On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
That exact engagement for that exact game wouldn't have happened like that if there was no Queen buff, because the builds/meta would of been completely different. Therefore, Queen buff indirectly created that situation that allowed Coca's flank.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines
1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2
MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers
regardless of that fact or not, the main point is that coca had a lot more stuff a lot earlier than he would have had prepatch, making the flank better
On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series?
Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series.
yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff
While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly.
ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished
I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built.
a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle
zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded
you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff
No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect.
For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all.
how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff.
Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank..
EPT
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