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On May 04 2012 04:06 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:58 forsooth wrote:On May 03 2012 20:37 Herry wrote:
Terrans need to change their tune. Protoss' keep winning and just they keep making MMM. Someone has to figure out that bio just isnt working anymore, all top toss' are way to good. Mech is a lot worse and biomech is ultimately less efficient outside of 1-2 base timings/all-ins. There aren't alternatives thanks to every Protoss unit except sentries countering all factory units. People need to stop pretending like Terran can just pick a different style. I cannot count how many times i've lost to tanks and I've seen other pros lose to tanks. This whole notion that mech is bad vs Protoss is nonsense. Pure mech is bad,but bio mech is pretty good. Tanks are a real annoyance to say the least.
Immortals and chargelots are a direct counter to tanks, stalkers are not bad either (as dragoon in bw). If you dump your gas into tanks instead of marauders at the end P just has to adapt the number or immortals/chargelots to the number of tanks, rest being stalkers or aoe units.
I will continue with bio until a better option is "found".
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On May 03 2012 20:06 DeMusliM wrote:
protoss isn't very good at the top top pro level guys, david kim be fixing that shit soon.
These protosses are on fire right now (Parting is crazy good, Hero always good, Squirtle went Blastoise on IPL), after all people didnt qq when it was 7 terrans in top 8 ....
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So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it.
All those devastating storms that go off and make the game look imbalanced...? How about use some actual EMPs, ghost cloak, snipe templar and observers? How many games in the past have been completely swung by EMPs but now terran aren't even using them?
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On May 04 2012 03:50 power-overwhelming wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:58 SniXSniPe wrote:On May 03 2012 23:24 power-overwhelming wrote:
I just don't get the whine balance. Why can't people realize that the only reason P is strong is because MC is not the only good Protoss now and that all these Terrans have only been fighting other Terrans and Zergs the past 6 seasons.
It's really ironic how when Terrans were dominating since the start of SC2 it was because "best players play Terran" but in this one season Protoss does well it's automatically imbalance lol.
All the Protoss who advanced are godly at PvTs.. even Naniwa. If MVP did not cheese him out Naniwa would've advanced and would be a RO4 protoss. Similar to the Super Tournament when it was all Terrans. You must have missed all the Terran nerfs. Bunkers had a small nerf. Barracks building time was nerfed. EMP was nerfed. Reapers were nerfed. Stimpack was nerfed. BFH were nerfed. Thors were nerfed. Only nerf I can think of for Protoss is their storm. They were buffed for immortals, forge upgrades, and archons (splash, or was that in the beta? I don't remember). Now you wonder why Terran was dominate in the start of SC2, as well as having maps favorable to T back in the day for the most part? And also, it is true there are more BW pros playing Terran than the other races, take it for what you will however. Let me dissect your Terran nerfs 1. Bunker 100% salvage never made any sense. What kind of game design allows someone to make buildings and get full refund for it? Be thankful you get 75% back 2. Barracks time was nerf to the same time as other tier 1 unit builder. Why should Barracks build 5 second faster than Gateway? 3. EMP radius was nerfed to THE SAME SIZE AS STORM. Why the hell should EMP, an ability that COMES IN FREE, from a unit that is faster, more range, and has the ability to cloak and MORE ENERGY, be bigger in size than storm? 4. Reapers nerfed because a unit that ignores pathing doing that much dmg is bad game design. Terran already has something like that called vikings 5. Stimpack nerf.. as if Stimpack is even an issue now 6. BFH nerf. Well when terrans can just build 10 hellions and roast 80 workers then it's imbalance
7. Thors nerfed. Lol coz they are underpowered right now right?Funny thing is, those nerf happened because Terran as race started overpowered as shit to begin with. Think of it this way, it took all those nerf for both races to catch up to Terran. Now that MU are nearing 50% win rate better players are winning regardless of race.
Well they aren't very useful in TvT and TvP so they aren't any good either. They're pretty good against Zerg but other than that ? A few BO's if your opponent doesn't know how to react to them and if you are desperate in TvT since there's no way to regain aircontrol with Vikings.
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On May 04 2012 04:06 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:58 forsooth wrote:On May 03 2012 20:37 Herry wrote:
Terrans need to change their tune. Protoss' keep winning and just they keep making MMM. Someone has to figure out that bio just isnt working anymore, all top toss' are way to good. Mech is a lot worse and biomech is ultimately less efficient outside of 1-2 base timings/all-ins. There aren't alternatives thanks to every Protoss unit except sentries countering all factory units. People need to stop pretending like Terran can just pick a different style. I cannot count how many times i've lost to tanks and I've seen other pros lose to tanks. This whole notion that mech is bad vs Protoss is nonsense. Pure mech is bad,but bio mech is pretty good. Tanks are a real annoyance to say the least.
Tanks are a joke against chargelots and immortals, and a colossus based army will shit on any kind of tank/bio composition a Terran goes for. Losing to a Terran going biomech in a standard macro game is just bad play, pure and simple. There's no excuse for it.
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On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it.
The problem with Ghosts is this. They make your army slower than the lategame Protoss army. If you need to move around alot don't take Ghosts with your army or they die .
Its also very hard to EMP every Templar is the Toss knows what he's doing. If he positions his army well before the fight he will just move in the Templar when he specifically wants to Storm and in most cases you don't you every position he put his Templars because on the current maps theres way too much open space.
If the Protoss is very good and knows what he's doing you will not win the Ghost/HT battle . Its easier to grab 1 HT you positioned before the battle and move in to Storm than to wait for him to appear in your sight , magically grab a Ghost that is near enough to EMP/Snipe before he Storms. I mean yeah if you find most of HT's before the battle and know where they are you will probably win the EMP battle but thats not very realistic with Korean Toss anymore.
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On May 04 2012 04:29 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it. The problem with Ghosts is this. They make your army slower than the lategame Protoss army. If you need to move around alot don't take Ghosts with your army or they die . Its also very hard to EMP every Templar is the Toss knows what he's doing. If he positions his army well before the fight he will just move in the Templar when he specifically wants to Storm and in most cases you don't you every position he put his Templars because on the current maps theres way too much open space.
Templars make the protoss army even slower >_<
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3 protoss 1 terran for this gsls RO4
Since MVP has his wrist problem and isn't that strong TvP looks like its gunna be a PvP final
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On May 04 2012 04:30 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:29 s3rp wrote:On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it. The problem with Ghosts is this. They make your army slower than the lategame Protoss army. If you need to move around alot don't take Ghosts with your army or they die . Its also very hard to EMP every Templar is the Toss knows what he's doing. If he positions his army well before the fight he will just move in the Templar when he specifically wants to Storm and in most cases you don't you every position he put his Templars because on the current maps theres way too much open space. Templars make the protoss army even slower >_<
But the Korean Protoss started to position them pre-fight at random proxy Polyns/Positions and move in with them when needed . They don't run around with them unless they really need to because they are so slow.
Dealing with HT's alone is very doable combining them with easy to use 9 range Colossi and its it gets very dicey since for whatever reason Blizzard decided they wanted AA as the Colossus counter but gave the AA nothing to make them any useful besides AA.
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On May 04 2012 04:34 Sweatshop wrote:
3 protoss 1 terran for this gsls RO4
Since MVP has his wrist problem and isn't that strong TvP looks like its gunna be a PvP final
Not to mention he's facing PartinG in a PvT :o
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On May 04 2012 04:34 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:30 Valikyr wrote:On May 04 2012 04:29 s3rp wrote:On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it. The problem with Ghosts is this. They make your army slower than the lategame Protoss army. If you need to move around alot don't take Ghosts with your army or they die . Its also very hard to EMP every Templar is the Toss knows what he's doing. If he positions his army well before the fight he will just move in the Templar when he specifically wants to Storm and in most cases you don't you every position he put his Templars because on the current maps theres way too much open space. Templars make the protoss army even slower >_< But the Korean Protoss started to position them pre-fight and random proxy Polyns and move in with them when needed . They don't run around with them unless they really need to because of it.
Waittt... so can't you position ghosts pre-fight too? Cloaking ghosts and moving them ahead of the army is also pretty effective too. You can't warp in HTs from random pylons because they won't have energy for storm.
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On May 04 2012 04:37 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:34 s3rp wrote:On May 04 2012 04:30 Valikyr wrote:On May 04 2012 04:29 s3rp wrote:On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it. The problem with Ghosts is this. They make your army slower than the lategame Protoss army. If you need to move around alot don't take Ghosts with your army or they die . Its also very hard to EMP every Templar is the Toss knows what he's doing. If he positions his army well before the fight he will just move in the Templar when he specifically wants to Storm and in most cases you don't you every position he put his Templars because on the current maps theres way too much open space. Templars make the protoss army even slower >_< But the Korean Protoss started to position them pre-fight and random proxy Polyns and move in with them when needed . They don't run around with them unless they really need to because of it. Waittt... so can't you position ghosts pre-fight too? Cloaking ghosts and moving them ahead of the army is also pretty effective too. You can't warp in HTs from random pylons because they won't have energy for storm.
You can, but Terran doesn't have the luxury of hiding ghosts behind a wall of 9 range laser beams and a meatshield of chargelots and only bringing them forward when necessary. Getting off EMPs on templars is a lot harder than getting off storms on bio simply because of the superior range and health of a Protoss army. Pre-positioned cloaked ghosts can be good but if you're playing against a Protoss who likes to keep a lot of observers out like Parting, it's not going to accomplish much of anything.
I don't have an issue with storm itself btw, but the combo of storms and colossi in a single army is maddening.
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On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it.
All those devastating storms that go off and make the game look imbalanced...? How about use some actual EMPs, ghost cloak, snipe templar and observers? How many games in the past have been completely swung by EMPs but now terran aren't even using them?
The problem is that Ghosts cost a ton and if you waste money on buying Ghosts and suddenly they just have 2 ranged collosus then you are just fucked.
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On May 04 2012 04:37 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:34 s3rp wrote:On May 04 2012 04:30 Valikyr wrote:On May 04 2012 04:29 s3rp wrote:On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it. The problem with Ghosts is this. They make your army slower than the lategame Protoss army. If you need to move around alot don't take Ghosts with your army or they die . Its also very hard to EMP every Templar is the Toss knows what he's doing. If he positions his army well before the fight he will just move in the Templar when he specifically wants to Storm and in most cases you don't you every position he put his Templars because on the current maps theres way too much open space. Templars make the protoss army even slower >_< But the Korean Protoss started to position them pre-fight and random proxy Polyns and move in with them when needed . They don't run around with them unless they really need to because of it. Waittt... so can't you position ghosts pre-fight too? Cloaking ghosts and moving them ahead of the army is also pretty effective too. You can't warp in HTs from random pylons because they won't have energy for storm.
Like i edited HT's alone is not the problem. It gets dicey when Colossi hit the field too . If Vikings wouldn't suck as much as they do against anything that isn't Air this wouldn't be a problem.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 04 2012 04:40 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it.
All those devastating storms that go off and make the game look imbalanced...? How about use some actual EMPs, ghost cloak, snipe templar and observers? How many games in the past have been completely swung by EMPs but now terran aren't even using them? The problem is that Ghosts cost a ton and if you waste money on buying Ghosts and suddenly they just have 2 ranged collosus then you are just fucked.
Yeah, and scouting is so difficult for terran XD
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I must admit Squirtle and Taeja kind of gave gave the Ro8 at least a non terrible game with that epic game 3 ;p
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On May 04 2012 04:41 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:40 NexUmbra wrote:On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it.
All those devastating storms that go off and make the game look imbalanced...? How about use some actual EMPs, ghost cloak, snipe templar and observers? How many games in the past have been completely swung by EMPs but now terran aren't even using them? The problem is that Ghosts cost a ton and if you waste money on buying Ghosts and suddenly they just have 2 ranged collosus then you are just fucked. Yeah, and scouting is so difficult for terran XD
It is. It's a crapshoot when you scan the Protoss =/
*scans main and see's only three gateways* Hmmmmm... does he have 2 forges/citadel at his natural, dt, colossus or 6 gating? Or maybe took a quick third. Sigh 
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I agree. Last year Protoss deathballs would decimate in 10 seconds due to carpet EMPS. I dunno why Terrans have stopped building ghosts. Parting takes risk by flanking with templars.. why cant terrans do the same? At least if a ghost is spotted it can cloak or beefy enough to tank. Templars cant fight back or forced to use storm on a lone marine if spotted.
Top Toss is just playing better than Top Terrans right now.
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On May 04 2012 04:44 YoiChiBow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:41 Beyonder wrote:On May 04 2012 04:40 NexUmbra wrote:On May 04 2012 04:24 Heavenlee wrote:
So many complaints about storms lately...yet so few terrans are even using ghosts effectively nowadays. A lot of them aren't even bothering to build them, as if the EMP radius nerf somehow made them useless. It's been widely known that there is a major AOE battle between ghosts and high templar but terrans are losing it constantly, for no reason. Ghost v Templar is not imbalanced in either favor, it comes down to skill, but in recent months terrans just haven't been doing it.
All those devastating storms that go off and make the game look imbalanced...? How about use some actual EMPs, ghost cloak, snipe templar and observers? How many games in the past have been completely swung by EMPs but now terran aren't even using them? The problem is that Ghosts cost a ton and if you waste money on buying Ghosts and suddenly they just have 2 ranged collosus then you are just fucked. Yeah, and scouting is so difficult for terran XD It is. It's a crapshoot when you scan the Protoss =/ *scans main and see's only three gateways* Hmmmmm... does he have 2 forges/citadel at his natural, dt, colossus or 6 gating? Or maybe took a quick third. Sigh
Protip #1: Send an scv to check for thirds
Protip#2: If you burned your scan, send an scv into their nat to see their unit comp
Protip#3: A more effective scout is to drop a single stim marine in their base and run it around
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On May 04 2012 04:49 power-overwhelming wrote:
I agree. Last year Protoss deathballs would decimate in 10 seconds due to carpet EMPS. I dunno why Terrans have stopped building ghosts. Parting takes risk by flanking with templars.. why cant terrans do the same? At least if a ghost is spotted it can cloak or beefy enough to tank. Templars cant fight back or forced to use storm on a lone marine if spotted.
Top Toss is just playing better than Top Terrans right now.
Last year Protoss didn't have upgrade buff, and ghost didn't get nerf that badly. So I'm kinda hope they'd bring back the EMP radius or at least make it a lil bit bigger. Or may be make terran upgrade their units a bit easier.
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EPT
