EPT[Code S] Semi-Final 2012 GSL Season 2 - Page 146
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On May 10 2012 20:53 Eternalmisfit wrote: Not going to argue balance as I believe it is the a futile argument to have with everyone having rigid preconceived notions but the statistics you are using are not representative of the current state of PvT (and neither the ones that I will present below). The Korean PvT last month was ~55-45 in Protoss favor. Also, if you just account for Code S PvT, it is 36-27 in toss favor. (accounting for today's games) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/2620_2012_GSL_S2_Code_S/games/TvP The point I am trying to make is not that the match-up is balanced or imbalanced either way. It is that the statistics that you are posting (and also the ones I am posting) are misleading as by changing the sample size set up or down, one can easily use them to support any preconceived biases the people have. Frankly, none of the sample sets often used to discuss balance have sufficient relevance to be actually used for balance discussion. I never said anything about balance. "Protoss dominating in the GSL" is clearly a statement that refers to Protosses doing disproportionately well in the GSL (the "GSL" being both Code A and Code S), yet the statistics show that they're clearly not, if you evaluate "dominance" on the basis of winrates (I don't see how else you'd evaluate "dominance"). Therefore, the statement "Protoss are dominating the GSL" is an objectively incorrect statement, and that's all I'm taking issue with. If people want to say "Protoss are dominating in Code S" then they need to say that, rather than substituting "GSL" for "Code S", which makes the statement misleadingly stronger. I am also taking issue with the word "dominating". I don't know how most people view the word, but it's a pretty strong word as far as I'm concerned, and 55-45 is hardly "dominating". | ||
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Rainfall7711
329 Posts
On May 10 2012 20:53 Eternalmisfit wrote: Not going to argue balance as I believe it is the a futile argument to have with everyone having rigid preconceived notions but the statistics you are using are not representative of the current state of PvT (and neither the ones that I will present below). The Korean PvT last month was ~55-45 in Protoss favor. Also, if you just account for Code S PvT, it is 36-27 in toss favor. (accounting for today's games) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/2620_2012_GSL_S2_Code_S/games/TvP The point I am trying to make is not that the match-up is balanced or imbalanced either way. It is that the statistics that you are posting (and also the ones I am posting) are misleading as by changing the sample size set up or down, one can easily use them to support any preconceived biases the people have. Frankly, none of the sample sets often used to discuss balance have sufficient relevance to be actually used for balance discussion. So the point is any recent facts and stats mean nothing right? Due to sample sizes etc etc. Well then let's take reliable facts from the beginning of Starcraft 2. Protoss is the worst race out of the 3. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37118 Posts
On May 10 2012 20:55 Dosey wrote: Little late but... ![[image loading]](http://s14.postimage.org/ta9jis3yl/herosquirtle.jpg) Clap..... Clap..... Clap.... HerO  | ||
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Dosey
United States4505 Posts
Sorry... I had to... He was my vote on liquibets too if it's any consolation | ||
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Chunhyang
Bangladesh1389 Posts
On May 10 2012 20:52 HolyArrow wrote: That's a fine point, but that just annoys me by principle. I'm a pretty empathetic person - I can understand that people really get into the game and root massively for a certain player or race. But I also believe that all fans deserve the satisfaction of seeing their favorite race win a fair amount. If the situations were magically reversed and Protoss switched places with Terran in terms of big-picture GSL success, I'd be extremely okay with a Terran champion or two, because it's about time - I'd say it's only fair to the Terran fans to see more Terran winners. But, that's not reality. The reality is that Terran has had the most champions and Protoss has had by far the least, and it just annoys me that despite all this, some people really want to see yet another Terran Code S win. Don't get me wrong - I clearly have no greater moral basis for my stance on this, and people who really want to see another Terran win aren't objectively wrong in any way. It's just my personal philosophy that all fans should see ideally their race win a roughly proportionate amount of times, because everyone deserves to be satisfied as viewers. Ok. But I'm a Celtics fan, I want them to win everything, every game, every time, and I don't care if any other team ever wins another championship and their fans cry in agony. He may like his Terran just like I love my Celtics. Or, like I was saying, he may just be a hater. I'm leaning towards the latter lol. His tone implies it anyway. Anyway, with three races, how many GSL seasons are needed so that there is a statistically significant number so we can objectively say that one race is better than the rest? I remember some guy saying that in an NBA series, it would take a 43 game series so that we can really say with certainty "the better team won". How about if there are three teams/races? Anyone know? | ||
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
Having a protoss win is not going to make your ladder experience any better. Choose your favorite players for their skill and passion/attitude/whatever. Basing it on things like race, both in game and out (korean/foreigner) is pretty stupid to me. | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
Go MVP! | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:03 Chunhyang wrote: Ok. But I'm a Celtics fan, I want them to win everything, every game, every time, and I don't care if any other team ever wins another championship and their fans cry in agony. He may like his Terran just like I love my Celtics. Or, like I was saying, he may just be a hater. I'm leaning towards the latter lol. His tone implies it anyway. Anyway, with three races, how many GSL seasons are needed so that there is a statistically significant number so we can objectively say that one race is better than the rest? I remember some guy saying that in an NBA series, it would take a 43 game series so that we can really say with certainty "the better team won". How about if there are three teams/races? Anyone know? Umm.. it would take a large sample even between just two players, let alone a statistical average of players from each race (one player could simply be better and skew the results). By the time the sample size is large enough to draw any meaningful conclusion, the game will be unrecognizable. | ||
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Chunhyang
Bangladesh1389 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:06 zefreak wrote: Umm.. it would take a large sample even between just two players, let alone a statistical average of players from each race (one player could simply be better and skew the results). By the time the sample size is large enough to draw any meaningful conclusion, the game will be unrecognizable. Dang. That's big then. Thanks. | ||
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Dosey
United States4505 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:04 Hall0wed wrote: So this is a little early but does anyone know of any barcrafts that usually go down for these in LA or Anaheim? Because I will be in LA that weekend for SM Town and am afraid the hotel internet will end up being shit. I'm sure if you asked one of the NASL guys they'd be able to tell you. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:03 Chunhyang wrote: Ok. But I'm a Celtics fan, I want them to win everything, every game, every time, and I don't care if any other team ever wins another championship and their fans cry in agony. He may like his Terran just like I love my Celtics. Or, like I was saying, he may just be a hater. I'm leaning towards the latter lol. His tone implies it anyway. Anyway, with three races, how many GSL seasons are needed so that there is a statistically significant number so we can objectively say that one race is better than the rest? I remember some guy saying that in an NBA series, it would take a 43 game series so that we can really say with certainty "the better team won". How about if there are three teams/races? Anyone know? Yes, I agree that he may like Terran just as you like your Celtics, or he might be a hater. I even acknowledged that I have no objective moral basis for looking down on the attitude of solely wanting your favorite team/race/player to win everything as everyone else cries in agony. I just personally think it's pretty selfish and thus it annoys me. I want everyone to be happy and it irks me that people want to hog all the "happiness" to themselves. | ||
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
God, what I'd give to be able to see the VoDs... | ||
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Moonalisa
Sweden15 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:11 kafkaesque wrote: MVP in the finals once more? God, what I'd give to be able to see the VoDs... $20? | ||
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
I think he meant now. | ||
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37118 Posts
Just for that, when I go to the GSL, imma hold up a sign saying "kingxxx can suck my xxx" | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:04 zefreak wrote: Why people only root for the race they happen to play is beyond me. GSL skills are so beyond any of ours that its like they are playing a different game. I'm a terran player and I root for Nestea/DRG/Leenock over any terran other than Mvp/MMA. Squirtle is awesome and even though I was rooting against Parting today, he still has the best PvT around and I want others to adopt his style and HT control. Having a protoss win is not going to make your ladder experience any better. Choose your favorite players for their skill and passion/attitude/whatever. Basing it on things like race, both in game and out (korean/foreigner) is pretty stupid to me. Speaking of ladder experiences, I absolutely hate it when people whine about balance on the basis of their shitty, petty ladder experiences. People put way too much of their personal egos into it, and it annoys me that people want balance to be changed on large part due to their ladder experiences when the pros are the ones who truly have a stake in the game. If the game isn't balanced at any level below the professional level, I couldn't care less. SC2 to virtually everyone else using their trivial ladder experiences to whine about balance, is, ultimately, just a game. A game that they paid a relatively minor sum of money for. To the pros, it's not just a game - it's their career. Although balance at all levels is clearly ideal, I'll take a balanced professional level and an imbalanced lower level any day over the opposite, and everyone else should too, because the pros deserve it far more than random ladder players who just play as a hobby. People really need to get over themselves in that regard. Anyway, that was a rather arbitrary rant in retrospect, but I think it had to be said. | ||
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
Things are really tight this month, I'm glad if I can even manage to afford DIII. | ||
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ryx
Philippines38 Posts
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