I think the best TvZ strat right now is some kind of 9:30-10:30 hellion bio push, with or without medivacs. Assuming you don't die from your 1rax CC or CC first to a roachbane bust
On July 03 2012 09:47 iAmJeffReY wrote: Who's the best TvZ player in korea since patch?
Jjakji. ( imo )
Jjakji huh?
Hahahahahahahahahahaha. This post makes me really happy. Jjakji--like the rest of NSHS are all really intelligent players and Jjakji actually has really good control, but he is not the best TvZ. I don't think anybody has been doing particularly well, but Taeja has done alright in GSL against viOLet and Leenock (not the best in the world, but well) and MarineKing actually has had fairly good results compared to other players in Code S, but frankly no Terrans have been doing phenominally at TvZ in Code S.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
you too are still ignoring the fact that zerg has a much better eco now than before, which significantly changes the game. mkp did NOT open hellions probably due to the fact that hellions are INEFFECTIVE.
holy shit, you're not worth my time. i've already addressed that fact... i really dont wana argue with someone who doesnt read my points carefully, which i actaully realized before about you, i guess i just forgot. in the words of someone who similarly lost the edge to argue "NYAH NYAH have a good life mate"
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
you too are still ignoring the fact that zerg has a much better eco now than before, which significantly changes the game. mkp did NOT open hellions probably due to the fact that hellions are INEFFECTIVE.
holy shit, you're not worth my time. i've already addressed that fact... i really dont wana argue with someone who doesnt read my points carefully, which i actaully realized before about you, i guess i just forgot. in the words of someone who similarly lost the edge to argue "NYAH NYAH have a good life mate"
lol consider that everyone in this thread is posting AGAINST you and maybe see who's incorrect laters~
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
You are right. The queen buff plus the spore crawler buff made banshee openings almost useless against zerg. Thats one more viable opening down the drain. So zerg players can easier and faster now.
EPT
laters~
