a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
On July 03 2012 09:31 opterown wrote: [quote] zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
On July 03 2012 09:41 Fubi wrote: [quote] No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
never said me specifically, just said plenty of people. i don't mind disagreeing with them either
Poll: hellions are much much less useful than they used to be
yes (11)
79%
no (3)
21%
14 total votes
Your vote: hellions are much much less useful than they used to be
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
never said me specifically, just said plenty of people. i don't mind disagreeing with them either
Poll: hellions are much much less useful than they used to be
yes (11)
79%
no (3)
21%
14 total votes
Your vote: hellions are much much less useful than they used to be
okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
On July 03 2012 09:41 Fubi wrote: [quote] No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
plus the poll was against your point that 'hellions are still a viable strategy'. viable yes, but much less useful.
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
On July 03 2012 09:41 Fubi wrote: [quote] No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
On July 03 2012 09:49 opterown wrote: [quote] sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
sure, coca's decision was awesome, but creep spread is in no way SLIGHTLY affected. lol the difference is staggering.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
No offense to the listed three players, but 2 of them play Protoss and have very little competitive experience with the TvZ matchup, and while qxc is a very analytical and good source, he is still only 1 opinion. I would personally value the opinion and thoughts of a top-tier TvZ player over the opinions of all 3 of them, such as a player like MVP, MKP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjakji,, etc.
only problem with top-tier players is that it's really hard to get a good answer out of them about balance. Basically every korean progamer has always complained about balance, whether it be in a jesting manner or not, we can't really take what they say into account until they prove their opinions and establish that they're being completely serious with what they're saying.
sigh... I really hate repeating myself but I guess I have to if you're going to ignore certain parts of my post. "that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). "
To reiterate: MKP DID NOT OPEN HELIONS. Reactor helions is the strategy designed to stop creep that was affected the most by the buff and basically 95% of the reason why creep spread is so good nowadays. Seeing as how he didn't open reactor helions to stop creep, I don't understand why you're trying to argue that the creep spread difference would have been "staggering"
MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
On July 03 2012 09:56 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] MarineKing didn't open Hellions BECAUSE OF THE QUEEN BUFF (or, at the very least, the option was made vastly less desirable).
You have got to be trolling here. . .
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
you don't realize that reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well.
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
more than 1 or 2 definitely.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going! i like that you're the only vote against in my poll (assuming that's you)
No, Zerg can do all the things reactored hellions were meant to deny in order to put Terran into a decent (but not advantageous) midgame position vs Zerg. Their role has now been reduced to scouting and holding all-ins, and Terran are currently relying on different ways of setting Zerg behind in order to survive.
No, reactored helions are still viable, you just have to produce 6 if you want to deny a respectable amount of creep and also need to micro weak helions back. zergs are really only capable of holding back 6 helions with a total of 4-6 queens, but if they make that many that means they opened gasless and don't have ling speed. 6 helions should never die to pure queens without speedling support so yes they are viable at sniping tumors and running away. If you disagree with me you disagree with idra
plenty of people disagree with idra
you also disagree with QXC, incontrol, and tyler
lol you're just proving to me more and more how childish you are. I said helions are still a viable strategy, never said they're just as effective. That poll is just another case of you trying to take things out of context to make yourself look like you actually have a grasp on a logical debate.
gee, see how good you are at applying personal arguments to a logical debate haha.
i couldn't care less what you thought of me, i just disagree with what you're trying to say. when koreans have said over and over again in interviews about the ineffectiveness of hellions, i'm more inclined to believe them over foreigners (who definitely aren't on the same skill level). sure some of it is terran whine, but as a spectator, i've seen some evidence of what they're saying.
On July 04 2012 11:00 MasterKang wrote:
On July 04 2012 10:57 opterown wrote: okay well my counterargument - zergs don't NEED to open with ling speed. sure, without ling speed, hellions won't die to lings easily, but hellions will have a very hard time denying creep against 4-6 queens. there's a reason 4q or 6q builds are the go-to builds right now.
"queens shoot a lot farther sure, but they're still queens and still tickle helions" Do you play terran at least at a high master level? I highly doubt it. Helions have a hard time denying creep but it's not impossible b/c you'd have to either suicide helions to kill drones or have gold league micro to lose 6 helions to a few queens, plus repair is kind of a thing
did i ever say queens killed hellions? learn to read, i said that queens made it harder to deny creep.
rofl, I thought it was pretty clear that you were the one applying personal arguments to a logical debate by childishly putting up that poll, either that or you're really just that bad at reading carefully. In other words, I'd really love it if you would enlighten me and quote the part where I said "helions are just as effective as before", if you can't then your poll was a pathetic attempt to garner the support of the average passerby who has no context whatsoever. In fact I just found a quote from my posts, "reactor helions is still a viable option and still functions to slow creep, albeit not as well".
i got a question for you, what kind of helion can kill a creep tumor? A helion that's not dead., and like I said, you'd have to be in gold to lose helions to queens without suicidal intentions. Really though at what level do you play terran?
"a helion that's not dead" doesn't kill creep tumours that are surrounded by four queens. unless they're double reactored or something
consider that all your posting in this thread yesterday was met with intense opposition and then see who's got the less correct opinion. i really need no further argument of mine to back me up, but i somewhat enjoy riling you up.
..wow I didn't realize that the hypothetical question wouldn't get through to your brain.. the point is queens won't kill a helion unless you have over 6 of them shooting at once (which you won't because you keep 2 to inject), thus the reactored helions won't die and are able to kil tumors.
"intense opposition"? there were 1 or 2 guys, so hush with the hyperbole (hyperbole=exaggeration in case you didn't know). also, considering how the entire community is in a ZERG IMBA craze, it means nothing that a couple random people, whose credentials in balance discussion are completely unknown, saw the debate and just decided to chime in.
Unfortunately for you, I'm really not riled up at all, I came to terms a long time ago with the fact that you really just blabber nonsense and rely on taking things out of context to make an argument. I'm just hoping that eventually you may realize the fallacies of your ways and your words. And judging by your intentional ignoring of my question, I'm just going to assume that you play terran at a silver level at best, probably not even
six hellions are not going to be able to destroy creep being spread by four queens, unless the zerg makes a mistake. easily enough said.
i think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem keep going!
i never said they destroy creep, i said they delay creep, easily enough said. the fact that you're probably not even in bronze league means you have little to no credentials to even be discussing this. You really should just tell ppl that before you start debating so they know they should just ignore the things you're saying.
Like I said, I'm not riled up at all, although there's no way to prove that to you. On the flip side, I think you're a lot more riled up than you want to seem as well, would explain why you keep ignoring the questions that would invalidate everything you're saying.
Edit: And no that vote in the poll is not me. y would I bother voting in something stupid like that lol
EPT
keep going! i like that you're the only vote against in my poll (assuming that's you)
