On July 03 2012 10:04 sparklyresidue wrote: I feel like I haven't seen a 2rax successfully defended in a long time. I'm sure I'm just forgetting... but jesus they are so effective.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well. That being said, you have to take the map and the player into consideration. Map: Entombed Valley. Player: MKP. What does MKP absolutely love and always does on Entombed Valley. Yes that's right, the 4 rax into marine marauder mech style that he just used against coca. Basically every player has a certain strategy they almost always use on a specific map against different players. Please note, hes been using that build since before the patch. Therefore, there is about an 80-85% chance that he wouldn't have opened helions anyways, especially if you consider that entombed isn't the best map for reactor helions, and thus, the queen buff was NOT a huge factor in coca's baneling flank being effective and completely eating mkp's army alive.
On July 03 2012 10:04 sparklyresidue wrote: I feel like I haven't seen a 2rax successfully defended in a long time. I'm sure I'm just forgetting... but jesus they are so effective.
I remember one of the up/down days where Curious defended 3 rax like 3 games in a row to get first in the group, was pretty funny.
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well. That being said, you have to take the map and the player into consideration. Map: Entombed Valley. Player: MKP. What does MKP absolutely love and always does on Entombed Valley. Yes that's right, the 4 rax into marine marauder mech style that he just used against coca. Basically every player has a certain strategy they almost always use on a specific map against different players. Please note, hes been using that build since before the patch. Therefore, there is about an 80-85% chance that he wouldn't have opened helions anyways, especially if you consider that entombed isn't the best map for reactor helions, and thus, the queen buff was NOT a huge factor in coca's baneling flank being effective and completely eating mkp's army alive.
wow, i love your analysis of mkp and how you know all his builds.
EPT
