• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:09
CEST 23:09
KST 06:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic2Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S:Season 2 - RO8 - Group A RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Wizard Hilton Cybertech Crypto Recovery: Proven Re
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 27681 users

[Code S] "The Chosen 8" 2012 GSL Season 2 Day 1 - Page 203

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
Post a Reply
Prev 1 201 202 203 204 Next
mambar
Profile Joined February 2012
United States841 Posts
May 03 2012 01:14 GMT
#4041
On May 03 2012 08:13 RagequitBM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 07:33 power-overwhelming wrote:
It's quite funny to watch this whole fanboy wars. It's basically Naniwa fans vs MVP fans + Naniwa haters. Being neutral let me lay down some truths

1. Naniwa has always been so weak to adjust to cheeses/all-ins like when Leenock destroyed him in providence.

2. MVP has always all-inned cheesed vs protoss.

I do find it a bit annoying the bias though. When MC wins 2 basing it's automatically an all in. But when MVP wins bitbybit it's genius strategy lol.


The reason MVP all in'd was probably because his wrists were starting to hurt so he knew if he didnt start going all in he would lose simply due to wrist pain. So it's all good.


"You relied heavily on strategy not once but twice. Was it because of your wrist? Some other problem?

[Mvp]: I am of the opinion that you should be punished for risky play. If you get greedy with me, you will get punished. Naniwa is a player who has a risky early game and gets a good economy. Those strategies were a response to that."
Valikyr
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2653 Posts
May 03 2012 01:20 GMT
#4042
On May 03 2012 08:13 RagequitBM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 07:33 power-overwhelming wrote:
It's quite funny to watch this whole fanboy wars. It's basically Naniwa fans vs MVP fans + Naniwa haters. Being neutral let me lay down some truths

1. Naniwa has always been so weak to adjust to cheeses/all-ins like when Leenock destroyed him in providence.

2. MVP has always all-inned cheesed vs protoss.

I do find it a bit annoying the bias though. When MC wins 2 basing it's automatically an all in. But when MVP wins bitbybit it's genius strategy lol.



It's actually not like that at all.
MC 2 base all-ins "Amazing timing, unit control"
MVP allins "Genius strategy, amazing unit control"

The reason MVP all in'd was probably because his wrists were starting to hurt so he knew if he didnt start going all in he would lose simply due to wrist pain. So it's all good.

I can almost guarantee that MVP allready planned every game before going in to the series. Just fyi. People don't go into an important series and improvise from game to game.
tranmillitary
Profile Joined August 2011
210 Posts
May 03 2012 01:52 GMT
#4043
People are crying over split milk. Naniwa deserves to lose if he plays so greedy. He should say no rush 15 mins next time, as most swedes here want. anyone hittin naniwa before 9 mins is an automatic cheeser.

Why don't someone let me go double nexus and wait til i build my collos/templer deathball, and we'll play. That's like saying lets give zerg 15 BL, 10 infestors, 5 queens, and mass banes before you attack.

Naniwa plays greedy as hell and he deserves to be punished. you guys seem to want everyone to go deathball vs deathball. and even then, people complain that deathball is boring. no one is ever satisfied. Nani went nexus first one game, you want MVP to let him build up a huge army before attacking??? people are seriously in need of help here
ColA-
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada66 Posts
May 03 2012 01:55 GMT
#4044
NOOOOO + Show Spoiler +
NANIWA LOST TT
Nerf probes, they carry to many minerals.
zEnVy
Profile Joined June 2011
United States446 Posts
May 03 2012 02:07 GMT
#4045
On May 03 2012 10:52 tranmillitary wrote:
People are crying over split milk. Naniwa deserves to lose if he plays so greedy. He should say no rush 15 mins next time, as most swedes here want. anyone hittin naniwa before 9 mins is an automatic cheeser.

Why don't someone let me go double nexus and wait til i build my collos/templer deathball, and we'll play. That's like saying lets give zerg 15 BL, 10 infestors, 5 queens, and mass banes before you attack.

Naniwa plays greedy as hell and he deserves to be punished. you guys seem to want everyone to go deathball vs deathball. and even then, people complain that deathball is boring. no one is ever satisfied. Nani went nexus first one game, you want MVP to let him build up a huge army before attacking??? people are seriously in need of help here


There is a massive difference between attacking early and applying pressure and proxying your buildings halfway across the map and pulling all your SCVs.

coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
May 03 2012 02:16 GMT
#4046
On May 03 2012 11:07 zEnVy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 10:52 tranmillitary wrote:
People are crying over split milk. Naniwa deserves to lose if he plays so greedy. He should say no rush 15 mins next time, as most swedes here want. anyone hittin naniwa before 9 mins is an automatic cheeser.

Why don't someone let me go double nexus and wait til i build my collos/templer deathball, and we'll play. That's like saying lets give zerg 15 BL, 10 infestors, 5 queens, and mass banes before you attack.

Naniwa plays greedy as hell and he deserves to be punished. you guys seem to want everyone to go deathball vs deathball. and even then, people complain that deathball is boring. no one is ever satisfied. Nani went nexus first one game, you want MVP to let him build up a huge army before attacking??? people are seriously in need of help here


There is a massive difference between attacking early and applying pressure and proxying your buildings halfway across the map and pulling all your SCVs.


But why is one more honorable than the other? Naniwa would been in a dominant position if he had held off the cheese and he had his chances. None of the strategies he faced were auto-losses.
Talack
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada2742 Posts
May 03 2012 02:17 GMT
#4047
The last game was a huge disapointment. Naniwa lost that game far more than MVP having a clever strategy or anything.

Naniwa had everything he needed to absolutely crush that attack but he didn't. MVP had great strategies for the other games, except the 3rd where he did one of the worst attacks i've ever seen haha.
tranmillitary
Profile Joined August 2011
210 Posts
May 03 2012 02:23 GMT
#4048
On May 03 2012 11:07 zEnVy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 10:52 tranmillitary wrote:
People are crying over split milk. Naniwa deserves to lose if he plays so greedy. He should say no rush 15 mins next time, as most swedes here want. anyone hittin naniwa before 9 mins is an automatic cheeser.

Why don't someone let me go double nexus and wait til i build my collos/templer deathball, and we'll play. That's like saying lets give zerg 15 BL, 10 infestors, 5 queens, and mass banes before you attack.

Naniwa plays greedy as hell and he deserves to be punished. you guys seem to want everyone to go deathball vs deathball. and even then, people complain that deathball is boring. no one is ever satisfied. Nani went nexus first one game, you want MVP to let him build up a huge army before attacking??? people are seriously in need of help here


There is a massive difference between attacking early and applying pressure and proxying your buildings halfway across the map and pulling all your SCVs.



whats the difference. he didn't proxy the first time, and won, than he proxy and won. Tell me the difference??? you're so smart right??

if naniwa went normal gate/gas/pylon... than scouted and saw that proxy , add another gate or forge, he would of won. parting/mc/oz/genuis would of laughed at that. Only naniwa and his super greedy builds would lose. if i see someone tryin that on ladder vs me, i'll laugh. You think it's easy to do what mvp did?? MVP is an outlier, he's one of the few who can do it.
Kaesebrot
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany128 Posts
May 03 2012 02:24 GMT
#4049
On May 02 2012 08:45 Kaesebrot wrote:
I hope MVP will ROFLSTOMP Nani and end his streak of Luck!


HAHA I knew it!
Ldawg
Profile Joined December 2011
United States328 Posts
May 03 2012 02:46 GMT
#4050
I am not certain if anyone shares the same sentiment regarding cheese, but what I really dislike seeing often in series is "early cheese" (since there is not clearcut definition) such as proxy rax, early pools, four gates, etc. It does not matter what race is doing it or who the player is, I instantly just writhe on the inside. "Cheeses" such as 7 gates, delayed banshees (which I have seen obliterate protoss going for early 3 base), etc. do not really annoy me.

Above all, the fact that I can look at the VOD time for a given PvT and make an almost consistently correct prediction on who won based on the duration of the VOD, kills me. I find myself doing it almost subconsciously in every PvT I see on GOM and did it starting with game 2 of Naniwa vs MVP. It's frustrating as hell because before I even know it, I've already seen the duration of the VOD and essentially spoiled it for myself. Game 2 less than 15 minutes? MVP wins, and I was correct, Game 3 somewhere around 15 minutes? Expected Nani to win and he did. Same for game 4, VOD under 15 minutes, expected MVP to win and he did.

It most certainly is a complex balancing issue, but I hope either the meta game or Blizzard fixes this almost perfect correlation between game duration and which race wins in PvT.
"Terran so...ice cream!" MKP/MC at HSC IV
beatitudes
Profile Joined January 2012
United States167 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 03:38:11
May 03 2012 03:27 GMT
#4051
remember when naniwa 2 gate proxy rushed nestea? seems like a lot of you don't remember

on top of this i see so many people complaining about cheese/2base timing. if you do remember game one wasnt about mvps 2 base timing it was about naniwas. he was the one who was doing a 2 base 3 colo timing that failed so he only then took a third base. but people are making mvp out to be the bad guy here.
<3
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
May 03 2012 03:44 GMT
#4052
lol. Actually, I think MVP has this gasless triple expand before barracks into BCs/ravens/ghosts build. But for some reason, his practice partners always 'cheese' him by making zealots, stalkers and sentries and just killing him. So he just said, screw it, all Protoss are cheesers...
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
May 03 2012 03:48 GMT
#4053
GJ Naniwa. Glad he got so far, very impressive.
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
snakeeyez
Profile Joined May 2011
United States1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 04:16:42
May 03 2012 04:07 GMT
#4054
Yeah I mean mvp noticed Naniwa was playing greedy which he does. Why would he not play to win? That is why smart players like mvp mix up there builds more and the more common ones are generally safer against cheese like that. The cheeses mvp did were very well executed I mean Naniwa could have won that last game just as easily as mvp and Naniwa made more mistakes so the better player won that map. Mvp had the advantage of being unpredictable I mean what you practice for mvp does so many builds you cant just say he triple expands on these certain maps or anything and it plays to his advantage.
mvp could easily play macro games if he wanted I hate when people use excuses like his wrist hurts. I mean he still practices and plays enough to be competitive and its his job no matter what it feels like you play through it or go home. I played football game and practices with broken hand in cast. You dont baby out with excuse.
Aeroplaneoverthesea
Profile Joined April 2012
United Kingdom1977 Posts
May 03 2012 04:17 GMT
#4055
On May 03 2012 11:46 Ldawg wrote:
I am not certain if anyone shares the same sentiment regarding cheese, but what I really dislike seeing often in series is "early cheese" (since there is not clearcut definition) such as proxy rax, early pools, four gates, etc. It does not matter what race is doing it or who the player is, I instantly just writhe on the inside. "Cheeses" such as 7 gates, delayed banshees (which I have seen obliterate protoss going for early 3 base), etc. do not really annoy me.

Above all, the fact that I can look at the VOD time for a given PvT and make an almost consistently correct prediction on who won based on the duration of the VOD, kills me. I find myself doing it almost subconsciously in every PvT I see on GOM and did it starting with game 2 of Naniwa vs MVP. It's frustrating as hell because before I even know it, I've already seen the duration of the VOD and essentially spoiled it for myself. Game 2 less than 15 minutes? MVP wins, and I was correct, Game 3 somewhere around 15 minutes? Expected Nani to win and he did. Same for game 4, VOD under 15 minutes, expected MVP to win and he did.

It most certainly is a complex balancing issue, but I hope either the meta game or Blizzard fixes this almost perfect correlation between game duration and which race wins in PvT.


Stop balance whining. Naniwa is a greedy player who is terrible at holding off cheese. He loses to cheese vs Terran/Zerg so much it's hilarious because he's so unbelievably greedy. With $50,000 on the line Mvp is more than happy to profit from Naniwa's lack of common sense and take free wins.

Perhaps one day Naniwa (and more other foreigners) will understand that winning is winning and stop pretending the GSL is some EU tournament where everyone is playing 20 minute no rush. Maybe then he will finally win a knockout game in the GSL.
Ausfailia
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia123 Posts
May 03 2012 05:13 GMT
#4056
On May 03 2012 11:46 Ldawg wrote:
I am not certain if anyone shares the same sentiment regarding cheese, but what I really dislike seeing often in series is "early cheese" (since there is not clearcut definition) such as proxy rax, early pools, four gates, etc. It does not matter what race is doing it or who the player is, I instantly just writhe on the inside. "Cheeses" such as 7 gates, delayed banshees (which I have seen obliterate protoss going for early 3 base), etc. do not really annoy me.

Above all, the fact that I can look at the VOD time for a given PvT and make an almost consistently correct prediction on who won based on the duration of the VOD, kills me. I find myself doing it almost subconsciously in every PvT I see on GOM and did it starting with game 2 of Naniwa vs MVP. It's frustrating as hell because before I even know it, I've already seen the duration of the VOD and essentially spoiled it for myself. Game 2 less than 15 minutes? MVP wins, and I was correct, Game 3 somewhere around 15 minutes? Expected Nani to win and he did. Same for game 4, VOD under 15 minutes, expected MVP to win and he did.

It most certainly is a complex balancing issue, but I hope either the meta game or Blizzard fixes this almost perfect correlation between game duration and which race wins in PvT.



How thinly do you want to veil your balance whining?
Jisall
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2054 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 05:29:20
May 03 2012 05:19 GMT
#4057
Holy crap 200 pages before the event even starts. This is going to be one hell of a night.


Edit: Ooops. Thanks

On May 03 2012 14:25 Kogutz wrote:

Wrong topic bro. This one already happened.



Im so happy that Naniwa is out and PartinG crushed Oz.
YAAY!

Monk: Because being a badass is more fun then playing a dude wearing a scarf.. ... Ite fuck it, Witch Doctor cuz I like killing stuff in a timely mannor.
Kogutz
Profile Joined September 2011
Brazil117 Posts
May 03 2012 05:25 GMT
#4058
On May 03 2012 14:19 Jisall wrote:
Holy crap 200 pages before the event even starts. This is going to be one hell of a night.


Wrong topic bro. This one already happened.



Im so happy that Naniwa is out and PartinG crushed Oz.
YAAY!
masterchip27
Profile Joined April 2011
United States284 Posts
May 03 2012 07:42 GMT
#4059
On May 03 2012 07:10 anrimayu wrote:
Cheese me once, shame on you. Cheese me... you cant get cheesed again.


I lol'd
Ldawg
Profile Joined December 2011
United States328 Posts
May 03 2012 08:14 GMT
#4060
On May 03 2012 13:17 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 11:46 Ldawg wrote:
I am not certain if anyone shares the same sentiment regarding cheese, but what I really dislike seeing often in series is "early cheese" (since there is not clearcut definition) such as proxy rax, early pools, four gates, etc. It does not matter what race is doing it or who the player is, I instantly just writhe on the inside. "Cheeses" such as 7 gates, delayed banshees (which I have seen obliterate protoss going for early 3 base), etc. do not really annoy me.

Above all, the fact that I can look at the VOD time for a given PvT and make an almost consistently correct prediction on who won based on the duration of the VOD, kills me. I find myself doing it almost subconsciously in every PvT I see on GOM and did it starting with game 2 of Naniwa vs MVP. It's frustrating as hell because before I even know it, I've already seen the duration of the VOD and essentially spoiled it for myself. Game 2 less than 15 minutes? MVP wins, and I was correct, Game 3 somewhere around 15 minutes? Expected Nani to win and he did. Same for game 4, VOD under 15 minutes, expected MVP to win and he did.

It most certainly is a complex balancing issue, but I hope either the meta game or Blizzard fixes this almost perfect correlation between game duration and which race wins in PvT.


Stop balance whining. Naniwa is a greedy player who is terrible at holding off cheese. He loses to cheese vs Terran/Zerg so much it's hilarious because he's so unbelievably greedy. With $50,000 on the line Mvp is more than happy to profit from Naniwa's lack of common sense and take free wins.

Perhaps one day Naniwa (and more other foreigners) will understand that winning is winning and stop pretending the GSL is some EU tournament where everyone is playing 20 minute no rush. Maybe then he will finally win a knockout game in the GSL.


Nice blind, ignorant raging. Ignorant because if I am balance whining, which side am I on? If you will actually read my comments, you will understand that what I want to change is the relationship between length of game and which race wins in PvT. My "balancing" comment was in regards to this, not in reference to any unit of either race.
"Terran so...ice cream!" MKP/MC at HSC IV
Prev 1 201 202 203 204 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 51m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub199
UpATreeSC 143
ForJumy 68
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 4636
Calm 2412
Rain 1275
Mini 369
Dewaltoss 112
Soulkey 52
Aegong 35
TY 18
NaDa 10
Dota 2
capcasts110
NeuroSwarm59
Counter-Strike
Dendi1579
flusha602
Foxcn288
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu629
Khaldor174
Other Games
tarik_tv49500
gofns35587
summit1g5618
Grubby3841
FrodaN1031
shahzam476
mouzStarbuck292
markeloff158
ViBE10
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream5004
Other Games
BasetradeTV184
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 36
• davetesta23
• Reevou 2
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 41
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22051
League of Legends
• Doublelift3869
• Jankos2238
• TFBlade1487
Other Games
• imaqtpie1442
• Shiphtur365
Upcoming Events
Online Event
2h 51m
Replay Cast
4h 51m
GSL Code S
12h 21m
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
12h 51m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 13h
OSC
1d 15h
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
SOOP
2 days
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Cheesadelphia
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
GSL Code S
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
6 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.