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I look at TaeJa advancing and i'm like fuck yeah! Then I look at MKP dropping and i'm like goddamnit 
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On April 25 2012 22:55 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 22:52 vndods wrote:On April 25 2012 22:51 Proseat wrote:So TaeJa sent home DRG in Ro32 and now MKP in Ro16, wow. After MKP defeated TaeJa so easily in the second match, I did not expect this outcome. But I'm happy for Liquid having both their players -- who are new to Code S -- advance to Ro8 and thus be directly qualified for Code S next season. Now hoping for a Liquid to make the finals (will make even better when I'm there live in Seoul  ). Shame about MKP, but with such stacked favorites in Code S there will always be disappointment and sadness no matter who goes down. It's definitely good to see new blood being cycled in as well, so long as the old favorites will still be around. Anyways, I'm sure MKP will bounce right back into Code S winning his single Bo3 Code A match. Yeah, he has a great shot of immediately getting back into Code S. His opponent in Code A is either Yugioh/Lure He may be the King of Marines... but how will he fare against the King of Code A? I'm terrible. I'm only a fan of YuGiOh because of that title.
It looks like oGsLure (practiced with SuperNoVa, beat InCa) should not be underestimated either. But I'm fairly certain that MKP will take it.
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On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 22:39 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:31 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:30 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:25 vndods wrote:On April 25 2012 22:24 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:21 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:18 Megabuster123 wrote:
If Protoss wins this GSL I foresee a lot of Terran balance qq'ing. There already IS a lot of Terran balance qqing, if my ladder experience is anything to go by. I'd just like Blizzard to figure out a way to fix the problem Terran's had since beta with its early game being so much stronger than its late. Yeah, but now it's just regular QQ like every race goes through. But imagine every terran gets knocked out and we're left with PvP's in the Ro4? I don't want to be in the LR on that day. The thing is that Terran will still be OP in the eyes of the community xD. Terrans won't ever catch a break lol. I'm still pissed about the fact that it took Terrans something like a year after the game's release to figure out that BFH were really broken. That's why I'm not sympathizing with Terrans quite yet. I think there might be some answers the pros haven't dug out. You really shouldn't sympathize with anyone. Terrans will figure something out. Someone always does. There was, as far as I can tell, no way for Zerg to deal with 5 Rax Reaper. The way the build worked made it literally unstoppable. It was set up to perfectly defeat Zergling/Spine/Queen play, and if a Roach switch occurred, it was perfectly situated to handle that with Marauders. Prior to the NUMEROUS Reaper nerfs, there was no way for Zerg to properly handle that composition. When Terrans lost, it was due to their own bad micro, not because the Zerg was playing particularly well. There are cases of complete and utter imbalance in this game, and that was one of them. I don't think any race right now is in the position Zerg was in back then, but if that ever turned out to be the case, I would sympathize with the race caught in such a horrible position. Sometimes, balance patches DO need to come through. To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though. People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game.
Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches.
The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem.
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On April 25 2012 23:00 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:39 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:31 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:30 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:25 vndods wrote:On April 25 2012 22:24 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:21 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:18 Megabuster123 wrote:
If Protoss wins this GSL I foresee a lot of Terran balance qq'ing. There already IS a lot of Terran balance qqing, if my ladder experience is anything to go by. I'd just like Blizzard to figure out a way to fix the problem Terran's had since beta with its early game being so much stronger than its late. Yeah, but now it's just regular QQ like every race goes through. But imagine every terran gets knocked out and we're left with PvP's in the Ro4? I don't want to be in the LR on that day. The thing is that Terran will still be OP in the eyes of the community xD. Terrans won't ever catch a break lol. I'm still pissed about the fact that it took Terrans something like a year after the game's release to figure out that BFH were really broken. That's why I'm not sympathizing with Terrans quite yet. I think there might be some answers the pros haven't dug out. You really shouldn't sympathize with anyone. Terrans will figure something out. Someone always does. There was, as far as I can tell, no way for Zerg to deal with 5 Rax Reaper. The way the build worked made it literally unstoppable. It was set up to perfectly defeat Zergling/Spine/Queen play, and if a Roach switch occurred, it was perfectly situated to handle that with Marauders. Prior to the NUMEROUS Reaper nerfs, there was no way for Zerg to properly handle that composition. When Terrans lost, it was due to their own bad micro, not because the Zerg was playing particularly well. There are cases of complete and utter imbalance in this game, and that was one of them. I don't think any race right now is in the position Zerg was in back then, but if that ever turned out to be the case, I would sympathize with the race caught in such a horrible position. Sometimes, balance patches DO need to come through. To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though. People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game. Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches. The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem.
I fully understand what you're saying. But I'm just hesitant to immediately accept it as fact given how much of this game can just change without balance patches.
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On April 25 2012 23:03 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:00 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:39 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:31 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:30 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:25 vndods wrote:On April 25 2012 22:24 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:21 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:18 Megabuster123 wrote:
If Protoss wins this GSL I foresee a lot of Terran balance qq'ing. There already IS a lot of Terran balance qqing, if my ladder experience is anything to go by. I'd just like Blizzard to figure out a way to fix the problem Terran's had since beta with its early game being so much stronger than its late. Yeah, but now it's just regular QQ like every race goes through. But imagine every terran gets knocked out and we're left with PvP's in the Ro4? I don't want to be in the LR on that day. The thing is that Terran will still be OP in the eyes of the community xD. Terrans won't ever catch a break lol. I'm still pissed about the fact that it took Terrans something like a year after the game's release to figure out that BFH were really broken. That's why I'm not sympathizing with Terrans quite yet. I think there might be some answers the pros haven't dug out. You really shouldn't sympathize with anyone. Terrans will figure something out. Someone always does. There was, as far as I can tell, no way for Zerg to deal with 5 Rax Reaper. The way the build worked made it literally unstoppable. It was set up to perfectly defeat Zergling/Spine/Queen play, and if a Roach switch occurred, it was perfectly situated to handle that with Marauders. Prior to the NUMEROUS Reaper nerfs, there was no way for Zerg to properly handle that composition. When Terrans lost, it was due to their own bad micro, not because the Zerg was playing particularly well. There are cases of complete and utter imbalance in this game, and that was one of them. I don't think any race right now is in the position Zerg was in back then, but if that ever turned out to be the case, I would sympathize with the race caught in such a horrible position. Sometimes, balance patches DO need to come through. To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though. People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game. Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches. The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem. I fully understand what you're saying. But I'm just hesitant to immediately accept it as fact given how much of this game can just change without balance patches.
The current situation for Terran is nothing like the situation for Zerg was back then. It's an issue with the middle and late game, and it's unbelievably hard to enumerate all the options that Terran might be missing out on. I noticed that MKP was experimenting with fast Siege Tanks against Parting. I think that might have some merit. We'll have to see. But this current issue is something that we can't say anything definitive about yet.
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On April 25 2012 22:53 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 22:49 Fubi wrote:On April 25 2012 22:43 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:36 Fubi wrote:On April 25 2012 22:24 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:20 Fubi wrote:On April 25 2012 22:17 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:15 Asha` wrote:
I wonder whether we'll see players start to eschew travelling to MLG's and stuff like that when they're still in the GSL.
I don't think it was the prime cause of MKP's collapse but I do think being tired and somewhat jetlagged after his NY trip may have been part of the reason why he fell apart quite so quickly.
Doubt it. MLG is a lot of money to pass up for such a small time commitment. Are you trolling or is that sarcasm, cuz I can't tell. MLG is 5k, and that's IF you win, definitely not worth risking your chances at the most prestige tournament in the world. It's a weekend. That's an incredibly short amount of time. In addition, you get favorable placement in future MLG events. Korean players go to foreign events for the money. There's a lot of money to be had. I think you're overrating the importance of the GSL. Just because it's "the most prestig[ious] tournament in the world" does not make it as profitable as going to many smaller events. For example, look at Stephano. He's ranked so highly in earnings, and has never touched the GSL. That's because there's a lot of money to be had outside of it. I don't disagree with you that there are more money in the foreign scene. I'm just disagreeing with you saying that MLG has good prize pool; as 5k definitely is one of the lower prize pool of any foreign tourneys. Also, a weekend is a lot. The tourney itself is 3 days, but you have to remember it takes a day to pack up, get ready and fly there, and then takes another day to do the same to fly back and settle down. That is at least 5 days of practices that you lose. You only have like what, 2 weeks to prepare between your games? 5 days out of 2 weeks is a lot of practice time. And I'm not even counting things like jet-lag and physical exhaustion from travelling. You forget the value of good placement in future MLG events. The more you play with them, the easier it is to land in the money. These guys are professionals, and made this decision for a reason: it makes them money. There are other pros who value high placement in events over their own pay, such as NaNiwa's training session prior to MLG Providence. However, these are not such pros. They value their income above all, which is a completely legitimate choice to make. It would be nice to see everyone focus on pure improvement, but... well, it's their job to make money. I can't criticize them for doing just that. I see it the other way around actually. Because you have to realize, another reason why GSL is so important is that this is one of the only two ways for Koreans players to actually get invited to the "gold farm" that is in the other foreign tournaments that you mentioned (the other being simply join a foreign team). So if you don't do well in GSL, you won't even get to go to these foreign events in the first place to make this kind of money Even MC have mentioned several times during his previous slump that he'll stop going to foreign events for awhile to get back in shape. And there are just as many cases where players stayed behind to train. MKP today is just another scenario where most people would agree that him not going would of been a better decision in the end. If you're in Code S, chances are you're already in the gold farm. It's only Code A players that really need concern themselves with hardcore practice. Code S players have already "made it", so to speak. Also, Parting was in the exact same boat as MKP, and won nonetheless. Perhaps MKP would have been able to win if he had tossed aside the $5000 and the seed. My gut says no. Parting was just playing too well. It wasn't a problem with jet lag, it was a problem with Parting being nigh-unstoppable when he really gets going in PvT. After that, it was an issue with nerves, which also has nothing to do with jet lag. So that's why I reject your thesis.
Well it's never a guarantee win if you stay and train; I'm not saying he would of won if he didn't go, I'm saying his CHANCES of winning would of been higher if he stayed, and this is always true. Also, it's not $5000 and the seed, it's a CHANCE for those; So you're trading a 5 days of practice time and lowering your chance of advancing in GSL, for a chance of winning 5k. Especially for MKP's case, it's pretty much his dream/life-goal to win a GSL, so I don't see how in any way that it's worth it.
and lastly, as for the seed at MLG, I'm pretty sure after winning 2 MLGs, even if he skips one, pretty sure MKP would of still qualified for w/e year end big prize pool that MLG has planned. I mean again, I'm not saying Korean players should skip out on all foreign tourneys, but just the ones that are really close to their important matches.
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On April 25 2012 23:06 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 22:53 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:49 Fubi wrote:On April 25 2012 22:43 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:36 Fubi wrote:On April 25 2012 22:24 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:20 Fubi wrote:On April 25 2012 22:17 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:15 Asha` wrote:
I wonder whether we'll see players start to eschew travelling to MLG's and stuff like that when they're still in the GSL.
I don't think it was the prime cause of MKP's collapse but I do think being tired and somewhat jetlagged after his NY trip may have been part of the reason why he fell apart quite so quickly.
Doubt it. MLG is a lot of money to pass up for such a small time commitment. Are you trolling or is that sarcasm, cuz I can't tell. MLG is 5k, and that's IF you win, definitely not worth risking your chances at the most prestige tournament in the world. It's a weekend. That's an incredibly short amount of time. In addition, you get favorable placement in future MLG events. Korean players go to foreign events for the money. There's a lot of money to be had. I think you're overrating the importance of the GSL. Just because it's "the most prestig[ious] tournament in the world" does not make it as profitable as going to many smaller events. For example, look at Stephano. He's ranked so highly in earnings, and has never touched the GSL. That's because there's a lot of money to be had outside of it. I don't disagree with you that there are more money in the foreign scene. I'm just disagreeing with you saying that MLG has good prize pool; as 5k definitely is one of the lower prize pool of any foreign tourneys. Also, a weekend is a lot. The tourney itself is 3 days, but you have to remember it takes a day to pack up, get ready and fly there, and then takes another day to do the same to fly back and settle down. That is at least 5 days of practices that you lose. You only have like what, 2 weeks to prepare between your games? 5 days out of 2 weeks is a lot of practice time. And I'm not even counting things like jet-lag and physical exhaustion from travelling. You forget the value of good placement in future MLG events. The more you play with them, the easier it is to land in the money. These guys are professionals, and made this decision for a reason: it makes them money. There are other pros who value high placement in events over their own pay, such as NaNiwa's training session prior to MLG Providence. However, these are not such pros. They value their income above all, which is a completely legitimate choice to make. It would be nice to see everyone focus on pure improvement, but... well, it's their job to make money. I can't criticize them for doing just that. I see it the other way around actually. Because you have to realize, another reason why GSL is so important is that this is one of the only two ways for Koreans players to actually get invited to the "gold farm" that is in the other foreign tournaments that you mentioned (the other being simply join a foreign team). So if you don't do well in GSL, you won't even get to go to these foreign events in the first place to make this kind of money Even MC have mentioned several times during his previous slump that he'll stop going to foreign events for awhile to get back in shape. And there are just as many cases where players stayed behind to train. MKP today is just another scenario where most people would agree that him not going would of been a better decision in the end. If you're in Code S, chances are you're already in the gold farm. It's only Code A players that really need concern themselves with hardcore practice. Code S players have already "made it", so to speak. Also, Parting was in the exact same boat as MKP, and won nonetheless. Perhaps MKP would have been able to win if he had tossed aside the $5000 and the seed. My gut says no. Parting was just playing too well. It wasn't a problem with jet lag, it was a problem with Parting being nigh-unstoppable when he really gets going in PvT. After that, it was an issue with nerves, which also has nothing to do with jet lag. So that's why I reject your thesis. Well it's never a guarantee win if you stay and train; I'm not saying he would of won if he didn't go, I'm saying his CHANCES of winning would of been higher if he stayed, and this is always true. Also, it's not $5000 and the seed, it's a CHANCE for those; So you're trading a 5 days of practice time and lowering your chance of advancing in GSL, for a chance of winning 5k. Especially for MKP's case, it's pretty much his dream/life-goal to win a GSL, so I don't see how in any way that it's worth it. and lastly, as for the seed at MLG, I'm pretty sure after winning 2 MLGs, even if he skips one, pretty sure MKP would of still qualified for w/e year end big prize pool that MLG has planned. I mean again, I'm not saying Korean players should skip out on all foreign tourneys, but just the ones that are really close to their important matches.
Point taken. Nevertheless, although I do think we might see some individual players decide that the GSL trumps everything in importance, I think the general trend in SC2 will continue to be Koreans leaping at the chance to compete abroad.
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I hate Taeja. He eliminated MKP and Jjakji..
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Good call TL team, good call
Nice showing TL, 25% of GSL RO8 = Blue horse, that is impressive.
Where`s EG at yo?
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Wow TaeJa...who would've said, he bounced back like a terminator and crushed everyone on his path!!!
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On April 25 2012 23:12 HaXeR wrote:I hate Taeja. He eliminated MKP and Jjakji..
If a player cannot win his matches for you to like him, i guess no player would want to be liked by you.
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On April 25 2012 23:06 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:03 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 23:00 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:39 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:31 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:30 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:25 vndods wrote:On April 25 2012 22:24 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:21 Acritter wrote:
[quote]
There already IS a lot of Terran balance qqing, if my ladder experience is anything to go by. I'd just like Blizzard to figure out a way to fix the problem Terran's had since beta with its early game being so much stronger than its late. Yeah, but now it's just regular QQ like every race goes through. But imagine every terran gets knocked out and we're left with PvP's in the Ro4? I don't want to be in the LR on that day. The thing is that Terran will still be OP in the eyes of the community xD. Terrans won't ever catch a break lol. I'm still pissed about the fact that it took Terrans something like a year after the game's release to figure out that BFH were really broken. That's why I'm not sympathizing with Terrans quite yet. I think there might be some answers the pros haven't dug out. You really shouldn't sympathize with anyone. Terrans will figure something out. Someone always does. There was, as far as I can tell, no way for Zerg to deal with 5 Rax Reaper. The way the build worked made it literally unstoppable. It was set up to perfectly defeat Zergling/Spine/Queen play, and if a Roach switch occurred, it was perfectly situated to handle that with Marauders. Prior to the NUMEROUS Reaper nerfs, there was no way for Zerg to properly handle that composition. When Terrans lost, it was due to their own bad micro, not because the Zerg was playing particularly well. There are cases of complete and utter imbalance in this game, and that was one of them. I don't think any race right now is in the position Zerg was in back then, but if that ever turned out to be the case, I would sympathize with the race caught in such a horrible position. Sometimes, balance patches DO need to come through. To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though. People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game. Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches. The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem. I fully understand what you're saying. But I'm just hesitant to immediately accept it as fact given how much of this game can just change without balance patches. The current situation for Terran is nothing like the situation for Zerg was back then. It's an issue with the middle and late game, and it's unbelievably hard to enumerate all the options that Terran might be missing out on. I noticed that MKP was experimenting with fast Siege Tanks against Parting. I think that might have some merit. We'll have to see. But this current issue is something that we can't say anything definitive about yet.
Terrans needs to work on their EMP micro. i think we are seeing the "this unit just got buffed so im gonna start using it-effect" reversed. Yeah, ghosts got nerfed, but the answer is to adapt and improve your EMP micro, not abandon ghosts entierly.
its like when KA was removed and every protoss stopped using templars for months. Templars are still deadly without the amulet upgrade, they are just slightly harder to use. the same goes for ghosts after EMP nerf.
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Taeja advances past MKP at 2-2.
Glad there's no extended series.
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Still #1 ELO yo.
Too bad he's standing on HerO's Royal Road though.
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So really, what happened to Tasteless?
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On April 25 2012 23:17 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:06 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:03 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 23:00 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:39 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:31 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:30 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:25 vndods wrote:On April 25 2012 22:24 Megabuster123 wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but now it's just regular QQ like every race goes through.
But imagine every terran gets knocked out and we're left with PvP's in the Ro4?
I don't want to be in the LR on that day. The thing is that Terran will still be OP in the eyes of the community xD. Terrans won't ever catch a break lol. I'm still pissed about the fact that it took Terrans something like a year after the game's release to figure out that BFH were really broken. That's why I'm not sympathizing with Terrans quite yet. I think there might be some answers the pros haven't dug out. You really shouldn't sympathize with anyone. Terrans will figure something out. Someone always does. There was, as far as I can tell, no way for Zerg to deal with 5 Rax Reaper. The way the build worked made it literally unstoppable. It was set up to perfectly defeat Zergling/Spine/Queen play, and if a Roach switch occurred, it was perfectly situated to handle that with Marauders. Prior to the NUMEROUS Reaper nerfs, there was no way for Zerg to properly handle that composition. When Terrans lost, it was due to their own bad micro, not because the Zerg was playing particularly well. There are cases of complete and utter imbalance in this game, and that was one of them. I don't think any race right now is in the position Zerg was in back then, but if that ever turned out to be the case, I would sympathize with the race caught in such a horrible position. Sometimes, balance patches DO need to come through. To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though. People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game. Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches. The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem. I fully understand what you're saying. But I'm just hesitant to immediately accept it as fact given how much of this game can just change without balance patches. The current situation for Terran is nothing like the situation for Zerg was back then. It's an issue with the middle and late game, and it's unbelievably hard to enumerate all the options that Terran might be missing out on. I noticed that MKP was experimenting with fast Siege Tanks against Parting. I think that might have some merit. We'll have to see. But this current issue is something that we can't say anything definitive about yet. Terrans needs to work on their EMP micro. i think we are seeing the "this unit just got buffed so im gonna start using it-effect" reversed. Yeah, ghosts got nerfed, but the answer is to adapt and improve your EMP micro, not abandon ghosts entierly. its like when KA was removed and every protoss stopped using templars for months. Templars are still deadly without the amulet upgrade, they are just slightly harder to use. the same goes for ghosts after EMP nerf.
Wouldn't be surprised. Snipe is probably more important, though. I forget who it was between, but I saw a TvP where the T had some excellent Snipes. Vastly reduced the Storm count. We'll have to wait and see if any Terrans are willing to step up to the plate.
On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless?
He's sick.
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On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless?
Lost his passion years ago.
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On April 25 2012 23:27 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless? Lost his passion years ago.
lolololol
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On April 25 2012 23:24 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:17 sc2holar wrote:On April 25 2012 23:06 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:03 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 23:00 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:39 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:31 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:30 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:25 vndods wrote:
[quote]
The thing is that Terran will still be OP in the eyes of the community xD. Terrans won't ever catch a break lol. I'm still pissed about the fact that it took Terrans something like a year after the game's release to figure out that BFH were really broken. That's why I'm not sympathizing with Terrans quite yet. I think there might be some answers the pros haven't dug out. You really shouldn't sympathize with anyone. Terrans will figure something out. Someone always does. There was, as far as I can tell, no way for Zerg to deal with 5 Rax Reaper. The way the build worked made it literally unstoppable. It was set up to perfectly defeat Zergling/Spine/Queen play, and if a Roach switch occurred, it was perfectly situated to handle that with Marauders. Prior to the NUMEROUS Reaper nerfs, there was no way for Zerg to properly handle that composition. When Terrans lost, it was due to their own bad micro, not because the Zerg was playing particularly well. There are cases of complete and utter imbalance in this game, and that was one of them. I don't think any race right now is in the position Zerg was in back then, but if that ever turned out to be the case, I would sympathize with the race caught in such a horrible position. Sometimes, balance patches DO need to come through. To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though. People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game. Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches. The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem. I fully understand what you're saying. But I'm just hesitant to immediately accept it as fact given how much of this game can just change without balance patches. The current situation for Terran is nothing like the situation for Zerg was back then. It's an issue with the middle and late game, and it's unbelievably hard to enumerate all the options that Terran might be missing out on. I noticed that MKP was experimenting with fast Siege Tanks against Parting. I think that might have some merit. We'll have to see. But this current issue is something that we can't say anything definitive about yet. Terrans needs to work on their EMP micro. i think we are seeing the "this unit just got buffed so im gonna start using it-effect" reversed. Yeah, ghosts got nerfed, but the answer is to adapt and improve your EMP micro, not abandon ghosts entierly. its like when KA was removed and every protoss stopped using templars for months. Templars are still deadly without the amulet upgrade, they are just slightly harder to use. the same goes for ghosts after EMP nerf. Wouldn't be surprised. Snipe is probably more important, though. I forget who it was between, but I saw a TvP where the T had some excellent Snipes. Vastly reduced the Storm count. We'll have to wait and see if any Terrans are willing to step up to the plate. Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless? He's sick.
Yeah, it depends on the situation. If Toss goes pure gateway+templar, snipe can seal the deal easily.
i would also like to see Terrans start experimenting with reactor-factory Hellions to counter chargelots. I feel like marines might not be that useful in the current meta-game.
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EPT
