To attract a bigger amount of viewers, we have changed the date to a more suitable one. The show-match between LucifroN and Spades will happen Sunday 3rd of June (03/06/12), at 21:00 CET or 3:00PM EST. That means that there's still plenty of time to enter the giveaway, so make sure to do so!
Giveaway details below!
It is a pleasure to finally announce what surely will be a legendary encounter between two of the most renown foreigners of the game. Western Wolves' Brian “Spades” Francis will be facing the current Spanish champion Pedro “LucifroN” Moreno Duran for an epic best-of-seven battle set to begin the Sunday 3rd of June (03/06/12), at 21:00 CET or 3:00PM EST.. The former WC3 progamer is looking to continue his impressive streak, while the American veteran, who has been lurking in the shadows as of late, will be returning to the lime light. The showmatch will be shoutcasted in two languages, GLHF.tv's Martijn Bloemheuvel for the English side, and Miguel Montero and Roberto Clemente in Spanish. That's not it! We're also bringing an amazing giveaway to all of the viewers in collaboration with Western Digital.
How do I win? Simple. All you have to do is register in our website (www.westernwolves.com), and enter the contest by hitting the sign-up button on this page. You'll have the chance of winning a top tier hard drive, the Western Digital Caviar Black 500GB, with the effort of a few clicks! The winner will be announced on both streams, so make sure to tune in.
Who?: Lucifron vs Spades When?: Sunday 3rd of June (03/06/12), at 21:00 CET or 3:00PM EST. What do I win?: A Western Digital Caviar Black 500GB How do I win?: By signing-up here.
I think you guys discredit Spades too much. Guy's got skill, and it's definitely not going to be easy for Lucifron. Wouldn't be surprised to see Spades take it.
I'll put it this way. If both of these players are at the level they were when I last saw them play, then this will not be a contest. But I haven't seen Spades play in forever and he did beat me once by only rallying marines, so I guess he deserves some slack on my end.
On May 25 2012 07:55 Dalguno wrote: I think you guys discredit Spades too much. Guy's got skill, and it's definitely not going to be easy for Lucifron. Wouldn't be surprised to see Spades take it.
no we dont discredit Spades, its just that Lucifron just 4-0 Thorzain... you know the guy who beat Polt, you know the guy who beat MMA, the guy who beat Mvp :D
its just that they are not on the same level of skill...
I'm not calling it either way, but if Spades wins this I'm going to have a field day with some of the quotes here. You can say a lot of things about Luci, but even in beta, he was and still is never consistent. I have masses of respect for the guy, but I would never bet on the shape of the day he's in.
Seems a strange idea for a show match. Lucifron is miles ahead of him, he should win easily. The only thing that gives me any doubt is the luck involved in mirrors. Maybe if Spades wins a couple of coin flips he'll have a chance.
On May 25 2012 08:36 Martijn wrote: I'm not calling it either way, but if Spades wins this I'm going to have a field day with some of the quotes here. You can say a lot of things about Luci, but even in beta, he was and still is never consistent. I have masses of respect for the guy, but I would never bet on the shape of the day he's in.
Still... Spades has never been a very successful player. 32 % winrate in 2012 against players including losses to players like Glon, Roll and Pyre (no offense to these players, but none of them are close to Lucifron's level). Meanwhile, Lucifron has been owning the EU scene for the past few months including a recent 4-0 of Thorzain, who most people consider a top 5 foreigner.
Lucifron seems to be the kind of player that can beat basically anyone by sheer talent. Judging by the level he is playing at right now, I would put few foreigners as a favorite against him.
On May 25 2012 08:36 Martijn wrote: I'm not calling it either way, but if Spades wins this I'm going to have a field day with some of the quotes here. You can say a lot of things about Luci, but even in beta, he was and still is never consistent. I have masses of respect for the guy, but I would never bet on the shape of the day he's in.
Be that as it may looking at Spades record I feel that the only way for Spades to win it is if he would happen to have a very good day and Lucifron have a bad one.
Looking at Lucifron's record it also appears that his kind of inconsistency is more based around whether he's being active (when he tears through people) and when he's not (when he's being torn apart). Looking at his record from the last 6 weeks he's been doing very well with wins in The Gathering and the Scan Invite #5.
During this time his overall record is only at 65% but his TvT is at 91%. I do realize that 11 games (for the TvT) is a very small sample size but going 10-1 against meRz, BRAT_OK and ThorZaIN does count for something.
Spades' record over 2012 is at 42% overall with a 25% record on TvT. A sample size of 8 games for TvT is even smaller but the caliber of players is different: 2-6 against DieStar, Satiini and Pyre. Having said this though his most recent TvT on record was in late March so he could have improved a lot.
Having said all of this I still stand by my original opinion that Lucifron is quite likely to take this. Not going to commit myself to an exact score but I think 4-1 is the most likely one followed by a 4-0.
Western Wolves need a proper team. One semi-unknown player who has never had any significant wins is just underwhelming. Western Wolves is a pretty serious organisation, and there's tons of young players, particularly on the European server who have great potential but no serious team.
Western Wolves need a proper team. One semi-unknown player who has never had any significant wins is just underwhelming. Western Wolves is a pretty serious organisation, and there's tons of young players, particularly on the European server who have great potential but no serious team.
For those wondering, yes - we're currently looking to expand our team. However, we haven't been lucky with our search so far, but we're still seeking out some upcoming talents/good players to add to our roster.
Make sure to sign up to our giveaway guys! Takes absolutely no time, and you'll have the chance of winning a Western Digital Caviar Black 500 GB Hard Drive effortlessly.
On May 27 2012 07:47 Catatonic wrote: Bad (Spades) vs Overrated (Lucifron) guess I've no one to root for here
Says the guy with most generic list of favourite players +4 of the most actually overrated players of all time(i.e they constantly get hyped but never deliver unlike luci) nony, idra, destiny and spanishiwa all funnily enough american
I admire Western Wolves for trying hard to get more into the SC2 scene. It takes more to penetrate and make a name for yourselves in this scene than in other eSports probably, and a broadcasted Draft with sick prizes, followed by a showmatch is a good start. It's also very reassuring to see you replying to my comment about looking for a team, rather than sticking to a player, like what MYM and SK are doing, which in my opinion, is not really that beneficial, as the team looks more like a generic sponsor, than an actual team in such a situation (aside from the fact that I love team leagues).
LucifroN might be too much for Spades at the moment, since Spades hasn't been around that much recently, but it will be interesting to see what level he's at. Good luck to both players!
That must be the worst picture of Lucifron anyone has ever managed to take. Virtually in every picture I've seen of him before, he looks like a male model for Calvin Klein.
On May 27 2012 07:47 Catatonic wrote: Bad (Spades) vs Overrated (Lucifron) guess I've no one to root for here
Pretty funny you calling LucifroN overrated considering your favourite players on your sig, most of whom are heavily overrated.
If your only source of player skill Bitterdam, then yes, he is overrated. He is however one of the most solid foreigner Terrans, no question about that. There is a good chance he might very well even be the best, but hasn't been in any major tournaments that I am aware of to prove it.
On May 27 2012 13:57 MrCash wrote: That must be the worst picture of Lucifron anyone has ever managed to take. Virtually in every picture I've seen of him before, he looks like a male model for Calvin Klein.
On May 27 2012 07:47 Catatonic wrote: Bad (Spades) vs Overrated (Lucifron) guess I've no one to root for here
Says the guy with most generic list of favourite players +4 of the most actually overrated players of all time(i.e they constantly get hyped but never deliver unlike luci) nony, idra, destiny and spanishiwa all funnily enough american
On May 27 2012 07:47 Catatonic wrote: Bad (Spades) vs Overrated (Lucifron) guess I've no one to root for here
Says the guy with most generic list of favourite players +4 of the most actually overrated players of all time(i.e they constantly get hyped but never deliver unlike luci) nony, idra, destiny and spanishiwa all funnily enough american
Joined TL.net Saturday, 19th of November 2011 lol
because it has to be his first account and you cant have knowledge about past e-sports without being on TL.
still, his comment was obviously almost as dumb as the guy he answered to.
On May 27 2012 07:47 Catatonic wrote: Bad (Spades) vs Overrated (Lucifron) guess I've no one to root for here
Says the guy with most generic list of favourite players +4 of the most actually overrated players of all time(i.e they constantly get hyped but never deliver unlike luci) nony, idra, destiny and spanishiwa all funnily enough american
Joined TL.net Saturday, 19th of November 2011 lol
Solid response, hope you're practicing hard so can justify those legions of fans who have such high hopes for you!
On May 27 2012 07:47 Catatonic wrote: Bad (Spades) vs Overrated (Lucifron) guess I've no one to root for here
Says the guy with most generic list of favourite players +4 of the most actually overrated players of all time(i.e they constantly get hyped but never deliver unlike luci) nony, idra, destiny and spanishiwa all funnily enough american
Joined TL.net Saturday, 19th of November 2011 lol
because it has to be his first account and you cant have knowledge about past e-sports without being on TL.
still, his comment was obviously almost as dumb as the guy he answered to.
Going by the time you rejoineded, the fact you maintain a similar ranking blog, the way you defend the fact this account is relatively new and you're a gm protoss, Im guessing your diabolus who pretty much got permabanned from here for consistant bias and dumb posts
On May 25 2012 08:36 Martijn wrote: I'm not calling it either way, but if Spades wins this I'm going to have a field day with some of the quotes here. You can say a lot of things about Luci, but even in beta, he was and still is never consistent. I have masses of respect for the guy, but I would never bet on the shape of the day he's in.
it's like the worst insight ever. yea never consistent cause sometimes HE JUST DOESN'T play. very smart!!!! but when he is back being active, lucifron is for sure one of the most consistent EU players. he never "sucks", he always delivers. and right now, he is in that shape. and there is no such thing as "shape of the day" with luci lol, where did you get this idea?
On May 28 2012 21:19 Toxi78 wrote: it's like the worst insight ever. yea never consistent cause sometimes HE JUST DOESN'T play. very smart!!!! but when he is back being active, lucifron is for sure one of the most consistent EU players. he never "sucks", he always delivers. and right now, he is in that shape. and there is no such thing as "shape of the day" with luci lol, where did you get this idea?
First off, because periods of inactivity don't hurt your game? Think about what you're saying. Second, that has nothing to do with performing amazingly 1 day and struggling the next. No one said he "sucks", there's no need to overreact. He's a great player, and he's most certainly not the only one that has off days. Relax, adding 4 exclamation marks is not going to do anything to make your argument more convincing. I'm fully capable and willing to have a discussion here.
1 match and 1 tournament is what most people are basing their statements on. This isn't something you're going to see in a tournament because if you have a good day, you thrash through and look great. If you have a bad day on the other hand, you're out in 2 matches and no one sees a trend. Go watch his stream regularly.
Honestly, he's lucky because a lot of great players have far bigger problems and he can still put on the hurt on a lot of players even on an off day.
For anyone who is distant from Spades' play, you can catch him up on his stream right now. He's doing some commentary as well. http://www.twitch.tv/kingspades
On May 28 2012 21:19 Toxi78 wrote: it's like the worst insight ever. yea never consistent cause sometimes HE JUST DOESN'T play. very smart!!!! but when he is back being active, lucifron is for sure one of the most consistent EU players. he never "sucks", he always delivers. and right now, he is in that shape. and there is no such thing as "shape of the day" with luci lol, where did you get this idea?
First off, because periods of inactivity don't hurt your game? Think about what you're saying. Second, that has nothing to do with performing amazingly 1 day and struggling the next. No one said he "sucks", there's no need to overreact. He's a great player, and he's most certainly not the only one that has off days. Relax, adding 4 exclamation marks is not going to do anything to make your argument more convincing. I'm fully capable and willing to have a discussion here.
1 match and 1 tournament is what most people are basing their statements on. This isn't something you're going to see in a tournament because if you have a good day, you thrash through and look great. If you have a bad day on the other hand, you're out in 2 matches and no one sees a trend. Go watch his stream regularly.
Honestly, he's lucky because a lot of great players have far bigger problems and he can still put on the hurt on a lot of players even on an off day.
yea 4 exclamation marks, you clearly understand irony. awesome discussion we're about to have. it would be relevant to talk about his inconsistency because of being inactive if he had actually been inactive lately? it's not the case, why do you even bring that up? yea lucifron also was a nooby when he had never touched sc2, because you know, he had never played. what is your point? he is not inactive, you just can't talk about that to his discredit. the very idea of "sucking" means performing under your level, that's what i was refering to.you wanna play the annoying game, let's go for that, where did i say someone said he sucks? still, lucifron is not one of these players to have off days, it makes no sense to keep saying that. he is not like, say, mana, whose shape is highly unpredictable from tournament to tournament. luci has the experience at the highest level (wc3, sc2 top since BETA) that does justify the fact that he is actually a very consistent player lol. it's like you add a characteristic to a player that really doesnt have any grounds. and im not even a fanboy (i'm a friend of alastor so clearly i root against the brothers, no hard feelings at all though), it's just that it's from threads like these that people get wrong ideas and start spreading stupid ideas in the next livereport thread where luci is going to play.
On May 28 2012 21:19 Toxi78 wrote: it's like the worst insight ever. yea never consistent cause sometimes HE JUST DOESN'T play. very smart!!!! but when he is back being active, lucifron is for sure one of the most consistent EU players. he never "sucks", he always delivers. and right now, he is in that shape. and there is no such thing as "shape of the day" with luci lol, where did you get this idea?
First off, because periods of inactivity don't hurt your game? Think about what you're saying. Second, that has nothing to do with performing amazingly 1 day and struggling the next. No one said he "sucks", there's no need to overreact. He's a great player, and he's most certainly not the only one that has off days. Relax, adding 4 exclamation marks is not going to do anything to make your argument more convincing. I'm fully capable and willing to have a discussion here.
1 match and 1 tournament is what most people are basing their statements on. This isn't something you're going to see in a tournament because if you have a good day, you thrash through and look great. If you have a bad day on the other hand, you're out in 2 matches and no one sees a trend. Go watch his stream regularly.
Honestly, he's lucky because a lot of great players have far bigger problems and he can still put on the hurt on a lot of players even on an off day.
yea 4 exclamation marks, you clearly understand irony. awesome discussion we're about to have. it would be relevant to talk about his inconsistency because of being inactive if he had actually been inactive lately? it's not the case, why do you even bring that up? yea lucifron also was a nooby when he had never touched sc2, because you know, he had never played. what is your point? he is not inactive, you just can't talk about that to his discredit. the very idea of "sucking" means performing under your level, that's what i was refering to.you wanna play the annoying game, let's go for that, where did i say someone said he sucks? still, lucifron is not one of these players to have off days, it makes no sense to keep saying that. he is not like, say, mana, whose shape is highly unpredictable from tournament to tournament. luci has the experience at the highest level (wc3, sc2 top since BETA) that does justify the fact that he is actually a very consistent player lol. it's like you add a characteristic to a player that really doesnt have any grounds. and im not even a fanboy (i'm a friend of alastor so clearly i root against the brothers, no hard feelings at all though), it's just that it's from threads like these that people get wrong ideas and start spreading stupid ideas in the next livereport thread where luci is going to play.
I wouldn't bother :p lucifron has been in superb form ever since he's become active again. As you said, it's hard to be consistent when you're not actually playing!
Was watching his stream last night and he was crushing Dimaga and white ra multiple times, great player!
On May 28 2012 21:19 Toxi78 wrote: it's like the worst insight ever. yea never consistent cause sometimes HE JUST DOESN'T play. very smart!!!! but when he is back being active, lucifron is for sure one of the most consistent EU players. he never "sucks", he always delivers. and right now, he is in that shape. and there is no such thing as "shape of the day" with luci lol, where did you get this idea?
First off, because periods of inactivity don't hurt your game? Think about what you're saying. Second, that has nothing to do with performing amazingly 1 day and struggling the next. No one said he "sucks", there's no need to overreact. He's a great player, and he's most certainly not the only one that has off days. Relax, adding 4 exclamation marks is not going to do anything to make your argument more convincing. I'm fully capable and willing to have a discussion here.
1 match and 1 tournament is what most people are basing their statements on. This isn't something you're going to see in a tournament because if you have a good day, you thrash through and look great. If you have a bad day on the other hand, you're out in 2 matches and no one sees a trend. Go watch his stream regularly.
Honestly, he's lucky because a lot of great players have far bigger problems and he can still put on the hurt on a lot of players even on an off day.
yea 4 exclamation marks, you clearly understand irony. awesome discussion we're about to have. it would be relevant to talk about his inconsistency because of being inactive if he had actually been inactive lately? it's not the case, why do you even bring that up? yea lucifron also was a nooby when he had never touched sc2, because you know, he had never played. what is your point? he is not inactive, you just can't talk about thaot to his discredit. the very idea of "sucking" means performing under your level, that's what i was refering to.you wanna play the annoying game, let's go for that, where did i say someone said he sucks? still, lucifron is not one of these players to have off days, it makes no sense to keep saying that. he is not like, say, mana, whose shape is highly unpredictable from tournament to tournament. luci has the experience at the highest level (wc3, sc2 top since BETA) that does justify the fact that he is actually a very consistent player lol. it's like you add a characteristic to a player that really doesnt have any grounds. and im not even a fanboy (i'm a friend of alastor so clearly i root against the brothers, no hard feelings at all though), it's just that it's from threads like these that people get wrong ideas and start spreading stupid ideas in the next livereport thread where luci is going to play.
Uh, you're the one that brought up inactivity, not me. You're completely off about mana too ironically, mana's problem is that he is way too matchup dependent. Show me any tournaments luci has won back. First time I met luci was DH where he disappointed ( most of all disappointed himself). Luci is in the best shape he has been, I'm completely with you that he is in peak condition. He has simply had this trait even as far back as release and his mentality at least doesn't come off as very different. We're talking about an rts legend here, but even they have some faults.
The match can potentially be delayed to Sunday since that date would be more appropriate to make the event more viewer-accessible. A confirmation will be given tomorrow.
And yes, the showmatch is now officially delayed to the Sunday 3rd of June (03/06/12), at 21:00 CET or 3:00PM EST. This should be a more suitable time for all of the viewers.
On May 30 2012 03:26 chipmonklord17 wrote: lucifron 4-0'd thorzain, spades is screwed
Wow. I haven't seen any Lucifron games but if he 4-0d Thorzain (in a bo7?) then I have to watch this. Would like to see how he fairs against Koreans too.
On May 30 2012 03:26 chipmonklord17 wrote: lucifron 4-0'd thorzain, spades is screwed
Wow. I haven't seen any Lucifron games but if he 4-0d Thorzain (in a bo7?) then I have to watch this. Would like to see how he fairs against Koreans too.
The English caster has been dropped from Battle.net, so unfortunately the stream of the fourth game can only be watched in the Spanish stream. He will be back for the next map. Sorry for the inconvenience.
too bad people STILL wont realize how good spades is and if this matchup came in the future, Luci would be favored 5:2 by people on TL.
good marine tank play, good allin play, spades ftw.
spades shouldnt try to play mech, hes kinda bad with it, his marine tank seems far superior to luci and luci loves marine tank so hoping to see another epic marine-tank mirror!
On June 04 2012 06:39 KalWarkov wrote: was this played on na?
on europe.
Well I'm not too happy with my result, but I am content. Lucifron is an amazing player and it was an honor to play him. Hope to have more success in future showmatches to see how I can stand up to the biggest talents in the foreign scene. Anyways, well played Lucifron, and congrats, well deserved win.
On June 04 2012 06:39 KalWarkov wrote: was this played on na?
on europe.
Well I'm not too happy with my result, but I am content. Lucifron is an amazing player and it was an honor to play him. Hope to have more success in future showmatches to see how I can stand up to the biggest talents in the foreign scene. Anyways, well played Lucifron, and congrats, well deserved win.
Did you honestly expect to win? I am shocked you did this well. Really well played, I am sure you surprised many people with this performance.
On June 04 2012 06:39 KalWarkov wrote: was this played on na?
on europe.
Well I'm not too happy with my result, but I am content. Lucifron is an amazing player and it was an honor to play him. Hope to have more success in future showmatches to see how I can stand up to the biggest talents in the foreign scene. Anyways, well played Lucifron, and congrats, well deserved win.
Did you honestly expect to win? I am shocked you did this well. Really well played, I am sure you surprised many people with this performance.
Just out of curiousity, is TvT your best MU?
I always expect to win everything i play, and prepare accordingly. No one likes to lose, and expecting to lose is never the right way to approach a game. TvP is my best matchup, but I feel fairly confident TvT as of late. I don't doubt Lucifron was a heavy favorite, but I still do my best to win everything I play. I felt it could've easily gone either way, the coin just didn't fall on my side today. Maybe next time.
Wow I love how everyone is hating on Spades. Most expected Lucifron to 4-0 him and instead Spades did a lot better than expected and instead of giving him his props people still hate on him, when they themselves couldn't beat Spades, Lucifron or any other pro gamer that they talk shit on lol. People honestly.
On June 04 2012 08:58 PocketStarcraft29 wrote: Wow I love how everyone is hating on Spades. Most expected Lucifron to 4-0 him and instead Spades did a lot better than expected and instead of giving him his props people still hate on him, when they themselves couldn't beat Spades, Lucifron or any other pro gamer that they talk shit on lol. People honestly.
well, not being happy with this result is kind of... strange.
On June 04 2012 08:58 PocketStarcraft29 wrote: Wow I love how everyone is hating on Spades. Most expected Lucifron to 4-0 him and instead Spades did a lot better than expected and instead of giving him his props people still hate on him, when they themselves couldn't beat Spades, Lucifron or any other pro gamer that they talk shit on lol. People honestly.
well, not being happy with this result is kind of... strange.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
Well it's highly unlikely for a closed thread to be read by anyone, let alone pros, no?
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
Perhaps it is best it was closed. The tendency to witchunt, and the "guilty until proven innocence" mentality that the community sometimes adopts is dangerous, and we do not want to ruin someone's career. I do trust Nerchio's opinion, and indeed much more than my own for that matter. That being said, I do hope that the mods ask some other pros to weigh in.
On June 05 2012 05:08 ExO_ wrote: Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
Exactly, Nerchio is a big expert so we should wait his opinion.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
Why is it strange that they closed the thread after gaining an opinion from one pro? I bet you the majority of people in that thread never once watched the replay but still yelled Hacker! It's a stupid witch hunt that won't do any good other than attempt to ruin the career of a progamer.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
On June 05 2012 05:17 IMoperator wrote: The only thing I caught that might have been hacking was when Spades made a raven in the last game, basically countering lucifron's build. The caster even said "wow, how did spades know that?" or something to that effect. But that could just be him knowing how Luci plays and countering it.
DieStar made Raven in TvT almost every time. It's a viable opening specially against somone who is doing a lot of banshee openings.
On June 05 2012 05:18 ngri wrote: So what happens when you scan with this camerablock thing? Do you scan without seeing or just go to the fog of war then?
that's a very good question. From what I read (again, assuming the OP didn't flat out lie in that first post), the camera moved to an area after he scanned it, but was previously locked before that. I think the point he was making was he started reacting to something before he scanned it, then scanned it afterwards. But what's far more interesting to me is the way the camera would move like that (being locked, then suddenly moving to a scanned area without looking at the fog before scanning it). Yes he could've scanned on minimap, and then looked at said area. But its something to take into consideration.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
i agree with you in that i was using his knowledge of army movements that was listed as suspicious, to say that maybe he is right and we should RELOOK, not just accuse. im not trying to defend spades here. if this is true i hope hes banned from the community forever to hang out with the likes of deezer/combatex.
however, camera locks could be many things, not just hacking.
the suspicious thing to me, which i agree with you, is never looking in fog (IF he never looked at fog). and i wonder why nerchio didnt say anything about that...
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
Your post directly contradicts itself. You criticize others for "putting too much faith in a pro gamer" when you yourself are blindly believing a one-post anonymous account:
On June 05 2012 05:08 ExO_ wrote:I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true
There's a reason why modern legal systems operate under the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty": so stupid witch hunts don't start and tamper with due process and objective investigation. Likewise, the mods/system err on innocence until proven guilty, as this is a person with real reputation and real professional potential that could be irreversibly damaged by bullshit slander. If he is guilty, a pro will eventually come out and review it (Nerchio has already seen it so soon after the thread began, doubtless other pros have and will hear about this thread).
The whole "camera block" thing is total bull. Ive watched a couple of the replays and during the so called "blocks" spades is actually issuing commands. Like in game 1 in that 9 sec "block" he is rearranging his scvs after the banshee harass. How could he do that if he is supposed to be watching his opponents base?
On June 05 2012 05:18 ngri wrote: So what happens when you scan with this camerablock thing? Do you scan without seeing or just go to the fog of war then?
I assume he can look through fog of war all the time, but he doesnt since it is suspicous. So he freezes his cam, it will not move or anything if you check replay but in reality he's looking at the opponents base through fog of war etc.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
Your post directly contradicts itself. You criticize others for "putting too much faith in a pro gamer" when you yourself are blindly believing a one-post anonymous account:
On June 05 2012 05:08 ExO_ wrote:I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true
There's a reason why modern legal systems operate under the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty": so stupid witch hunts don't start and tamper with due process and objective investigation. Likewise, the mods/system err on innocence until proven guilty, as this is a person with real reputation and real professional potential that could be irreversibly damaged by bullshit slander. If he is guilty, a pro will eventually come out and review it (Nerchio has already seen it so soon after the thread began, doubtless other pros have and will hear about this thread).
I never said I'm 100% in agreement with the 1 post OP. So let me clearly state I don't think the thread should've been closed off the opinion of 1 pro, and I think the evidence should still be discussed. And again, I'm making a basic assumption that the camera locks and not looking in fog of war parts of the replay are true. Do you really think this is such an unreasonable assumption? I will ofc review the replays when I get home, but in my opinion if at least these parts of the OP's post aren't true then it's just flat out lying and it won't matter anyway.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
Your post directly contradicts itself. You criticize others for "putting too much faith in a pro gamer" when you yourself are blindly believing a one-post anonymous account:
On June 05 2012 05:08 ExO_ wrote:I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true
There's a reason why modern legal systems operate under the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty": so stupid witch hunts don't start and tamper with due process and objective investigation. Likewise, the mods/system err on innocence until proven guilty, as this is a person with real reputation and real professional potential that could be irreversibly damaged by bullshit slander. If he is guilty, a pro will eventually come out and review it (Nerchio has already seen it so soon after the thread began, doubtless other pros have and will hear about this thread).
I never said I'm 100% in agreement with the 1 post OP. So let me clearly state I don't think the thread should've been closed off the opinion of 1 pro, and I think the evidence should still be discussed. And again, I'm making a basic assumption that the camera locks and not looking in fog of war parts of the replay are true. Do you really think this is such an unreasonable assumption? I will ofc review the replays when I get home, but in my opinion if at least these parts of the OP's post aren't true then it's just flat out lying and it won't matter anyway.
It would have been closed eventually with or without the post from a pro. However his opinion weighs higher than most, especially yours. A person who has not watched the replays yet but wants to continue making an ass out of himself assuming. That's all that thread was turning into, if people care they will continue digging to get the "bust".
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
Your post directly contradicts itself. You criticize others for "putting too much faith in a pro gamer" when you yourself are blindly believing a one-post anonymous account:
On June 05 2012 05:08 ExO_ wrote:I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true
There's a reason why modern legal systems operate under the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty": so stupid witch hunts don't start and tamper with due process and objective investigation. Likewise, the mods/system err on innocence until proven guilty, as this is a person with real reputation and real professional potential that could be irreversibly damaged by bullshit slander. If he is guilty, a pro will eventually come out and review it (Nerchio has already seen it so soon after the thread began, doubtless other pros have and will hear about this thread).
I never said I'm 100% in agreement with the 1 post OP. So let me clearly state I don't think the thread should've been closed off the opinion of 1 pro, and I think the evidence should still be discussed. And again, I'm making a basic assumption that the camera locks and not looking in fog of war parts of the replay are true. Do you really think this is such an unreasonable assumption? I will ofc review the replays when I get home, but in my opinion if at least these parts of the OP's post aren't true then it's just flat out lying and it won't matter anyway.
"The whole "camera block" thing is total bull. Ive watched a couple of the replays and during the so called "blocks" spades is actually issuing commands. Like in game 1 in that 9 sec "block" he is rearranging his scvs after the banshee harass. How could he do that if he is supposed to be watching his opponents base?"
not the first post discrediting some of the listed 'camera blocks' (see closed thread for the others)
basically i dont think your assumptions are safe to make. your assumption is 100% tied to the outcome of the judgment. how can that be safe? just watch the replays first o.o THEN you can do w/e
Spades' play didn't seem that suspicious to me. The OP seems to make an overwhelming case against Spades because of the sheer amount of timestamps, but when you check them point by point they're not nearly as convincing as he is making it sound. It would make basically every pro replay out there look "suspicious" in comparison.
On June 05 2012 05:42 Saechiis wrote: Spades' play didn't seem that suspicious to me. The OP seems to make an overwhelming case against Spades because of the sheer amount of timestamps, but when you check them point by point they're not nearly as convincing as he is making it sound. It would make basically every pro replay out there look "suspicious" in comparison.
Yes in an isolated ladder game it wouldn't, but 7 straight games of incredible star sense, correctly scouting his opponent's direction first, and direct build order counters (including Daybreak with the 3rd cc and double e-bay) is suspicious if nothing else. In any case congratulations to Lucifron, gonna look at some more of his replays to help my horribad Terran play
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
Your post directly contradicts itself. You criticize others for "putting too much faith in a pro gamer" when you yourself are blindly believing a one-post anonymous account:
On June 05 2012 05:08 ExO_ wrote:I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true
There's a reason why modern legal systems operate under the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty": so stupid witch hunts don't start and tamper with due process and objective investigation. Likewise, the mods/system err on innocence until proven guilty, as this is a person with real reputation and real professional potential that could be irreversibly damaged by bullshit slander. If he is guilty, a pro will eventually come out and review it (Nerchio has already seen it so soon after the thread began, doubtless other pros have and will hear about this thread).
I never said I'm 100% in agreement with the 1 post OP. So let me clearly state I don't think the thread should've been closed off the opinion of 1 pro, and I think the evidence should still be discussed. And again, I'm making a basic assumption that the camera locks and not looking in fog of war parts of the replay are true. Do you really think this is such an unreasonable assumption? I will ofc review the replays when I get home, but in my opinion if at least these parts of the OP's post aren't true then it's just flat out lying and it won't matter anyway.
Whether or not you are "100% in agreement", 75% agreement, or even 25% agreement does not matter. What matter is that you're "making a basic assumption that [any one of the allegations] are true." Obviously, that is fallacious. You cannot assume that there is truth in any bit of the allegations, you can only know that someone is making allegations, period. And to repeat myself, presumption of innocence. That thread was not a neutral thread or courtroom for objective due process. It was a one-sided accusation from a source that did not present legitimate background. Nonetheless, the accusation has been aired and has been viewed by relevant authorities (moderators, pros, and any pros that they can contact). It already has been routed through appropriate avenues of review, and if you have an issue with that process, go to website feedback or reread the first rule in the TL Ten Commandments.
Bottom line, the worst decision that can be made in that scenario is leaving that thread open, because it's obviously drawing witch hunt/mob-mentality bait, which you yourself are evidence of if you're going to assume that some of the allegations are true by mere fact of them being stated rather than actual evidence, fact, or knowledge.
On June 05 2012 05:52 tsuxiit wrote: I don't think that thread should have been closed. Maybe the title and conclusion should be changed, but people need a place to discuss the evidence.
I guess that's what this thread is turning into.
I watched the replays and the op is exaggerating. Spades does some things that are suspicious but nothing really that proves him as guilty. The most suspicious thing are in fact the "camera locks" where he does nothing for a few seconds. These points in the game are weird because the rest of the time he is moving his camera pretty fast as you would expect it from a good player.
The best way to find out if these suspicious points are a prove of maphack would be to download a hack and make some tests so that we have an example for comparison. Without that you can't condemn him.
On June 05 2012 04:54 Nerchio wrote: I watched the replays more carefully and it looks like a lot of points that OP makes are false, for example 4 scv's at shakuras plateau, he took them after he saw marine in his natural. Also a lot of movement on Tal'darim looks like standard mech play with taking good spots for tanks. Other than that we should assume that Spades is not the best player so moving your army without care isn't anything special. He can also use mini-map to send his scouting worker, i do that sometimes as well. In the end i don't really think it's cheating there is a lot of points that are not true and the rest we can include into luck which happens quite often in SC2.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
Your post directly contradicts itself. You criticize others for "putting too much faith in a pro gamer" when you yourself are blindly believing a one-post anonymous account:
On June 05 2012 05:08 ExO_ wrote:I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true
There's a reason why modern legal systems operate under the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty": so stupid witch hunts don't start and tamper with due process and objective investigation. Likewise, the mods/system err on innocence until proven guilty, as this is a person with real reputation and real professional potential that could be irreversibly damaged by bullshit slander. If he is guilty, a pro will eventually come out and review it (Nerchio has already seen it so soon after the thread began, doubtless other pros have and will hear about this thread).
I never said I'm 100% in agreement with the 1 post OP. So let me clearly state I don't think the thread should've been closed off the opinion of 1 pro, and I think the evidence should still be discussed. And again, I'm making a basic assumption that the camera locks and not looking in fog of war parts of the replay are true. Do you really think this is such an unreasonable assumption? I will ofc review the replays when I get home, but in my opinion if at least these parts of the OP's post aren't true then it's just flat out lying and it won't matter anyway.
Whether or not you are "100% in agreement", 75% agreement, or even 25% agreement does not matter. What matter is that you're "making a basic assumption that [any one of the allegations] are true." Obviously, that is fallacious. You cannot assume that there is truth in any bit of the allegations, you can only know that someone is making allegations, period. And to repeat myself, presumption of innocence. That thread was not a neutral thread or courtroom for objective due process. It was a one-sided accusation from a source that did not present legitimate background. Nonetheless, the accusation has been aired and has been viewed by relevant authorities (moderators, pros, and any pros that they can contact). It already has been routed through appropriate avenues of review, and if you have an issue with that process, go to website feedback or reread the first rule in the TL Ten Commandments.
Bottom line, the worst decision that can be made in that scenario is leaving that thread open, because it's obviously drawing witch hunt/mob-mentality bait, which you yourself are evidence of if you're going to assume that some of the allegations are true by mere fact of them being stated rather than actual evidence, fact, or knowledge.
Okay fair enough. But if I watch the replays, and if the portions I'm referring to are indeed there, does it mean my opinion is all of a sudden valid?
What I'm arguing is that people need a place to discuss this, and 1 pro saying "I don't think so" shouldn't be enough to close it.
And there seems to be a lot of unreasonable hate towards assumptions in here. People make assumptions all the time, and the assumptions I'm making are quite reasonable. If the guy had been flat out lying about camera locks/Not looking at fog of war, somebody would've called him out on it by now. I will ofc review the replay myself, but I think my assumptions are perfectly reasonable, and shouldn't discredit my opinion.
Again you seem to think I'm immediately condemning Spades. I'm not. But I do think it's worth reviewing, and I think it's worth reviewing by the community as a whole. I don't think 1 pro saying he's innocent should mean that I should just accept that as fact, and I don't think the elitist tone in your posts basically telling me I'm not a pro therefore I have no idea what I'm talking about are really addressing any of the issues I'm bringing up.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
Your post directly contradicts itself. You criticize others for "putting too much faith in a pro gamer" when you yourself are blindly believing a one-post anonymous account:
On June 05 2012 05:08 ExO_ wrote:I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true
There's a reason why modern legal systems operate under the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty": so stupid witch hunts don't start and tamper with due process and objective investigation. Likewise, the mods/system err on innocence until proven guilty, as this is a person with real reputation and real professional potential that could be irreversibly damaged by bullshit slander. If he is guilty, a pro will eventually come out and review it (Nerchio has already seen it so soon after the thread began, doubtless other pros have and will hear about this thread).
I never said I'm 100% in agreement with the 1 post OP. So let me clearly state I don't think the thread should've been closed off the opinion of 1 pro, and I think the evidence should still be discussed. And again, I'm making a basic assumption that the camera locks and not looking in fog of war parts of the replay are true. Do you really think this is such an unreasonable assumption? I will ofc review the replays when I get home, but in my opinion if at least these parts of the OP's post aren't true then it's just flat out lying and it won't matter anyway.
Whether or not you are "100% in agreement", 75% agreement, or even 25% agreement does not matter. What matter is that you're "making a basic assumption that [any one of the allegations] are true." Obviously, that is fallacious. You cannot assume that there is truth in any bit of the allegations, you can only know that someone is making allegations, period. And to repeat myself, presumption of innocence. That thread was not a neutral thread or courtroom for objective due process. It was a one-sided accusation from a source that did not present legitimate background. Nonetheless, the accusation has been aired and has been viewed by relevant authorities (moderators, pros, and any pros that they can contact). It already has been routed through appropriate avenues of review, and if you have an issue with that process, go to website feedback or reread the first rule in the TL Ten Commandments.
Bottom line, the worst decision that can be made in that scenario is leaving that thread open, because it's obviously drawing witch hunt/mob-mentality bait, which you yourself are evidence of if you're going to assume that some of the allegations are true by mere fact of them being stated rather than actual evidence, fact, or knowledge.
Okay fair enough. But if I watch the replays, and if the portions I'm referring to are indeed there, does it mean my opinion is all of a sudden valid?
What I'm arguing is that people need a place to discuss this, and 1 pro saying "I don't think so" shouldn't be enough to close it.
And there seems to be a lot of unreasonable hate towards assumptions in here. People make assumptions all the time, and the assumptions I'm making are quite reasonable. If the guy had been flat out lying about camera locks/Not looking at fog of war, somebody would've called him out on it by now. I will ofc review the replay myself, but I think my assumptions are perfectly reasonable, and shouldn't discredit my opinion.
Again you seem to think I'm immediately condemning Spades. I'm not. But I do think it's worth reviewing, and I think it's worth reviewing by the community as a whole. I don't think 1 pro saying he's innocent should mean that I should just accept that as fact, and I don't think the elitist tone in your posts basically telling me I'm not a pro therefore I have no idea what I'm talking about are really addressing any of the issues I'm bringing up.
I don't it even matters anymore whether or not these accusations are true or false. I think that this incident of accusing is enough to do some damage so that whenever we think of major, princess, or terran, w/e his name is now and in the future, we'll have a hint of suspicion.
Don't jump on the witch hunt so soon folks. Nerchio took a look at the replays and tossed up his opinion on it.
After which the thread was immediately closed by a mod. I don't know about that, the OP of the thread provided an insanely detailed log of 'suspicious actions', and while I agree not all of them were true it is quite weird to insta-close a thread based on 1 pro opinion? I hope the thread can be re-opened.
mod said *until a pro disagrees* its closed. i think thats fair enough.
why should the opinion of 1 pro be enough to close it? Is said pro somehow smarter than everybody else when it comes to matters of hacking? Its likely OP of that thread exaggeratted some points, but some points were not exaggerated. I think the closing of the thread was a bit early and more to avoid a mass witch hunt, even though the witch hunt might be correct.
Anybody else notice that the mod that closed it said something along the lines of "the OP has ties to lucifron". That comment seemed to come entirely out of left field
its not enough to close it indefinitely, its enough to PAUSE (something that the community cannot do), TAKE A SECOND LOOK (something else the community cant do), and REJUDGE the accusation (something that the community wont do without it being closed), BEFORE saying he hacked.
i still think its debatable and i do not fully agree with Nerchio but I am going to wait for more pro opinions, because why?
They do actually know better than you when it comes to what actions at a high level of play could be suspicious.
I think it's safe to say you don't need to be a high level player to understand a few fundamental things: Never looking in fog of war is strange. Stranger, is the camera pausing in certain areas of your base for more than 1-2 seconds with no actions being issued, espicially as the game gets past the early game. I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true....otherwise it'll be obvious they aren't and this will all go away quickly anyway.
That being said, your putting too much faith in a pro gamer. A pro gamer is just a guy like you and me. The only area in which a pro's opinion would be more valid than somebody with a decent level of game knowledge would be with specific army movements, build orders, strategies, etc....none of which are what I would consider the "evidence" in this case. People get lucky and spot things all the time, or randomly move their troops to the right place at the right time. Camera locks and never looking in fog....that seems highly unusual to me.
Your post directly contradicts itself. You criticize others for "putting too much faith in a pro gamer" when you yourself are blindly believing a one-post anonymous account:
On June 05 2012 05:08 ExO_ wrote:I'm not currently at home so I cannot review the replays for myself, but I'm going to assume that at least the camera lock bits in the OP were true
There's a reason why modern legal systems operate under the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty": so stupid witch hunts don't start and tamper with due process and objective investigation. Likewise, the mods/system err on innocence until proven guilty, as this is a person with real reputation and real professional potential that could be irreversibly damaged by bullshit slander. If he is guilty, a pro will eventually come out and review it (Nerchio has already seen it so soon after the thread began, doubtless other pros have and will hear about this thread).
I never said I'm 100% in agreement with the 1 post OP. So let me clearly state I don't think the thread should've been closed off the opinion of 1 pro, and I think the evidence should still be discussed. And again, I'm making a basic assumption that the camera locks and not looking in fog of war parts of the replay are true. Do you really think this is such an unreasonable assumption? I will ofc review the replays when I get home, but in my opinion if at least these parts of the OP's post aren't true then it's just flat out lying and it won't matter anyway.
Whether or not you are "100% in agreement", 75% agreement, or even 25% agreement does not matter. What matter is that you're "making a basic assumption that [any one of the allegations] are true." Obviously, that is fallacious. You cannot assume that there is truth in any bit of the allegations, you can only know that someone is making allegations, period. And to repeat myself, presumption of innocence. That thread was not a neutral thread or courtroom for objective due process. It was a one-sided accusation from a source that did not present legitimate background. Nonetheless, the accusation has been aired and has been viewed by relevant authorities (moderators, pros, and any pros that they can contact). It already has been routed through appropriate avenues of review, and if you have an issue with that process, go to website feedback or reread the first rule in the TL Ten Commandments.
Bottom line, the worst decision that can be made in that scenario is leaving that thread open, because it's obviously drawing witch hunt/mob-mentality bait, which you yourself are evidence of if you're going to assume that some of the allegations are true by mere fact of them being stated rather than actual evidence, fact, or knowledge.
Okay fair enough. But if I watch the replays, and if the portions I'm referring to are indeed there, does it mean my opinion is all of a sudden valid?
What I'm arguing is that people need a place to discuss this, and 1 pro saying "I don't think so" shouldn't be enough to close it.
And there seems to be a lot of unreasonable hate towards assumptions in here. People make assumptions all the time, and the assumptions I'm making are quite reasonable. If the guy had been flat out lying about camera locks/Not looking at fog of war, somebody would've called him out on it by now. I will ofc review the replay myself, but I think my assumptions are perfectly reasonable, and shouldn't discredit my opinion.
Again you seem to think I'm immediately condemning Spades. I'm not. But I do think it's worth reviewing, and I think it's worth reviewing by the community as a whole. I don't think 1 pro saying he's innocent should mean that I should just accept that as fact, and I don't think the elitist tone in your posts basically telling me I'm not a pro therefore I have no idea what I'm talking about are really addressing any of the issues I'm bringing up.
I don't care whether you condemn Spades or not. You seem to still be missing the point though: the mere fact that a person makes allegations does not merit those allegations freestanding until disproven. Your only argument is that there has to "be a forum for discussion," but there's nothing to discuss about a false allegation until a claim is actual serious. Otherwise, anyone could throw up any number of half-baked seemingly legitimate posts of accusations while leading everyone astray with redherrings and bullshit clogging the forums.
The fact remains that it was okay for moderators to close that thread because pros and other valuable members of the community still had access and relevant information was able to be PM'd to moderators. All in all, it filters the bullshit witch hunt posts (see: the first page of the thread, where there were at least three posts already calling hate on Spades without any sort of verification or confirmation). Again I will repeat: how the moderators handled it seemed to pan out perfectly fine.
On June 04 2012 08:58 PocketStarcraft29 wrote: Wow I love how everyone is hating on Spades. Most expected Lucifron to 4-0 him and instead Spades did a lot better than expected and instead of giving him his props people still hate on him, when they themselves couldn't beat Spades, Lucifron or any other pro gamer that they talk shit on lol. People honestly.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i48.tinypic.com/fmme75.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://pics.mobilluck.com.ua/thumb/hdd_pc/WD/WD_500Gb__WD5002AALX__7200rpm_32Mb_Cache_Caviar_Black_SATA_III_43319_68736.jpg)
SCAN Invitational 5![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xelhw.jpg)
