EPT[Code S] Semi-Final 2012 GSL Season 2 - Page 151
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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NuclearJudas
6546 Posts
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:03 Lightspeaker wrote: Funniest thing I've read in ages. Can I try now? "MVP won against the best PvT player in the world with early-game all-ins and made it look easy. Therefore clearly Terran is OP. When another Terran wins a Star League I want it to be a real legit win; not someone being carried by their OP all-in race." Did I do it right? Honestly your entire argument is absurd. Terran has the mid-game advantage and Protoss has the late-game advantage. The problem is that at EVERY point in the matchup there's too much volatility. Misclick a forcefield? You're dead. Miscontrol your marines? You're dead. Stim at the wrong time? You're dead. Blink at the wrong time? You're dead. And then the late-game devolves into a dance between Stalkers/Vikings/Colossi and a game of "who can use their casters to hit their AoE attack first?" between HTs and Ghosts. And in the game of casters you win or you die (hello Song of Ice and Fire reference). Matchup is frustratingly badly designed. But it's not imbalanced. Except if you're weak in the early game and play defensive you can hold and then just roll the late game. Which is infinitely preferable to being obliged to all in before the game reaches three bases unless you want a sub 20% chance to win. | ||
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Chunhyang
Bangladesh1389 Posts
On May 10 2012 23:15 pms wrote: Well, what I've said is true. It's just a matter of how many observations (how many years of GSL finals you have). 1) I don't know if BW is balance or not, even if the community says it is - it may be not, I just don't know. Some tests should be taken. It may be balanced, but we didn't have period of observation long enough yet (10 years). 2) I totally agree with the first part of your statement. This is EXACTLY why it's so hard to asses if the game is balanced or not. Because of the correlations and streaks you need a long period of observation. But if the period of observation is long enough (maybe not 5-10 years, but more) then the distributions should be COMPLETELY EVEN. Just like in the CENTRAL LIMIT THEOREM. The point I was actually trying to subltly make was that number of championships is really quite an unreliable way to assess balance, espcially such a low number. Additionally, there are other factors to consider, like who the player is, constant balance adjustments, and just plain old luck. I'd also like to point out that Terran winning the most championships over history doesn't mean Terran is the strongest right now. Also, the fact that Terran has been imbalanced in the past doesn't mean that Protoss or Zerg has a vested right to be imbalanced now, or that Terrans aren't allowed to complain. No race has a "right" to be imba at any point in time. We talk about balance in the present, the here and now, and nobody should really desire that after a certain amount of time, all races have a relatively equal amount. What we want, what the ideal truly is, is that at any point in time, representatives from any one of the three races has an almost equal chance of winning the game or the tournament, past stats be damned. If P is imba now, it should be corrected, past T or Z dominance being irrelevant. + Show Spoiler + MVP is such a king. I see no guilt whatsoever that he's gone cheesy to win. Such a stone cold pro <3 | ||
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Chunhyang
Bangladesh1389 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:25 SKTerran.117 wrote: so if mvp wins the finals can we start muttering the b-word? :p Bacon? | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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power-overwhelming
Canada306 Posts
The past month they've been crying Toss OP because all the best PvTers destroyed the Terrans. They then cried balance and it's "unfair" that Blizzard only gave Terran 6 months of dominance before balancing all races together. Consequently, in that time of their dominance, any Protoss that would beat them (MC) would get labeled all innish, timing attacker, no skill etc. Yet when their "king" makes his way to the semi-final cheesing a Toss for 3 games, then cheesing again to make it to the finals, the "better player won". Or wait, it's "perfectly countered greedy builds". Last time I checked when MC 2 base timing attacked MVP at MLG who went for 3 cc's and 2 engi bay before stim everyone hated on MC for "all inning". I know double standard doesn't exist in this forum due to extreme bias, but at least be consistent lol. Everyone hates on a PvP finals, but do tell me MVP games vs Naniwa and Parting were better than a generic PvP? | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
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noddy
United Kingdom927 Posts
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Veclada
742 Posts
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:42 power-overwhelming wrote: Lol Terrans never cease to amuse me. The past month they've been crying Toss OP because all the best PvTers destroyed the Terrans. They then cried balance and it's "unfair" that Blizzard only gave Terran 6 months of dominance before balancing all races together. Consequently, in that time of their dominance, any Protoss that would beat them (MC) would get labeled all innish, timing attacker, no skill etc. Yet when their "king" makes his way to the semi-final cheesing a Toss for 3 games, then cheesing again to make it to the finals, the "better player won". Or wait, it's "perfectly countered greedy builds". Last time I checked when MC 2 base timing attacked MVP at MLG who went for 3 cc's and 2 engi bay before stim everyone hated on MC for "all inning". I know double standard doesn't exist in this forum due to extreme bias, but at least be consistent lol. Everyone hates on a PvP finals, but do tell me MVP games vs Naniwa and Parting were better than a generic PvP? First game was no cheese. 2nd game was and 1-1-1 and i guess u can call that cheese but i have seen it fail more than succeed against top protoss players in the past couple of months. 4th game was standard play, not cheese at all. He just took a big risk with dropping his whole army in partings base. I agree there are double standards regarding timing attacks but you cant say MVP cheesed against parting. | ||
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MagmaPunch
Bulgaria536 Posts
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OrchidThief
Denmark2298 Posts
MVP is so good, regardless of wrist condition or not. Definitely fourth win incoming, miles better than Squirtle. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Its really funny how this hate on allins turned sc2 into a eco cheese fest. | ||
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cmcaneff5502
United States116 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:42 power-overwhelming wrote: Lol Terrans never cease to amuse me. The past month they've been crying Toss OP because all the best PvTers destroyed the Terrans. They then cried balance and it's "unfair" that Blizzard only gave Terran 6 months of dominance before balancing all races together. Consequently, in that time of their dominance, any Protoss that would beat them (MC) would get labeled all innish, timing attacker, no skill etc. Yet when their "king" makes his way to the semi-final cheesing a Toss for 3 games, then cheesing again to make it to the finals, the "better player won". Or wait, it's "perfectly countered greedy builds". Last time I checked when MC 2 base timing attacked MVP at MLG who went for 3 cc's and 2 engi bay before stim everyone hated on MC for "all inning". I know double standard doesn't exist in this forum due to extreme bias, but at least be consistent lol. Everyone hates on a PvP finals, but do tell me MVP games vs Naniwa and Parting were better than a generic PvP? Are you blind kid? If there is any player in SC2 who has proved himself in ANY type of game, it's mvp. And yes, he cheeses protoss currently. He wins. What other terrans, playing standard late games, are beating protoss? Obviously it's the only way to win the MU currently. But i guess you're the type of person to ignore a player's entire history because of two series. That's really swell of you | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:04 architecture wrote: If something can be poorly designed and not imbalanced, then maybe balance is completely irrelevant as a metric? If TvT is a better matchup than PvZ and PvT, there's something wrong with how Blizzard is going about designing the game fundamentally. Wow this is what every person who played bw said but everyone else (clueless people) just called them elitists. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On May 11 2012 01:03 Fjodorov wrote: First game was no cheese. 2nd game was and 1-1-1 and i guess u can call that cheese but i have seen it fail more than succeed against top protoss players in the past couple of months. 4th game was standard play, not cheese at all. He just took a big risk with dropping his whole army in partings base. I agree there are double standards regarding timing attacks but you cant say MVP cheesed against parting. Amen. My Terran brothers, practice partners, teammates have an interesting pattern of exaggeration that is totally natural. Everyone exaggerates their own race's inadequacies and demands the world to agree with them. The same happens with their opponent's strengths, they'll labeled imbalanced, overpowered, beyond the pale. Here we have MVP, a skilled player, winning in TvP. I had previously heard declared that Terran can not win TvP. The particular charge was TvP lategame was unwinnable by Terran. Yet, MVP went willingly into it game 3 & 4. He was fully prepared to take a third and macro off that. To get both ghosts and vikings and use them if need be. Game three he lost, Game 4 he saw the opportunity to double back on a doom drop and catch PartinG unprepared. Bravo. Skill triumphs once again. I'll listen through the game 1 & 2 descriptions proving this or that point on how the matchup is supposedly hopeless (i.e. that the timing attack and 1base allin was out of desperation and not best three out of five planning). Maybe in the back of their minds there still exists a germ of the idea that the better player usually wins, and that'll grow some from yesterday/todays matches. | ||
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