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On May 04 2012 04:04 vnlegend wrote:
I lol'ed at the first game. Failed 4 gate. Gets contained, bunkers, tanks, zealots clumped and get EMP'ed going down the ramp, equal supplies, still wins by a mile.
When Thorzain won 1 game with Thors, they were insta-nerfed. Now Protosses are slaughtering everyone left and right, nothing.
This is so true.
Go 4 gate into expand. If you manage to get some scv kills (which you will because terran has to pull 7-10 scvs to defend) you have pretty much negated the advantage of mules. Protoss can then chronoboost probes and pull ahead in economy. When the second nexus kicks in chronoboost effectively means that they can make 3 probes in the same time as you make 2 scvs.
Mods, I know that the user was warned for the post, so I want to point out that this is not balance whine.
Im just exposing the effect of the game mechanics. For all I care this says nothing about balance. The existence of protoss strategies like this might just have the effect that terrans dont go 1 rax expand on certain maps.
Imbalanced or not, I find it to be poor game design and not very fair.
Chronoboost and larvae inject makes preassure builds incredibly strong. Roach ling preassure vs terran is even better since this can create a situation where zerg can drone insanely heavy.
Blizzard has also said that they only balance for the very top level of games. Thorzains game was the only high level game featuring mass Thor pushes at that time, so it is a fair assumption that this game that caused the thor buff to be reverted.
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On May 04 2012 05:33 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 05:17 TeeTS wrote:On May 03 2012 23:03 sc2holar wrote:On May 03 2012 22:38 Douillos wrote:On May 03 2012 22:32 sc2holar wrote:On May 03 2012 22:29 Douillos wrote:On May 03 2012 22:27 sc2holar wrote:On May 03 2012 22:22 Douillos wrote:On May 03 2012 22:13 Doublemint wrote:On May 03 2012 22:07 LeLfe wrote:
[quote]
pretty funny considering how Zerg and Toss have been crying for months What´s also "funny", is that even Blizzard found it "funny" and tweaked the balance a bit - looks like the whining was not all that uncalled for. A bit?? Check how many nerfs terran has had... And im an ex Zerg who actually found it was too much even back then. And every single nerf was deserved. im an ex terran and even i found the terran dominance a little too much back then (or more like for the entire lifespan of SC2) Meh. Everything was deserved except the ghost nerfs. EMP radius + leaving enough energy for a storm is just stupid EMP is still strong. having a skill that takes out all sheilds and ALL energy (basicly cutting away half of every protoss units HP and making casters completley useless) in a huge area is just stupid. It doesnt take out all shields and energy. Thats the problem! EDIT: ok re-read... Well just compare to storm and feeback... Storm is an AoE DoT and it doesnt remove energy... Feedback is a singel target spell. EMP was way to powerful pre-nerf, it basicly made everything struck in its AoE useless. Give me a solid argument for why it should take away all sheilds and all energy. thats potentially like 200 instant damage against units with high sheild HP. compared to Storm that does 80 damage over time. You can dodge a storm and negate most of the damage. EMP is instant, wich means that once you where hit (and there was no way for slow units like templars to dodge it either) you were screwed. you don't get the point. EMP doesn't kill anything. you don't get zealots (the most build unit protoss compositions nowadays) below 2/3 of their HP with EMP. now look at storm vs terran: marine stim takes them down to 45 hp, 2ticks from a storm (which are the average ticks if you react quickly and pull them out) and voila 5 hp left, WOW. Now lets look at our beafy marauders: stim takes them down to 100hp, 2 ticks from a storm and voila: down to 60hp that's 50% and much lower than our zealots that got hit by an EMP. And OMG you can cast a 2nd storm on them and it does actually do the same amount of dmg to them. 5 EMPs don't kill a zealot as 100 won't. And that's the big point, why storm is much more relevant in those battles and overall in the matchup than is EMP. You're right man! Storm OP. it should need to be researched and cost twice as much to get than stim--also, it should be in the archives. That will balance it 
Storm is not the problem combining it with easy as hell to use and still deadly Colossi is. Vikings probably need a buff in their groundform to make it at least decent . +1-2 Damage in Groundform / +1 Armor / give them factory upgrades in ground form or at least make them as fast on the ground as they are in the air. Its sucks to be forced to build Vikings . Corrupters later at least can become Broodlords , Vikings still suck against anything that isn't air even with good upgrades.
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Supernova's SCVs were not on auto repair for a good amount of time in game 3!
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On May 04 2012 05:43 AnDa1120 wrote:
Supernova's SCVs were not on auto repair for a good amount of time in game 3!
not on auto-repair ever*
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On May 04 2012 04:04 vnlegend wrote:
I lol'ed at the first game. Failed 4 gate. Gets contained, bunkers, tanks, zealots clumped and get EMP'ed going down the ramp, equal supplies, still wins by a mile.
When Thorzain won 1 game with Thors, they were insta-nerfed. Now Protosses are slaughtering everyone left and right, nothing.
What are you talking about? Remember how Terran was OP for almost a year? Now you're saying P is OP the first time they ever got far in a tourney en masse. Besides, there haven't been huge buffs/nerfs regarding PvT lately. What, in your opinion, has suddenly changed?
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On May 04 2012 05:18 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:49 power-overwhelming wrote:
I agree. Last year Protoss deathballs would decimate in 10 seconds due to carpet EMPS. I dunno why Terrans have stopped building ghosts. Parting takes risk by flanking with templars.. why cant terrans do the same? At least if a ghost is spotted it can cloak or beefy enough to tank. Templars cant fight back or forced to use storm on a lone marine if spotted.
Top Toss is just playing better than Top Terrans right now. Ok so let's use our head and think for a sec. Which is more likely, the 32424 godly Terrans that's been dominating most of last year, all suddenly somehow became stupid and stopped using a strategy that has been working all along, OR just maybe they all have tried it and realized it doesn't actually work?
Ok, let's use our head and think for a sec. Maybe, just maybe, not all of last year's 32424 Terrans were that godly, and now that a bunch of up and coming Protosses developed a new style that, combined with the EMP nerf, shook up the meta game so that T is actually in the position to have to innovate to react to the development in the matchup.
I'm sure the percentage of GSL Terrans that are actually that good will soon recover.
Seriously though, give it a few weeks and we will see T develop a new style or at least adapt little tricks to deal with the Templar-heavy P meta game. In a few months, all the T whine right now will look as silly as the 111 whine from a few months does look silly now.
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Protoss games are boring to watch in general hope HOTS fixes this with the oracle. The only exciting unit for protoss right now is blink stalkers.
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Squirtle pulling out the hydro pumps.
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>Terran QQ
>Protoss telling terrans to quit whining and wait for new style
>Terran uses variation of 1-1-1 as actual strategy
>Protoss calls OP, not actual strategy.
we get it, tvp is fucking gay for both sides. All the same, absolutely awesome for the handsome hero
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You know... the more I look at the banner on the OP the more certain I am that Liquid needs jerseys. I mean, the t-shirts just arn't cutting it any more and when you've got 2 players in the round of 8 it's time to start taking yourself a bit more seriously.
Not really a big deal I guess, but the jackets of the other teams are far more badass and reminds you that this is more than just a game to these players.
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On May 04 2012 06:22 TheDougler wrote:
You know... the more I look at the banner on the OP the more certain I am that Liquid needs jerseys. I mean, the t-shirts just arn't cutting it any more and when you've got 2 players in the round of 8 it's time to start taking yourself a bit more seriously.
Not really a big deal I guess, but the jackets of the other teams are far more badass and reminds you that this is more than just a game to these players.
I was thinking the exact same thing when I was watching last night. They definitely need something that looks better than T-shirts, it just doesn't look as professional (or cool for that matter ^.^). Kind of the same reason tastosis prefer to wear blazers with a shirt and tie, and not blazers with a T-shirt underneath like I have seen some people do. It just portrays a certain level of prestige.
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On May 04 2012 05:39 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:04 vnlegend wrote:
I lol'ed at the first game. Failed 4 gate. Gets contained, bunkers, tanks, zealots clumped and get EMP'ed going down the ramp, equal supplies, still wins by a mile.
When Thorzain won 1 game with Thors, they were insta-nerfed. Now Protosses are slaughtering everyone left and right, nothing.
This is so true. Go 4 gate into expand. If you manage to get some scv kills (which you will because terran has to pull 7-10 scvs to defend) you have pretty much negated the advantage of mules. Protoss can then chronoboost probes and pull ahead in economy. When the second nexus kicks in chronoboost effectively means that they can make 3 probes in the same time as you make 2 scvs. Mods, I know that the user was warned for the post, so I want to point out that this is not balance whine. Im just exposing the effect of the game mechanics. For all I care this says nothing about balance. The existence of protoss strategies like this might just have the effect that terrans dont go 1 rax expand on certain maps. Imbalanced or not, I find it to be poor game design and not very fair. Chronoboost and larvae inject makes preassure builds incredibly strong. Roach ling preassure vs terran is even better since this can create a situation where zerg can drone insanely heavy. Blizzard has also said that they only balance for the very top level of games. Thorzains game was the only high level game featuring mass Thor pushes at that time, so it is a fair assumption that this game that caused the thor buff to be reverted.
Terran versatility and the fact that they can hide anything they do essentially makes Terran all ins very strong. It goes every way dude. And you should have more faith in the game balancers. They can see when something is unbeatable and often give things time to see if a metagame shift will happen to deal with it. The 1/1/1 for example was allowed to exist for a long time and they did nothing about it. Once they finally decided that Protoss couldn't deal with it they made a small change and it fixed things. They have said they are watching late game Protoss to make sure it isn't to strong just as they said they are watching early game Terran to ensure the same thing.
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On May 04 2012 05:49 emis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:04 vnlegend wrote:
I lol'ed at the first game. Failed 4 gate. Gets contained, bunkers, tanks, zealots clumped and get EMP'ed going down the ramp, equal supplies, still wins by a mile.
When Thorzain won 1 game with Thors, they were insta-nerfed. Now Protosses are slaughtering everyone left and right, nothing. What are you talking about? Remember how Terran was OP for almost a year? Now you're saying P is OP the first time they ever got far in a tourney en masse. Besides, there haven't been huge buffs/nerfs regarding PvT lately. What, in your opinion, has suddenly changed?
Toss players stopped doing stupid builds.
Quoted from David Kim
We are concerned that protoss players seem to be having a slower start compared to zerg or terran players. For quite some time after StarCraft II was released, especially at the highest levels of professional play, protoss players were primarily only focusing on 1 base or 2 base warp gate all-ins. It was only after we toned down these builds that protoss players really started exploring their various tech options in the same way that the other two races have been doing for a long time.
I mean Terrans didn't use ghost vs Zerg till Zerg figured out builds that got to hive safely (and required ghosts to deal with hivetech bl infestor). Toss never needed to innovate cause they were already so fucking strong.
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On May 04 2012 06:35 slipperhat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:22 TheDougler wrote:
You know... the more I look at the banner on the OP the more certain I am that Liquid needs jerseys. I mean, the t-shirts just arn't cutting it any more and when you've got 2 players in the round of 8 it's time to start taking yourself a bit more seriously.
Not really a big deal I guess, but the jackets of the other teams are far more badass and reminds you that this is more than just a game to these players. I was thinking the exact same thing when I was watching last night. They definitely need something that looks better than T-shirts, it just doesn't look as professional (or cool for that matter ^.^). Kind of the same reason tastosis prefer to wear blazers with a shirt and tie, and not blazers with a T-shirt underneath like I have seen some people do. It just portrays a certain level of prestige.
Also they will be severely screwed when it comes to wintertime ;p
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On May 04 2012 05:49 emis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:04 vnlegend wrote:
I lol'ed at the first game. Failed 4 gate. Gets contained, bunkers, tanks, zealots clumped and get EMP'ed going down the ramp, equal supplies, still wins by a mile.
When Thorzain won 1 game with Thors, they were insta-nerfed. Now Protosses are slaughtering everyone left and right, nothing. What are you talking about? Remember how Terran was OP for almost a year? Now you're saying P is OP the first time they ever got far in a tourney en masse. Besides, there haven't been huge buffs/nerfs regarding PvT lately. What, in your opinion, has suddenly changed?
Protosses have been getting more and more buffs while Terran keeps getting nerfed. And protosses are realizing how superior zealot/HT/archon is to colossus which used to be the norm.
I actually don't understand how anyone thinks it's ok that Supernova had tanks, bunkers, a lot of bio, and spot on EMPs, yet Hero wins by a complete landslide and just counterattacks to win the game. Supernova didn't even do anything risky.
Same thing with Taeja vs Squirtle game 2, Squirtle just runs up into the most disadvantageous position possible and wins by a huge margin.
I laughed so hard when Artosis said that if Squirtle won with the 4 gate robo in game 3, even he would have to admit the whole matchup is imbalanced. Taeja then holds it off with almost no damage and still loses.
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Called both games correctly. Really looks like we will finally see a PvP at a GSL finals. Can't see how MVP will beat Parting and Hero is looking really strong and I can see him taking out Squirtle.
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Easiest Liquibets of the entire season. Missed the matches though 
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On May 04 2012 07:07 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 05:49 emis wrote:On May 04 2012 04:04 vnlegend wrote:
I lol'ed at the first game. Failed 4 gate. Gets contained, bunkers, tanks, zealots clumped and get EMP'ed going down the ramp, equal supplies, still wins by a mile.
When Thorzain won 1 game with Thors, they were insta-nerfed. Now Protosses are slaughtering everyone left and right, nothing. What are you talking about? Remember how Terran was OP for almost a year? Now you're saying P is OP the first time they ever got far in a tourney en masse. Besides, there haven't been huge buffs/nerfs regarding PvT lately. What, in your opinion, has suddenly changed? Protosses have been getting more and more buffs while Terran keeps getting nerfed. And protosses are realizing how superior zealot/HT/archon is to colossus which used to be the norm. I actually don't understand how anyone thinks it's ok that Supernova had tanks, bunkers, a lot of bio, and spot on EMPs, yet Hero wins by a complete landslide and just counterattacks to win the game. Supernova didn't even do anything risky. Same thing with Taeja vs Squirtle game 2, Squirtle just runs up into the most disadvantageous position possible and wins by a huge margin. I laughed so hard when Artosis said that if Squirtle won with the 4 gate robo in game 3, even he would have to admit the whole matchup is imbalanced. Taeja then holds it off with almost no damage and still loses.
Sorry but supernova lost because he chose to do a 2 base all in that missed its timing and was too little of everything. Holding off a 4 gate doesnt mean you do whatever you want. Had he a stronger bio place good upgrades or made 3rd orbital he wouldve been fine.
His contain was actually a committed one. You cant run with siege tanks. Supernova chose the wrong response while also executing it poorly
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I'm going to try and avoid any balance comments and just would like to say:
Isn't it cool that all the Protoss in Ro8 all have different styles? Each and every game was played differently, to different effects. I think it's exciting to see Protoss finally break away from their shell and experiment and actually win. Such a refreshing change from the old MC-esque style. Protoss has come a long way. I don't know about anyone else but it's somewhat refreshing and I won't be upset if it's a PvP finals. Lawwwwd knows it's been a long time coming haha.
Goodluck to MVP though, 4th champ inc?!
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On May 04 2012 07:07 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 05:49 emis wrote:On May 04 2012 04:04 vnlegend wrote:
I lol'ed at the first game. Failed 4 gate. Gets contained, bunkers, tanks, zealots clumped and get EMP'ed going down the ramp, equal supplies, still wins by a mile.
When Thorzain won 1 game with Thors, they were insta-nerfed. Now Protosses are slaughtering everyone left and right, nothing. What are you talking about? Remember how Terran was OP for almost a year? Now you're saying P is OP the first time they ever got far in a tourney en masse. Besides, there haven't been huge buffs/nerfs regarding PvT lately. What, in your opinion, has suddenly changed? Protosses have been getting more and more buffs while Terran keeps getting nerfed. And protosses are realizing how superior zealot/HT/archon is to colossus which used to be the norm. I actually don't understand how anyone thinks it's ok that Supernova had tanks, bunkers, a lot of bio, and spot on EMPs, yet Hero wins by a complete landslide and just counterattacks to win the game. Supernova didn't even do anything risky. Same thing with Taeja vs Squirtle game 2, Squirtle just runs up into the most disadvantageous position possible and wins by a huge margin. I laughed so hard when Artosis said that if Squirtle won with the 4 gate robo in game 3, even he would have to admit the whole matchup is imbalanced. Taeja then holds it off with almost no damage and still loses.
1. SuperNoVa did do something risky: He did a terrible contain. Bunkers are shit if they're not being repaired because they get torn apart so quickly its basically just a waste of minerals.
2. Also, he made tanks. Tanks might be good vs colossus but when you haven't even seen any colossus being produced, you run the risk of being overrun by chargelots, which is what happened.
3. The storms were good in that battle, they hit everything they needed to hit.
4. If someone fails a rush, that doesn't mean you can just make random units and go win easily. You still have to play smart, which is what SuperNoVa failed at doing.
5. Hero also had 2 (maybe 1? but im pretty sure 2) armor upgrade when that fight started.
6. About the Squirtle game 2, You forgot the part where Squirtle killed 25+ scvs, making it impossible for Taeja to get ghosts out in time. Squirtle did not have to attack cost efficiently to win, but the bad micro from Taeja made it easier (running in and out of storms, randomly it seems)
7. In game 3 Taeja held it off but Squirtle also lost nothing and started his expand. It was pretty even at this point.
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EPT
