The time has come for our twenty-fourth IGN Pro League Fight Club! This is a weekly king of the hill showmatch series. Basically, there will be a 1 vs. 1 best of 9 showmatch each and every week, where the winner will earn a $500 prize and a $100 bounty on their head. For example, if a player wins three weeks in a row they will have earned $1,500 and a $300 bounty. If a NEW challenger defeats him, they will earn $500 for the showmatch, take the $300 bounty home, and have a new $100 bounty placed on their head for each week that they win. (Similar to IPL Team Arena, but without the teams!)
When: Monday, Jul 02 11:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) (we will also broadcast the match repeatedly afterwards!)
MarineKing has already taken down two amazing players in Liquid`TaeJa and EG.JYP. His combined record over two weeks is 10-3! This week, he will face a GSL Zerg mainstay, SlayerS`CoCa! Does CoCa have the zerginess required to topple MKP and claim his bounty? Tune in to find out!
Wow, should be a good match, CoCa 2-0'd MKP at the 2nd TSL4 qualifier, maybe he can keep up his streak . I'd still predict MKP to come away with the win though. It'll be close regardless of the victor though imo.
On July 03 2012 02:36 PhoenixVoid wrote: I think MKP is going to have a hell of a time challenging CoCa, but he is capable of beating CoCa, so I think the result will be 5-3 for MKP.
Yeah he 2oed him those were both games witha a quick pool . MKP got this :D
this will be a good one. Hoping marineking can pull this one out even though he claims his TvZ is really bad lately. He beat some good zergs in the IPL5 qualifiers
Wow, I went here to say I thought that it would be a much closer match than previously but MKP would probably win 5-3, and everyone else thinks atleast the score is gonna be the same :D
MKP going to be using this as practice i think. I see lots of triple CC builds, then its hard to predict, if the Zerg isn't aggressive he will lose to 3 CC if not he wins comfertably. Im still leaning towards coca though. 5-2 6queens > 3CC? :W
On July 03 2012 05:20 Pandemona wrote: MKP going to be using this as practice i think. I see lots of triple CC builds, then its hard to predict, if the Zerg isn't aggressive he will lose to 3 CC if not he wins comfertably. Im still leaning towards coca though. 5-2 6queens > 3CC? :W
triple CC's? that so old school. Quad CC is the new fad in Korea atm
youve got to be kidding me right now. lmao. mkp had easy opponents everytime. he first played liquid taeja who's 2nd weakest match up is tvt. then he played eg jyp who's worse match up is pvt. now he plays slayers coca who's horrible at zvt
On July 03 2012 07:48 theforsakenbro wrote: youve got to be kidding me right now. lmao. mkp had easy opponents everytime. he first played liquid taeja who's 2nd weakest match up is tvt. then he played eg jyp who's worse match up is pvt. now he plays slayers coca who's horrible at zvt
Taeja did knock Mvp (reigning champ btw) out Code S... and MKP himself last season, and totally owned MKP last year. Not exactly a pushover. Coca just won OSL qualifier, beating SuperNoVa and aLive,definitely not a gimme.
wow coca threw that game so hard with that overcommittal. I don't understand why zergs refuse to transition out of roaches against mkp when his army is basically pure marauder tank medivac
On July 03 2012 07:48 theforsakenbro wrote: youve got to be kidding me right now. lmao. mkp had easy opponents everytime. he first played liquid taeja who's 2nd weakest match up is tvt. then he played eg jyp who's worse match up is pvt. now he plays slayers coca who's horrible at zvt
The thing is that with Taeja TvT is also his 2nd best matchup.
Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
Dont forget Symbol.
yeah symbol too but he barely beats mkp. i still think drg is the better zerg
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
Dont forget Symbol.
yeah symbol too but he barely beats mkp. i still think drg is the better zerg
On July 03 2012 08:27 Shellshock1122 wrote: How did game 1 go? I missed it
CoCa went for lair tech high eco play against MKP's rine rauder tank medivac composition, he rolled it with a 50 supply lead then overcommitted and didn't expand behind it, his BL tech was too late and MKP countered at max.
On July 03 2012 08:27 Shellshock1122 wrote: How did game 1 go? I missed it
CoCa went for lair tech high eco play against MKP's rine rauder tank medivac composition, he rolled it with a 50 supply lead then overcommitted and didn't expand behind it, his BL tech was too late and MKP countered at max.
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
Dont forget Symbol.
yeah symbol too but he barely beats mkp. i still think drg is the better zerg
symbol dominated mkp in gsl t.t
out of the five games they played, three were very close, one was domination (but it was metropolis so haha) and one was a BO win (entombed both all inned)
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
Dont forget Symbol.
yeah symbol too but he barely beats mkp. i still think drg is the better zerg
symbol dominated mkp in gsl t.t
well some games he did. I just remember daybreak where it was pretty close
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
Dont forget Symbol.
yeah symbol too but he barely beats mkp. i still think drg is the better zerg
symbol dominated mkp in gsl t.t
out of the five games they played, three were very close, one was domination (but it was metropolis so haha) and one was a BO win (entombed both all inned)
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
Dont forget Symbol.
yeah symbol too but he barely beats mkp. i still think drg is the better zerg
symbol dominated mkp in gsl t.t
out of the five games they played, three were very close, one was domination (but it was metropolis so haha) and one was a BO win (entombed both all inned)
haha can always count on u to justify his losses as much as possible
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
Dont forget Symbol.
yeah symbol too but he barely beats mkp. i still think drg is the better zerg
symbol dominated mkp in gsl t.t
out of the five games they played, three were very close, one was domination (but it was metropolis so haha) and one was a BO win (entombed both all inned)
haha can always count on u to justify his losses as much as possible
no different to you fans will be fans, but i think i'm pretty fair with my evaluation
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
Dont forget Symbol.
yeah symbol too but he barely beats mkp. i still think drg is the better zerg
symbol dominated mkp in gsl t.t
out of the five games they played, three were very close, one was domination (but it was metropolis so haha) and one was a BO win (entombed both all inned)
haha can always count on u to justify his losses as much as possible
no different to you fans will be fans, but i think i'm pretty fair with my evaluation
rather fair. on the flip side of that coin that would make about 2/3 of mma's tvz losses BO losses as well
On July 03 2012 08:24 aznball123 wrote: Damn, MKP takes game 1. Coca's army looked so puny even though he had same supplies and I think he should've forced MKP to engage on the creep instead of being more aggressive. go coca!! you can dooooooo it.
tahts b/c roaches cost so much supply relative to their cost. he made some big mistakes like getting banes stuck behind roaches, losing infestors, late 4th base, late hive tech. that's why DRG is the only one who beats mkp in tvz right now b/c idt any other zergs don't make those mistakes
Dont forget Symbol.
yeah symbol too but he barely beats mkp. i still think drg is the better zerg
symbol dominated mkp in gsl t.t
out of the five games they played, three were very close, one was domination (but it was metropolis so haha) and one was a BO win (entombed both all inned)
haha can always count on u to justify his losses as much as possible
no different to you fans will be fans, but i think i'm pretty fair with my evaluation
rather fair. on the flip side of that coin that would make about 2/3 of mma's tvz losses BO losses as well
recently, TvZ is a lot of BO wins with zergs punishing terrans who try to be as greedy as them, so I agree.
Hell yeah COCA! He is back alright, back in great shape! I love his creep spread though, even though MKP pushed it back all the way, he still plopped all those tumors out like nothing. :D
Fundamental problem with corruptor/infestor/brood is that MKP has to over-invest in AA in order to deal with it, the ling switch is almost always a kill-move.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Coca just qualified for OSL so he must be getting pretty good again
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
No one really knows where coca is at atm, but if he is as good as before he got removed from GSL, then yeah he has a good chance of winning
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
No he's just gonna win because *insert balance whine here*
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Coca just qualified for OSL so he must be getting pretty good again
I don't really think he ever stopped being pretty good, to be honest.
On July 03 2012 09:03 Talack wrote: Fundamental problem with corruptor/infestor/brood is that MKP has to over-invest in AA in order to deal with it, the ling switch is almost always a kill-move.
Same problem Terran used to have with Colossi and Protoss.
On July 03 2012 09:03 MCDayC wrote: MKP threw that game away so quickly in the midgame, he gave the zerg such a huge advantage going into the final battle.
what? im pretty sure coca was the one about to throw the game away by being so passive, but his spine crawler trick was enough to overrun mkp when hunterseeker wasnt ready
I really wish they'd change the range of seeker missile or the amount of energy needed to cast it. It's range + need to upgrade + amount of energy is really prohibitive.
I don't mean this to be balance whine or even to say MKP would've won that with a seeker missile buff. I just think it'd be more fun to watch TvZs/ZvTs like that if that spell was more viable.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
He was one of the top players before he forfeit code S because of the throwing game to buyn in a tournament thing
On July 03 2012 09:03 MCDayC wrote: MKP threw that game away so quickly in the midgame, he gave the zerg such a huge advantage going into the final battle.
what? im pretty sure coca was the one about to throw the game away by being so passive, but his spine crawler trick was enough to overrun mkp when hunterseeker wasnt ready
Zergs throw away TvZ's by being passive? good one.
CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
No he's just gonna win because *insert balance whine here*
He did really really well until him and Byun (GhostKing) got suspended for a few months because of a "Match fixing" thing that happened. Before he got suspended, he had a really impressive run in MLG Anaheim 2011, and he was always looked at as someone who had a ton of potential.
Guess him and Byun spent a lot of their off time practicing rather than participating in tournaments.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Coca just qualified for OSL so he must be getting pretty good again
I don't really think he ever stopped being pretty good, to be honest.
In one of the CSN videos he's shown being ranked at #1GM... recently qualified for the OSL... was is code S before sacrificing his seed. I think he's definitely a threat even if he's not as highly considered as MKP.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Coca just qualified for OSL so he must be getting pretty good again
I don't really think he ever stopped being pretty good, to be honest.
He looked a little shaky in his first few appearances after he came back but it could have been nerves from being out of the spotlight for a few months
i vote: -remove atlantis spaceship -remove whirlwind -remove metropolis -remove cloud kingdom -add steppes of war
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
i doubt many consider coca better in absolute skill. it's hard to say where he is.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Chantastic wrote: He did really really well until him and Byun (GhostKing) got suspended for a year because of a "Match fixing" thing that happened. Before he got suspended, he had a really impressive run in MLG Anaheim 2011, and he was always looked at as someone who had a ton of potential.
Guess him and Byun spent a lot of their off time practicing rather than participating in tournaments.
On July 03 2012 07:48 theforsakenbro wrote: youve got to be kidding me right now. lmao. mkp had easy opponents everytime. he first played liquid taeja who's 2nd weakest match up is tvt. then he played eg jyp who's worse match up is pvt. now he plays slayers coca who's horrible at zvt
I always remembered CoCa as that godly ZvP player with a ridiculous winrate (what was it, like over 90%?) but I never remembered his ZvT to be as strong. Then again, I guess staying at SlayerS gives you a whole lot of Terran players to practice against.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Chantastic wrote: He did really really well until him and Byun (GhostKing) got suspended for a year because of a "Match fixing" thing that happened. Before he got suspended, he had a really impressive run in MLG Anaheim 2011, and he was always looked at as someone who had a ton of potential.
Guess him and Byun spent a lot of their off time practicing rather than participating in tournaments.
Wasn't it 6 months ?
Whether or not he's right, it felt like a year T_T. Coca...
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
On July 03 2012 09:07 opterown wrote: i vote: -remove atlantis spaceship -remove whirlwind -remove metropolis -remove cloud kingdom -add steppes of war
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
i doubt many consider coca better in absolute skill. it's hard to say where he is.
hehehe I think it would be pretty funny to see some of the old maps with the current meta and patch changes.
Anybody else wanna see them bring back Blistering Sands? No? How about Desert Oasis?
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
No he's just gonna win because *insert balance whine here*
He did really really well until him and Byun (GhostKing) got suspended for a year because of a "Match fixing" thing that happened. Before he got suspended, he had a really impressive run in MLG Anaheim 2011, and he was always looked at as someone who had a ton of potential.
Guess him and Byun spent a lot of their off time practicing rather than participating in tournaments.
On July 03 2012 09:06 aznball123 wrote: Of course he is, first OSL champion incoming.. lol kidding. But I still believe he is Code S material.
No belief neccesary, his gameplay proves he's Code S level.
Even as a Coca fan, I have to admit that his play has been inconsistent. He has had great games, and not so great games.
Also, even though such a statistic is meaningless when matched against MKP, I would like to mention that Coca had a 100% winrate against Protoss in the GSL in 2011, when he was Code S for multiple seasons. He's good.
On July 03 2012 09:08 Sitinte wrote: I always remembered CoCa as that godly ZvP player with a ridiculous winrate (what was it, like over 90%?) but I never remembered his ZvT to be as strong. Then again, I guess staying at SlayerS gives you a whole lot of Terran players to practice against.
iirc he had a 100% match or series zvp winrate in GSL. However, this was mostly because he combined amazing mechanics with strange builds and styles, specifically stuff like Bane Busts and builds that denied the Protoss's third.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
I think MKP shouldve thrown down PDDs instead of waiting for HSM to finish. He lost so many vikings and ravens by doing so, and then started to win the air battles when he laid down a single PDD despite having almost no vikings left at that point.
On July 03 2012 09:06 aznball123 wrote: Of course he is, first OSL champion incoming.. lol kidding. But I still believe he is Code S material.
No belief neccesary, his gameplay proves he's Code S level.
Even as a Coca fan, I have to admit that his play has been inconsistent. He has had great games, and not so great games.
Also, even though such a statistic is meaningless when matched against MKP, I would like to mention that Coca had a 100% winrate against Protoss in the GSL in 2011, when he was Code S for multiple seasons. He's good.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Chantastic wrote: He did really really well until him and Byun (GhostKing) got suspended for a year because of a "Match fixing" thing that happened. Before he got suspended, he had a really impressive run in MLG Anaheim 2011, and he was always looked at as someone who had a ton of potential.
Guess him and Byun spent a lot of their off time practicing rather than participating in tournaments.
Wasn't it 6 months ?
Ah, I looked it up, the coaches of both parties involved said whenever both players had the right "mentality" again. Source here. But it's been about 8ish months, so quite a long time.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
he'll 5-3
I think with the balance as it is, 5-2 or 5-1, without balance as it is, it would be 5-3 at least if not MKP winning 5-3 5-2.
However with Coca ZvT as is and ZvT in general as is I'm staying with 5-2 or 5-1, happy to eat my words though.
On July 03 2012 09:08 Sitinte wrote: I always remembered CoCa as that godly ZvP player with a ridiculous winrate (what was it, like over 90%?) but I never remembered his ZvT to be as strong. Then again, I guess staying at SlayerS gives you a whole lot of Terran players to practice against.
iirc he had a 100% match or series zvp winrate in GSL. However, this was mostly because he combined amazing mechanics with strange builds and styles, specifically stuff like Bane Busts and builds that denied the Protoss's third.
What I remember most was the mass overseer style to keep P from reinforcing xD
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in ESV
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
he'll 5-3
I think with the balance as it is, 5-2 or 5-1, without balance as it is, it would be 5-3 at least if not MKP winning 5-3 5-2.
However with Coca ZvT as is and ZvT in general as is I'm staying with 5-2 or 5-1, happy to eat my words though.
5-3 with patch, without patch i'd say MKP edges him out 5-4 or 5-3 maybe. =]
On July 03 2012 09:06 aznball123 wrote: Of course he is, first OSL champion incoming.. lol kidding. But I still believe he is Code S material.
No belief neccesary, his gameplay proves he's Code S level.
Even as a Coca fan, I have to admit that his play has been inconsistent. He has had great games, and not so great games.
Also, even though such a statistic is meaningless when matched against MKP, I would like to mention that Coca had a 100% winrate against Protoss in the GSL in 2011, when he was Code S for multiple seasons. He's good.
Oz had near 100% PvP for a while, too :p haha
Alas, Coca's ZvP used to be untouchable, now it is only merely pretty good
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in another.
3 bo series after this. Nice.
Just like mvp wins against mkp, while mma wins against mvp, then mkp wins against mma. Says nothing. Overall results is a different story.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in another.
3 bo series after this. Nice.
Just like mvp wins against mkp, while mma wins against mvp, then mkp wins against mma. Says nothing. Overall results is a different story.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
he'll 5-3
I think with the balance as it is, 5-2 or 5-1, without balance as it is, it would be 5-3 at least if not MKP winning 5-3 5-2.
However with Coca ZvT as is and ZvT in general as is I'm staying with 5-2 or 5-1, happy to eat my words though.
5-3 with patch, without patch i'd say MKP edges him out 5-4 or 5-3 maybe. =]
On July 03 2012 09:07 opterown wrote: i vote: -remove atlantis spaceship -remove whirlwind -remove metropolis -remove cloud kingdom -add steppes of war
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
i doubt many consider coca better in absolute skill. it's hard to say where he is.
the maps are really the reason why so many korean terrans get owned by zerg.
ofc every torunament wants to use huge maps for long macro games but terran doesnt have his shining moments in the late game - so they have to apply a lot of pressure in the early stages. but by using metropolis, daybreak, spacebear in every tournament terrans cant do what they have to do and lose.
smaller maps and everything would be finde but no more insta 3base
On July 03 2012 09:03 MCDayC wrote: MKP threw that game away so quickly in the midgame, he gave the zerg such a huge advantage going into the final battle.
what? im pretty sure coca was the one about to throw the game away by being so passive, but his spine crawler trick was enough to overrun mkp when hunterseeker wasnt ready
Zergs throw away TvZ's by being passive? good one.
yeah.... letting mkp take a 4th and 5th base after losing his entire army is kind of throwing away a game.... yeah...
On July 03 2012 09:06 Chantastic wrote: He did really really well until him and Byun (GhostKing) got suspended for a year because of a "Match fixing" thing that happened. Before he got suspended, he had a really impressive run in MLG Anaheim 2011, and he was always looked at as someone who had a ton of potential.
Guess him and Byun spent a lot of their off time practicing rather than participating in tournaments.
Wasn't it 6 months ?
Ah, I looked it up, the coaches of both parties involved said whenever both players had the right "mentality" again. Source here. But it's been about 8ish months, so quite a long time.
Naa it was way shorter. I had to check it because couldn't remember how long the ban was.
They got banned Nov 15th 2011
Buyn back in line up feb 18th 2012 Coca march 10th 2012
So it wasn't that long but it took him couple seasons to get back into good shape.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in another.
3 bo series after this. Nice.
Just like mvp wins against mkp, while mma wins against mvp, then mkp wins against mma. Says nothing. Overall results is a different story.
MMA just 3-2 MKP in Stars War.
Don't you mean MVP > Polt > MMA > MVP? Or not?
MKP has 70% winrate vs MMA in Korea and 57% international, so It's not completely one-sided but there is an advantage.
MarineKing really isn't playing half as amazingly as normal this series. Keeps slipping in macro and his micro hasn't been as good as it usually is either.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in another.
3 bo series after this. Nice.
Just like mvp wins against mkp, while mma wins against mvp, then mkp wins against mma. Says nothing. Overall results is a different story.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Chantastic wrote: He did really really well until him and Byun (GhostKing) got suspended for a year because of a "Match fixing" thing that happened. Before he got suspended, he had a really impressive run in MLG Anaheim 2011, and he was always looked at as someone who had a ton of potential.
Guess him and Byun spent a lot of their off time practicing rather than participating in tournaments.
Wasn't it 6 months ?
Ah, I looked it up, the coaches of both parties involved said whenever both players had the right "mentality" again. Source here. But it's been about 8ish months, so quite a long time.
Naa it was way shorter. I had to check it because couldn't remember how long the ban was.
They got banned Nov 15th 2011
Buyn back in line up feb 18th 2012 Coca march 10th 2012
So it wasn't that long but it took him couple seasons to get back to code S.
Byun's back in Code S, Coca unfortunately is still in Code B.
On July 03 2012 09:07 opterown wrote: i vote: -remove atlantis spaceship -remove whirlwind -remove metropolis -remove cloud kingdom -add steppes of war
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
i doubt many consider coca better in absolute skill. it's hard to say where he is.
the maps are really the reason why so many korean terrans get owned by zerg.
ofc every torunament wants to use huge maps for long macro games but terran doesnt have his shining moments in the late game - so they have to apply a lot of pressure in the early stages. but by using metropolis, daybreak, spacebear in every tournament terrans cant do what they have to do and lose.
smaller maps and everything would be finde but no more insta 3base
Obv the problem is that Zergs stronger econoym in early/midgame gives a much more powerful and speedier lategame. Terran lategame (endgame moreliek) is theoretically stronger but you cant ever get to it quick enough.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
he'll 5-3
I think with the balance as it is, 5-2 or 5-1, without balance as it is, it would be 5-3 at least if not MKP winning 5-3 5-2.
However with Coca ZvT as is and ZvT in general as is I'm staying with 5-2 or 5-1, happy to eat my words though.
5-3 with patch, without patch i'd say MKP edges him out 5-4 or 5-3 maybe. =]
Without Patch 5-4 either way seems most likely
remember MKP 5-2 and 4-3 DRG before patch, and DRG is a much better zerg than coca
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
compared to the likes of DRG, Symbol, yes he is an inferior zerg.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in another.
3 bo series after this. Nice.
Just like mvp wins against mkp, while mma wins against mvp, then mkp wins against mma. Says nothing. Overall results is a different story.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in another.
3 bo series after this. Nice.
Just like mvp wins against mkp, while mma wins against mvp, then mkp wins against mma. Says nothing. Overall results is a different story.
MMA just 3-2 MKP in Stars War.
Don't you mean MVP > Polt > MMA > MVP? Or not?
Check older history. You are just trying way too hard atm, i never even said coca is bad, but you are just trying to make it sound like mkp ia awful even though majority of people would say he's one of the best players atm. But keep posting nonsense if you enjoy it that much
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
well, he does have more stuff to flank with, now that he has a better economy due to the patch.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
compared to the likes of DRG, Symbol, yes he is an inferior zerg.
Under the assumption you mean varely inferior, I say, "Not really, he is doing better in some online tourneys then both of them, and he'll be back at the top of GSL soon."
Unless you mean slightly inferior, which of course he is.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
well, he does have more stuff to flank with, now that he has a better economy due to the patch.
Verrrrry nice play from CoCa, this has been a very satisfying series for a CoCa fan! Regardless of what happens in the end, CoCa has definitely set about proving his skill.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in another.
3 bo series after this. Nice.
Just like mvp wins against mkp, while mma wins against mvp, then mkp wins against mma. Says nothing. Overall results is a different story.
honestly, i dont find much merit in solely looking at the head-to-head series scores. you really have to watch the series to be able to evaluate the difference in skill. in other news, EVERYONE, mkp or mma fan, should watch the stars war 7 final series if they can find it, it was really back and forth and ridiculously high level play
On July 03 2012 09:22 WigglingSquid wrote: Fairly snappy reaction from Coca against a somewhat unusual opener/midgame (afaik). Too bad, it was a nice bo. T___T
I wouldnt say unusual, I'd say uncommon, I see Korean terrans do it sometime on stream (SOMETIMES, rarely), I saw major do it once.
I wasn't really watching, so I'm under the assumption that he went for what I caught futile glimpses of (Hellion Banshee + 1 Raven -> Heavy Mech).
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
Regardless of whether it overtly affects the games, it's definitely a bad time to be a Terran player, trying to re-figure out the game vs. Zergs. I agree.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in another.
3 bo series after this. Nice.
Just like mvp wins against mkp, while mma wins against mvp, then mkp wins against mma. Says nothing. Overall results is a different story.
honestly, i dont find much merit in solely looking at the head-to-head series scores. you really have to watch the series to be able to evaluate the difference in skill. in other news, EVERYONE, mkp or mma fan, should watch the stars war 7 final series if they can find it, it was really back and forth and ridiculously high level play
Honestly I'm not trying to claim MKP or MMA is better with that statistic I'm just saying it's not a huge defecit 2012, and yes, they are so closely tied in TvT and such high level players that they both distinguish themselves from the pack of Terrans.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
but i suppose the point also is that the queen buff allowed coca to have those numbers of ling/bane, due to the better eco and terran's inability to harass. with better harass, zerg need to produce more to defend, meaning lesser upgrades and less units/larvae
On July 03 2012 09:06 Rulker wrote: CoCa is better then MKP, regardless of the balance patch. Disregarding the fact that he lost in the only GSL qualifier he's been able to participate in since he was Temp Banned from GSL, his preformance and gameplay has been super strong, in Korean Weeklys (getting 2nd to Life) and Qualifying for OSL, and doing well in GSTL, and getting awesome results in TSL.
This post was hilarious.
I hope he 5-1's.
1 bo series = better player. Nice.
He just 2-0'd MKP in one TSL qual and 2-0'd him in another.
3 bo series after this. Nice.
Just like mvp wins against mkp, while mma wins against mvp, then mkp wins against mma. Says nothing. Overall results is a different story.
honestly, i dont find much merit in solely looking at the head-to-head series scores. you really have to watch the series to be able to evaluate the difference in skill. in other news, EVERYONE, mkp or mma fan, should watch the stars war 7 final series if they can find it, it was really back and forth and ridiculously high level play
you could also watch IPL4 MMA-MKP or the GSL up/downs too, there are many series of them
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
Queen buff allowed zerg to get stronger early D with less resources invested, and therefore they can have a stronger early economy than before (even more so with faster OL to confirm what T is doing); therefore, it snowballs from there. So the stronger economy allowed Zerg to have MORE zergling/baneling for the flanks. I'm not saying it 100% would of mattered, but it certainly did help indirectly.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
You know, I'm not one to say that Zerg or any race for that matter is OP and before I begin I would like to reiterate that I still do not think that zerg is OP; However...
This series really shows how strong Zerg have gotten after the recent buff. Many people argue whether it was a big deal or not but here's a fact. Previous to the patch it could be argued that MKP was dominating the entire scene.
Coca is good, really good, but I would think that many could agree that he is not on MKP's level and when you weigh achievements and results that decision can clearly be made.
Coca is absolutely rolling all over MKP now.
High level Zergs lately have been using the excuse that Terrans are not adapting or experimenting with new strategies to combat the recent buff; Yet, MKP has been trying some really intricate stuff in this series including mech with no success.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I really don't want to get into the balance discussion, but I feel I have to point out that you are missing the relevance of a buff (like the queen buff) to every part of the matchup. I am not saying it is or isn't imbalanced, but buffing something for a race that helps with the early game makes the rest of the game easier for that race.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
What is Doa talking about? CoCa was not known for his ZvT before he left the scene. Back then--when the cries were "Terran OP" instead of "Terran UP"--CoCa was decent at ZvT. He was famous because he or NesTea had the best ZvP at a time when a lot of Zergs were at a loss as far as what they were supposed to do. He was good at ZvT, but he was not that good and he certainly was not favored against Code S Terrans like MarineKing.
And the person who said that balance does not matter and that CoCa is just a better player, MarineKing has a far better record in GSL, won an MLG when there was more difficult competition than when CoCa was there, and has overall just had better success. CoCa is a great player and if Protoss were the dominant race in GSL before he had to leave he probably would have won every GSL, but MarineKing has had far better success and without the recent changes to the TvZ match-up MarineKing would be favored against CoCa. That is not saying that the match-up is currently imba or whatever, but it certainly is harder for Terrans and far easier for Zergs.
Also why is this map even in the pool for this or any tournament? This map is dreadful, ESV has so many good maps, this however is just not one of them. Good to see MarineKing cheesing on this map I really don't want to watch a real game here.
On July 03 2012 09:29 Lennient wrote: this makes MKP look like an inferior player, can't beat Coca by greedy play, non-standard build, and now hes trying to cheese him
No it doesn't.
If you don't cheese at least once in a bo9 then you're basically playing the series wrongly.
On July 03 2012 09:32 PanzerKing wrote: This is terrible. Made it through the last two games, but I can't watch the rest of this matchup - TvZ was absolutely destroyed by the last patch.
Leaving when things are getting interesting,noo.. double proxies etc cool shanigans coming
On July 03 2012 09:29 Lennient wrote: this makes MKP look like an inferior player, can't beat Coca by greedy play, non-standard build, and now hes trying to cheese him
No it doesn't.
If you don't cheese at least once in a bo9 then you're basically playing the series wrongly.
What? Someone is blaming MKP for 2 raxing in the current state of the matchup?
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
Hmm, well the buff has changed a metagame significantly, since the queen buffs allow Zergs to build up safer economies in the early game, and allow for better creep spread. There is no question that Coca is playing great, but I'm sure the buff is helping him.
Either way though, I think by now it is all hypothetical anyways. I don't think that Blizzard is going to revert the patch, so we might as well live with it now, accept it rather than claim that the games under the new patch are meaningless, and try to adjust the meta game to the new patch.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
On July 03 2012 09:26 Rulker wrote: Speaking of MMA it's going to be hard to wait to the 17th for his GSL matches T_T
Speaking of MMA, he used to have the best TvZ in the world and now he can't beat a zerg to save his life. Makes you go hmmmmm.
66% w/r vs Zerg (both TLPDs) in 2012.
Queen patch didn't go through until like May lol.
and since then he's beaten IdrA Symbol Nestea Shine and Stephano. To name a few. lol .
And since then, 30% win rate in the matchup
Losing to Losira Sen Byul and Hyun, all dominating in GSTL (except for Sen). Not terrible
You can mention all the names you want, but his win rate is still 30% in the matchup, which is what tells the most. If anything, losing to Losira, Sen, Byul, and Hyun supports me more than yourself.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
On July 03 2012 09:29 Lennient wrote: this makes MKP look like an inferior player, can't beat Coca by greedy play, non-standard build, and now hes trying to cheese him
No it doesn't.
If you don't cheese at least once in a bo9 then you're basically playing the series wrongly.
Or you play Zerg. G1: 15 Hatch into Queens G2: 15 Hatch into Queens G3: 15 Hatch into Queens G4: 15 Hatch into Queens G5: 15 Hatch into Queens G6: 15 Hatch into Queens (if needed) G7: 15 Hatch into Queens (if needed) G8: 15 Hatch into Queens (if needed) G9: 15 Hatch into Queens (if needed)
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
I don't think you are understanding. I'm not saying that Coca wouldn't have won anyway, but the queen buff affects everything. Coca can be safer at some points, which may lead to him getting more units and getting an earlier lead... perhaps earlier upgrades, faster tech, etc. It may help him hold off something like a drop more effectively since he has more units than normal when it comes. Everything in the game is affected... that's just how it is.
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
How do you not get the fact that the game has totally changed and both Zergs and Terrans are playing the entire game differently? That specific situation would never have come up pre-patch because both players would have played completely different build orders.
On July 03 2012 09:29 Lennient wrote: this makes MKP look like an inferior player, can't beat Coca by greedy play, non-standard build, and now hes trying to cheese him
No it doesn't.
If you don't cheese at least once in a bo9 then you're basically playing the series wrongly.
Or you play Zerg. G1: 15 Hatch into Queens G2: 15 Hatch into Queens G3: 15 Hatch into Queens G4: 15 Hatch into Queens G5: 15 Hatch into Queens G6: 15 Hatch into Queens (if needed) G7: 15 Hatch into Queens (if needed) G8: 15 Hatch into Queens (if needed) G9: 15 Hatch into Queens (if needed)
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
That exact engagement for that exact game wouldn't have happened like that if there was no Queen buff, because the builds/meta would of been completely different. Therefore, Queen buff indirectly created that situation that allowed Coca's flank.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
regardless of that fact or not, the main point is that coca had a lot more stuff a lot earlier than he would have had prepatch, making the flank better
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
regardless of that fact or not, the main point is that coca had a lot more stuff a lot earlier than he would have had prepatch, making the flank better
You realize Coca had around 15 banelings to flank right? You really think that the queen buff somehow raised that number from 5 to 15? No of course not.... Regardless of the queen buff, a top zerg like Coca would realize that 15 banelings is the number he would need to successfully flank, which is exactly what he did. Stop trying to undermine coca's amazing flank...
On July 03 2012 09:50 aznball123 wrote: The "best" player changes every damn week lol, but I'd say DRG is the most dominant lately.
The metagame fluctuates so suddenly that it goes like DRG MVP DRG Symbol Nestea Alive in just a few months (not the actual way it goes just throwing names out their to shwo such fast change)
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
regardless of that fact or not, the main point is that coca had a lot more stuff a lot earlier than he would have had prepatch, making the flank better
You realize Coca had around 15 banelings to flank right? You really think that the queen buff somehow raised that number from 5 to 15? No of course not.... Regardless of the queen buff, a top zerg like Coca would realize that 15 banelings is the number he would need to successfully flank, which is exactly what he did. Stop trying to undermine coca's amazing flank...
okay, so his flank works. prepatch, the zerg would have less of a strong followup.
chill guys. just wait till we get a Z v Z gsl final, DRG wins another GSL, TSL wins the GSTL with all zergs line up. These won't be too far away. By then Blizzard will make another patch and fix the situation and balance up things again..
or not....
Nvm the worse case is we shall wait till HOTS is out, from now until then, just treat it as a dream, a nightmare for Terran, we shall wake up soon...
On July 03 2012 09:44 Hall0wed wrote: Goooooooo Coca!
And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant.
DRG's the best, but MKP made a very compelling case pre-patch
No there was a point WELL before the patch (earlier in 2012) where he could have been considered the best in the world, but no one in their right mind would have called him the best in the period right before (atleast the whole month before) the patch.
Also the patch didn't cause him to get crushed by MC. =P Yes that was a weird series but seriously, you dudes need to chill on the balance QQ around here. Blizzard isn't going to do crap just because a bunch of dudes post on TL about TvZ being broken.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
regardless of that fact or not, the main point is that coca had a lot more stuff a lot earlier than he would have had prepatch, making the flank better
You realize Coca had around 15 banelings to flank right? You really think that the queen buff somehow raised that number from 5 to 15? No of course not.... Regardless of the queen buff, a top zerg like Coca would realize that 15 banelings is the number he would need to successfully flank, which is exactly what he did. Stop trying to undermine coca's amazing flank...
I know I'm not taking away from Coca's win or decisions, and I'm also not calling zerg OP, but it is unreasonable to say that the queen buff doesn't affect every part of the game. I don't understand why you aren't willing to accept that.
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
Yes I exagerrated the buff of vikings obviously to show a point; of course the MAGNITUDE of the consequence of those would of been different, but the concept is the same. You even mentioned in your earlier post that "MKP didn't make helions to clear the creep that game"; guess what, I can guarantee you 99% chance if there was no queen buff, MKP would of opened helions and cleared some creep like you said. Coca would of also opened more safe, getting less drones/economy earlier, and therefore less bane/ling for that flank.
Yes you are right, there is no way MKP could of thwart that flank at that time, but we're saying that exact same flank with the same units wouldn't even have happened pre-queen buff.
Jjakji and Sculp "get" TvZ better than anyone else right now IMO, though that doesn't mean they're the best. I feel pretty confident the NSH Terrans are leading the way in figuring out what to do.
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
But what he is arguing is that MarineKing would have a wider array of things that he could do without the Queen change and even in MarineKing did the same thing CoCa would still have to account for all those other things, however by limiting MarineKing's options, CoCa has less to worry about. Obviously his example was an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.
And CoCa's "decision to surround with banelings" is not a decision. I mean I guess he could have decided to dance command his units, but you are really exaggerating how much of a "decision" CoCa made.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
On July 03 2012 09:44 Hall0wed wrote: Goooooooo Coca!
And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant.
DRG's the best, but MKP made a very compelling case pre-patch
No there was a point WELL before the patch (earlier in 2012) where he could have been considered the best in the world, but no one in their right mind would have called him the best in the period right before (atleast the whole month before) the patch.
Also the patch didn't cause him to get crushed by MC. =P Yes that was a weird series but seriously, you dudes need to chill on the balance QQ around here. Blizzard isn't going to do crap just because a bunch of dudes post on TL about TvZ being broken.
the six weeks before the patch -> MKP looks pretty dominant with >70% in both KR and international. 70% is nearing #1 i think. of course, not by consensus, but MKP was a high contender for best in the world.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
But what he is arguing is that MarineKing would have a wider array of things that he could do without the Queen change and even in MarineKing did the same thing CoCa would still have to account for all those other things, however by limiting MarineKing's options, CoCa has less to worry about. Obviously his example was an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.
And CoCa's "decision to surround with banelings" is not a decision. I mean I guess he could have decided to dance command his units, but you are really exaggerating how much of a "decision" CoCa made.
deliberately sending your banelings behind the enemy army and then coordinating them with the rest of your army is not a decision? wow I didn't know we lived in that kind of a world
On July 03 2012 09:44 Hall0wed wrote: Goooooooo Coca!
And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant.
DRG's the best, but MKP made a very compelling case pre-patch
No there was a point WELL before the patch (earlier in 2012) where he could have been considered the best in the world, but no one in their right mind would have called him the best in the period right before (atleast the whole month before) the patch.
Also the patch didn't cause him to get crushed by MC. =P Yes that was a weird series but seriously, you dudes need to chill on the balance QQ around here. Blizzard isn't going to do crap just because a bunch of dudes post on TL about TvZ being broken.
Sure it does, look what balance whining did for the zergs and protoss! Blizzard does keep tabs on feedback, just implements them like, 6 months later.
Every Terran has been complaining, it doesn't mean they never win.
Jjakji has been playing some really good TvZ games lately that's why I say that.
Actually, it means they lose more than they win, otherwise they wouldn't be complaining. You never heard MVP complain about TvZ prepatch...just ask wolf!
On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
you too are still ignoring the fact that zerg has a much better eco now than before, which significantly changes the game. mkp did NOT open hellions probably due to the fact that hellions are INEFFECTIVE.
On July 03 2012 09:44 Hall0wed wrote: Goooooooo Coca!
And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant.
DRG's the best, but MKP made a very compelling case pre-patch
No there was a point WELL before the patch (earlier in 2012) where he could have been considered the best in the world, but no one in their right mind would have called him the best in the period right before (atleast the whole month before) the patch.
Also the patch didn't cause him to get crushed by MC. =P Yes that was a weird series but seriously, you dudes need to chill on the balance QQ around here. Blizzard isn't going to do crap just because a bunch of dudes post on TL about TvZ being broken.
Sure it does, look what balance whining did for the zergs and protoss! Blizzard does keep tabs on feedback, just implements them like, 6 months later.
Blizzard patches will be on backorder because of D3 ^^
Marineking looking really good in this game though. Game 8 incoming :D This game is pretty much over
On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
I mean, like seriously the best, not by preference. Gauge higher rated zerg players, and the terran players win rate since patch against a slew of zergs including top zergs. Maybe be easier to check top zergs and see what terran they lose to, then go check through that way.
On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
But what he is arguing is that MarineKing would have a wider array of things that he could do without the Queen change and even in MarineKing did the same thing CoCa would still have to account for all those other things, however by limiting MarineKing's options, CoCa has less to worry about. Obviously his example was an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.
And CoCa's "decision to surround with banelings" is not a decision. I mean I guess he could have decided to dance command his units, but you are really exaggerating how much of a "decision" CoCa made.
deliberately sending your banelings behind the enemy army and then coordinating them with the rest of your army is not a decision? wow I didn't know we lived in that kind of a world
it's not that rare a move to see, wouldn't put it past many top zergs to do something like that. great move, still, though.
I think the best TvZ strat right now is some kind of 9:30-10:30 hellion bio push, with or without medivacs. Assuming you don't die from your 1rax CC or CC first to a roachbane bust
Hahahahahahahahahahaha. This post makes me really happy. Jjakji--like the rest of NSHS are all really intelligent players and Jjakji actually has really good control, but he is not the best TvZ. I don't think anybody has been doing particularly well, but Taeja has done alright in GSL against viOLet and Leenock (not the best in the world, but well) and MarineKing actually has had fairly good results compared to other players in Code S, but frankly no Terrans have been doing phenominally at TvZ in Code S.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
you too are still ignoring the fact that zerg has a much better eco now than before, which significantly changes the game. mkp did NOT open hellions probably due to the fact that hellions are INEFFECTIVE.
holy shit, you're not worth my time. i've already addressed that fact... i really dont wana argue with someone who doesnt read my points carefully, which i actaully realized before about you, i guess i just forgot. in the words of someone who similarly lost the edge to argue "NYAH NYAH have a good life mate"
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
you too are still ignoring the fact that zerg has a much better eco now than before, which significantly changes the game. mkp did NOT open hellions probably due to the fact that hellions are INEFFECTIVE.
holy shit, you're not worth my time. i've already addressed that fact... i really dont wana argue with someone who doesnt read my points carefully, which i actaully realized before about you, i guess i just forgot. in the words of someone who similarly lost the edge to argue "NYAH NYAH have a good life mate"
lol consider that everyone in this thread is posting AGAINST you and maybe see who's incorrect laters~
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
You are right. The queen buff plus the spore crawler buff made banshee openings almost useless against zerg. Thats one more viable opening down the drain. So zerg players can easier and faster now.
On July 03 2012 10:04 sparklyresidue wrote: I feel like I haven't seen a 2rax successfully defended in a long time. I'm sure I'm just forgetting... but jesus they are so effective.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well. That being said, you have to take the map and the player into consideration. Map: Entombed Valley. Player: MKP. What does MKP absolutely love and always does on Entombed Valley. Yes that's right, the 4 rax into marine marauder mech style that he just used against coca. Basically every player has a certain strategy they almost always use on a specific map against different players. Please note, hes been using that build since before the patch. Therefore, there is about an 80-85% chance that he wouldn't have opened helions anyways, especially if you consider that entombed isn't the best map for reactor helions, and thus, the queen buff was NOT a huge factor in coca's baneling flank being effective and completely eating mkp's army alive.
On July 03 2012 10:04 sparklyresidue wrote: I feel like I haven't seen a 2rax successfully defended in a long time. I'm sure I'm just forgetting... but jesus they are so effective.
I remember one of the up/down days where Curious defended 3 rax like 3 games in a row to get first in the group, was pretty funny.
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well. That being said, you have to take the map and the player into consideration. Map: Entombed Valley. Player: MKP. What does MKP absolutely love and always does on Entombed Valley. Yes that's right, the 4 rax into marine marauder mech style that he just used against coca. Basically every player has a certain strategy they almost always use on a specific map against different players. Please note, hes been using that build since before the patch. Therefore, there is about an 80-85% chance that he wouldn't have opened helions anyways, especially if you consider that entombed isn't the best map for reactor helions, and thus, the queen buff was NOT a huge factor in coca's baneling flank being effective and completely eating mkp's army alive.
wow, i love your analysis of mkp and how you know all his builds.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
But what he is arguing is that MarineKing would have a wider array of things that he could do without the Queen change and even in MarineKing did the same thing CoCa would still have to account for all those other things, however by limiting MarineKing's options, CoCa has less to worry about. Obviously his example was an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.
And CoCa's "decision to surround with banelings" is not a decision. I mean I guess he could have decided to dance command his units, but you are really exaggerating how much of a "decision" CoCa made.
deliberately sending your banelings behind the enemy army and then coordinating them with the rest of your army is not a decision? wow I didn't know we lived in that kind of a world
it's not that rare a move to see, wouldn't put it past many top zergs to do something like that. great move, still, though.
"great move, still, though." "that's all I wanted to hear :D"
On July 03 2012 10:04 sparklyresidue wrote: I feel like I haven't seen a 2rax successfully defended in a long time. I'm sure I'm just forgetting... but jesus they are so effective.
the zergs: Yes yes we know you will never admit that the patch had made your race the best race at the moment, so just enjoy your golden era and remember to cheer louder for DRG when he rapes everyone and clinch another GSL title
the terrans: Stop complaining unless you are david kim's mother who could make him listen to you. Blizzard only listen to stats but not complaints. save your breath, improve your game, wait for the pros to find a solution. be a man
the protoss: i pity you when your only solution to P v Z lategame, the mothership, is always neural parasited, and blizzard doesnt even know about it LOL. however i salute you for complaining less than the terrans. You are the man (well at least u guys have P v T lategame to enjoy about)
the terrans: Stop complaining unless you are david kim's mother who could make him listen to you. Blizzard only listen to stats but not complaints. save your breath, improve your game, wait for the pros to find a solution. be a man
Actually......... david kim or whoever balances starcraft listens very heavily to forums if we compare past-whines to past-patches. Sad fact but its the truth.
the terrans: Stop complaining unless you are david kim's mother who could make him listen to you. Blizzard only listen to stats but not complaints. save your breath, improve your game, wait for the pros to find a solution. be a man
Actually......... david kim or whoever balances starcraft listens very heavily to forums if we compare past-whines to past-patches. Sad fact but its the truth.
Also, go coca!
Okay so does it mean that the next patch will favour terrans heavily, since terrans are now complaining like no tomorrow in all forums?
the terrans: Stop complaining unless you are david kim's mother who could make him listen to you. Blizzard only listen to stats but not complaints. save your breath, improve your game, wait for the pros to find a solution. be a man
Actually......... david kim or whoever balances starcraft listens very heavily to forums if we compare past-whines to past-patches. Sad fact but its the truth.
Also, go coca!
Okay so does it mean that the next patch will favour terrans heavily, since terrans are now complaining like no tomorrow in all forums?
Sadly i kind of cannot feel that is coming
Terrans were bitching about TvP and the new patch gave Protoss a small buff (obs build time). Guess the Blizzard balance team sees things a bit differently from all the whining.
Terrans were bitching about TvP and the new patch gave Protoss a small buff (obs build time). Guess the Blizzard balance team sees things a bit differently from all the whining.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
On July 03 2012 09:31 opterown wrote: [quote] zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
On July 03 2012 09:41 Fubi wrote: [quote] No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
never said me specifically, just said plenty of people. i don't mind disagreeing with them either
Poll: hellions are much much less useful than they used to be
yes (11)
79%
no (3)
21%
14 total votes
Your vote: hellions are much much less useful than they used to be
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
never said me specifically, just said plenty of people. i don't mind disagreeing with them either
Poll: hellions are much much less useful than they used to be
yes (11)
79%
no (3)
21%
14 total votes
Your vote: hellions are much much less useful than they used to be
okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
On July 03 2012 09:41 Fubi wrote: [quote] No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
plus the poll was against your point that 'hellions are still a viable strategy'. viable yes, but much less useful.
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
On July 03 2012 09:41 Fubi wrote: [quote] No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
On July 03 2012 09:49 opterown wrote: [quote] sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
On July 03 2012 09:56 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
more than 1 or 2 definitely.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going! i like that you're the only vote against in my poll (assuming that's you)
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
My 2 cents is that I always felt hellions were a little too strong. Aren't they the only non-gas unit with splash? On top of that, it's possible to make 2 of them at a time and they're incredibly fast. I was always kind of tired of seeing Zergs lose just because some hellions snuck into the main and microed perfectly, they simply did more damage than I felt was fair. You even saw how TvT went to shit because of the hellion xD Just my opinion, though.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
On July 04 2012 10:51 opterown wrote: [quote] plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
example is more than enough to show that hellions don't delay creep appreciably enough. better than anything you've come up with so far
On July 03 2012 09:49 opterown wrote: [quote] sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote: [quote]
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
example is more than enough to show that hellions don't delay creep appreciably enough. better than anything you've come up with so far
haha like I said before your posts really are hilarious sometimes. with that as your last "full retard" moment I'll leave you to "debate balance" with your bronze credentials to other people.
On July 04 2012 11:00 opterown wrote: [quote] gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
[quote]
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
example is more than enough to show that hellions don't delay creep appreciably enough. better than anything you've come up with so far
haha like I said before your posts really are hilarious sometimes. with that as your last "full retard" moment I'll leave you to "debate balance" with your bronze credentials to other people.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm wary of trusting pros because what if one pro says something about balance and then another pro of similar standing says something contradictory? This happens quite often. For example, MMA and a few other high-profile Terrans were complaining about PvT, while Squirtle, Puzzle, and Hero all essentially said that PvT is fine.
On July 03 2012 09:56 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm wary of trusting pros because what if one pro says something about balance and then another pro of similar standing says something contradictory? This happens quite often. For example, MMA and a few other high-profile Terrans were complaining about PvT, while Squirtle, Puzzle, and Hero all essentially said that PvT is fine.
it's understandable that pros are a bit biased to their own race, but recently with this patch, pros like nestea and drg and other zergs have said zvt is much easier, while others like mvp and mkp have been complaining. i suppose it's one of the few times that pros agree :D
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm not saying foreign pros are more credible than koreans. I'm saying that koreans have never been asked in the proper setting to take what they say seriously. One of the main purposes of SOTG is to have serious discussions about balance, all the players who come on know that beforehand and thus discuss balance with full sincerity and prove their points with examples, experience, etc.
We can't trust what the koreans are saying because they were never told, "I want your serious opinions on balance and explain why you think this way", they usually gave their opinions during some random post-tourney interview. Some notorious balance contributions from some koreans include "zerg.... sad" -Nestea. "zerg so imba" -MKP. Koreans aren't idiots, they just never discussed balance seriously. Maybe we really should set up a show solely for discussing balance with the koreans in a serious manner, taht would be pretty awesome.
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm wary of trusting pros because what if one pro says something about balance and then another pro of similar standing says something contradictory? This happens quite often. For example, MMA and a few other high-profile Terrans were complaining about PvT, while Squirtle, Puzzle, and Hero all essentially said that PvT is fine.
it's understandable that pros are a bit biased to their own race, but recently with this patch, pros like nestea and drg and other zergs have said zvt is much easier, while others like mvp and mkp have been complaining. i suppose it's one of the few times that pros agree :D
Yeah I guess my point is that you have to evaluate what pros say about balance on a case-by-case basis. You can't just take what one pro says about a matchup and use it as evidence of anything. You have to look at what all pros are saying on both sides of the matchup. Last GSL, I was simply tired of seeing Terrans go, "Oh look MMA and MVP are complaining about PvT, clearly it's imba" while ignoring the fact that Squirtle Puzzle and Hero all were saying that PvT was fine.
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote: [quote]
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
example is more than enough to show that hellions don't delay creep appreciably enough. better than anything you've come up with so far
If zerg has 4 queens out 6 hellions aren't delaying shit. the hellions have to be sacrificed to kill as many drones as you can before ling speed finishes. If Zerg only has 2 queens out spreading creep then 6 hellions can slow them down quite a bit. Any more then that and it's not going to work. You might snipe a tumour here or there but the rate of which 4 queens make tumours is too much for 6 hellions to really dent.
On July 03 2012 09:56 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm not saying foreign pros are more credible than koreans. I'm saying that koreans have never been asked in the proper setting to take what they say seriously. One of the main purposes of SOTG is to have serious discussions about balance, all the players who come on know that beforehand and thus discuss balance with full sincerity and prove their points with examples, experience, etc.
We can't trust what the koreans are saying because they were never told, "I want your serious opinions on balance and explain why you think this way", they usually gave their opinions during some random post-tourney interview. Some notorious balance contributions from some koreans include "zerg.... sad" -Nestea. "zerg so imba" -MKP. Koreans aren't idiots, they just never discussed balance seriously. Maybe we really should set up a show solely for discussing balance with the koreans in a serious manner, taht would be pretty awesome.
Could you imagine a Korean SOTG-style show by the GSL, with all the GSL Champions, moderated by Mr. Chae? That would be sick. Only problem would be that Fruitdealer probably wouldn't do it, and MC is the only protoss.
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm not saying foreign pros are more credible than koreans. I'm saying that koreans have never been asked in the proper setting to take what they say seriously. One of the main purposes of SOTG is to have serious discussions about balance, all the players who come on know that beforehand and thus discuss balance with full sincerity and prove their points with examples, experience, etc.
We can't trust what the koreans are saying because they were never told, "I want your serious opinions on balance and explain why you think this way", they usually gave their opinions during some random post-tourney interview. Some notorious balance contributions from some koreans include "zerg.... sad" -Nestea. "zerg so imba" -MKP. Koreans aren't idiots, they just never discussed balance seriously. Maybe we really should set up a show solely for discussing balance with the koreans in a serious manner, taht would be pretty awesome.
Could you imagine a Korean SOTG-style show by the GSL, with all the GSL Champions, moderated by Mr. Chae? That would be sick. Only problem would be that Fruitdealer probably wouldn't do it, and MC is the only protoss.
It's ok, MC can handle being alone. He's the Boss Toss after all.
EPT
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. I'd still predict MKP to come away with the win though. It'll be close regardless of the victor though imo.
. MKP got this :D
he is really good ZvTer.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WbwPL.jpg)
