On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
On May 21 2012 14:33 CursOr wrote: Ya, Broodwar TvT can become such a clusterfuck. It's so hard to play it's indescribable. From all the MU in both games, I think this one is the biggest headache.
It's probably the least volatile though. The better player almost always wins.
Explain the Skyhigh phenomonon then :/
The anomaly! He's still legitimately good at TvT, then again, that can be said of every BW player's good match ups, maybe except ZvP with the kind of cheap-win hydralisk thing a while back. Haha.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
That is one way to put it. With that, comes more chances for comebacks, more chances for like "counter mistakes" and less losing to not A-moving your army in the 2 second window, or getting your Nexus/CC/Hatchery sniped in 3 seconds. Also less base race scenarios. But, I love both games for what they are.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
That's exactly what was happening. sc2 tvt's are starting to look more like this with tank lines holding important positions. The difference is that bio is suicidal in bw tvt, so everyone plays mech. This makes dropships a lot more difficult to get to, though they are arguably just as strong as in sc2 thanks to the mobility they give you.
Speed was behind after his aggressive opening was pushed back. He tried to take advantage of earlier siege mode to push into the nat, but he eventually was pushed back and lost too many tanks to keep that position. Also, the cloacked wraiths meant he needed to pull back and make detection. The real issue was that he didn't expand until after the attack was held off. If he had built his cc while his attack was going,he might have been able to play it off from there, but instead he was just economically behind the whole game. Wraiths also have this strange role where they are really weak, but their presence forces so much from your opponent that they are often worth it. Also, once you get wraiths in big enough numbers they are amazing, so your opponent has to take it seriously and make anti air.
On May 21 2012 14:33 CursOr wrote: Ya, Broodwar TvT can become such a clusterfuck. It's so hard to play it's indescribable. From all the MU in both games, I think this one is the biggest headache.
It's probably the least volatile though. The better player almost always wins.
Explain the Skyhigh phenomonon then :/
The anomaly! He's still legitimately good at TvT, then again, that can be said of every BW player's good match ups, maybe except ZvP with the kind of cheap-win hydralisk thing a while back. Haha.
what do you mean a while back, its still happening, 3 hatch hydra is mind numbingly stupid but sucessful.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with terran AI. Everything is butter smooth and units are extremely responsive. If you mentioned protoss and dragoons, maybe I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
That is one way to put it. With that, comes more chances for comebacks, more chances for like "counter mistakes" and less losing to not A-moving your army in the 2 second window, or getting your Nexus/CC/Hatchery sniped in 3 seconds. Also less base race scenarios. But, I love both games for what they are.
i agree about the base race part lol. Sometimes i wish they could do something about that but there really isn't anything. Same thing happens in the BW custom maps in sc2. The new ui just allows for basetrades and crap.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with terran AI. Everything is butter smooth and units are extremely responsive. If you mentioned protoss and dragoons, maybe I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
Your insane, BW is one big race against the pathfinding issues. Terran has the least issues for sure, but i was talking in general not terran in specific. Read the damn posts you criticize.
As for TvT? I think a lot of these games don't showcase BW that well (most of these players skills aren't as great due to SC2 practice).
A good back and forth TvT (last SPL finals: Flash vs Fantasy) (Edit - If you don't want to watch the whole thing, I suggest just skipping around every 3-5 min part to see major engagements)
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
That's exactly what was happening. sc2 tvt's are starting to look more like this with tank lines holding important positions. The difference is that bio is suicidal in bw tvt, so everyone plays mech. This makes dropships a lot more difficult to get to, though they are arguably just as strong as in sc2 thanks to the mobility they give you.
Speed was behind after his aggressive opening was pushed back. He tried to take advantage of earlier siege mode to push into the nat, but he eventually was pushed back and lost too many tanks to keep that position. Also, the cloacked wraiths meant he needed to pull back and make detection. The real issue was that he didn't expand until after the attack was held off. If he had built his cc while his attack was going,he might have been able to play it off from there, but instead he was just economically behind the whole game. Wraiths also have this strange role where they are really weak, but their presence forces so much from your opponent that they are often worth it. Also, once you get wraiths in big enough numbers they are amazing, so your opponent has to take it seriously and make anti air.
I see so wraiths are like banshees except they are actually good if you have enough haha. I wonder how these players feel about having to use so much bio in SC2 at least until they introduce the battle hellion.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with terran AI. Everything is butter smooth and units are extremely responsive. If you mentioned protoss and dragoons, maybe I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
My guess is SC2 will have messed up Effort's game too much, and he will have trouble. Baby is a monster, and if he's been exlusively BW... he will be real trouble.
edit: Just for clarity though, I thought EffOrt was the best BW player. I'm sure a ton of people would argue with that, but he's really something special. His Zerg does things you don't think are possible.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with terran AI. Everything is butter smooth and units are extremely responsive. If you mentioned protoss and dragoons, maybe I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
Game is never won instantly. It's won over small battles and small advantages. You almost never attack them after you've killed alot of scvs, but you wait until you have a sizable advantage, and then you abuse that advantage. Positioning is so key in TvT. 3 Sieged tanks can kill 6 unsieged tanks coming in the wrong angle. So not only should you wait until your economy kicks in, but you have to be super careful how you engage the other terran.
EPT
