On May 21 2012 14:05 novamarine wrote: The seats seem pretty empty...
unfortunately the sudden attack(FPS) season started before they took the evening timeslot, I think it will be like this this week and later subjected to change.
On May 21 2012 14:21 Harem wrote: 01:17 @Kimoleon • q - congrats jaedongu 01:17 @Kimoleon • q - you must've been a little dissapointed in yesterday's game 01:18 @Kimoleon • jd - we prepared a lot, but I'm not worrying much about it 01:18 @Kimoleon • q - did you think your opponent would play some kind of allinish play 01:18 @Kimoleon • jd - herojoin has an agressive style, so I prepared for that 01:18 @Kimoleon • q - yesterday you lost all your sc2 games, how is team8's sc2 skills 01:19 @Kimoleon • jd - I think we're around the middle, but broadcast games are just one game, momentary decisions are important I think 01:19 @Kimoleon • q - you gotta bring back your pace this season, what do you think 01:20 @Kimoleon • jd - we prepared hard, and still doing it, doing two games is tough, I'll do my best to show my past form 01:20 @Kimoleon • q - you showed a struggling game vs toss, in sc2 how is zerg treating you? 01:21 @Kimoleon • jd - I don't think I'm not good yet, i do feel lacking in my play, it's not that I feel stress from the limitations of zerg 01:21 @Kimoleon • q - hope you have better matches in the future~ jd - ty
On May 21 2012 14:21 Harem wrote: 01:17 @Kimoleon • q - congrats jaedongu 01:17 @Kimoleon • q - you must've been a little dissapointed in yesterday's game 01:18 @Kimoleon • jd - we prepared a lot, but I'm not worrying much about it 01:18 @Kimoleon • q - did you think your opponent would play some kind of allinish play 01:18 @Kimoleon • jd - herojoin has an agressive style, so I prepared for that 01:18 @Kimoleon • q - yesterday you lost all your sc2 games, how is team8's sc2 skills 01:19 @Kimoleon • jd - I think we're around the middle, but broadcast games are just one game, momentary decisions are important I think 01:19 @Kimoleon • q - you gotta bring back your pace this season, what do you think 01:20 @Kimoleon • jd - we prepared hard, and still doing it, doing two games is tough, I'll do my best to show my past form 01:20 @Kimoleon • q - you showed a struggling game vs toss, in sc2 how is zerg treating you? 01:21 @Kimoleon • jd - I don't think I'm not good yet, i do feel lacking in my play, it's not that I feel stress from the limitations of zerg 01:21 @Kimoleon • q - hope you have better matches in the future~ jd - ty
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
On May 21 2012 14:21 Harem wrote: 01:17 @Kimoleon • q - congrats jaedongu 01:17 @Kimoleon • q - you must've been a little dissapointed in yesterday's game 01:18 @Kimoleon • jd - we prepared a lot, but I'm not worrying much about it 01:18 @Kimoleon • q - did you think your opponent would play some kind of allinish play 01:18 @Kimoleon • jd - herojoin has an agressive style, so I prepared for that 01:18 @Kimoleon • q - yesterday you lost all your sc2 games, how is team8's sc2 skills 01:19 @Kimoleon • jd - I think we're around the middle, but broadcast games are just one game, momentary decisions are important I think 01:19 @Kimoleon • q - you gotta bring back your pace this season, what do you think 01:20 @Kimoleon • jd - we prepared hard, and still doing it, doing two games is tough, I'll do my best to show my past form 01:20 @Kimoleon • q - you showed a struggling game vs toss, in sc2 how is zerg treating you? 01:21 @Kimoleon • jd - I don't think I'm not good yet, i do feel lacking in my play, it's not that I feel stress from the limitations of zerg 01:21 @Kimoleon • q - hope you have better matches in the future~ jd - ty
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
I think it's awesome
I made a thread a LONG time ago... asking if people thought BW would eventually become popular again through people backtracing from SC2. I think that would be awesome. But, as for players, I don't think it's possible to play BOTH games at a high level. Should designate players for each.
On May 21 2012 14:24 sharky246 wrote: hope team 8 wins this game so we can move on to the sc2 matches
this is tvt son. This is the shit Artosis is always pining for in gom casts. Speed just gambled and lost big time and we're probably still going to be here for half an hour.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Ya, Broodwar TvT can become such a clusterfuck. It's so hard to play it's indescribable. From all the MU in both games, I think this one is the biggest headache.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
I think it's awesome
I made a thread a LONG time ago... asking if people thought BW would eventually become popular again through people backtracing from SC2. I think that would be awesome. But, as for players, I don't think it's possible to play BOTH games at a high level. Should designate players for each.
Haha, I think we are talking about 2 different things.
In the meantime that comsat seemed like it took forever to finish, lol
I love when it gets to squads of drop ships hitting sieged positions with Golioths and unsieged tanks, and the squads chasing each other around the map. It's awesome.
On May 21 2012 14:33 CursOr wrote: Ya, Broodwar TvT can become such a clusterfuck. It's so hard to play it's indescribable. From all the MU in both games, I think this one is the biggest headache.
It's probably the least volatile though. The better player almost always wins.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
On May 21 2012 14:33 CursOr wrote: Ya, Broodwar TvT can become such a clusterfuck. It's so hard to play it's indescribable. From all the MU in both games, I think this one is the biggest headache.
It's probably the least volatile though. The better player almost always wins.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
Yep. This was a pretty typical TvT. Siege tanks define this matchup. The players will eventually try to split the map in half by building a wall of siege tanks and turrets. When that happens, they often build a crapload of starports to churn out battlecruisers to break the stalemate. Usually ends in a epic showdown between battlecruisers and wraiths.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
On May 21 2012 14:33 CursOr wrote: Ya, Broodwar TvT can become such a clusterfuck. It's so hard to play it's indescribable. From all the MU in both games, I think this one is the biggest headache.
It's probably the least volatile though. The better player almost always wins.
Explain the Skyhigh phenomonon then :/
The anomaly! He's still legitimately good at TvT, then again, that can be said of every BW player's good match ups, maybe except ZvP with the kind of cheap-win hydralisk thing a while back. Haha.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
That is one way to put it. With that, comes more chances for comebacks, more chances for like "counter mistakes" and less losing to not A-moving your army in the 2 second window, or getting your Nexus/CC/Hatchery sniped in 3 seconds. Also less base race scenarios. But, I love both games for what they are.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
That's exactly what was happening. sc2 tvt's are starting to look more like this with tank lines holding important positions. The difference is that bio is suicidal in bw tvt, so everyone plays mech. This makes dropships a lot more difficult to get to, though they are arguably just as strong as in sc2 thanks to the mobility they give you.
Speed was behind after his aggressive opening was pushed back. He tried to take advantage of earlier siege mode to push into the nat, but he eventually was pushed back and lost too many tanks to keep that position. Also, the cloacked wraiths meant he needed to pull back and make detection. The real issue was that he didn't expand until after the attack was held off. If he had built his cc while his attack was going,he might have been able to play it off from there, but instead he was just economically behind the whole game. Wraiths also have this strange role where they are really weak, but their presence forces so much from your opponent that they are often worth it. Also, once you get wraiths in big enough numbers they are amazing, so your opponent has to take it seriously and make anti air.
On May 21 2012 14:33 CursOr wrote: Ya, Broodwar TvT can become such a clusterfuck. It's so hard to play it's indescribable. From all the MU in both games, I think this one is the biggest headache.
It's probably the least volatile though. The better player almost always wins.
Explain the Skyhigh phenomonon then :/
The anomaly! He's still legitimately good at TvT, then again, that can be said of every BW player's good match ups, maybe except ZvP with the kind of cheap-win hydralisk thing a while back. Haha.
what do you mean a while back, its still happening, 3 hatch hydra is mind numbingly stupid but sucessful.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with terran AI. Everything is butter smooth and units are extremely responsive. If you mentioned protoss and dragoons, maybe I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
That is one way to put it. With that, comes more chances for comebacks, more chances for like "counter mistakes" and less losing to not A-moving your army in the 2 second window, or getting your Nexus/CC/Hatchery sniped in 3 seconds. Also less base race scenarios. But, I love both games for what they are.
i agree about the base race part lol. Sometimes i wish they could do something about that but there really isn't anything. Same thing happens in the BW custom maps in sc2. The new ui just allows for basetrades and crap.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with terran AI. Everything is butter smooth and units are extremely responsive. If you mentioned protoss and dragoons, maybe I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
Your insane, BW is one big race against the pathfinding issues. Terran has the least issues for sure, but i was talking in general not terran in specific. Read the damn posts you criticize.
As for TvT? I think a lot of these games don't showcase BW that well (most of these players skills aren't as great due to SC2 practice).
A good back and forth TvT (last SPL finals: Flash vs Fantasy) (Edit - If you don't want to watch the whole thing, I suggest just skipping around every 3-5 min part to see major engagements)
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
That's exactly what was happening. sc2 tvt's are starting to look more like this with tank lines holding important positions. The difference is that bio is suicidal in bw tvt, so everyone plays mech. This makes dropships a lot more difficult to get to, though they are arguably just as strong as in sc2 thanks to the mobility they give you.
Speed was behind after his aggressive opening was pushed back. He tried to take advantage of earlier siege mode to push into the nat, but he eventually was pushed back and lost too many tanks to keep that position. Also, the cloacked wraiths meant he needed to pull back and make detection. The real issue was that he didn't expand until after the attack was held off. If he had built his cc while his attack was going,he might have been able to play it off from there, but instead he was just economically behind the whole game. Wraiths also have this strange role where they are really weak, but their presence forces so much from your opponent that they are often worth it. Also, once you get wraiths in big enough numbers they are amazing, so your opponent has to take it seriously and make anti air.
I see so wraiths are like banshees except they are actually good if you have enough haha. I wonder how these players feel about having to use so much bio in SC2 at least until they introduce the battle hellion.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with terran AI. Everything is butter smooth and units are extremely responsive. If you mentioned protoss and dragoons, maybe I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
My guess is SC2 will have messed up Effort's game too much, and he will have trouble. Baby is a monster, and if he's been exlusively BW... he will be real trouble.
edit: Just for clarity though, I thought EffOrt was the best BW player. I'm sure a ton of people would argue with that, but he's really something special. His Zerg does things you don't think are possible.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with terran AI. Everything is butter smooth and units are extremely responsive. If you mentioned protoss and dragoons, maybe I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
Game is never won instantly. It's won over small battles and small advantages. You almost never attack them after you've killed alot of scvs, but you wait until you have a sizable advantage, and then you abuse that advantage. Positioning is so key in TvT. 3 Sieged tanks can kill 6 unsieged tanks coming in the wrong angle. So not only should you wait until your economy kicks in, but you have to be super careful how you engage the other terran.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
Game is never won instantly. It's won over small battles and small advantages. You almost never attack them after you've killed alot of scvs, but you wait until you have a sizable advantage, and then you abuse that advantage. Positioning is so key in TvT. 3 Sieged tanks can kill 6 unsieged tanks coming in the wrong angle. So not only should you wait until your economy kicks in, but you have to be super careful how you engage the other terran.
Makes sense. Kind of like SC2 but a bit amplified from the sound of it.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
That is one way to put it. With that, comes more chances for comebacks, more chances for like "counter mistakes" and less losing to not A-moving your army in the 2 second window, or getting your Nexus/CC/Hatchery sniped in 3 seconds. Also less base race scenarios. But, I love both games for what they are.
i agree about the base race part lol. Sometimes i wish they could do something about that but there really isn't anything. Same thing happens in the BW custom maps in sc2. The new ui just allows for basetrades and crap.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with terran AI. Everything is butter smooth and units are extremely responsive. If you mentioned protoss and dragoons, maybe I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
Your insane, BW is one big race against the pathfinding issues. Terran has the least issues for sure, but i was talking in general not terran in specific. Read the damn posts you criticize.
Your post doesn't make sense. Have you even played BW? If you tell a unit to move/rally somewhere, it gets there reliably and always when you expect it (barring extremely unusual maps like bluestorm). I think what you are intending to say instead is that there is too much of defender's advantage and players who are behind can delay an inevitable loss for too long. I simply cannot agree to this either. Just because someone falls behind in the game shouldn't mean that he automatically lose that game (unlike most sc2 games for example). People come back from disadvatnges from all the time -- and these tend to be the best games -- and you would not believe some of the come backs that players have pulled off in the past.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
It's not the AI. It's the much much more powerful high ground advantage and the abundance of units that can hold ground. Siege tanks are much more effective in BW, zerg has the lurker/defiler and protoss has the reaver. The only time any faction in SC2 had anything close to BW-level defense, khaydarin amulet got nerfed because of all the whining.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
tvt is an extreme example due to how much of a defenders advantage tanks get. This is still true in sc2 tvt, but we just see less mech in general because of the marauder and relatively weaker tanks. Still, you are missing the point. Games are not longer just because players are fighting the ai to take the win they have already earned. It's more that the player control is really evident.
At the end of that last game, bbyong really could and did just a move through to win. However he was already 60 supply ahead and couldn't be stopped. In general, the difficulties with ai as well as the years of experience mean that the difference proper planning and control makes is huge. A well positioned and well microed army is several times as effective as an A moved army in bw.
A great example is tanks. bw tanks are strong than sc2 tanks in terams of how effective their pure damage output is. However, the bw ai will simply make every tank fire at the first thing that comes in range. This means that a smart player can lead out with a few cheap units that will take the entire first volley of tank shots. In sc2, the ai will automatically avoid overkill and split your tank fire to spread over the opponents army. You can see this as a fault of the bw ai, but the result is that the good player who is able to stop their tanks from firing or manually focus fire different targets with different tanks is much much more effective with fewer units than the casual player.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
It's not the AI. It's the much much more powerful high ground advantage and the abundance of units that can hold ground. Siege tanks are much more effective in BW, zerg has the lurker/defiler and protoss has the reaver. The only time any faction in SC2 had anything close to BW-level defense, khaydarin amulet got nerfed because of all the whining.
Also the need for less workers, less saturation, less guys on gas, bigger armies and more micro.. but I would put that pathing as the #1 difference.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
tvt is an extreme example due to how much of a defenders advantage tanks get. This is still true in sc2 tvt, but we just see less mech in general because of the marauder and relatively weaker tanks. Still, you are missing the point. Games are not longer just because players are fighting the ai to take the win they have already earned. It's more that the player control is really evident.
At the end of that last game, bbyong really could and did just a move through to win. However he was already 60 supply ahead and couldn't be stopped. In general, the difficulties with ai as well as the years of experience mean that the difference proper planning and control makes is huge. A well positioned and well microed army is several times as effective as an A moved army in bw.
A great example is tanks. bw tanks are strong than sc2 tanks in terams of how effective their pure damage output is. However, the bw ai will simply make every tank fire at the first thing that comes in range. This means that a smart player can lead out with a few cheap units that will take the entire first volley of tank shots. In sc2, the ai will automatically avoid overkill and split your tank fire to spread over the opponents army. You can see this as a fault of the bw ai, but the result is that the good player who is able to stop their tanks from firing or manually focus fire different targets with different tanks is much much more effective with fewer units than the casual player.
I understand where you're going with this but in SC2 Terrans still control where their tanks (and other units) are firing. Specifically they need to be hitting banelings/infestors. Sure the difference between microed and unmicroed tanks isn't as big in SC2 but it is still there.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
You don't know what you're talking about. The reason why TvT's are long and hard to finish off is because tanks in siege mode are very good at defending, and to a lesser extent because turrets are very good cheap anti-air structures, so the defender always have the advantage, meaning you have to outnumber him or pick battles that favors you. It's very rare in TvT that you win a game by overwhelming your opponent. You need to expose his weaknesses and tear down his army, or secure tank lines on key positions to prevent him from expanding.
On May 21 2012 14:41 takingbackoj wrote: Are BW Tvt's normally like this? Im not exactly sure whats going on but it looks like an intense contain.
BW is different in that you usually dont lose over the course of 10 seconds, but like 8 minutes. It can be just as decisive, but the pathing makes it unfold more dynamically.
another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
On May 21 2012 14:44 MegaFonzie wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:38 darklight54321 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:33 sharky246 wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:29 GreYMisT wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:26 CursOr wrote:
On May 21 2012 14:24 GreYMisT wrote: Having to micro between two LR threads is hard -.-
Are we sure we can't just add another tab on the sidebar for Hybrid Proleague? haha.
I just didnt want the SC2 crowd to miss that this was going on. And it wouldn't be right if this was under the thread that was used yesterday.
I agree with that, its just that the general consensus before yesterday was that we should have 2 LR threads in both the BW and SC2 section. Its just a bit weird with the BW people in here explaining things and the SC2 people in the BW section and all the questions being answered 4 times in both threads
But whatever, we are all here for starcraft. And Jaedong won, so all is right in the world
Why would you do this?!
read the LR for the opening day. One is full of excitement and even some what overzealous criticism. The other is full of hate. Most sc2 players, even if hey used to be big bw players, try to avoid the bw forums because no matter what bw is king. No matter what, the bw forum is always right about everything.
I actually saw some people in the BW LR thread who I never in a million years would of thought would stick around for the sc2 section show genuine enthusiasm about the games.
i'm not saying it's everyone, but there are a lot of people who are so closed to how good sc2 actually is that they are willing to bash their favorite players and teams just to try and feel good.
tvt is an extreme example due to how much of a defenders advantage tanks get. This is still true in sc2 tvt, but we just see less mech in general because of the marauder and relatively weaker tanks. Still, you are missing the point. Games are not longer just because players are fighting the ai to take the win they have already earned. It's more that the player control is really evident.
At the end of that last game, bbyong really could and did just a move through to win. However he was already 60 supply ahead and couldn't be stopped. In general, the difficulties with ai as well as the years of experience mean that the difference proper planning and control makes is huge. A well positioned and well microed army is several times as effective as an A moved army in bw.
A great example is tanks. bw tanks are strong than sc2 tanks in terams of how effective their pure damage output is. However, the bw ai will simply make every tank fire at the first thing that comes in range. This means that a smart player can lead out with a few cheap units that will take the entire first volley of tank shots. In sc2, the ai will automatically avoid overkill and split your tank fire to spread over the opponents army. You can see this as a fault of the bw ai, but the result is that the good player who is able to stop their tanks from firing or manually focus fire different targets with different tanks is much much more effective with fewer units than the casual player.
I understand where you're going with this but in SC2 Terrans still control where their tanks (and other units) are firing. Specifically they need to be hitting banelings/infestors. Sure the difference between microed and unmicroed tanks isn't as big in SC2 but it is still there.
I know there is still control in sc2, and prioritizing targets is always important. I just used tanks as a an example though. Almost every unit will be like this in bw.
Another example is lings. Lings will auto-surround in sc2 and not in bw. Think of the effect when you have 20+ chargelots attacking a position and a bunch of them run back and forth behind the front line before engaging. bw lings will do that even in small numbers. Again, this can be seen as just a poor ai. It means bw zergs will right click past their target with lings and then a move once the lings are surrounding. It's only one more click, but it can literally mean the difference between winnings a fight vs killing only 1 or 2 marines.
The point I was trying to make is that it is not correct to say that bw players just watch to see if the guy who has "won" will make a mistake in dealing with shitty ai before he really wins. Rather, there are myriad things that allow a player to distinguish himself, and so you can see small edges be taken or lost often. I wont go into why I feel sc2 can be lacking in this, because this really isn't the place.
On May 21 2012 15:13 UTL_Unlimited wrote: Skyhigh TvT rigged as FUCK in SC1. Will it be the same?
Haven't watched Skyhigh in a while. Hasn't the general impression been that his TvT has fallen off a lot?
He just fell off period. His TvT is still dominating (other than the loss to Fantasy which was a never to happen thing) but his overall 'force' is gone so even his really good TvT seems weaker.
Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
As has been said before, don't expect top tier level play yet. They haven't played long enough not even close. People need to realize this...
Commentators: All right watchers, that's a TECH LAB. If you attach it to a STARPORT then you get a BANSHEE. We know that because a VIKING doesn't need a TECH LAB.
Also in the beginning the commentators were like: guys. 1 1 1 is REALLYYYY good. Like expect it.
Rather interesting build here. The idea being the banshees draw out marines from bunkers and hellions kill the marines or harass from the front. Nice idea but I dont think the timing works well and wont do enough damage to justify the cost more then just traditional banshee opening.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
As has been said before, don't expect top tier level play yet. They haven't played long enough not even close. People need to realize this...
I know, which is why I said "Still lots of time to improve though".
I don't understand why he thought running the helions into the main was a good idea. His banshee obviously made the marines pull back so why not attack the undefended base?
On May 21 2012 15:22 McFeser wrote: I don't understand why he thought running the helions into the main was a good idea. His banshee obviously made the marines pull back so why not attack the undefended base?
I think he was trying to kill the marines or injure them enough to give his banshee free reign?
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
As has been said before, don't expect top tier level play yet. They haven't played long enough not even close. People need to realize this...
I know, which is why I said "Still lots of time to improve though".
You said that yes, still irritating to read the "not impressed with their play" when nobody should be expecting it to be right now.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
As has been said before, don't expect top tier level play yet. They haven't played long enough not even close. People need to realize this...
I know, which is why I said "Still lots of time to improve though".
yea but if you knew that why say you're unimpressed with their play?
don't think people are watching because they're expecting a gsl finals; they're just really curious.
On May 21 2012 15:22 UTL_Unlimited wrote: Commentators: All right watchers, that's a TECH LAB. If you attach it to a STARPORT then you get a BANSHEE. We know that because a VIKING doesn't need a TECH LAB.
Also in the beginning the commentators were like: guys. 1 1 1 is REALLYYYY good. Like expect it.
Can we have one thread in all the rest of the games? It really seems immature that we have to separate the threads for 2 events. It could be in bw or sc2, as long as we have 1 thread.
For people who are watching the SC1 progamers and are thinking they are mid masters: yes. yes they are. You can see that their mechanics and reaction times are AMAZING but their game sense is almost nonexistent, which is what makes progamers progamers.
On May 21 2012 15:26 Le French wrote: Can we have one thread in all the rest of the games? It really seems immature that we have to separate the threads for 2 events. It could be in bw or sc2, as long as we have 1 thread.
I want SC2 fans, who might be late to the party, to know that this is indeed a SC2 tourney as well. If its sitting in the BW section, they may just see it in the sidebar and be completely unaware and think its the old Proleague. I want them to see BW ^_^
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
As has been said before, don't expect top tier level play yet. They haven't played long enough not even close. People need to realize this...
I know, which is why I said "Still lots of time to improve though".
You said that yes, still irritating to read the "not impressed with their play" when nobody should be expecting it to be right now.
Because I'm not impressed? Being impressed would mean they exceed my expectations or match them, low as they are. If someone showed great play, I'd be impressed, if they showed what everyone expected -> relatively low so far, it's not impressive so much as meh.
Let me adjust that, I'm not impressed with the vast majority, on par with my low expectations or below them for the vast majority. EffOrt has impressed me a bit though.
I'm not criticizing them so much as stating that they have done little to excite me just yet.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
These guys are all high masters+ on Korea.
They are already capable of playing the "mid-class" foreigners and winning.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
On May 21 2012 15:27 UTL_Unlimited wrote: For people who are watching the SC1 progamers and are thinking they are mid masters: yes. yes they are. You can see that their mechanics and reaction times are AMAZING but their game sense is almost nonexistent, which is what makes progamers progamers.
So don't expect SICK games until season 3.
get the fuck out that was an amazing TvT. SC2 TvT is the only MU on par or better with the excitement/action of BW counterparts though. All the other MUs are kinda... eh..
as people mentioned before, SkyHigh is amazing at TvT (perhaps 3rd only to Fantasy/Flash)
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
These guys are all high masters+ on Korea.
They are already capable of playing the "mid-class" foreigners and winning.
Plus, Lizzy (P) of KT played really well yesterday and is rumored to be in GM league in Korea, he certainly played that way too.
I was a bit disaponted yesterday. Except Lizzy, they didn't looked close to code A/ gm korea (especially their decision making looked off). But Sea(T) and Skyhigh(T) played actually a good TvT. Good macro, multitasking, positioning, and decision making.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
As has been said before, don't expect top tier level play yet. They haven't played long enough not even close. People need to realize this...
I know, which is why I said "Still lots of time to improve though".
You said that yes, still irritating to read the "not impressed with their play" when nobody should be expecting it to be right now.
Because I'm not impressed? Being impressed would mean they exceed my expectations or match them, low as they are. If someone showed great play, I'd be impressed, if they showed what everyone expected -> relatively low so far, it's not impressive so much as meh.
Let me adjust that, I'm not impressed with the vast majority, on par with my low expectations or below them for the vast majority. EffOrt has impressed me a bit though.
I'm not criticizing them so much as stating that they have done little to excite me just yet.
Nobody is going to show great play with them playing two games at once -.- and they have to alternate every set between sc2 and sc1
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
These guys are all high masters+ on Korea.
They are already capable of playing the "mid-class" foreigners and winning.
depends on what you define as mid class. Someone along destiny? yeah. someone who can make it into the pool? probably not.
Sea looked pretty good, he just wasn't prepared for that type of counter attack. The players know what they are doing, just don't have a lot of experience reacting to certain things.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
Some of them are high masters and grandmasters which actually makes them better than "mid-tier foreigners."
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
When has Incontrol been mid-tier? I love the guy, but he's not midtier
I'd say Mid-tier might be players like HasuObs, BratOk, etc (chose them off the top of my head)
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
These guys are all high masters+ on Korea.
They are already capable of playing the "mid-class" foreigners and winning.
Plus, Lizzy (P) of KT played really well yesterday and is rumored to be in GM league in Korea, he certainly played that way too.
i've heard fxoboss say that he was switched from kt to nshoseo, and then back to kt again. i'd say he's the best of the bunch atm.
On May 21 2012 15:27 UTL_Unlimited wrote: For people who are watching the SC1 progamers and are thinking they are mid masters: yes. yes they are. You can see that their mechanics and reaction times are AMAZING but their game sense is almost nonexistent, which is what makes progamers progamers.
So don't expect SICK games until season 3.
get the fuck out that was an amazing TvT
?? Skyhigh did amazing with his control and made 2 decisions that changed the game to a favorable situation but I think my point kinda stood... Sea made the bad decision making with sending his 2 medivacs empty while the rest of the units walked. He sent his SCVs in too early before the actual attack units could come through. So...I don't get it.
Exciting match! I swear, I would have failed that bust-out that Skyhigh pulled off. After that, though, I think Sea played slightly poorly. He should have taken the middle, I think, and just held it with his superior tank count. With his earlier 3 orbitals, he could have then kept up with the upgrades and slowly edged out Skyhigh.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
These guys are all high masters+ on Korea.
They are already capable of playing the "mid-class" foreigners and winning.
Plus, Lizzy (P) of KT played really well yesterday and is rumored to be in GM league in Korea, he certainly played that way too.
Lizzy (P) is also rumored to be ex-NSHoseo player too, if I remember it correctly from somewhere I read in TL.
SEA wasn't bad, but he doesn't have much experience with the engagements you can see. Running his marines when he got dropped from this angle was a suicide, but he had enough to defend in theory.
On May 21 2012 15:28 UTL_Unlimited wrote: Skyhigh with the "what? I failed 1-1-1? Zero fucks given". Still steamrolls.
Sea T.T Please get out of your slumpp
It wasn't really a failed 1-1-1. It's a pretty common build to go fast banshee to kill some scv / marine while getting your own expo up. If you noticed he cut marine / hellion to get cc not that much later and moved rax to banshee for stim, pretty sure it was planned to be that way. Skyhigh played pretty well the only real questionable decision making being to base trade with his marines as if sea had been ready with siege tank / repair it wouldn't have done as much damage but it still worked out pretty well because he cut off reinforcements + kill red's nat OC and lifted his production(after combat shield finished) and thus was able to overwhelm the red terrans forces at his main.
He never really missed a beat with his macro, red terrans build was a bit all over the place with really late upgrades for his bio, I think he went 1-1-1 because he saw skyhigh was going banshee as opposed to the more standard 1 rax fe into 3 rax and wasn't used to the transition back into bio.
Basically skyhigh other than one questionable decision played well but since his opponent played badly it is hard to determine how good he really is beyond what I already mentioned of having good macro / decision making(for the most part).
On May 21 2012 15:27 UTL_Unlimited wrote: For people who are watching the SC1 progamers and are thinking they are mid masters: yes. yes they are. You can see that their mechanics and reaction times are AMAZING but their game sense is almost nonexistent, which is what makes progamers progamers.
So don't expect SICK games until season 3.
get the fuck out that was an amazing TvT. SC2 TvT is the only MU on par or better with the excitement/action of BW counterparts though. All the other MUs are kinda... eh..
as people mentioned before, SkyHigh is amazing at TvT (perhaps 3rd only to Fantasy/Flash)
I don't know how to describe it exactly, but the thing that's impressed me most about the BW players is how crisp everything is. The decision making and game knowledge isn't quite there, but there are never situations where drops are sitting behind mineral lines massacring scvs, Protoss kill drops instantly once hts hit the field, there's almost never any supply blocks. These guys just have insane awareness and reaction time - if they can get the decision making process down/some metagame knowledge then they'll be really really good.
It's not amazing my any means, but the raw mechanics are just so smooth!
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
When has Incontrol been mid-tier? I love the guy, but he's not midtier
I'd say Mid-tier might be players like HasuObs, BratOk, etc (chose them off the top of my head)
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
When has Incontrol been mid-tier? I love the guy, but he's not midtier
I'd say Mid-tier might be players like HasuObs, BratOk, etc (chose them off the top of my head)
On May 21 2012 15:27 UTL_Unlimited wrote: For people who are watching the SC1 progamers and are thinking they are mid masters: yes. yes they are. You can see that their mechanics and reaction times are AMAZING but their game sense is almost nonexistent, which is what makes progamers progamers.
So don't expect SICK games until season 3.
get the fuck out that was an amazing TvT. SC2 TvT is the only MU on par or better with the excitement/action of BW counterparts though. All the other MUs are kinda... eh..
as people mentioned before, SkyHigh is amazing at TvT (perhaps 3rd only to Fantasy/Flash)
While I agree SC2 TvT can be pretty cool I have to say ZvT is by far the most exciting matchup.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
When has Incontrol been mid-tier? I love the guy, but he's not midtier
I'd say Mid-tier might be players like HasuObs, BratOk, etc (chose them off the top of my head)
stopped reading here.
Personally, I don't think any of the BW pros could beat Hasu in a Bo3. But that doesn't say shit. They've only been playing for a week after all.
On May 21 2012 15:36 Ksquared wrote: I personally can't wait to see how good these guys are in a couple more months.
This is why I don't like them splitting their attention. Let the BW players hold the fort, and let the SC2 players lab that shit. Switching is going to look bad for both games.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
Some of them are high masters and grandmasters which actually makes them better than "mid-tier foreigners."
ToD, desRow, MajOr, etc are all in Korean GM, and probably lots more. Just from what I know personally, there are quite a few SEA players in high masters KR etc. I don't think it makes them better than "mid-tier foreigners", but combo that with their experience, I suppose so if it was on stage.
On May 21 2012 15:33 Swords wrote: I don't know how to describe it exactly, but the thing that's impressed me most about the BW players is how crisp everything is. The decision making and game knowledge isn't quite there, but there are never situations where drops are sitting behind mineral lines massacring scvs, Protoss kill drops instantly once hts hit the field, there's almost never any supply blocks. These guys just have insane awareness and reaction time - if they can get the decision making process down/some metagame knowledge then they'll be really really good.
It's not amazing my any means, but the raw mechanics are just so smooth!
Ya its the game sense that kind of transfers over I imagine. Basically they know what to do, just not the best way to go about doing it.
On May 21 2012 15:28 UTL_Unlimited wrote: Skyhigh with the "what? I failed 1-1-1? Zero fucks given". Still steamrolls.
Sea T.T Please get out of your slumpp
It wasn't really a failed 1-1-1. It's a pretty common build to go fast banshee to kill some scv / marine while getting your own expo up. If you noticed he cut marine / hellion to get cc not that much later and moved rax to banshee for stim, pretty sure it was planned to be that way. Skyhigh played pretty well the only real questionable decision making being to base trade with his marines as if sea had been ready with siege tank / repair it wouldn't have done as much damage but it still worked out pretty well. He never really missed a beat with his macro, red terrans build was a bit all over the place with really late upgrades for his bio, I think he went 1-1-1 because he saw skyhigh was going banshee as opposed to the more standard 1 rax fe into 3 rax and wasn't used to the transition back into bio.
This isn't my opinion for a response (it was the commentators) Skyhigh apparently got 3 scvs with the banshees and the hellion run in was to weaken the marines so that the banshee could do the actual damage after scaring the marines away. But the way that the hellions ran in and the way that the marines were split made it so that the marines wouldn't get the most optimal splash damage from the hellions so the banshee was repelled. This let Sea get that timing off where he would siege from the lower ground and elevator up.
I feel like instead Skyhigh made a pretty solid decision to counter attack with a group of marines. Of course in the in game situation, I think it took REAL balls to do it especially since his tech structures were so far into the ledge and Sea's tanks and marines were next to eh production building, but we saw that Skyhigh spread the SCVs and moved in with his produced marines and tanks to hold that off while having another small group of marines hit the lower siege tank.
And I'm a little confused since skyhigh went the 1-1-1 (your end sentence).
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
When has Incontrol been mid-tier? I love the guy, but he's not midtier
I'd say Mid-tier might be players like HasuObs, BratOk, etc (chose them off the top of my head)
stopped reading here.
I agree, even though they aren't top, top foreigners doesn't mean they're mid tier.
On May 21 2012 15:28 UTL_Unlimited wrote: Skyhigh with the "what? I failed 1-1-1? Zero fucks given". Still steamrolls.
Sea T.T Please get out of your slumpp
It wasn't really a failed 1-1-1. It's a pretty common build to go fast banshee to kill some scv / marine while getting your own expo up. If you noticed he cut marine / hellion to get cc not that much later and moved rax to banshee for stim, pretty sure it was planned to be that way. Skyhigh played pretty well the only real questionable decision making being to base trade with his marines as if sea had been ready with siege tank / repair it wouldn't have done as much damage but it still worked out pretty well because he cut off reinforcements and lifted his production(after combat shield finished) and thus was able to overwhelm the red terrans forces at his main.
He never really missed a beat with his macro, red terrans build was a bit all over the place with really late upgrades for his bio, I think he went 1-1-1 because he saw skyhigh was going banshee as opposed to the more standard 1 rax fe into 3 rax and wasn't used to the transition back into bio.
Basically skyhigh other than one questionable decision played well but since his opponent played badly it is hard to determine how good he really is beyond what I already mentioned of having good macro / decision making(for the most part).
Precisely what happened, if anyone 1-1-1 ed it was Sea, he also had bad macro, his overall play was quite bad tbh, high master korean terrans would've murdered him 100%.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
When has Incontrol been mid-tier? I love the guy, but he's not midtier
I'd say Mid-tier might be players like HasuObs, BratOk, etc (chose them off the top of my head)
stopped reading here.
I agree, even though they aren't top, top foreigners doesn't mean they're mid tier.
Might have different definitions of mid tier. I personally think Top tier is made of people like Stephano, Naniwa, Thorzain, HuK (on and off, he seems to like going back and forth), Sen and a few others who seem to hit that level and then go back down. For one, Incontrol (sorry Incontrol! You're still awesome!) would not be mid-tier, what's he won or done for that?
On May 21 2012 15:28 UTL_Unlimited wrote: Skyhigh with the "what? I failed 1-1-1? Zero fucks given". Still steamrolls.
Sea T.T Please get out of your slumpp
It wasn't really a failed 1-1-1. It's a pretty common build to go fast banshee to kill some scv / marine while getting your own expo up. If you noticed he cut marine / hellion to get cc not that much later and moved rax to banshee for stim, pretty sure it was planned to be that way. Skyhigh played pretty well the only real questionable decision making being to base trade with his marines as if sea had been ready with siege tank / repair it wouldn't have done as much damage but it still worked out pretty well. He never really missed a beat with his macro, red terrans build was a bit all over the place with really late upgrades for his bio, I think he went 1-1-1 because he saw skyhigh was going banshee as opposed to the more standard 1 rax fe into 3 rax and wasn't used to the transition back into bio.
This isn't my opinion for a response (it was the commentators) Skyhigh apparently got 3 scvs with the banshees and the hellion run in was to weaken the marines so that the banshee could do the actual damage after scaring the marines away. But the way that the hellions ran in and the way that the marines were split made it so that the marines wouldn't get the most optimal splash damage from the hellions so the banshee was repelled. This let Sea get that timing off where he would siege from the lower ground and elevator up.
I feel like instead Skyhigh made a pretty solid decision to counter attack with a group of marines. Of course in the in game situation, I think it took REAL balls to do it especially since his tech structures were so far into the ledge and Sea's tanks and marines were next to eh production building, but we saw that Skyhigh spread the SCVs and moved in with his produced marines and tanks to hold that off while having another small group of marines hit the lower siege tank.
And I'm a little confused since skyhigh went the 1-1-1 (your end sentence).
They both went 1-1-1, red scanned banshee and opted to get a factory and starport (I'm assuming he did this to get vikings to counter the banshee as well as having the opportunity to do the elevator), the other more common option is going 3 rax and combatshield or stim, defending the banshee harass then having map control with your superior bio upgrades. Sky high however transitioned into bio right after 2 banshees, and got his bio upgrades sooner whereas Sea opted for an older strat that doesn't really work for the reasons we saw (marines with stim, combat shield and +1 can roll over siege tanks and unupgraded marines with scv support to tank some of the splash). After that skyhigh had map control with his superior bio upgrades and was in a really good position to win.
Basically both went a form of 1-1-1 but skyhighs transition was earlier and better, whereas sea's was clumsy,slow and not very standard.
Did T8 really practice anything at all -_-? Jaehoon's face was like: "Ooo, what does this button do?"
Also, if anyone know Coach Han's history could give me a rundown it would be appreciated. I swear he didn't do anything significant in Oz and now in T8.
Is it wrong that I watch these games only in the hopes that the sc2 series get good in quality randomly. Currently, its not amazing and I can see why the BW faithful don't enjoy sc2 much atm.
On May 21 2012 15:44 ZeromuS wrote: Is it wrong that I watch these games only in the hopes that the sc2 series get good in quality randomly. Currently, its not amazing and I can see why the BW faithful don't enjoy sc2 much atm.
Well, the bw games are not especially awesome either. This dual format put too much stress on the players imo
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
Where do people get these absolutely baseless (and quite frankly stupid) assumptions?
Have the BW pros ever played ANY sc2 pro in a tournament or any type of event? Didn't think so. The only possible results out there are ladder matches and they are no true reflection of skill/tournament potential.
On May 21 2012 15:43 Haydin wrote: 4 gate vs 4 gate incoming, doubt we'll see a very good pvp here
people never 4gate in pvp nowadays. you mean 1 base play.
Oh I know. But I don't think the BW guys have had enough practice very much, so I'm just guessing we'll just see them 4 gate given how simple it is compared to other strats.
On May 21 2012 15:44 ZeromuS wrote: Is it wrong that I watch these games only in the hopes that the sc2 series get good in quality randomly. Currently, its not amazing and I can see why the BW faithful don't enjoy sc2 much atm.
If you wanna watch real high level SC2 matches, then watch GSL, the play is obviously more developed there. It's understandable that the BW pros are still stumbling in terms of SC2 skill because they've only started practicing for it recently, and to add to that, they have to practice BW and SC2 side by side. Give them time, and they'll get the hang of it. They may be BW pros but they're still human.
funny engagement. hoon didn't have high ground vision so he stopped doing offensive warp-ins, and horangi offensive blinked on top of the units, kind of taking away his blink advantage.
On May 21 2012 15:54 NippIeLuv wrote: Is the whole place really empty? I mean like I only caught the first two rows, and then there's like a couple chairs filled up, and that's it...
I'm not sure but since it's a work/school day most people are probably at work or school?
On May 21 2012 15:54 NippIeLuv wrote: Is the whole place really empty? I mean like I only caught the first two rows, and then there's like a couple chairs filled up, and that's it...
There is people there.
It's the afternoon on Monday for Korea. Kids at school. Adults at work. Proleague will probably switch to the later time slot next week.
On May 21 2012 15:52 Oboeman wrote: funny engagement. hoon didn't have high ground vision so he stopped doing offensive warp-ins, and horangi offensive blinked on top of the units, kind of taking away his blink advantage.
and that is a lot of sentries for a PvP.
Yet Jaehoon hit 3 different stalkers instead of focusing, he also warped way more sentries than he needed and was forcefielding ahead of when he needed to.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
if you're keyboard doesn't work you literally throw your hands in the air and the ref pauses for you. I think it happened with light before (and some other players).
On May 21 2012 15:54 NippIeLuv wrote: Is the whole place really empty? I mean like I only caught the first two rows, and then there's like a couple chairs filled up, and that's it...
There is people there.
It's the afternoon on Monday for Korea. Kids at school. Adults at work. Proleague will probably switch to the later time slot next week.
Right, lol, thanks for clearing that up. Totally forgot that's Korea, my bad.
On May 21 2012 15:57 N.geNuity wrote: if you're keyboard doesn't work you literally throw your hands in the air and the ref pauses for you. I think it happened with light before (and some other players).
Yup, ref will pause for you if he sees that your keyboard is not responsive.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
I hope this eventually becomes Major League Baseball type system with two leagues that ends with a playoff between the top teams from each league (KeSPA and GSL). Based on what I've heard about KeSPA I'm sure that won't happen, but it'd be cool to see once these BW players get better. And it'd promote competition between leagues.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
Desrow beat Flash pretty easily. Even though Incontrol isn't that good, I'd still wager he's slightly better than Desrow.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
Desrow beat Flash pretty easily. Even though Incontrol isn't that good, I'd still wager he's slightly better than Desrow.
Hard to say honestly. Where does Desrow rank on KR ladder nowadays? I believe Incontrol was about mid-master, but that was from NA with latency.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
Desrow beat Flash pretty easily. Even though Incontrol isn't that good, I'd still wager he's slightly better than Desrow.
InControl is probably one of the worst players that is still considered a pro-player. I'd say he is the underdog vs most random high EU masters.
And this is coming from someone who kinda likes Incontrol. But his play has been terrible for a long time now :D
fully expecting this to take as long as yesterday, I ignored the first several hours of proleague and watched Game of Drones. True to prediciton, SC2 is only just beginning.
On May 21 2012 16:01 Natespank wrote: fully expecting this to take as long as yesterday, I ignored the first several hours of proleague and watched Game of Drones. True to prediciton, SC2 is only just beginning.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
Desrow beat Flash pretty easily. Even though Incontrol isn't that good, I'd still wager he's slightly better than Desrow.
That doesn't mean shit. Flash is ranked higher than DesRow but a decent amount on the KR Ladder, one loss doesn't mean anything about who is better (but who knows, maybe he is better?). I'm 2-0 against MVPTails, does that mean I'm one of the best NA players? No, it means I'm lucky as shit (because I srsly was the last time we played).
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
Desrow beat Flash pretty easily. Even though Incontrol isn't that good, I'd still wager he's slightly better than Desrow.
InControl is probably one of the worst players that is still considered a pro-player. I'd say he is the underdog vs most random high EU masters.
And this is coming from someone who kinda likes Incontrol. But his play has been terrible for a long time now :D
How on earth are you able to spew out so much nonsense? You must be living in 2011, because in 2012 iNcontrol's play has improved by two suns and a moon, it's two entirely different players..
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
To me this is what makes this so entertaining. What stuck out to me yesterday was JD roaving the map with 3-4 groups of 10 roaches, microing each group perfectly. Then, when the toss moved out he didn't engage at all, fled up his ramp into his main, and send one of the groups to his opponents base to snipe pylons and almost nothing else. He was so mechanically on top of everything and then made every single wrong decision possible. They just don't understand simple metagame/basic game knowledge, but have ridiculous APM/reaction times/minimap awareness, which leads to some really bizarre and comical situations. As they get better the games will start being sick instead of just funny.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
Desrow beat Flash pretty easily. Even though Incontrol isn't that good, I'd still wager he's slightly better than Desrow.
That doesn't mean shit. Flash is ranked higher than DesRow but a decent amount on the KR Ladder, one loss doesn't mean anything about who is better (but who knows, maybe he is better?). I'm 2-0 against MVPTails, does that mean I'm one of the best NA players? No, it means I'm lucky as shit (because I srsly was the last time we played).
Ladder rank means about as much as a random win...
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
Or to put it in more simpler terms, Flash needs to stop turtling. Terran isn't the turtle race in SC2, Protoss is. If he wants to turtle he should switch to Protoss.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
Desrow beat Flash pretty easily. Even though Incontrol isn't that good, I'd still wager he's slightly better than Desrow.
InControl is probably one of the worst players that is still considered a pro-player. I'd say he is the underdog vs most random high EU masters.
And this is coming from someone who kinda likes Incontrol. But his play has been terrible for a long time now :D
a lot of people understimate incontrol. I've watched his stream and he's not bad actually. He's beaten multiple GMs and high masters just in the few hours i've watched. And i'm not talking about the noname guys that get up talk by half luck half timing, but legitimate top3 masters and GMs.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
His problem is that he hasn't been playing the game long enough.
He probably understands all of this concepts significantly better than you do, the difference is actually implementing them properly when for years he's been playing with bw concepts of armies and economic relationships.
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
Desrow beat Flash pretty easily. Even though Incontrol isn't that good, I'd still wager he's slightly better than Desrow.
InControl is probably one of the worst players that is still considered a pro-player. I'd say he is the underdog vs most random high EU masters.
And this is coming from someone who kinda likes Incontrol. But his play has been terrible for a long time now :D
How on earth are you able to spew out so much nonsense? You must be living in 2011, because in 2012 iNcontrol's play has improved by two suns and a moon, it's two entirely different players..
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
I have nfi how you can work all this out from 1 game, a game in which if he'd held the initial bust he would've been miles ahead
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
On May 21 2012 15:21 Falconblade wrote: Not too impressed with the level of SC2 play I've seen so far. It just seems like Korean Masters level, except for Effort who looked pretty good vs. Flash. He might be a touch under what I may see from a mid-class foreigner. The others look a fair bit below mid-tier foreigner. Still lots of time to improve though.
lmao if you think people like incontrol can match these players you needa give me some of what you're smoking
lol yeah. ive only seen a few games by these broodwars players, but nowehere is incontrol even in their level based on what im seeing
Desrow beat Flash pretty easily. Even though Incontrol isn't that good, I'd still wager he's slightly better than Desrow.
InControl is probably one of the worst players that is still considered a pro-player. I'd say he is the underdog vs most random high EU masters.
And this is coming from someone who kinda likes Incontrol. But his play has been terrible for a long time now :D
How on earth are you able to spew out so much nonsense? You must be living in 2011, because in 2012 iNcontrol's play has improved by two suns and a moon, it's two entirely different players..
I think its just popular to bash Incontrol. I see it a lot and of course Incontrol isn't amazing, hes not a bad player.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
To me this is what makes this so entertaining. What stuck out to me yesterday was JD roaving the map with 3-4 groups of 10 roaches, microing each group perfectly. Then, when the toss moved out he didn't engage at all, fled up his ramp into his main, and send one of the groups to his opponents base to snipe pylons and almost nothing else. He was so mechanically on top of everything and then made every single wrong decision possible. They just don't understand simple metagame/basic game knowledge, but have ridiculous APM/reaction times/minimap awareness, which leads to some really bizarre and comical situations. As they get better the games will start being sick instead of just funny.
I can't wait for them to incorporate backstabs in SC2. Pretty rare in today's ball vs ball world.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
If flash switched to SC2 toss with that mentality he would be insanely good. Once he understood how to forcefield well it'd be so hard to break him.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
To me this is what makes this so entertaining. What stuck out to me yesterday was JD roaving the map with 3-4 groups of 10 roaches, microing each group perfectly. Then, when the toss moved out he didn't engage at all, fled up his ramp into his main, and send one of the groups to his opponents base to snipe pylons and almost nothing else. He was so mechanically on top of everything and then made every single wrong decision possible. They just don't understand simple metagame/basic game knowledge, but have ridiculous APM/reaction times/minimap awareness, which leads to some really bizarre and comical situations. As they get better the games will start being sick instead of just funny.
Some of those mindsets, though, are just so WRONG... There's no excuse for simply letting your units die like that. Did he not know what Thors were? Did he have his health bars set to selected? Did he simply decide "fuck this, I'm better with 11 Mutas like in the glory days"?
Maybe I'm wrong, but some of this stuff is just insane.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
Or to put it in more simpler terms, Flash needs to stop turtling. Terran isn't the turtle race in SC2, Protoss is. If he wants to turtle he should switch to Protoss.
Blame queen buff, expect a lot of tvz to be mostly greedy play(fast 3 cc) and defending zerg pressure until at least 2-2 is done, moving out before then is a gamble.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
To me this is what makes this so entertaining. What stuck out to me yesterday was JD roaving the map with 3-4 groups of 10 roaches, microing each group perfectly. Then, when the toss moved out he didn't engage at all, fled up his ramp into his main, and send one of the groups to his opponents base to snipe pylons and almost nothing else. He was so mechanically on top of everything and then made every single wrong decision possible. They just don't understand simple metagame/basic game knowledge, but have ridiculous APM/reaction times/minimap awareness, which leads to some really bizarre and comical situations. As they get better the games will start being sick instead of just funny.
I can't wait for them to incorporate backstabs in SC2. Pretty rare in today's ball vs ball world.
Soulkey also looked great against Trap.
until it was time to fight that army, and he just booked it and base traded instead of trying to figure out how to fight it. He had the perfect counterattack so he could sack his 4th, build spines at his 3rd, and hold it with a flank and a lot of fungals. Instead he just built 20 spines in his main and immediately went for the base trade.
On May 21 2012 16:08 roymarthyup wrote: wait a second so a player decided to choose to play protoss since he thought protoss was imba now they're decided whether to let him offrace?
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
It's true really. You can get Diamond and Master players with better 4! gate all-in than that and it doesn't take that much effort to learn; though I suppose trying to balance playing the 2 games are really hard. Difference is everyone in T8 looks terrible in both BW and SC2. Really makes you wonder if they are even trying anymore or just letting the frustration get to them.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
To me this is what makes this so entertaining. What stuck out to me yesterday was JD roaving the map with 3-4 groups of 10 roaches, microing each group perfectly. Then, when the toss moved out he didn't engage at all, fled up his ramp into his main, and send one of the groups to his opponents base to snipe pylons and almost nothing else. He was so mechanically on top of everything and then made every single wrong decision possible. They just don't understand simple metagame/basic game knowledge, but have ridiculous APM/reaction times/minimap awareness, which leads to some really bizarre and comical situations. As they get better the games will start being sick instead of just funny.
Some of those mindsets, though, are just so WRONG... There's no excuse for simply letting your units die like that. Did he not know what Thors were? Did he have his health bars set to selected? Did he simply decide "fuck this, I'm better with 11 Mutas like in the glory days"?
Maybe I'm wrong, but some of this stuff is just insane.
I mean, he's playing two games at once. One game you're supposed to keep your mutas in the tightest ball possible against terran and the other game you're supposed to keep them as spread out as possible. I imagine you might just not be able to switch mentalities immediately. Especially if you're Effort and have been stacking your mutas for years now.
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
His build was bad. He is better than me but his build was bad and poorly executed. It was timed oddly and he didn't have any tech behind his attack and his timing for the attack was late.
If he had hit earlier at a better timing against Horangii who had no sentry, and only 3 stalkers and blink half done and only 2 gates of production he would have won easily.
So, yes. Watching these games are frustrating, the decisions and timings on the builds are not anywhere near as good as we the SC2 community want to see and are expecting from these BW pros especially when there is a ton of "end of current sc2 era" hype being thrown around.
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
It's true really. You can get Diamond and Master players with better 4! gate all-in than that and it doesn't take that much effort to learn; though I suppose trying to balance playing the 2 games are really hard. Difference is everyone in T8 looks terrible in both BW and SC2. Really makes you wonder if they are even trying anymore or just letting the frustration get to them.
On May 21 2012 16:08 roymarthyup wrote: wait a second so a player decided to choose to play protoss since he thought protoss was imba now they're decided whether to let him offrace?
no that was a joke lol
they are still fixing the problem
Oh man. I seriously LOL'd. If that was a troll, well played sir.
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
His build was bad. He is better than me but his build was bad and poorly executed. It was timed oddly and he didn't have any tech behind his attack and his timing for the attack was late.
If he had hit earlier at a better timing against Horangii who had no sentry, and only 3 stalkers and blink half done and only 2 gates of production he would have won easily.
So, yes. Watching these games are frustrating, the decisions and timings on the builds are not anywhere near as good as we the SC2 community want to see and are expecting from these BW pros especially when there is a ton of "end of current sc2 era" hype being thrown around.
3 gate pressure is meant to hit a little after 5 minutes. To get it at 7 minutes is just...
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
To me this is what makes this so entertaining. What stuck out to me yesterday was JD roaving the map with 3-4 groups of 10 roaches, microing each group perfectly. Then, when the toss moved out he didn't engage at all, fled up his ramp into his main, and send one of the groups to his opponents base to snipe pylons and almost nothing else. He was so mechanically on top of everything and then made every single wrong decision possible. They just don't understand simple metagame/basic game knowledge, but have ridiculous APM/reaction times/minimap awareness, which leads to some really bizarre and comical situations. As they get better the games will start being sick instead of just funny.
Some of those mindsets, though, are just so WRONG... There's no excuse for simply letting your units die like that. Did he not know what Thors were? Did he have his health bars set to selected? Did he simply decide "fuck this, I'm better with 11 Mutas like in the glory days"?
Maybe I'm wrong, but some of this stuff is just insane.
I mean, he's playing two games at once. One game you're supposed to keep your mutas in the tightest ball possible against terran and the other game you're supposed to keep them as spread out as possible. I imagine you might just not be able to switch mentalities immediately. Especially if you're Effort and have been stacking your mutas for years now.
Even when those Mutas are stacked, you don't run them into the middle of a pack of Marine+Medic.
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
His build was bad. He is better than me but his build was bad and poorly executed. It was timed oddly and he didn't have any tech behind his attack and his timing for the attack was late.
If he had hit earlier at a better timing against Horangii who had no sentry, and only 3 stalkers and blink half done and only 2 gates of production he would have won easily.
So, yes. Watching these games are frustrating, the decisions and timings on the builds are not anywhere near as good as we the SC2 community want to see and are expecting from these BW pros especially when there is a ton of "end of current sc2 era" hype being thrown around.
3 gate pressure is meant to hit a little after 5 minutes. To get it at 7 minutes is just...
As Ryo said they are trying their best but the problem is that behind all the hype I was really expecting a lot more. It wouldnt take more than 2 hours for someone as good as these players to learn to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure with follow up so that is my issue.
The need to focus on two games is just causing poor games for both BW and SC2 so far.
I see. Team8 wants a regame because they know their dude was behind, they are saying that he can't win because his keyboard wasn't functioning for too long. On the other hand, its not fair to deprive Horang2 of a game he probably won, fairly, and make him regame.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
To me this is what makes this so entertaining. What stuck out to me yesterday was JD roaving the map with 3-4 groups of 10 roaches, microing each group perfectly. Then, when the toss moved out he didn't engage at all, fled up his ramp into his main, and send one of the groups to his opponents base to snipe pylons and almost nothing else. He was so mechanically on top of everything and then made every single wrong decision possible. They just don't understand simple metagame/basic game knowledge, but have ridiculous APM/reaction times/minimap awareness, which leads to some really bizarre and comical situations. As they get better the games will start being sick instead of just funny.
Some of those mindsets, though, are just so WRONG... There's no excuse for simply letting your units die like that. Did he not know what Thors were? Did he have his health bars set to selected? Did he simply decide "fuck this, I'm better with 11 Mutas like in the glory days"?
Maybe I'm wrong, but some of this stuff is just insane.
I mean, he's playing two games at once. One game you're supposed to keep your mutas in the tightest ball possible against terran and the other game you're supposed to keep them as spread out as possible. I imagine you might just not be able to switch mentalities immediately. Especially if you're Effort and have been stacking your mutas for years now.
Even when those Mutas are stacked, you don't run them into the middle of a pack of Marine+Medic.
Well did he run into marines or one thor? If it was one Thor and he hasn't played a ton and thinks he can snipe the Thor like you can snipe turrets with mutas in BW then I can see something like that happening.
I agree that a lot of it seems insane, but I don't think that's to be unexpected - they are training two completely different games at once, one of which they've barely trained for. What really got me yesterday was the nexus drive-by with an entire mmm ball that ended up killing nothing and losing the entire army.
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
His build was bad. He is better than me but his build was bad and poorly executed. It was timed oddly and he didn't have any tech behind his attack and his timing for the attack was late.
If he had hit earlier at a better timing against Horangii who had no sentry, and only 3 stalkers and blink half done and only 2 gates of production he would have won easily.
So, yes. Watching these games are frustrating, the decisions and timings on the builds are not anywhere near as good as we the SC2 community want to see and are expecting from these BW pros especially when there is a ton of "end of current sc2 era" hype being thrown around.
3 gate pressure is meant to hit a little after 5 minutes. To get it at 7 minutes is just...
As Ryo said they are trying their best but the problem is that behind all the hype I was really expecting a lot more. It wouldnt take more than 2 hours for someone as good as these players to learn to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure with follow up so that is my issue.
The need to focus on two games is just causing poor games for both BW and SC2 so far.
Not quite true. Other teams are doing decent if not well. T8 just looks bad. Wouldn't surprise me if they lose every single match this season.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
To me this is what makes this so entertaining. What stuck out to me yesterday was JD roaving the map with 3-4 groups of 10 roaches, microing each group perfectly. Then, when the toss moved out he didn't engage at all, fled up his ramp into his main, and send one of the groups to his opponents base to snipe pylons and almost nothing else. He was so mechanically on top of everything and then made every single wrong decision possible. They just don't understand simple metagame/basic game knowledge, but have ridiculous APM/reaction times/minimap awareness, which leads to some really bizarre and comical situations. As they get better the games will start being sick instead of just funny.
Some of those mindsets, though, are just so WRONG... There's no excuse for simply letting your units die like that. Did he not know what Thors were? Did he have his health bars set to selected? Did he simply decide "fuck this, I'm better with 11 Mutas like in the glory days"?
Maybe I'm wrong, but some of this stuff is just insane.
Because every single pro player hasn't made the same or similar mistakes Effort made, right?
Like zergs throwing banelings on archons, they NEVER do that or engaging mutalisks over similar numbers of marines. Not once have I ever seen Idra do something like that. and that Nestea vs. Huk game totally never happened at all
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
His build was bad. He is better than me but his build was bad and poorly executed. It was timed oddly and he didn't have any tech behind his attack and his timing for the attack was late.
If he had hit earlier at a better timing against Horangii who had no sentry, and only 3 stalkers and blink half done and only 2 gates of production he would have won easily.
So, yes. Watching these games are frustrating, the decisions and timings on the builds are not anywhere near as good as we the SC2 community want to see and are expecting from these BW pros especially when there is a ton of "end of current sc2 era" hype being thrown around.
3 gate pressure is meant to hit a little after 5 minutes. To get it at 7 minutes is just...
As Ryo said they are trying their best but the problem is that behind all the hype I was really expecting a lot more. It wouldnt take more than 2 hours for someone as good as these players to learn to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure with follow up so that is my issue.
The need to focus on two games is just causing poor games for both BW and SC2 so far.
Maybe the keyboard fucked him up
But yeah, seeing both BW and SC2 played at a lower level because of this system is a bummer.
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
His build was bad. He is better than me but his build was bad and poorly executed. It was timed oddly and he didn't have any tech behind his attack and his timing for the attack was late.
If he had hit earlier at a better timing against Horangii who had no sentry, and only 3 stalkers and blink half done and only 2 gates of production he would have won easily.
So, yes. Watching these games are frustrating, the decisions and timings on the builds are not anywhere near as good as we the SC2 community want to see and are expecting from these BW pros especially when there is a ton of "end of current sc2 era" hype being thrown around.
3 gate pressure is meant to hit a little after 5 minutes. To get it at 7 minutes is just...
As Ryo said they are trying their best but the problem is that behind all the hype I was really expecting a lot more. It wouldnt take more than 2 hours for someone as good as these players to learn to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure with follow up so that is my issue.
The need to focus on two games is just causing poor games for both BW and SC2 so far.
I agree with this. Every player should just be learning one of the strong all-ins for their race, because nobody's gonna be good enough to counter it yet. 2base all-ins for Protoss, 1-1-1 and Marauder/Hellion for Terran, Roach max and 6pool for Zerg. The fact that they haven't is disturbing. I can get a new all-in mostly down in one or two games, as a Protoss player. For them to struggle so much with it is depressing.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
His problem is that he hasn't been playing the game long enough.
He probably understands all of this concepts significantly better than you do, the difference is actually implementing them properly when for years he's been playing with bw concepts of armies and economic relationships.
i wouldn't doubt that he would understand the concepts with a far more in depth view than me but that doesn't change the level of difficulty there is in changing a mindset as for him playing the game long enough, this is more along the lines of general decision making and build refinement the ability to apply broad concepts is something that only requires the theory to begin with from there you can build up rather quickly
particularly the concept of dropping and pressuring rather than just sitting there turtling and macroing that literally can be done in a game with the right mindset (longer to truly refine it but the initial effects of changing that view are huge)
this is similar to jaedong fleeing up his ramp yesterday and having his whole roach army trapped in his main it's just a broad thing that they just haven't adjusted to yet (i highly doubt that jaedong hadn't experienced a chain ff'd ramp before)
On May 21 2012 16:14 Samp wrote: what does it mean when the commentators say : "deh", is it like "yes"? they say "neh" too ;O
just agreement mate
It's like you were talking with someone and showing agreement while the other guy was talking, "yes!" "absolutley" "hell yes" "of course" "right on you sexy man" and so on
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
I will never forgive Effort for sacrificing over half his Mutalisks to a single Thor.
To me this is what makes this so entertaining. What stuck out to me yesterday was JD roaving the map with 3-4 groups of 10 roaches, microing each group perfectly. Then, when the toss moved out he didn't engage at all, fled up his ramp into his main, and send one of the groups to his opponents base to snipe pylons and almost nothing else. He was so mechanically on top of everything and then made every single wrong decision possible. They just don't understand simple metagame/basic game knowledge, but have ridiculous APM/reaction times/minimap awareness, which leads to some really bizarre and comical situations. As they get better the games will start being sick instead of just funny.
Some of those mindsets, though, are just so WRONG... There's no excuse for simply letting your units die like that. Did he not know what Thors were? Did he have his health bars set to selected? Did he simply decide "fuck this, I'm better with 11 Mutas like in the glory days"?
Maybe I'm wrong, but some of this stuff is just insane.
I mean, he's playing two games at once. One game you're supposed to keep your mutas in the tightest ball possible against terran and the other game you're supposed to keep them as spread out as possible. I imagine you might just not be able to switch mentalities immediately. Especially if you're Effort and have been stacking your mutas for years now.
Even when those Mutas are stacked, you don't run them into the middle of a pack of Marine+Medic.
Well did he run into marines or one thor? If it was one Thor and he hasn't played a ton and thinks he can snipe the Thor like you can snipe turrets with mutas in BW then I can see something like that happening.
I agree that a lot of it seems insane, but I don't think that's to be unexpected - they are training two completely different games at once, one of which they've barely trained for. What really got me yesterday was the nexus drive-by with an entire mmm ball that ended up killing nothing and losing the entire army.
Just not knowing something so basic is saddening. It's like not dodging a Storm.
I think all the Protoss winning stuff is the fact that it is easier to take advantage of timings as a protoss, and they are all still pretty new to the game, hopefully they don't all switch to toss and it will just be 100 PvP's
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
His build was bad. He is better than me but his build was bad and poorly executed. It was timed oddly and he didn't have any tech behind his attack and his timing for the attack was late.
If he had hit earlier at a better timing against Horangii who had no sentry, and only 3 stalkers and blink half done and only 2 gates of production he would have won easily.
So, yes. Watching these games are frustrating, the decisions and timings on the builds are not anywhere near as good as we the SC2 community want to see and are expecting from these BW pros especially when there is a ton of "end of current sc2 era" hype being thrown around.
3 gate pressure is meant to hit a little after 5 minutes. To get it at 7 minutes is just...
As Ryo said they are trying their best but the problem is that behind all the hype I was really expecting a lot more. It wouldnt take more than 2 hours for someone as good as these players to learn to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure with follow up so that is my issue.
The need to focus on two games is just causing poor games for both BW and SC2 so far.
Not quite true. Other teams are doing decent if not well. T8 just looks bad. Wouldn't surprise me if they lose every single match this season.
Poor Jaedong
Team 8 just don't have enough practice partners and coaches. Other teams have 1 coach for each race. And until recently, their living conditions weren't great as well, not to mention the uncertainty and stress from having no sponsor. This season, some of their players also received a salary cutback. It's really hard to do perform under these conditions.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
His problem is that he hasn't been playing the game long enough.
He probably understands all of this concepts significantly better than you do, the difference is actually implementing them properly when for years he's been playing with bw concepts of armies and economic relationships.
Agreed. I am fairly sure that all BW players playing terran in SC2 know that terrans need to constantly pressure in all matchups. I don't know anyone who will win a TvZ with turtling and the same goes for TvP. Its constant harrassing and dropping and attacking on multiple points, sniping key tech buildings etc. The insane amounts of high DPS harassing options give terran this ability that protoss simply lacks. In fact so far protoss and zerg were having a hard time dealing with all these variations that terran could throw at them till Blizzard buffed them to a point where zerg is competitive and protoss may be borderline OP. But knowing this information is different from implementing. I am sure Flash knew he had to pressure Effort at some point, but at what ? If he leaves base too early or too late his army gets decimated. If he attacks at wrong points it will give his opponent more time. All these things only come with practice which these players have had very little off. I think a month or two into this we will start seeing more refined plays. Till then I am afraid we will probably see toss winning till some terran figures out how make two raxes before an expansion or discovers the banshee :D. All it all fairly amusing to see .
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
His build was bad. He is better than me but his build was bad and poorly executed. It was timed oddly and he didn't have any tech behind his attack and his timing for the attack was late.
If he had hit earlier at a better timing against Horangii who had no sentry, and only 3 stalkers and blink half done and only 2 gates of production he would have won easily.
So, yes. Watching these games are frustrating, the decisions and timings on the builds are not anywhere near as good as we the SC2 community want to see and are expecting from these BW pros especially when there is a ton of "end of current sc2 era" hype being thrown around.
3 gate pressure is meant to hit a little after 5 minutes. To get it at 7 minutes is just...
As Ryo said they are trying their best but the problem is that behind all the hype I was really expecting a lot more. It wouldnt take more than 2 hours for someone as good as these players to learn to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure with follow up so that is my issue.
The need to focus on two games is just causing poor games for both BW and SC2 so far.
Maybe the keyboard fucked him up
But yeah, seeing both BW and SC2 played at a lower level because of this system is a bummer.
bummer ?
it fuckin sucks is the more proper way to put it...
Jaehoon played so bad there. You want to expand slower as a colossi player vs a chargelot/archon, not double expand. You also always want to sim city your choke in colossi vs chargelot/archon.
On May 21 2012 15:58 ZeromuS wrote: Watching Jaehoon was frustrating.
7 minute 3 gate pressure with a far away proxy pylon and his WG tech finishing 20 seconds before the extra gates. I honestly wonder how much sc2 he has played because the timings were horrible there. I can hit more crisp timings with my 3 gate build
Really now?
His build was bad. He is better than me but his build was bad and poorly executed. It was timed oddly and he didn't have any tech behind his attack and his timing for the attack was late.
If he had hit earlier at a better timing against Horangii who had no sentry, and only 3 stalkers and blink half done and only 2 gates of production he would have won easily.
So, yes. Watching these games are frustrating, the decisions and timings on the builds are not anywhere near as good as we the SC2 community want to see and are expecting from these BW pros especially when there is a ton of "end of current sc2 era" hype being thrown around.
3 gate pressure is meant to hit a little after 5 minutes. To get it at 7 minutes is just...
As Ryo said they are trying their best but the problem is that behind all the hype I was really expecting a lot more. It wouldnt take more than 2 hours for someone as good as these players to learn to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure with follow up so that is my issue.
The need to focus on two games is just causing poor games for both BW and SC2 so far.
Maybe the keyboard fucked him up
But yeah, seeing both BW and SC2 played at a lower level because of this system is a bummer.
bummer ?
it fuckin sucks is the more proper way to put it...
However you like, atrocious, god awful, any of those work too.
Well, that was anti-climactic after that long pause.
On May 21 2012 16:21 NrGmonk wrote: Jaehoon played so bad there. You want to expand slower as a colossi player vs a chargelot/archon, not double expand. You also always want to sim city your choke in colossi vs chargelot/archon.
A lot of the decisions these guys are making are really bad actually
On May 21 2012 16:23 Dodgin wrote: Don't forget GSL S3 Up/Down Group A is tonight, It's not on the TL calendar for some reason but it starts in about 1 hour 45 mins.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
His problem is that he hasn't been playing the game long enough.
He probably understands all of this concepts significantly better than you do, the difference is actually implementing them properly when for years he's been playing with bw concepts of armies and economic relationships.
Agreed. I am fairly sure that all BW players playing terran in SC2 know that terrans need to constantly pressure in all matchups. I don't know anyone who will win a TvZ with turtling and the same goes for TvP. Its constant harrassing and dropping and attacking on multiple points, sniping key tech buildings etc. The insane amounts of high DPS harassing options give terran this ability that protoss simply lacks. In fact so far protoss and zerg were having a hard time dealing with all these variations that terran could throw at them till Blizzard buffed them to a point where zerg is competitive and protoss may be borderline OP. But knowing this information is different from implementing. I am sure Flash knew he had to pressure Effort at some point, but at what ? If he leaves base too early or too late his army gets decimated. If he attacks at wrong points it will give his opponent more time. All these things only come with practice which these players have had very little off. I think a month or two into this we will start seeing more refined plays. Till then I am afraid we will probably see toss winning till some terran figures out how make two raxes before an expansion or discovers the banshee :D. All it all fairly amusing to see .
the thing with timings like that though is that it's so easy to make up a random timing and figure out how it works out just by picking timings at random (at first at least) or based off of a few reads (such as lair/hive/3rd/4th timings) and drops tend to be good at any timing so long as there aren't huge packs of mutas around to snipe the instantly drops force plenty of units without risking huge main gamechanging armies too
On May 21 2012 16:23 Dodgin wrote: Don't forget GSL S3 Up/Down Group A is tonight, It's not on the TL calendar for some reason but it starts in about 1 hour 45 mins.
Jesus. I have not slept in three days. I hate you Korea.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
His problem is that he hasn't been playing the game long enough.
He probably understands all of this concepts significantly better than you do, the difference is actually implementing them properly when for years he's been playing with bw concepts of armies and economic relationships.
Agreed. I am fairly sure that all BW players playing terran in SC2 know that terrans need to constantly pressure in all matchups. I don't know anyone who will win a TvZ with turtling and the same goes for TvP. Its constant harrassing and dropping and attacking on multiple points, sniping key tech buildings etc. The insane amounts of high DPS harassing options give terran this ability that protoss simply lacks. In fact so far protoss and zerg were having a hard time dealing with all these variations that terran could throw at them till Blizzard buffed them to a point where zerg is competitive and protoss may be borderline OP. But knowing this information is different from implementing. I am sure Flash knew he had to pressure Effort at some point, but at what ? If he leaves base too early or too late his army gets decimated. If he attacks at wrong points it will give his opponent more time. All these things only come with practice which these players have had very little off. I think a month or two into this we will start seeing more refined plays. Till then I am afraid we will probably see toss winning till some terran figures out how make two raxes before an expansion or discovers the banshee :D. All it all fairly amusing to see .
the thing with timings like that though is that it's so easy to make up a random timing and figure out how it works out just by picking timings at random (at first at least) or based off of a few reads (such as lair/hive/3rd/4th timings) and drops tend to be good at any timing so long as there aren't huge packs of mutas around to snipe the instantly drops force plenty of units without risking huge main gamechanging armies too
Maybe he's like Thorzain and he gets really scared whenever he moves out and refuses to drop because it's scary (see RedBull LAN). Flash just hasn't learned the way of the spoon yet.
On May 21 2012 16:20 xxpack09 wrote: such a long pause for such a quick steamrolling ;;
The game was over at the 8 minute mark The moment jaehoon failed the attack with poor tech and then the expo was the nail in the coffin.
The worse game ever must had been the first PvP in yesterdays Proleague when one player went 2 DT rush only to morph the into a archon and then getting killed by a stalker rush. Those 500 gas spent into 5 immortals instead would prolly had won him the game lol.
On May 21 2012 16:21 Oboeman wrote: I guess that's why team 8 really really really really wanted a regame and fought the decision for 20 minutes.
I really do wonder if the equipment problem was at all responsible for Jaehoon's timing being so off.
I doubt it. He missed 1 chronoboost and that tells a lot regarding his mechanics in SC2. Nobody in the GSL would ever make that mistake unless they are playing in full tilt.
Cant wait to see Bisu play sc2. I like how BW toss prefer warp prism rather than planting pylons everywhere. Always wondered why sc2 pros waste minerals on pylons that wont be used/killed when warp prism can warp it anywhere you want.
It really is hell for T8. Even Ace looked pretty decent in SC2 while all of T8's games have been awful. Their saving grace might be that JD's pure talent can will him to victory and Baby is supposedly good, but already -7 after two games is terrible.
Sea and Jaehoon look like lost causes at the moment. Movie and by.hero will need to contribute big time.
On May 21 2012 16:29 power-overwhelming wrote: Cant wait to see Bisu play sc2. I like how BW toss prefer warp prism rather than planting pylons everywhere. Always wondered why sc2 pros waste minerals on pylons that wont be used/killed when warp prism can warp it anywhere you want.
A pylon is also for scouting purposes, and a pylon only costs 100minerals en gives you additional supply which a warp prism doesn't. There are multiple reasons why mass pylons is better than mass warp prisms
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
His problem is that he hasn't been playing the game long enough.
He probably understands all of this concepts significantly better than you do, the difference is actually implementing them properly when for years he's been playing with bw concepts of armies and economic relationships.
Agreed. I am fairly sure that all BW players playing terran in SC2 know that terrans need to constantly pressure in all matchups. I don't know anyone who will win a TvZ with turtling and the same goes for TvP. Its constant harrassing and dropping and attacking on multiple points, sniping key tech buildings etc. The insane amounts of high DPS harassing options give terran this ability that protoss simply lacks. In fact so far protoss and zerg were having a hard time dealing with all these variations that terran could throw at them till Blizzard buffed them to a point where zerg is competitive and protoss may be borderline OP. But knowing this information is different from implementing. I am sure Flash knew he had to pressure Effort at some point, but at what ? If he leaves base too early or too late his army gets decimated. If he attacks at wrong points it will give his opponent more time. All these things only come with practice which these players have had very little off. I think a month or two into this we will start seeing more refined plays. Till then I am afraid we will probably see toss winning till some terran figures out how make two raxes before an expansion or discovers the banshee :D. All it all fairly amusing to see .
the thing with timings like that though is that it's so easy to make up a random timing and figure out how it works out just by picking timings at random (at first at least) or based off of a few reads (such as lair/hive/3rd/4th timings) and drops tend to be good at any timing so long as there aren't huge packs of mutas around to snipe the instantly drops force plenty of units without risking huge main gamechanging armies too
The problem is that KeSPA protects its players so much... From this exclusivity with MLG to what one would assume would be no participation in GSL. The BW pros have no top tier SC2 pros to compare notes and test against. They can only go on ladder and see how things work out there sure,but it can be a total crapshoot sometimes. So all they have left is each other to try and learn from. It's like putting a bunch of Bronze players in a room and telling them they must make it to GM.
On May 21 2012 16:34 OopsOopsBaby wrote: this format is so fucking horrible.
It's not so bad... I'm gonna go out on a limb and just guess that you happen to not like Starcraft 2.
The problem is, they are really only appealing to fans of both games. That's an ever narrower audience than BW alone, or SC2 alone (in Korea)... they are hoping people will want to watch both games. Usually 1 doesn't mix with the other. I happen to like both :/
On May 21 2012 16:20 xxpack09 wrote: such a long pause for such a quick steamrolling ;;
The game was over at the 8 minute mark The moment jaehoon failed the attack with poor tech and then the expo was the nail in the coffin.
The worse game ever must had been the first PvP in yesterdays Proleague when one player went 2 DT rush only to morph the into a archon and then getting killed by a stalker rush. Those 500 gas spent into 5 immortals instead would prolly had won him the game lol.
-.- if you actually paid attention the toss spotted the observer blur and knew his dt tech was scouted. It wasn't going to work so he opted for the archon and a contain. Where the hell was he going to pull 5 immortals from in time to do anything when he didnt even have a robo? That game was actually decent overall, you're just clueless
On May 21 2012 16:29 power-overwhelming wrote: Cant wait to see Bisu play sc2. I like how BW toss prefer warp prism rather than planting pylons everywhere. Always wondered why sc2 pros waste minerals on pylons that wont be used/killed when warp prism can warp it anywhere you want.
Because WP takes 200 mins and T2 tech isntead of 100 mins and no tech. plus supply so you can work it into openings.
On May 21 2012 16:20 xxpack09 wrote: such a long pause for such a quick steamrolling ;;
The game was over at the 8 minute mark The moment jaehoon failed the attack with poor tech and then the expo was the nail in the coffin.
The worse game ever must had been the first PvP in yesterdays Proleague when one player went 2 DT rush only to morph the into a archon and then getting killed by a stalker rush. Those 500 gas spent into 5 immortals instead would prolly had won him the game lol.
-.- if you actually paid attention the toss spotted the observer blur and knew his dt tech was scouted. It wasn't going to work so he opted for the archon and a contain. Where the hell was he going to pull 5 immortals from in time to do anything when he didnt even have a robo? That game was actually decent overall, you're just clueless
Ya, that BeSt game is awesome. The purpose of an Archon, anyways, is to trample the FF up the ramp... not for DPS or something. So it had a very direct purpose.
On May 21 2012 16:20 xxpack09 wrote: such a long pause for such a quick steamrolling ;;
The game was over at the 8 minute mark The moment jaehoon failed the attack with poor tech and then the expo was the nail in the coffin.
The worse game ever must had been the first PvP in yesterdays Proleague when one player went 2 DT rush only to morph the into a archon and then getting killed by a stalker rush. Those 500 gas spent into 5 immortals instead would prolly had won him the game lol.
-.- if you actually paid attention the toss spotted the observer blur and knew his dt tech was scouted. It wasn't going to work so he opted for the archon and a contain. Where the hell was he going to pull 5 immortals from in time to do anything when he didnt even have a robo? That game was actually decent overall, you're just clueless
archons all ins are pretty common in pvp, they are strong, he probably didnt even want dts
On May 21 2012 16:20 xxpack09 wrote: such a long pause for such a quick steamrolling ;;
The game was over at the 8 minute mark The moment jaehoon failed the attack with poor tech and then the expo was the nail in the coffin.
The worse game ever must had been the first PvP in yesterdays Proleague when one player went 2 DT rush only to morph the into a archon and then getting killed by a stalker rush. Those 500 gas spent into 5 immortals instead would prolly had won him the game lol.
-.- if you actually paid attention the toss spotted the observer blur and knew his dt tech was scouted. It wasn't going to work so he opted for the archon and a contain. Where the hell was he going to pull 5 immortals from in time to do anything when he didnt even have a robo? That game was actually decent overall, you're just clueless
Plenty of games where that attack would had done more damage to the income than just morphing them into an archon his chances of actually doing damage and delaying his opponent was much higher than him trying to defend with one archon, not to mention he could had boosted out a observer himself and snipe the opponents observer and defend with the DT's and so forth. IF HE actually saw the observer in the first place.
On May 21 2012 16:29 Fionn wrote: It really is hell for T8. Even Ace looked pretty decent in SC2 while all of T8's games have been awful. Their saving grace might be that JD's pure talent can will him to victory and Baby is supposedly good, but already -7 after two games is terrible.
Sea and Jaehoon look like lost causes at the moment. Movie and by.hero will need to contribute big time.
by.hero lacks practice so don't expect too much from him just yet. He left STX house some months ago, was going to retire but Team 8 management persuaded him to give it one last try because they needed another experienced zerg after Killer's sudden retirement. When STX first started practicing SC2 last year, by.hero supposedly showed some of the best results among their players but I don't know what his form is like now after being away from a pro-team for some time.
On May 21 2012 16:20 xxpack09 wrote: such a long pause for such a quick steamrolling ;;
The game was over at the 8 minute mark The moment jaehoon failed the attack with poor tech and then the expo was the nail in the coffin.
The worse game ever must had been the first PvP in yesterdays Proleague when one player went 2 DT rush only to morph the into a archon and then getting killed by a stalker rush. Those 500 gas spent into 5 immortals instead would prolly had won him the game lol.
-.- if you actually paid attention the toss spotted the observer blur and knew his dt tech was scouted. It wasn't going to work so he opted for the archon and a contain. Where the hell was he going to pull 5 immortals from in time to do anything when he didnt even have a robo? That game was actually decent overall, you're just clueless
Plenty of games where that attack would had done more damage to the income than just morphing them into an archon his chances of actually doing damage and delaying his opponent was much higher than him trying to defend with one archon, not to mention he could had boosted out a observer himself and snipe the opponents observer and defend with the DT's and so forth. IF HE actually saw the observer in the first place.
He knew there was a robo, he knew he was scouted early enough and that the ramp would be blocked with an obs being chronoed. At best he was going to take some shield off a stalker. He didn't have a robo started so where's this obs coming from and how's he going to snipe Best's with way less anti air and no blink vs immortal/stalker? Also the dt tech meant more zealots and the archon was going to be useful on either offence or defence against ff's
On May 21 2012 14:46 darklight54321 wrote: another way to put this is
Even after the game is won, the ai is so horrible that it takes the player minutes to get into position they can take advantage of the game being won, but reinforcements have already arrived. Now the player who's already won, barring a miracle, has to fight another battle he's almost guaranteed to win to finish off the game.
People talk about how the pathfinding makes the game more dynamic and how the restrictions make the game more interesting, but i just see it as people who want the game to be over once it's over vs the people who just want to see if someoen makes a big mistake and loses a game they had won 15 minutes before.
Besides some stupid moves by some players (like Fantasy waiting for the other opponent to kill every fucking building or floating shit around) there's actual ways to come back in a TvT due to the strength of tanks, the mobility of wraiths and drops and turrets actually dealing damage, which let you have only some defense back at your base while still putting up a fight around the map.
Of course it doesn't apply to every TvT (like wraith vs wraith), but most fights are won around map control (deploying a tank line before your opponent does) and controlling expansions, not just having a bigger army. Sometimes engagements are full army battles, but in general is about being cost efficient with engagements, even if it's 3 tanks in an expansion shooting a geyser, or 3 tanks and 4 vultures winning over 6 tanks due to position or spider mines.
Talking about TvT like that shows how little you know :/
Although T8 lost i feel happy because Jeadong won and thats whats most important for me. the SC2 TvT was pretty good too. Looking forward to T8 vs KTrolster. GOGO T8!
Did anybody catch who CJ sent out for the third set for SC2? I found that Ryul2 was the player for Team 8 on the KeSPA website, but it doesn't say who for CJ.
All VODs can be found here something like 15 Minutes after the game happened: http://www.youtube.com/user/ESportsTV This link also provides the official stream wich for some reason does not work for germany ... TT
The one thing I can say about the LR thread is that I really like how recently in the GSL threads they've been doing a 5-star rating system instead of this recommended games system. I prefer that, though I'm not sure about everyone else?
On May 22 2012 00:10 Gfire wrote: The one thing I can say about the LR thread is that I really like how recently in the GSL threads they've been doing a 5-star rating system instead of this recommended games system. I prefer that, though I'm not sure about everyone else?
It always has been done this way for proleague games.
On May 22 2012 00:10 Gfire wrote: The one thing I can say about the LR thread is that I really like how recently in the GSL threads they've been doing a 5-star rating system instead of this recommended games system. I prefer that, though I'm not sure about everyone else?
It always has been done this way for proleague games.
Reposting here too from the BW tourny thread so my question can be awnsered, Did anyone catch what Jaedong said about SC2 when he did his winners interview?
On May 22 2012 00:10 Gfire wrote: The one thing I can say about the LR thread is that I really like how recently in the GSL threads they've been doing a 5-star rating system instead of this recommended games system. I prefer that, though I'm not sure about everyone else?
It always has been done this way for proleague games.
That's not really a good argument.
It's always been done that way for GSL, too, afaik, until recently.
On May 21 2012 15:50 Emporio wrote: I haven't had a chance to watch any of the PL. Is the SC2 any good (compared to actual SC2 pros)?
It's been a wide range, some have shown potential and some are so clueless about how the game works that when the two get paired versus each other it's hard to tell how the one's looking good would do versus an actually good player.
Yup, Jangbi and Effort seem to have a good grasp of the game and strategies, they need more work but they're not too bad. Flash needs more work, at least on his TvZ, cuz he didn't put pressure on Effort at all who proceeded to drone like mad and max within the first 10-11 minutes or so, but his macro's there. Jaedong REALLY needs more practice, he had good mechanics but strategically and decision-making wise, he was totally out of sorts.
i think flash's biggest problem with sc2 is that he is stuck in the bw mentality of "the longer the game goes with me macroing right the farther ahead i am" which is true when you're building the bw superarmy of terran esp if you're flash but in sc2 terrans generally need to do damage to protoss and to pressure zergs to prevent absolute drone freedom
when flash catches on to this he will improve rapidly just from applying the concept...this however will be difficult for him as he has held the same lategame or bust mindset for so many years in bw (when he doesn't cheese that is)
His problem is that he hasn't been playing the game long enough.
He probably understands all of this concepts significantly better than you do, the difference is actually implementing them properly when for years he's been playing with bw concepts of armies and economic relationships.
Agreed. I am fairly sure that all BW players playing terran in SC2 know that terrans need to constantly pressure in all matchups. I don't know anyone who will win a TvZ with turtling and the same goes for TvP. Its constant harrassing and dropping and attacking on multiple points, sniping key tech buildings etc. The insane amounts of high DPS harassing options give terran this ability that protoss simply lacks. In fact so far protoss and zerg were having a hard time dealing with all these variations that terran could throw at them till Blizzard buffed them to a point where zerg is competitive and protoss may be borderline OP. But knowing this information is different from implementing. I am sure Flash knew he had to pressure Effort at some point, but at what ? If he leaves base too early or too late his army gets decimated. If he attacks at wrong points it will give his opponent more time. All these things only come with practice which these players have had very little off. I think a month or two into this we will start seeing more refined plays. Till then I am afraid we will probably see toss winning till some terran figures out how make two raxes before an expansion or discovers the banshee :D. All it all fairly amusing to see .
the thing with timings like that though is that it's so easy to make up a random timing and figure out how it works out just by picking timings at random (at first at least) or based off of a few reads (such as lair/hive/3rd/4th timings) and drops tend to be good at any timing so long as there aren't huge packs of mutas around to snipe the instantly drops force plenty of units without risking huge main gamechanging armies too
Maybe he's like Thorzain and he gets really scared whenever he moves out and refuses to drop because it's scary (see RedBull LAN). Flash just hasn't learned the way of the spoon yet.
Flash does more drop play than most and is very aggressive in TvZ, he made 2 base +1 5 Rax popular, and he often does bunker rushes, or game-winning pushes with tiny armies. Aggressive play is by no means foreign to him.
His fast 3rd was most likely because of the metagame between Flash and Effort that we are unlikely to every figure out.
Whenever we watch Flash play, not a case of "How will Flash lose?" but rather "How will Flash beat himself". Most of the games he lost in proleague as well as the OSL, was where Flash took an overly excessive risk, like cancelling turrets, 14CC, not building vultures, etc.
His willingness to take these risks though is what makes him such a strong player, never before have we had players who treat Starcraft like poker. Its a double edged sword, as this playstyle will never net him the same consistency as a player like Bisu who has the highest win record in proleague/winners-league (3-4 all-kills, 2 losses overall).
Flash was forced into this playstyle because of his late-arrival to SC, a lot of the top players started at a much younger age allowing themselves to develop better mechanics, Flash had only 1 month of full practice to get his progamer license. Even now his mechanics are his least defining factor, there's no way he could take a game off the top players with pure mechanical play.
In simplistic terms these are the defining traits of the top players
Whenever Flash tries to play these three on a non-metagame level he often loses. Perfect examples are when Bisu will dictate the game, so that it is a game of multitask and micro, so that Flash can't play to his strengths.
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