ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
regardless of that fact or not, the main point is that coca had a lot more stuff a lot earlier than he would have had prepatch, making the flank better
You realize Coca had around 15 banelings to flank right? You really think that the queen buff somehow raised that number from 5 to 15? No of course not.... Regardless of the queen buff, a top zerg like Coca would realize that 15 banelings is the number he would need to successfully flank, which is exactly what he did. Stop trying to undermine coca's amazing flank...
I know I'm not taking away from Coca's win or decisions, and I'm also not calling zerg OP, but it is unreasonable to say that the queen buff doesn't affect every part of the game. I don't understand why you aren't willing to accept that.
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
Yes I exagerrated the buff of vikings obviously to show a point; of course the MAGNITUDE of the consequence of those would of been different, but the concept is the same. You even mentioned in your earlier post that "MKP didn't make helions to clear the creep that game"; guess what, I can guarantee you 99% chance if there was no queen buff, MKP would of opened helions and cleared some creep like you said. Coca would of also opened more safe, getting less drones/economy earlier, and therefore less bane/ling for that flank.
Yes you are right, there is no way MKP could of thwart that flank at that time, but we're saying that exact same flank with the same units wouldn't even have happened pre-queen buff.
Jjakji and Sculp "get" TvZ better than anyone else right now IMO, though that doesn't mean they're the best. I feel pretty confident the NSH Terrans are leading the way in figuring out what to do.
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
But what he is arguing is that MarineKing would have a wider array of things that he could do without the Queen change and even in MarineKing did the same thing CoCa would still have to account for all those other things, however by limiting MarineKing's options, CoCa has less to worry about. Obviously his example was an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.
And CoCa's "decision to surround with banelings" is not a decision. I mean I guess he could have decided to dance command his units, but you are really exaggerating how much of a "decision" CoCa made.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
On July 03 2012 09:44 Hall0wed wrote: Goooooooo Coca!
And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant.
DRG's the best, but MKP made a very compelling case pre-patch
No there was a point WELL before the patch (earlier in 2012) where he could have been considered the best in the world, but no one in their right mind would have called him the best in the period right before (atleast the whole month before) the patch.
Also the patch didn't cause him to get crushed by MC. =P Yes that was a weird series but seriously, you dudes need to chill on the balance QQ around here. Blizzard isn't going to do crap just because a bunch of dudes post on TL about TvZ being broken.
the six weeks before the patch -> MKP looks pretty dominant with >70% in both KR and international. 70% is nearing #1 i think. of course, not by consensus, but MKP was a high contender for best in the world.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
But what he is arguing is that MarineKing would have a wider array of things that he could do without the Queen change and even in MarineKing did the same thing CoCa would still have to account for all those other things, however by limiting MarineKing's options, CoCa has less to worry about. Obviously his example was an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.
And CoCa's "decision to surround with banelings" is not a decision. I mean I guess he could have decided to dance command his units, but you are really exaggerating how much of a "decision" CoCa made.
deliberately sending your banelings behind the enemy army and then coordinating them with the rest of your army is not a decision? wow I didn't know we lived in that kind of a world
On July 03 2012 09:44 Hall0wed wrote: Goooooooo Coca!
And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant.
DRG's the best, but MKP made a very compelling case pre-patch
No there was a point WELL before the patch (earlier in 2012) where he could have been considered the best in the world, but no one in their right mind would have called him the best in the period right before (atleast the whole month before) the patch.
Also the patch didn't cause him to get crushed by MC. =P Yes that was a weird series but seriously, you dudes need to chill on the balance QQ around here. Blizzard isn't going to do crap just because a bunch of dudes post on TL about TvZ being broken.
Sure it does, look what balance whining did for the zergs and protoss! Blizzard does keep tabs on feedback, just implements them like, 6 months later.
Every Terran has been complaining, it doesn't mean they never win.
Jjakji has been playing some really good TvZ games lately that's why I say that.
Actually, it means they lose more than they win, otherwise they wouldn't be complaining. You never heard MVP complain about TvZ prepatch...just ask wolf!
On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
you too are still ignoring the fact that zerg has a much better eco now than before, which significantly changes the game. mkp did NOT open hellions probably due to the fact that hellions are INEFFECTIVE.
On July 03 2012 09:44 Hall0wed wrote: Goooooooo Coca!
And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant.
DRG's the best, but MKP made a very compelling case pre-patch
No there was a point WELL before the patch (earlier in 2012) where he could have been considered the best in the world, but no one in their right mind would have called him the best in the period right before (atleast the whole month before) the patch.
Also the patch didn't cause him to get crushed by MC. =P Yes that was a weird series but seriously, you dudes need to chill on the balance QQ around here. Blizzard isn't going to do crap just because a bunch of dudes post on TL about TvZ being broken.
Sure it does, look what balance whining did for the zergs and protoss! Blizzard does keep tabs on feedback, just implements them like, 6 months later.
Blizzard patches will be on backorder because of D3 ^^
Marineking looking really good in this game though. Game 8 incoming :D This game is pretty much over
On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
I mean, like seriously the best, not by preference. Gauge higher rated zerg players, and the terran players win rate since patch against a slew of zergs including top zergs. Maybe be easier to check top zergs and see what terran they lose to, then go check through that way.
On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
But what he is arguing is that MarineKing would have a wider array of things that he could do without the Queen change and even in MarineKing did the same thing CoCa would still have to account for all those other things, however by limiting MarineKing's options, CoCa has less to worry about. Obviously his example was an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.
And CoCa's "decision to surround with banelings" is not a decision. I mean I guess he could have decided to dance command his units, but you are really exaggerating how much of a "decision" CoCa made.
deliberately sending your banelings behind the enemy army and then coordinating them with the rest of your army is not a decision? wow I didn't know we lived in that kind of a world
it's not that rare a move to see, wouldn't put it past many top zergs to do something like that. great move, still, though.
EPT
