOs. Innovation payout moved from 1.25 to 1.67 in the last hour or so.
Anyways, the language discussion isn't about semantics over which language is derived from which.
The point is there is a HUGE demand in the English speaking world for insights from the best SC2 players.... all of which are Koreans and with the notable exceptions of Polt and Violet, all of which don't speak English.
For the record, I only speak one language, so I'm not attacking over that, I'm just making the point that filling this gap would do more to grow SC2 than anything else at this point.
South Korea higher rated than France. But even if you have good English it is hard to communicate if you don't speak English ever. Also Progamers are known for their gaming and not for their school education, many of them drop out of school early to focus on Starcraft.
Thank you. This is interesting. Looks like things are changing. Well it is based on an online test so they most likely did not need to speak though . Japanese and koreans may be better than french in these tests, because they do practice a lot for this kind of tests, but while french are bad at english overall, they still can speak way better than japanese imo (I'm french). But I agree japanese/koreans might have become better than french in academic english.
On June 09 2013 15:43 zodde wrote: Even if Chobras korean is a bit lacking, he can always improve that. He has done an awesome job showing the korean progamers personalities this weekend, something we haven't really seen from any other translator.
Hmm I don't find his Korean lacking, my problem with him was his nauseating personality. The ONLY error i picked up on the lounge show was: Soulkey said "It would be better/less waste of a time for you to assume we only practice" in response to "What does an average day look like at the Woongjin house". Chobra translate what Soulkey said to "They basically only practice".
Ooh, interestingly nuanced.
Does the literal translation intend to sound cocky? (at least it does to me) or is it just something that's added in the translation?
No the literal translate actually sounds very.. tired. As in I am fucking exhausted because this is all I do. However I am willing to concede I could be wrong on this but it was what I picked up from his tone and use of words.
On June 09 2013 15:42 YourHarry wrote: In vegas: a lot of money being wagered on sOs. Innovation payout moved from 1.25 to 1.67 in the last hour or so.
On June 09 2013 15:50 dsousa wrote: Anyways, the language discussion isn't about semantics over which language is derived from which.
The point is there is a HUGE demand in the English speaking world for insights from the best SC2 players.... all of which are Koreans and with the notable exceptions of Polt and Violet, all of which don't speak English.
For the record, I only speak one language, so I'm not attacking over that, I'm just making the point that filling this gap would do more to grow SC2 than anything else at this point.
On June 09 2013 15:05 JP Dayne wrote: guys, is there a particular reason why there are like no pro players that can actually speak english?
I agree its odd. We all think of these guys as super smart, but not a one can do an interview in English.
Look at Dimaga, TLO and Stephano. They all had a different first language than English, but they all can also do English interviews without problem.
That's because French and German are very close to English. They share the same lineage, whereas Korean does not.
Not entirely true. We share the same Alphabet, but you're quoting 3 languages with different roots here. Regardless, it's true that the whole 'european' melting-pot of the past two milleniums has brought things together. Would have been better to compare French with Spanish and Italian though.
I've always wondered about this- because i've assumed the link between the European languages were stronger than the root between Asian languages. However having said this- old Chinese script serves as major foundation for the 3 major Eastern languages (Chinese, Korean and Japanese).
The Chinese script doesn't serve as the foundation for anything; it's just the way things are (sometimes) written. Japanese is as unrelated linguistically to Chinese as Finnish is to Swedish, There are a lot of Chinese loanwords and the writing system is ultimately derived from Chinese characters, but base vocabulary, grammar, etc. are a lot different. Korean is similarly considered part of a completely different language family.
That said, I think the main reason why Koreans (and other East Asians) aren't as good at English as Europeans is really the level of exposure they get to media with native English speakers. Things like American movies, English-language video games, etc. Even going on English-language forums to talk about these things.
I might be presuming a bit much, but English skill in European countries seems to correlate with how much native media that country consumes -- the French, who seem to be generally English-averse, and the Germans, who dub everything are on the lower end, while Scandinavians seem to have the best English. Koreans mostly play Korean games, watch Korean shows/movies, etc. And sometimes Japanese. Compare it to how good an American's Spanish would be, or an Englishman's French.
Ugh me being a hypocrite. If you understood any Korean vocab (Which I do fortunately) then you would know that many many Chinese words were used as a basis or in some cases the exact same word. If you look at King SaeJyong (The creator of the Korean language) and his works he specifically cites the old Chinese script as a basis upon which the Korean language was created. Please know what you talk about before you talk bro
Yes, I think Korean is a language created on purpose to replace Chinese as their official language. And they still use a lot of Chinese words and idioms for posters and art work etc, even young kids can understand them.
I am not sure dude... Yeah a lot of people still use Chinese language for things sometimes. But it's like it depends on the person. If they can read it or not.
Do most koreans only learn as much hanja as is needed in school (if any), and then forget it when it's not used much in real life?
We're 10 mins from the finals and we're sitting here talking about languages? Not a game, but languages? We're not even talking about the game, the actual game that matters. We're sitting here talking about languages man!
On June 09 2013 15:43 zodde wrote: Even if Chobras korean is a bit lacking, he can always improve that. He has done an awesome job showing the korean progamers personalities this weekend, something we haven't really seen from any other translator.
It's odd though, if his korean isn't that great then just how bad are these other sc2 translators? The answers chobra got out were extremely elaborate, is he just making stuff up? Didn't look like it at all.
I just took that from a single post in this thread, from someone who seems to know korean. I have no idea how good or bad his korean is, but it doesn't seem that bad. As you said, he has to be somewhat decent or he's just making up answers.
Probably just someone who exaggerated about how lacking his korean was.
That's because French and German are very close to English. They share the same lineage, whereas Korean does not.
Not entirely true. We share the same Alphabet, but you're quoting 3 languages with different roots here. Regardless, it's true that the whole 'european' melting-pot of the past two milleniums has brought things together. Would have been better to compare French with Spanish and Italian though.
I've always wondered about this- because i've assumed the link between the European languages were stronger than the root between Asian languages. However having said this- old Chinese script serves as major foundation for the 3 major Eastern languages (Chinese, Korean and Japanese).
The Chinese script doesn't serve as the foundation for anything; it's just the way things are (sometimes) written. Japanese is as unrelated linguistically to Chinese as Finnish is to Swedish, There are a lot of Chinese loanwords and the writing system is ultimately derived from Chinese characters, but base vocabulary, grammar, etc. are a lot different. Korean is similarly considered part of a completely different language family.
That said, I think the main reason why Koreans (and other East Asians) aren't as good at English as Europeans is really the level of exposure they get to media with native English speakers. Things like American movies, English-language video games, etc. Even going on English-language forums to talk about these things.
I might be presuming a bit much, but English skill in European countries seems to correlate with how much native media that country consumes -- the French, who seem to be generally English-averse, and the Germans, who dub everything are on the lower end, while Scandinavians seem to have the best English. Koreans mostly play Korean games, watch Korean shows/movies, etc. And sometimes Japanese. Compare it to how good an American's Spanish would be, or an Englishman's French.
Ugh me being a hypocrite. If you understood any Korean vocab (Which I do fortunately) then you would know that many many Chinese words were used as a basis or in some cases the exact same word. If you look at King SaeJyong (The creator of the Korean language) and his works he specifically cites the old Chinese script as a basis upon which the Korean language was created. Please know what you talk about before you talk bro
There's a difference between having vocabulary derived from a language (English has like 70% derived from Latin but isn't a Romance language) and being based on it. Yes, Korean has lots of loanwords from Chinese (similar to English and Latin). So does Japanese. But from a linguistic perspective, the language structures are complete different.
And you're confusing the script with the language. SaeJyong didn't create the language. He created the script (which yes, was based on Chinese).
If people are reading this, please ignore this guy. Do your own independent research if you are curious about the origins and status of the Korean language (it is quite fascinating), but this person is purposely spreading false information that he may have garnered from unreliable sources, friends, bad Wikipedia articles and general ignorance.
Don't ask me to refute him, doing a simple 10-15 minute reading into the matter will not only make you feel better but prepare you better to know that they are people who spout nonsense to look intelligent. This guy being a prime example.
You realize by linking a large Wikipedia article without citing any part of it makes you look worse? Yes I am done I have had my measure of you and I find it quite accurate.
If you're gonna call him out on his source, you better have a superior one.
He's saying if you read those articles properly, then you'd realise he (Partha) is right.
On June 09 2013 15:05 JP Dayne wrote: guys, is there a particular reason why there are like no pro players that can actually speak english?
I agree its odd. We all think of these guys as super smart, but not a one can do an interview in English.
Look at Dimaga, TLO and Stephano. They all had a different first language than English, but they all can also do English interviews without problem.
That's because French and German are very close to English. They share the same lineage, whereas Korean does not.
Not entirely true. We share the same Alphabet, but you're quoting 3 languages with different roots here. Regardless, it's true that the whole 'european' melting-pot of the past two milleniums has brought things together. Would have been better to compare French with Spanish and Italian though.
I've always wondered about this- because i've assumed the link between the European languages were stronger than the root between Asian languages. However having said this- old Chinese script serves as major foundation for the 3 major Eastern languages (Chinese, Korean and Japanese).
The Chinese script doesn't serve as the foundation for anything; it's just the way things are (sometimes) written. Japanese is as unrelated linguistically to Chinese as Finnish is to Swedish, There are a lot of Chinese loanwords and the writing system is ultimately derived from Chinese characters, but base vocabulary, grammar, etc. are a lot different. Korean is similarly considered part of a completely different language family.
That said, I think the main reason why Koreans (and other East Asians) aren't as good at English as Europeans is really the level of exposure they get to media with native English speakers. Things like American movies, English-language video games, etc. Even going on English-language forums to talk about these things.
I might be presuming a bit much, but English skill in European countries seems to correlate with how much native media that country consumes -- the French, who seem to be generally English-averse, and the Germans, who dub everything are on the lower end, while Scandinavians seem to have the best English. Koreans mostly play Korean games, watch Korean shows/movies, etc. And sometimes Japanese. Compare it to how good an American's Spanish would be, or an Englishman's French.
Ugh me being a hypocrite. If you understood any Korean vocab (Which I do fortunately) then you would know that many many Chinese words were used as a basis or in some cases the exact same word. If you look at King SaeJyong (The creator of the Korean language) and his works he specifically cites the old Chinese script as a basis upon which the Korean language was created. Please know what you talk about before you talk bro
Yes, I think Korean is a language created on purpose to replace Chinese as their official language. And they still use a lot of Chinese words and idioms for posters and art work etc, even young kids can understand them.
I am not sure dude... Yeah a lot of people still use Chinese language for things sometimes. But it's like it depends on the person. If they can read it or not.
Do most koreans only learn as much hanja as is needed in school (if any), and then forget it when it's not used much in real life?
Yes most Koreans do in fact lose the ability to read and write Hanja as they age. It just loses its practical value beyond knowledge, some complex words that only exist in Hanja (these are usually one words that describe a phrase/context). However you will find that 90% of Koreans know how to write their name in Han-ja.
I think the thing about Koreans not speaking English is sometimes more of a confidence issue, rather than their inability to use English. Maybe they feel like they can't bring their point across in English well enough?
On June 09 2013 15:52 Canucklehead wrote: We're 10 mins from the finals and we're sitting here talking about languages? Not a game, but languages? We're not even talking about the game, the actual game that matters. We're sitting here talking about languages man!
On June 09 2013 13:58 Evangelist wrote: Best terran in the world is so clearly Mvp it is ridiculous. I don't know how many times the guy has to prove it. He can't even feel his mouse hand clicking anymore and he gave Innovation an absolute pounding.
Mvp is really fucking good, and I respect anyone whos good, even more with a handicap like his wrists problem but this is pushing it.
Seriously if he were best in the world he'd still be playing WCS KR. He's clearly top tier along with Innovation and Flash, but "Best terran in the world is so clearly Mvp it is ridiculous." is ridiculous.
people seemed to forget that the twat who introduced the elephant theory didnt write the obvious "given enough time really talented BW players will be really good at SC2." He wrote "SC2 players are shit." It's very offensive.
Yeh I don't think he directly said that, but it was a horribly written offensive article that was very selective with the evidence and was based on ignorance of the brood war scene
MC was thrown into PL games early because he had amazing potential Fruit dealer was getting PL time and was a really good BW player
let's just never bring up that article again and hopefully in a few years people will create threads wondering where the term "elephant" came from
I think the article was quite well written. You might disagree with the argument that it lays out (I do too) but the article itself was a good piece of writing. I also have no idea why people find it offensive, basically everything he said about peoples past and motivations were true, its just the predictions that are still in question.
Still in question? They have been completely debunked. People don't seem to get that the article wasn't just saying Kespa players will be really good at SC2, that was never up for debate. He claimed that within a few months of their switch they would be completely dominant and SC2 competition up until that happens is, in his own words, a farce.
Do you remember what the Kespa players looked like after 3 months? Dominant? They were barely competitive. Even now, over a year in, ESF players still put up a fight. The article was wrong, completely wrong, and that's the end of it.
he wasnt able to fully realise how small the skill ceiling was, whats his fault? do you remember what the kespa players looked like? they always had a positive record, lol barely competetive. putting up what fight?
On June 09 2013 13:59 terapika wrote: i hope u guys didn't really think a code B could take out a code s finalist
You came to the wrong neighborhood dude. mvp has won more SC2 tournaments than bogus has even played in to this point. Anyone who had any idea what was going on knew that this was going to be a really close series.
You mean when kespa were still playing bw
You are disgusting...
Nah he's just embarassed that his Kespa hero struggled like mad to make it past a guy with RSI so bad he can't feel his mouse hand clicking.
I'd be embarassed too. This is coming from a guy who actually welcomed Kespa into the scene but gravely dislikes the BW fanbois and retarded elephant bs. Mvp is still the best terran player in the world. Nothing I saw in that series dissuades me from that.
On June 09 2013 13:58 LighT. wrote: As I said before, Mvp is mechanicaly inferior, he has to rely on his brilliant playmaking and decision making to win his games. Hmm...but Mvp is definitely a top 15 player for sure, right up there with the top tier terrans but slightly below Innovation/Flash.
top 15? lol
Mvp's mechanics have fallen off since his wrist problem. Starting around the third GSL season of WoL or so, Mvp's mechanics seemed to be the best among Terran players. Back then, it was his decision-making that would end up costing him games at times.
I dont know if there's anything wrong with what I said. Yes, top 15. And correct, with his wrist problems + the fact that he's now competiting in a pool of the best known "mechanically superior" players in the KeSPA players, he's a tier below in mechanics.
It's his impeccable game decisions/game sense that has been keep him among the best. As much as I'd get flamed for it, put him in a Bo5/7 against TY or Inno, and I'd think TY and Innovation would take the set a majority of the time. A percentage even greater if it was against someone like Flash.
On June 09 2013 15:05 JP Dayne wrote: guys, is there a particular reason why there are like no pro players that can actually speak english?
I agree its odd. We all think of these guys as super smart, but not a one can do an interview in English.
Look at Dimaga, TLO and Stephano. They all had a different first language than English, but they all can also do English interviews without problem.
That's because French and German are very close to English. They share the same lineage, whereas Korean does not.
Not entirely true. We share the same Alphabet, but you're quoting 3 languages with different roots here. Regardless, it's true that the whole 'european' melting-pot of the past two milleniums has brought things together. Would have been better to compare French with Spanish and Italian though.
I've always wondered about this- because i've assumed the link between the European languages were stronger than the root between Asian languages. However having said this- old Chinese script serves as major foundation for the 3 major Eastern languages (Chinese, Korean and Japanese).
The Chinese script doesn't serve as the foundation for anything; it's just the way things are (sometimes) written. Japanese is as unrelated linguistically to Chinese as Finnish is to Swedish, There are a lot of Chinese loanwords and the writing system is ultimately derived from Chinese characters, but base vocabulary, grammar, etc. are a lot different. Korean is similarly considered part of a completely different language family.
That said, I think the main reason why Koreans (and other East Asians) aren't as good at English as Europeans is really the level of exposure they get to media with native English speakers. Things like American movies, English-language video games, etc. Even going on English-language forums to talk about these things.
I might be presuming a bit much, but English skill in European countries seems to correlate with how much native media that country consumes -- the French, who seem to be generally English-averse, and the Germans, who dub everything are on the lower end, while Scandinavians seem to have the best English. Koreans mostly play Korean games, watch Korean shows/movies, etc. And sometimes Japanese. Compare it to how good an American's Spanish would be, or an Englishman's French.
Ugh me being a hypocrite. If you understood any Korean vocab (Which I do fortunately) then you would know that many many Chinese words were used as a basis or in some cases the exact same word. If you look at King SaeJyong (The creator of the Korean language) and his works he specifically cites the old Chinese script as a basis upon which the Korean language was created. Please know what you talk about before you talk bro
Yes, I think Korean is a language created on purpose to replace Chinese as their official language. And they still use a lot of Chinese words and idioms for posters and art work etc, even young kids can understand them.
I am not sure dude... Yeah a lot of people still use Chinese language for things sometimes. But it's like it depends on the person. If they can read it or not.
Do most koreans only learn as much hanja as is needed in school (if any), and then forget it when it's not used much in real life?
I think like learning hanja used to be a lot more normal a long time ago. But then now a days nobody really do it unless they go out of their way to learn it.
There's hanja (Chinese letter sayings) that originated from China, or like from Korea itself. Or maybe from other countries. But most people don't really understand Chinese or know how to read it anymore....
EPT
