EPT[Code S] Grand Finals 2013 GSL Season 1 - Page 90
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
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Shellshock
United States97277 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:38 Black Gun wrote: so roro, of all people, became the first kespa gsl champion. roro, who had been the epitome of mediocrity in bw. guess this in itself disproves the elephant argument, that basically said that skill from bw will directly transition to sc2, so that the huge discrepancy in bw skill between the then bw-stars and the bw skill of the then sc2-stars would lead to the downfall of all esf players. pretty much. I think we will reach a stabilizing point soon and have a good mix of esf and kespa players in Code S, which is good because it probably means all the best players are there | ||
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Emuking
United States144 Posts
ZvZ feels coinflippy to me and the micro isnt fun to watch once you've seen it done; but thats just my opinion. Thats why i didnt watch. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:42 Shellshock1122 wrote: pretty much. I think we will reach a stabilizing point soon and have a good mix of esf and kespa players in Code S, which is good because it probably means all the best players are there yup. but i also think that the success of kespa players in sc2 might be underestimated slightly because people expected the old bw stars to perform well. but guys like jd, bisu stork and so on are kinda washed out and were clearly on the decline even before the transition to sc2. thus, it is actually no surprise that they are underperforming in sc2, but this fact weighs heavily in our perception. on the other hand, people who were slightly younger, like flash and fantasy, are doing fine while people who were even younger than them, like e.g. bogus/innovation, are doing more than fine. guess its more of an age thing - its probably much easier to successfully transition from one game to another if you had not yet reached your personal prime in the old game. another reason why we might be slighly underestimating the kespa players is that they are focusing on their teamleague much more than the esf players. for kespa players, pl is the most important tournament. for esf players, gsl is the most important one. thus, i believe that kespa players who make it far into the gsl will be given less practice time allocated to the gsl than corresponding esf players. this is an important point since the mappools differ quite substantially, so that additional practice time on the gsl maps is needed for kespa players to succeed in the gsl. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:45 Tachion wrote: A lot of people say they don't like ZvZ, but from symbol vs curious in Ro4 to finals, 12/12 games were "yes" recommended by the majority of voters. Maybe the only people left watching are the people that like ZvZ ;o Or maybe people are just full of crap about not liking it! It's much more likely the former, not the latter. I didn't watch the finals, don't care who won, and I'm glad WoL is finally dead. | ||
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Shellshock
United States97277 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:48 Black Gun wrote: yup. but i also think that the success of kespa players in sc2 might be underestimated slightly because people expected the old bw stars to perform well. but guys like jd, bisu stork and so on are kinda washed out and were clearly on the decline even before the transition to sc2. thus, it is actually no surprise that they are underperforming in sc2, but this fact weighs heavily in our perception. on the other hand, people who were slightly younger, like flash and fantasy, are doing fine while people who were even younger than them, like e.g. bogus/innovation, are doing more than fine. guess its more of an age thing - its probably much easier to successfully transition from one game to another if you had not yet reached your personal prime in the old game. another reason why we might be slighly underestimating the kespa players is that they are focusing on their teamleague much more than the esf players. for kespa players, pl is the most important tournament. for esf players, gsl is the most important one. thus, i believe that kespa players who make it far into the gsl will be given less practice time allocated to the gsl than corresponding esf players. this is an important point since the mappools differ quite substantially, so that additional practice time on the gsl maps is needed for kespa players to succeed in the gsl. Yeah I think both of those arguments hold some weight. Some of these guys definitely could have been rising stars in brood war and been at the top soon. Admittedly, I don't know much about the BW scene besides the basics. As for the team league thing, I think that's why we won't see some players that look really good in Proleague in the GSL, especially if they are they type of player that prepares for a specific map/matchup. They might have a dominating record in proleague since they've mastered that map but they aren't well-rounded enough to make a deep run in the individual league. I'm sure the same thing happened in BW with OSL and MSL, right? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:45 Tachion wrote: A lot of people say they don't like ZvZ, but from symbol vs curious in Ro4 to finals, 12/12 games were "yes" recommended by the majority of voters. Maybe the only people left watching are the people that like ZvZ ;o Or maybe people are just full of crap about not liking it! You just have to read the crap they are writing. Half of the people "don't like ZvZ" because it is only about roaches. The other half doesn't like it because it is only about infestors. The next half doesn't like the oh so common ZvZ broodlord turtlefests. The 4th half is going to tell you that ling/bling is way to coinflippy early on. + Show Spoiler + And no, I didn't misscount. Most of those haters will just adjust their argument based upon what they saw in the last game they watched. Also, no matter how much you hate a matchup, GSL is (nearly) always worth watching. Because the level of play is just better than anywhere else. IEM spoilers + Show Spoiler + As can be seen by how onesided IEM was, start to finals minus the Yoda/Yongwha and Yoda/Mvp series. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On March 10 2013 10:15 Big J wrote: You just have to read the crap they are writing. Half of the people "don't like ZvZ" because it is only about roaches. The other half doesn't like it because it is only about infestors. The next half doesn't like the oh so common ZvZ broodlord turtlefests. The 4th half is going to tell you that ling/bling is way to coinflippy early on. + Show Spoiler + And no, I didn't misscount. Most of those haters will just adjust their argument based upon what they saw in the last game they watched. Also, no matter how much you hate a matchup, GSL is (nearly) always worth watching. Because the level of play is just better than anywhere else. IEM spoilers + Show Spoiler + As can be seen by how onesided IEM was, start to finals minus the Yoda/Yongwha and Yoda/Mvp series. Ling/baneling is pretty fun to watch I find. I can think of two genuinely top notch ZvZ games I've seen over the course of WoL, and one was the endless 1 base vs 1 base game between Effort and DRG on TDA. The more common roach/hydra/infestor style is dull though. | ||
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openbox1
1393 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:45 Tachion wrote: A lot of people say they don't like ZvZ, but from symbol vs curious in Ro4 to finals, 12/12 games were "yes" recommended by the majority of voters. Maybe the only people left watching are the people that like ZvZ ;o Or maybe people are just full of crap about not liking it! You get bias from the fact that the people who watched the match are mainly those that are interested in zvz in the first place. All those people who didn't watch the match and who wouldn't recommend the match are filtered out of the results. | ||
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christophequirion
France82 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:38 Black Gun wrote: so roro, of all people, became the first kespa gsl champion. roro, who had been the epitome of mediocrity in bw. guess this in itself disproves the elephant argument, that basically said that skill from bw will directly transition to sc2, so that the huge discrepancy in bw skill between the then bw-stars and the bw skill of the then sc2-stars would lead to the downfall of all esf players. ?? Roro wasn't mediocre. He was a very decent proleague player (in 2010 notably), with win against Bisu, Stork, Snow, Leta, Calm, Kwanro, Skyhigh, Movie, FBH, Effort... (and Rain, Argo, Carno...). | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote: The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means.What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting. Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote: The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. It's a bit too late for that now though, at least for WoL it is. It's interesting to see how Symbol's mistake were the main reason he lost(left like 10+ hydras on the high ground in that last game) and how RorO took advantage of any situations he could while Symbol didn't(game 1 and 2 for ex). | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote: The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. Yet was there any need at all? That article did 2 things. 1 Spit on the then current SC2 as a huge BW elitist by calling it a farce. 2 Made the line between then current sc2 fans and Kespa fans into a barrier. That article did nothing good whatsoever and the fact that it is still up means TL is somehow ok with this whole ESF vs Kespa bullshit. Your point also doesn't make sense. Back then we crowning the best of sc2 as the best of sc2. We didn't crown them as the best of RTS. That there was a whole other scene had zero relevance with who was the best sc2 back then. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
On March 10 2013 07:34 Akamu wrote: Yup it's so sad that this is how WoL ends. I didn't care enough to watch and i'm sure a lot of people feel the same way. Whether the perceived zerg imbalance is true or not the fact of the matter is most people just don't care to watch zvz. At least not after the last few months. If Taeja or MC made it this could have been a HUGE final. if it was taeja x zerg i would wake up for sure (here would be 8 am so would not be that big of an annoyance .... ) | ||
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MinzySC2
United States261 Posts
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Ace Frehley
2030 Posts
On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote: The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On March 10 2013 13:55 MinzySC2 wrote: I believe the most important thing to take away from RorO's win is this. At the BWC, one SamsungKHANRorO lost to an enigmatic American legend, Evil Geniuses IdrA. By the transitive property, IdrA is the best player in the world. I can't think of a better feeling that I could derive from watching SC2, than from seeing Idra win a GSL. He would be so smug afterwards, I would love it | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote: The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. That logic doesn't make any sense. By your logic, you could call any game's scene "incomplete" if there was another game of the same genre that was also being played by other pros. "A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really 'the best' of SC2" is one of the stupidest things I've read in a while. Your logic is that while we were calling people like MVP/MC/Nestea "the best" at SC2, they weren't really "the best" at SC2 because there were players out there who could potentially be "the best" if they were actually playing SC2. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that line of thinking is? "The LoL scene is incomplete because there are all these people playing DotA 2 who could be playing LoL, so being the best at LoL doesn't actually mean you're the best at LoL because there are players who could potentially be the best at LoL if they actually played LoL" Pffft. The bottom line is that the best players of a certain time are the best players of that certain time. Players who could POTENTIALLY be the best but aren't because they're not even playing the same game shouldn't even be factored into the equation at all. | ||
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