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On March 10 2013 18:16 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 17:56 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 17:42 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 16:04 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 15:46 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 15:22 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. excellent post, well said. i would venture further and say that the extent of kespa's claim on the definition of 'the best' is still not fully determined. proleague's full transition to sc2 only happened december of last year. before that, kespa's performance in sc2 was severely hampered by the fact that they had to play broodwar as well. roro's accomplishment here is just the beginning. And if you saw the level of BW games during that season, it was pretty obvious that a majority of the time was spent on SC2. and the 1st full sc2 proleague did start december of last year. i didn't say they didn't practice sc2 before this. conjecture. each player had to play broodwar and sc2 alternatively every time he is fielded, if i remember correctly. what makes you think they'd spend most of their time on sc2 only? Because of how the matches worked. Althought it was split between BW and SC2, if one team won the BW matches and the other won the SC2 matches, the ACE match was always SC2. So from a strategic perspective, it simply made more sense to focus on SC2 more. Especially for the Ace players. Because you can technically win the entire league without winning a single BW game. Again, I am sure that players still practiced BW since it would be better to not have to go to Ace. But I am sure the higher percentage of the practice them would be spent on SC2. Plus everyone knew it was the end of BW, so that gave an evn bigger incentive to get a bigger head start on SC2. Jangbi also mentioned that he got a later start compare to everyone else due to being in finals of the last BW OSL. yeah, that makes sense. the point, however, is that the kespa guys have far less experience in sc2 than the non-kespa guys. my point still stands. we will just see what happens in the coming gsl seasons. my money's on kespa tearing it up for sure. never been this excited about sc2 before  I am pretty sure the head start is pretty much mute at this point. I know a lot of people like to bring up the 2 year head start, but it is not like Kespa pros had to re-learn the meta get from GSL Open Seasons to now. Most korean pros said it would take 6 months and we are pretty much past that point now.
meh, i don't agree
there are still a good number of kespa pros who have yet to really find their groove in sc2. we shall see 
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete.
But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched.
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On March 10 2013 18:16 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 17:56 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 17:42 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 16:04 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 15:46 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 15:22 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. excellent post, well said. i would venture further and say that the extent of kespa's claim on the definition of 'the best' is still not fully determined. proleague's full transition to sc2 only happened december of last year. before that, kespa's performance in sc2 was severely hampered by the fact that they had to play broodwar as well. roro's accomplishment here is just the beginning. And if you saw the level of BW games during that season, it was pretty obvious that a majority of the time was spent on SC2. and the 1st full sc2 proleague did start december of last year. i didn't say they didn't practice sc2 before this. conjecture. each player had to play broodwar and sc2 alternatively every time he is fielded, if i remember correctly. what makes you think they'd spend most of their time on sc2 only? Because of how the matches worked. Althought it was split between BW and SC2, if one team won the BW matches and the other won the SC2 matches, the ACE match was always SC2. So from a strategic perspective, it simply made more sense to focus on SC2 more. Especially for the Ace players. Because you can technically win the entire league without winning a single BW game. Again, I am sure that players still practiced BW since it would be better to not have to go to Ace. But I am sure the higher percentage of the practice them would be spent on SC2. Plus everyone knew it was the end of BW, so that gave an evn bigger incentive to get a bigger head start on SC2. Jangbi also mentioned that he got a later start compare to everyone else due to being in finals of the last BW OSL. yeah, that makes sense. the point, however, is that the kespa guys have far less experience in sc2 than the non-kespa guys. my point still stands. we will just see what happens in the coming gsl seasons. my money's on kespa tearing it up for sure. never been this excited about sc2 before I am pretty sure the head start is pretty much mute at this point. I know a lot of people like to bring up the 2 year head start, but it is not like Kespa pros had to re-learn the meta get from GSL Open Seasons to now. Most korean pros said it would take 6 months and we are pretty much past that point now. Will be especially interesting with HoTS. I would expect even more Kespa players to make it to Code S. But I expect a lot of eSF players to get spots as well.
The most successful Korean pro say this. Because, well, the non-successful ones don't give interviews or perhaps even play the game anymore. The conversion rate is nowhere near 100%. Perhaps not even 20 or 10%. If no one knew about the BW teams and they just come on to the scene, no one would be pointing out the failures. Instead, we just look at Rain, Bogus, Roro, etc. as successful new players.
I feel what people harp on so much are the failures when that should always be expected. Obviously not all Kespa players would make the conversion successfully. And obviously not all would convert at the same pace. Despite what they look like on TV, ex-BW players are all different, practice/play/think differently, and therefore acclimate to the new game differently.
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On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched.
lol. we also can't know if a flying half-pig, half-fish animal exists somewhere in the universe.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On March 10 2013 21:33 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched. lol. we also can't know if a flying half-pig, half-fish animal exists somewhere in the universe.
see how stupid this argument gets?
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On March 10 2013 22:00 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 21:33 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched. lol. we also can't know if a flying half-pig, half-fish animal exists somewhere in the universe. see how stupid this argument gets?
it only becomes stupid if people aren't at least trying to let go of their biases. claims like that don't even make sense. there is no reason to think the giraffes would have a major impact in the broodwar scene, and i don't think even the giraffes themselves would claim otherwise. weren't grubby and moon the top wc3 players? what were their results in sc2? i'm assuming giraffes = wc3 pros.
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On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched.
The average SC2 fan at the time did not even suspect there is another relevant scene - so it was needed to be talked more about that by those who realized it (they were definitely not the majority).
See that's the difference - in this case we actually have already a fact: a won title, not theory about it. What sounded before like only a (reasonable) prediction, is now the reality - Kespa has become a major factor in the SC2 scene. A piece of the landscape which was missing before.
Sure, calling the older SC2 scene "a farce" may have been too much, but at the same time, the relevancy of "before Kespa" and "after Kespa" titles can now be questioned to some extent. We could argue it was easier to win in the past.
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On March 10 2013 20:03 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 18:16 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 17:56 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 17:42 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 16:04 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 15:46 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 15:22 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. excellent post, well said. i would venture further and say that the extent of kespa's claim on the definition of 'the best' is still not fully determined. proleague's full transition to sc2 only happened december of last year. before that, kespa's performance in sc2 was severely hampered by the fact that they had to play broodwar as well. roro's accomplishment here is just the beginning. And if you saw the level of BW games during that season, it was pretty obvious that a majority of the time was spent on SC2. and the 1st full sc2 proleague did start december of last year. i didn't say they didn't practice sc2 before this. conjecture. each player had to play broodwar and sc2 alternatively every time he is fielded, if i remember correctly. what makes you think they'd spend most of their time on sc2 only? Because of how the matches worked. Althought it was split between BW and SC2, if one team won the BW matches and the other won the SC2 matches, the ACE match was always SC2. So from a strategic perspective, it simply made more sense to focus on SC2 more. Especially for the Ace players. Because you can technically win the entire league without winning a single BW game. Again, I am sure that players still practiced BW since it would be better to not have to go to Ace. But I am sure the higher percentage of the practice them would be spent on SC2. Plus everyone knew it was the end of BW, so that gave an evn bigger incentive to get a bigger head start on SC2. Jangbi also mentioned that he got a later start compare to everyone else due to being in finals of the last BW OSL. yeah, that makes sense. the point, however, is that the kespa guys have far less experience in sc2 than the non-kespa guys. my point still stands. we will just see what happens in the coming gsl seasons. my money's on kespa tearing it up for sure. never been this excited about sc2 before I am pretty sure the head start is pretty much mute at this point. I know a lot of people like to bring up the 2 year head start, but it is not like Kespa pros had to re-learn the meta get from GSL Open Seasons to now. Most korean pros said it would take 6 months and we are pretty much past that point now. meh, i don't agree there are still a good number of kespa pros who have yet to really find their groove in sc2. we shall see
And some BW pros already retired instead of switching as well. I mean that is to be expected. Even if they kept on playing BW, people do drop off (due to age, motivation, etc).
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Boring. SC2 is so boring. Gotta go leave that game.
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30 minutes of broodling on broodling action . . .
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On March 10 2013 22:10 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched. The average SC2 fan at the time did not even suspect there is another relevant scene - so it was needed to be talked more about that by those who realized it (they were definitely not the majority). See that's the difference - in this case we actually have already a fact: a won title, not theory about it. What sounded before like only a (reasonable) prediction, is now the reality - Kespa has become a major factor in the SC2 scene. A piece of the landscape which was missing before. Sure, calling the older SC2 scene "a farce" may have been too much, but at the same time, the relevancy of "before Kespa" and "after Kespa" titles can now be questioned to some extent. We could argue it was easier to win in the past.
I am not sure I would consider people who visit TL an average SC2 fan. People here probably knew more about BW then most. And consider that most of the SC2 pros that were successful when the article was written were former BW pros, of course everyone would expect Kespa pros to have success when they switched.
What most people had problems with is that the non-Kespa pros would be dominated by the Kespa pros since their records in BW were poor (Nestea, MC, etc). And with Roro being the first to win a GSL, it has already proven the article wrong. Because its entire premise was that S class players in BW would be S class players in SC2, A teamers would be A teamers and B teamers would be B teamers. Which we obviously don't see right now. We might see someone like Flash win a GSL. But it doesn't mean JD, Bisu, Stork, etc would find the same level of success. And some A teamers and B teamer (both Kespa and players that switch earlier) might be the S class players of SC2. Or couple years down the line, it might be 14-15 year olds who never played BW competitively and started on SC2 only.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On March 10 2013 22:10 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched. The average SC2 fan at the time did not even suspect there is another relevant scene - so it was needed to be talked more about that by those who realized it (they were definitely not the majority). See that's the difference - in this case we actually have already a fact: a won title, not theory about it. What sounded before like only a (reasonable) prediction, is now the reality - Kespa has become a major factor in the SC2 scene. A piece of the landscape which was missing before. Sure, calling the older SC2 scene "a farce" may have been too much, but at the same time, the relevancy of "before Kespa" and "after Kespa" titles can now be questioned to some extent. We could argue it was easier to win in the past.
the prediction was not that kespa would become a major factor, it would become the unquestioned dominant factor very soon as it switched
of course titles are harder to get over time. i could say mvp's first title was much easier to get than his most recent one. players improve over time, and as new, better players come in the level of play improves, and not because kespa is here or otherwise
On March 10 2013 22:06 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 22:00 opterown wrote:On March 10 2013 21:33 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched. lol. we also can't know if a flying half-pig, half-fish animal exists somewhere in the universe. see how stupid this argument gets? it only becomes stupid if people aren't at least trying to let go of their biases. claims like that don't even make sense. there is no reason to think the giraffes would have a major impact in the broodwar scene, and i don't think even the giraffes themselves would claim otherwise. weren't grubby and moon the top wc3 players? what were their results in sc2? i'm assuming giraffes = wc3 pros.
weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they? i can make stupid arguments too. the difference is that i know these arguments are stupid. polt and stephano, probably the two best ex-wc3-turned-sc2 pros, were not relevant in wc3.
different games, different times, and different mindsets. some things carry over, like hard work or dedication, but there is no intrinsic superiority involved
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On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 22:10 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched. The average SC2 fan at the time did not even suspect there is another relevant scene - so it was needed to be talked more about that by those who realized it (they were definitely not the majority). See that's the difference - in this case we actually have already a fact: a won title, not theory about it. What sounded before like only a (reasonable) prediction, is now the reality - Kespa has become a major factor in the SC2 scene. A piece of the landscape which was missing before. Sure, calling the older SC2 scene "a farce" may have been too much, but at the same time, the relevancy of "before Kespa" and "after Kespa" titles can now be questioned to some extent. We could argue it was easier to win in the past. the prediction was not that kespa would become a major factor, it would become the unquestioned dominant factor very soon as it switched of course titles are easier to get after time. i could say mvp's first title was much easier to get than his most recent one. players improve over time, and as new, better players come in the level of play improves, and not because kespa is here or otherwise Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 22:06 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 22:00 opterown wrote:On March 10 2013 21:33 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched. lol. we also can't know if a flying half-pig, half-fish animal exists somewhere in the universe. see how stupid this argument gets? it only becomes stupid if people aren't at least trying to let go of their biases. claims like that don't even make sense. there is no reason to think the giraffes would have a major impact in the broodwar scene, and i don't think even the giraffes themselves would claim otherwise. weren't grubby and moon the top wc3 players? what were their results in sc2? i'm assuming giraffes = wc3 pros. weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they? i can make stupid arguments too. the difference is that i know these arguments are stupid. polt and stephano, probably the two best ex-wc3-turned-sc2 pros, were not relevant in wc3. different games, different times, and different mindsets. some things carry over, like hard work or dedication, but there is no intrinsic superiority involved
yet another argument i would back away from. agree to disagree
i know i would enjoy the coming months/years of sc2 and that's all that matters.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On March 10 2013 22:30 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote:On March 10 2013 22:10 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched. The average SC2 fan at the time did not even suspect there is another relevant scene - so it was needed to be talked more about that by those who realized it (they were definitely not the majority). See that's the difference - in this case we actually have already a fact: a won title, not theory about it. What sounded before like only a (reasonable) prediction, is now the reality - Kespa has become a major factor in the SC2 scene. A piece of the landscape which was missing before. Sure, calling the older SC2 scene "a farce" may have been too much, but at the same time, the relevancy of "before Kespa" and "after Kespa" titles can now be questioned to some extent. We could argue it was easier to win in the past. the prediction was not that kespa would become a major factor, it would become the unquestioned dominant factor very soon as it switched of course titles are easier to get after time. i could say mvp's first title was much easier to get than his most recent one. players improve over time, and as new, better players come in the level of play improves, and not because kespa is here or otherwise On March 10 2013 22:06 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 22:00 opterown wrote:On March 10 2013 21:33 theMagus wrote:On March 10 2013 20:29 Zealously wrote:On March 10 2013 19:22 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 14:00 Ace Frehley wrote:On March 10 2013 11:27 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 02:12 1Dhalism wrote:
What's happening now is expected by everyone in SC2 community. It's a given, the default setting.
Broodwar progamers are talented individuals and will be winning GSL eventually? Well, duh. The original article was exaggerated on many statements, but even this part, on which you say everyone agrees (they actually did not at the time: there were many claims that all Kespa players will just fail for a very very long time) is something that means the competition in SC2 was - if not a farce - at least incomplete. A major portion of RTS talent was missing from the SC2 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of SC2. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of StarCraft that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means. Original exaggerations aside, this is now really proven to be true. The SC2 scene was indeed incomplete. And many SC2 fans did not even realize it. So can we say that a good chunk of BW history was a farce because the Giraffes from WC3 were not playing in it? If the Giraffes at some point came and started winning titles alongside the previously best BW players - yes, we could say the scene was incomplete. But the thing is that people have been saying things like that about the BW superstars since (before) the elephant article was posted. By the same logic, we must assume that BW did not have a complete scene because we cannot know what would have happened had the Giraffes switched. lol. we also can't know if a flying half-pig, half-fish animal exists somewhere in the universe. see how stupid this argument gets? it only becomes stupid if people aren't at least trying to let go of their biases. claims like that don't even make sense. there is no reason to think the giraffes would have a major impact in the broodwar scene, and i don't think even the giraffes themselves would claim otherwise. weren't grubby and moon the top wc3 players? what were their results in sc2? i'm assuming giraffes = wc3 pros. weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they? i can make stupid arguments too. the difference is that i know these arguments are stupid. polt and stephano, probably the two best ex-wc3-turned-sc2 pros, were not relevant in wc3. different games, different times, and different mindsets. some things carry over, like hard work or dedication, but there is no intrinsic superiority involved yet another argument i would back away from. agree to disagree i know i would enjoy the coming months/years of sc2 and that's all that matters.
yup, fair enough. me too, here's to good play in years to come!
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On March 10 2013 22:22 vthree wrote:
I am not sure I would consider people who visit TL an average SC2 fan. They(we) are not. We are something like 20-30k, at most 50k, and the large SC2 population is in the low millions. There's a huge number of them who don't know yet that the GSL exists. (:
On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote:
the prediction was not that kespa would become a major factor, it would become the unquestioned dominant factor very soon as it switched I know, at face value that prediction was clearly incorrect. Some meaning of that article persists though - that the scene was incomplete.
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Roro is great. I feel like Fantasy will be the best KESPA player. His recent games are amazing.
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On March 10 2013 22:14 boxerfred wrote:
Boring. SC2 is so boring. Gotta go leave that game.
Did you watch IEM? HotS is making SC2 a lot more fun as a spectator.
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On March 10 2013 22:38 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 22:22 vthree wrote:
I am not sure I would consider people who visit TL an average SC2 fan. They(we) are not. We are something like 20-30k, at most 50k, and the large SC2 population is in the low millions. There's a huge number of them who don't know yet that the GSL exists. (: Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote:
the prediction was not that kespa would become a major factor, it would become the unquestioned dominant factor very soon as it switched I know, at face value that prediction was clearly incorrect. Some meaning of that article persists though - that the scene was incomplete.
And I say that saying the scene was "incomplete" just because there were good players playing a different game of the same genre is idiotic. It would be nice if you didn't ignore my previous post, unless it was just too hard for you to respond to. So I guess the LoL scene is incomplete because of Dota 2, the CS 1.6 scene was incomplete because of Quake and other FPSes, the list goes on. All you're doing is dealing in hypotheticals, which is stupid.
Let's try to make this as clear as possible for you. You said that we weren't actually seeing the best of SC2 back in the day because there was a bunch of untapped SC2 talent playing a different game. Let's apply this shitty logic more broadly and see how stupid it is. I am going to take exactly what you said and replace words, while keeping the core logic intact.
"A major portion of acting talent was missing from the movie scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of movie acting. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of acting (theater) that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means."
"A major portion of FPS talent was missing from the CS 1.6 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of CS 1.6. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there are whole other scenes of FPSes that can claim their stakes on what "the best" really means."
"A major portion of LoL talent was missing from the LoL scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of LoL. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there are whole other scenes of MOBAs that can claim their stakes on what "the best" really means."
Your logic singlehandedly undermines the accomplishments of the respective participants of almost any activity, because, as you say, if a bunch of people are competing in activity X, and there are other talented people doing similar activities Y and Z, then the best of activity X aren't actually "the best" because who knows what would happen if people doing activities Y and Z also switched to doing activity X.
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On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote:
weren't bisu, jaedong and stork some of the top bw players? haven't exactly done much in sc2, have they?
If you look at their age and general career arc, it becomes pretty obvious that they would have fallen off even if they were still playing Brood War (in fact they arguably have over the last BW season or so). While some players were able to bounce back after their prime, I don't think anybody generally saw Bisu, JD and Stork as OSL/MSL favorites in the last year of BW.
You could say the same about WC3 players. Grubby is 26 and married, him not being able to win championships in a scene where there are hundreds of players with a full-time practice regimen doesn't really have anything to do with his transition to SC2. Whereas some of the players that were young during WC3 era and ambitious enough to commit to being a full time SC2 pro obviously have much better results than Grubby or Moon.
At the end of the day, harder working players will inevitably come out on top. And among those, those that use their training time optimally will come out on top. If Bisu, JD, Stork, Grubby and Moon were as passionate and hungry as they were 3-5 years ago, they would easily be championship contenders now. But it's pretty normal that they're not.
The point of Elephants article isn't that they're going to be dominant because they were Brood War progamers, it's that they're going to be dominant because they are progamers (arguably the only ones in the true sense of the term). They work the hardest in a very strict, structured and organized environment.
If ESF or WC3 or foreign players matched that level of professional approach and training, nobody would even think of questioning their potential to remain on or reach the top. As it is though, I still don't see anything wrong with the assumption that Proleague teams will soon have most (and probably all) of the top players. It only depends on your interpretation of "soon".
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On March 11 2013 04:55 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 22:38 figq wrote:On March 10 2013 22:22 vthree wrote:
I am not sure I would consider people who visit TL an average SC2 fan. They(we) are not. We are something like 20-30k, at most 50k, and the large SC2 population is in the low millions. There's a huge number of them who don't know yet that the GSL exists. (: On March 10 2013 22:23 opterown wrote:
the prediction was not that kespa would become a major factor, it would become the unquestioned dominant factor very soon as it switched I know, at face value that prediction was clearly incorrect. Some meaning of that article persists though - that the scene was incomplete. And I say that saying the scene was "incomplete" just because there were good players playing a different game of the same genre is idiotic. It would be nice if you didn't ignore my previous post, unless it was just too hard for you to respond to. So I guess the LoL scene is incomplete because of Dota 2, the CS 1.6 scene was incomplete because of Quake and other FPSes, the list goes on. All you're doing is dealing in hypotheticals, which is stupid. Let's try to make this as clear as possible for you. You said that we weren't actually seeing the best of SC2 back in the day because there was a bunch of untapped SC2 talent playing a different game. Let's apply this shitty logic more broadly and see how stupid it is. I am going to take exactly what you said and replace words, while keeping the core logic intact. "A major portion of acting talent was missing from the movie scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of movie acting. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there's a whole other scene of acting (theater) that can claim its stake on what "the best" really means." "A major portion of FPS talent was missing from the CS 1.6 scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of CS 1.6. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there are whole other scenes of FPSes that can claim their stakes on what "the best" really means.""A major portion of LoL talent was missing from the LoL scene, which meant we were not seeing really "the best" of LoL. We were crowning "the best", and ignoring the fact that there are whole other scenes of MOBAs that can claim their stakes on what "the best" really means."Your logic singlehandedly undermines the accomplishments of the respective participants of almost any activity, because, as you say, if a bunch of people are competing in activity X, and there are other talented people doing similar activities Y and Z, then the best of activity X aren't actually "the best" because who knows what would happen if people doing activities Y and Z also switched to doing activity X.
Your analogy falls down because you assume X and Y are unrelated groups, and being "the best" is a deliberate call.
Generally speaking, the CS and Halo scenes, the Smash and Street Fighter scenes, and other "similar" scenes developed in parallel. This is not the case with the BW and SCII scenes, where one of them pretty much branched off the other from the bottom of the ranks.
It was well stablished that the Korean Brood War was the single most skillfull and competitive RTS scene in the world. Thats what made them "the best", rather than a deliberate call between game fanboys.
It was also well stablished that within the Korean RTS scene, KeSPA teams had the best players. Either because of talent, hard work, or both.
WCG was a yearly reminder of how far Korea was compared to the rest of the world. The Courage tournament was proof that KeSPA had the best players within Korea.
At the time the Elephant article was written, the Starcraft II eSports scene was mainly made out of former BW players: the foreigners who were crushed in WCG, and the Koreans who struggled to stay competitive.
If you know where a lot of these players came from, and saw them compete prior to SCII, you don't need to be a genius to deduce that moving to the new game while you can is the smartest move. Because learning from history, its also only a matter of time before the foreigner scene becomes competitively irrelevant (this is what I consider the other Elephant in the Room).
The elephant article also explains why KeSPa players are the best: hard work and dedication. There is a whole section explaining this, but it gets lost with the constant bickering on specific players and counting months. The article singles out S-class players, but not because they will magically transition into SCII S-class. Flash and Jaedong were the epitome the epitome of KeSPA work ethic. Fantasy was the best example of a team working together to dissect an opponent.
If anything, Roro winning GSL is a great example of how a player can reach the top with both hard work and help from his coaches, team, and other team's players. From the interview, you can see there was a lot of preparation.
The Elephant article was brutally written, but it was honest and based on facts. It was incendiary because it revealed an inconvenient truth to the hordes of new TL posters who were oblivious or simply refused to acknowledge eSports were a reality before and without Starcraft II and Blizzard's intervention.
On the other hand, the article did not consider other factors. KeSPAs delayed adoption of SCII too much, first by Blizzard and then hybrid Proleague. There is also a new generational transition that brought extremely talented players like Life. I wouldn't be surprised if under the right circumstances, Life would make it to be a top BW player.
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