My 2 cents is that I always felt hellions were a little too strong. Aren't they the only non-gas unit with splash? On top of that, it's possible to make 2 of them at a time and they're incredibly fast. I was always kind of tired of seeing Zergs lose just because some hellions snuck into the main and microed perfectly, they simply did more damage than I felt was fair. You even saw how TvT went to shit because of the hellion xD Just my opinion, though.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
On July 04 2012 10:51 opterown wrote: [quote] plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
example is more than enough to show that hellions don't delay creep appreciably enough. better than anything you've come up with so far
On July 03 2012 09:49 opterown wrote: [quote] sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote: [quote]
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
example is more than enough to show that hellions don't delay creep appreciably enough. better than anything you've come up with so far
haha like I said before your posts really are hilarious sometimes. with that as your last "full retard" moment I'll leave you to "debate balance" with your bronze credentials to other people.
On July 04 2012 11:00 opterown wrote: [quote] gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
[quote]
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
example is more than enough to show that hellions don't delay creep appreciably enough. better than anything you've come up with so far
haha like I said before your posts really are hilarious sometimes. with that as your last "full retard" moment I'll leave you to "debate balance" with your bronze credentials to other people.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm wary of trusting pros because what if one pro says something about balance and then another pro of similar standing says something contradictory? This happens quite often. For example, MMA and a few other high-profile Terrans were complaining about PvT, while Squirtle, Puzzle, and Hero all essentially said that PvT is fine.
On July 03 2012 09:56 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm wary of trusting pros because what if one pro says something about balance and then another pro of similar standing says something contradictory? This happens quite often. For example, MMA and a few other high-profile Terrans were complaining about PvT, while Squirtle, Puzzle, and Hero all essentially said that PvT is fine.
it's understandable that pros are a bit biased to their own race, but recently with this patch, pros like nestea and drg and other zergs have said zvt is much easier, while others like mvp and mkp have been complaining. i suppose it's one of the few times that pros agree :D
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm not saying foreign pros are more credible than koreans. I'm saying that koreans have never been asked in the proper setting to take what they say seriously. One of the main purposes of SOTG is to have serious discussions about balance, all the players who come on know that beforehand and thus discuss balance with full sincerity and prove their points with examples, experience, etc.
We can't trust what the koreans are saying because they were never told, "I want your serious opinions on balance and explain why you think this way", they usually gave their opinions during some random post-tourney interview. Some notorious balance contributions from some koreans include "zerg.... sad" -Nestea. "zerg so imba" -MKP. Koreans aren't idiots, they just never discussed balance seriously. Maybe we really should set up a show solely for discussing balance with the koreans in a serious manner, taht would be pretty awesome.
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm wary of trusting pros because what if one pro says something about balance and then another pro of similar standing says something contradictory? This happens quite often. For example, MMA and a few other high-profile Terrans were complaining about PvT, while Squirtle, Puzzle, and Hero all essentially said that PvT is fine.
it's understandable that pros are a bit biased to their own race, but recently with this patch, pros like nestea and drg and other zergs have said zvt is much easier, while others like mvp and mkp have been complaining. i suppose it's one of the few times that pros agree :D
Yeah I guess my point is that you have to evaluate what pros say about balance on a case-by-case basis. You can't just take what one pro says about a matchup and use it as evidence of anything. You have to look at what all pros are saying on both sides of the matchup. Last GSL, I was simply tired of seeing Terrans go, "Oh look MMA and MVP are complaining about PvT, clearly it's imba" while ignoring the fact that Squirtle Puzzle and Hero all were saying that PvT was fine.
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote: [quote]
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
wow, when zergs have creep at your natural within 15 minutes and terrans open reactor hellions, lots of delay there.
i don't need credentials to debate you
great example, has lots of context and details to boot.
no you don't. but you do need them not to sound like an idiot. could you at least tell me if practice league still exists? if you have an account that is
example is more than enough to show that hellions don't delay creep appreciably enough. better than anything you've come up with so far
If zerg has 4 queens out 6 hellions aren't delaying shit. the hellions have to be sacrificed to kill as many drones as you can before ling speed finishes. If Zerg only has 2 queens out spreading creep then 6 hellions can slow them down quite a bit. Any more then that and it's not going to work. You might snipe a tumour here or there but the rate of which 4 queens make tumours is too much for 6 hellions to really dent.
On July 03 2012 09:56 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm not saying foreign pros are more credible than koreans. I'm saying that koreans have never been asked in the proper setting to take what they say seriously. One of the main purposes of SOTG is to have serious discussions about balance, all the players who come on know that beforehand and thus discuss balance with full sincerity and prove their points with examples, experience, etc.
We can't trust what the koreans are saying because they were never told, "I want your serious opinions on balance and explain why you think this way", they usually gave their opinions during some random post-tourney interview. Some notorious balance contributions from some koreans include "zerg.... sad" -Nestea. "zerg so imba" -MKP. Koreans aren't idiots, they just never discussed balance seriously. Maybe we really should set up a show solely for discussing balance with the koreans in a serious manner, taht would be pretty awesome.
Could you imagine a Korean SOTG-style show by the GSL, with all the GSL Champions, moderated by Mr. Chae? That would be sick. Only problem would be that Fruitdealer probably wouldn't do it, and MC is the only protoss.
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
But why if we cannot trust whether the top Korean pros are being serious, why can we put so much faith in the sincerity of what foreign pros have to say? MVP I think is a pretty reasonable person to go to in terms of discussions on balance. Back during the days of the 1-1-1, he gained the nickname the "conscience Terran" because he spoke out on how the 1-1-1 is difficult for Protoss, even as a Terran player.
In the end, I trust the feedback from the pros much more than even the developers at Blizzard.
I'm not saying foreign pros are more credible than koreans. I'm saying that koreans have never been asked in the proper setting to take what they say seriously. One of the main purposes of SOTG is to have serious discussions about balance, all the players who come on know that beforehand and thus discuss balance with full sincerity and prove their points with examples, experience, etc.
We can't trust what the koreans are saying because they were never told, "I want your serious opinions on balance and explain why you think this way", they usually gave their opinions during some random post-tourney interview. Some notorious balance contributions from some koreans include "zerg.... sad" -Nestea. "zerg so imba" -MKP. Koreans aren't idiots, they just never discussed balance seriously. Maybe we really should set up a show solely for discussing balance with the koreans in a serious manner, taht would be pretty awesome.
Could you imagine a Korean SOTG-style show by the GSL, with all the GSL Champions, moderated by Mr. Chae? That would be sick. Only problem would be that Fruitdealer probably wouldn't do it, and MC is the only protoss.
It's ok, MC can handle being alone. He's the Boss Toss after all.
EPT
