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I think Hellion+Marauder+Ghost+Viking might be the answer in the current TvP meta-game.
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On April 25 2012 23:27 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless? Lost his passion years ago.
I swear to god, one day I will type "tasteless" into google search and I will get back "did you mean: 'lost his passion years ago?'"
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On April 25 2012 23:33 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:27 kafkaesque wrote:On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless? Lost his passion years ago. I swear to god, one day I will type "tasteless" into google search and I will get back "did you mean: 'lost his passion years ago?'"
more like "lost his voice years ago"
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what song was the winners when taeja won the first game? 
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On April 25 2012 23:27 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless? Lost his passion years ago.
Perhaps since BW?
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sigh i miss 5 rax reapers, i had a 30+ win streak as zerg against terran, till it got nerfed. Terran at that time was so predictable, as zerg you could blind conter every step the terran did and play greedy as hell. I wish i would have know magic boxing at that time. I used to split mutas and use corruptors for corruption and absorbing thor shots.
Ah good old times, where you just needed a bit of micro to be in the top 200.
Still like going 5(6 now) rax reapers against zergs, since it works like day one (zergs are to greedy to hold it or scout it in time). But most maps simply don't allow it since cliffs into main and natural are missing. So for me most nerfs actually only affected tvp lategame, where you want to replace marines with reapers if you have overgas.
Moving the Speed tech higher and roach range 4, was actually nerf enough, to put zerg in heavy favor against reapers.
Oh well they will lose their d4 charges soon anyway and will become less effective against toss lategame that way.
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On April 25 2012 23:28 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:24 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:17 sc2holar wrote:On April 25 2012 23:06 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:03 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 23:00 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:39 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:31 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:30 Acritter wrote:
[quote]
I'm still pissed about the fact that it took Terrans something like a year after the game's release to figure out that BFH were really broken. That's why I'm not sympathizing with Terrans quite yet. I think there might be some answers the pros haven't dug out. You really shouldn't sympathize with anyone. Terrans will figure something out. Someone always does. There was, as far as I can tell, no way for Zerg to deal with 5 Rax Reaper. The way the build worked made it literally unstoppable. It was set up to perfectly defeat Zergling/Spine/Queen play, and if a Roach switch occurred, it was perfectly situated to handle that with Marauders. Prior to the NUMEROUS Reaper nerfs, there was no way for Zerg to properly handle that composition. When Terrans lost, it was due to their own bad micro, not because the Zerg was playing particularly well. There are cases of complete and utter imbalance in this game, and that was one of them. I don't think any race right now is in the position Zerg was in back then, but if that ever turned out to be the case, I would sympathize with the race caught in such a horrible position. Sometimes, balance patches DO need to come through. To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though. People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game. Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches. The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem. I fully understand what you're saying. But I'm just hesitant to immediately accept it as fact given how much of this game can just change without balance patches. The current situation for Terran is nothing like the situation for Zerg was back then. It's an issue with the middle and late game, and it's unbelievably hard to enumerate all the options that Terran might be missing out on. I noticed that MKP was experimenting with fast Siege Tanks against Parting. I think that might have some merit. We'll have to see. But this current issue is something that we can't say anything definitive about yet. Terrans needs to work on their EMP micro. i think we are seeing the "this unit just got buffed so im gonna start using it-effect" reversed. Yeah, ghosts got nerfed, but the answer is to adapt and improve your EMP micro, not abandon ghosts entierly. its like when KA was removed and every protoss stopped using templars for months. Templars are still deadly without the amulet upgrade, they are just slightly harder to use. the same goes for ghosts after EMP nerf. Wouldn't be surprised. Snipe is probably more important, though. I forget who it was between, but I saw a TvP where the T had some excellent Snipes. Vastly reduced the Storm count. We'll have to wait and see if any Terrans are willing to step up to the plate. On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless? He's sick. Yeah, it depends on the situation. If Toss goes pure gateway+templar, snipe can seal the deal easily. i would also like to see Terrans start experimenting with reactor-factory Hellions to counter chargelots. I feel like marines might not be that useful in the current meta-game.
The main issue with Hellions is that they're mechanical. Most of the bioball's strength lies in its ability to heal up and keep moving. Hellions lose that. Then there are the issues regarding upgrades.
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On April 25 2012 23:41 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:28 sc2holar wrote:On April 25 2012 23:24 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:17 sc2holar wrote:On April 25 2012 23:06 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:03 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 23:00 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:39 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:31 Megabuster123 wrote:
[quote]
You really shouldn't sympathize with anyone. Terrans will figure something out. Someone always does. There was, as far as I can tell, no way for Zerg to deal with 5 Rax Reaper. The way the build worked made it literally unstoppable. It was set up to perfectly defeat Zergling/Spine/Queen play, and if a Roach switch occurred, it was perfectly situated to handle that with Marauders. Prior to the NUMEROUS Reaper nerfs, there was no way for Zerg to properly handle that composition. When Terrans lost, it was due to their own bad micro, not because the Zerg was playing particularly well. There are cases of complete and utter imbalance in this game, and that was one of them. I don't think any race right now is in the position Zerg was in back then, but if that ever turned out to be the case, I would sympathize with the race caught in such a horrible position. Sometimes, balance patches DO need to come through. To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though. People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game. Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches. The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem. I fully understand what you're saying. But I'm just hesitant to immediately accept it as fact given how much of this game can just change without balance patches. The current situation for Terran is nothing like the situation for Zerg was back then. It's an issue with the middle and late game, and it's unbelievably hard to enumerate all the options that Terran might be missing out on. I noticed that MKP was experimenting with fast Siege Tanks against Parting. I think that might have some merit. We'll have to see. But this current issue is something that we can't say anything definitive about yet. Terrans needs to work on their EMP micro. i think we are seeing the "this unit just got buffed so im gonna start using it-effect" reversed. Yeah, ghosts got nerfed, but the answer is to adapt and improve your EMP micro, not abandon ghosts entierly. its like when KA was removed and every protoss stopped using templars for months. Templars are still deadly without the amulet upgrade, they are just slightly harder to use. the same goes for ghosts after EMP nerf. Wouldn't be surprised. Snipe is probably more important, though. I forget who it was between, but I saw a TvP where the T had some excellent Snipes. Vastly reduced the Storm count. We'll have to wait and see if any Terrans are willing to step up to the plate. On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless? He's sick. Yeah, it depends on the situation. If Toss goes pure gateway+templar, snipe can seal the deal easily. i would also like to see Terrans start experimenting with reactor-factory Hellions to counter chargelots. I feel like marines might not be that useful in the current meta-game. The main issue with Hellions is that they're mechanical. Most of the bioball's strength lies in its ability to heal up and keep moving. Hellions lose that. Then there are the issues regarding upgrades.
i think it comes down to engagements. if you strike with your marauder+ghost+vikings and start focusing down the colossus with your vikings and emp the templar+chargelots, and then send in your hellions to flank and pretty much oneshot the chargelots, and then retreat with them and leave the damaged stalkers to your marauders. I think hellions need to be used more as a hit and run unit. You dont really need to upgrade your hellions, as long as you manage to EMP most of the chargelots sheilds, 8-10 hellions will always oneshot every zealot that get caught in their volley.
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On April 25 2012 23:46 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:41 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:28 sc2holar wrote:On April 25 2012 23:24 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:17 sc2holar wrote:On April 25 2012 23:06 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:03 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 23:00 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 22:39 Acritter wrote:
[quote]
There was, as far as I can tell, no way for Zerg to deal with 5 Rax Reaper. The way the build worked made it literally unstoppable. It was set up to perfectly defeat Zergling/Spine/Queen play, and if a Roach switch occurred, it was perfectly situated to handle that with Marauders. Prior to the NUMEROUS Reaper nerfs, there was no way for Zerg to properly handle that composition. When Terrans lost, it was due to their own bad micro, not because the Zerg was playing particularly well. There are cases of complete and utter imbalance in this game, and that was one of them. I don't think any race right now is in the position Zerg was in back then, but if that ever turned out to be the case, I would sympathize with the race caught in such a horrible position. Sometimes, balance patches DO need to come through. To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though. People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game. Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches. The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem. I fully understand what you're saying. But I'm just hesitant to immediately accept it as fact given how much of this game can just change without balance patches. The current situation for Terran is nothing like the situation for Zerg was back then. It's an issue with the middle and late game, and it's unbelievably hard to enumerate all the options that Terran might be missing out on. I noticed that MKP was experimenting with fast Siege Tanks against Parting. I think that might have some merit. We'll have to see. But this current issue is something that we can't say anything definitive about yet. Terrans needs to work on their EMP micro. i think we are seeing the "this unit just got buffed so im gonna start using it-effect" reversed. Yeah, ghosts got nerfed, but the answer is to adapt and improve your EMP micro, not abandon ghosts entierly. its like when KA was removed and every protoss stopped using templars for months. Templars are still deadly without the amulet upgrade, they are just slightly harder to use. the same goes for ghosts after EMP nerf. Wouldn't be surprised. Snipe is probably more important, though. I forget who it was between, but I saw a TvP where the T had some excellent Snipes. Vastly reduced the Storm count. We'll have to wait and see if any Terrans are willing to step up to the plate. On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless? He's sick. Yeah, it depends on the situation. If Toss goes pure gateway+templar, snipe can seal the deal easily. i would also like to see Terrans start experimenting with reactor-factory Hellions to counter chargelots. I feel like marines might not be that useful in the current meta-game. The main issue with Hellions is that they're mechanical. Most of the bioball's strength lies in its ability to heal up and keep moving. Hellions lose that. Then there are the issues regarding upgrades. i think it comes down to engagements. if you strike with your marauder+ghost+vikings and start focusing down the colossus with your vikings and emp the templar+chargelots, and then send in your hellions to flank and pretty much oneshot the chargelots, and then retreat with them and leave the damaged stalkers to your marauders. I think hellions need to be used more as a hit and run unit.
The only use I can see for Hellions is cleanup of the warp-in round. You know the one.
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On April 25 2012 23:48 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:46 sc2holar wrote:On April 25 2012 23:41 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:28 sc2holar wrote:On April 25 2012 23:24 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:17 sc2holar wrote:On April 25 2012 23:06 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 23:03 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 25 2012 23:00 Acritter wrote:On April 25 2012 22:53 Megabuster123 wrote:
[quote]
To be fair, we don't know if there was a way to deal with 5 rax reaper or not because it just got nerfed. I feel like balance patches occur too frequently in starcraft 2.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a zerg and I hated that shit but still. People cry balance too quickly I think. We'll see though.
People were also significantly worse at starcraft 2 back during 5 rax reaper as well. Army control, positioning, macro, etc was just shittier. So I'm not sure how broken anything was back then as opposed to how terrible we all were at the game. Most of the games that Zerg won back then were because the Terran threw it away. Failed to pay attention to their Reapers and lost half of them to a Speedling surround. With modern Terran micro, I'd just say the problem for Zerg would be WORSE. The most hilarious thing of all was that Reapers back then could actually kite Roaches. The problem with 5 Rax Reaper was that it hit at a stage of the game where Zerg had a set of options you could count on your fingers. Spines didn't work. Roaches didn't work. Fast Lair wouldn't finish in time to get anything good out, and the Spire would just get sniped anyway. Zerglings worked the best, but stopped working the second the Reapers hit a critical mass. The only thing I can think of that might have been worth exploring was massed Queens and Spines, because of Transfuse, but that's it. That was the full list of Zerg options, outside of all-ins. That was the problem. I fully understand what you're saying. But I'm just hesitant to immediately accept it as fact given how much of this game can just change without balance patches. The current situation for Terran is nothing like the situation for Zerg was back then. It's an issue with the middle and late game, and it's unbelievably hard to enumerate all the options that Terran might be missing out on. I noticed that MKP was experimenting with fast Siege Tanks against Parting. I think that might have some merit. We'll have to see. But this current issue is something that we can't say anything definitive about yet. Terrans needs to work on their EMP micro. i think we are seeing the "this unit just got buffed so im gonna start using it-effect" reversed. Yeah, ghosts got nerfed, but the answer is to adapt and improve your EMP micro, not abandon ghosts entierly. its like when KA was removed and every protoss stopped using templars for months. Templars are still deadly without the amulet upgrade, they are just slightly harder to use. the same goes for ghosts after EMP nerf. Wouldn't be surprised. Snipe is probably more important, though. I forget who it was between, but I saw a TvP where the T had some excellent Snipes. Vastly reduced the Storm count. We'll have to wait and see if any Terrans are willing to step up to the plate. On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless? He's sick. Yeah, it depends on the situation. If Toss goes pure gateway+templar, snipe can seal the deal easily. i would also like to see Terrans start experimenting with reactor-factory Hellions to counter chargelots. I feel like marines might not be that useful in the current meta-game. The main issue with Hellions is that they're mechanical. Most of the bioball's strength lies in its ability to heal up and keep moving. Hellions lose that. Then there are the issues regarding upgrades. i think it comes down to engagements. if you strike with your marauder+ghost+vikings and start focusing down the colossus with your vikings and emp the templar+chargelots, and then send in your hellions to flank and pretty much oneshot the chargelots, and then retreat with them and leave the damaged stalkers to your marauders. I think hellions need to be used more as a hit and run unit. The only use I can see for Hellions is cleanup of the warp-in round. You know the one.
yeah, and that warp in round is usually what kills terran in the late game.
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On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless?
He got sick
+ Show Spoiler +
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2 Liquid players and a foreigner in Ro8? I couldn't really ask for more.
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On April 25 2012 23:20 trinxified wrote:
So really, what happened to Tasteless?
He's sick with a fever.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qCNQR.jpg)
SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER!!!
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Can't blame him.
Well 2 liquid+ naniwa, If maru qualifies it would be a perfect ro16 for me.
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I just came back from the university and looked at the results... I'm sooo happy for Taeja :D And from what I read in the TL article the way he got his victory is really impressive. Now I can't wait to watch the vods 
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MKP in Code A, so he's hasn't had a solid Code S showing for nearly a year now. Quite surprising.
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On April 26 2012 00:25 Bagration wrote:
MKP in Code A, so he's hasn't had a solid Code S showing for nearly a year now. Quite surprising.
Agreed, especially since he's been on fire recently in so many other tournaments.
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On April 26 2012 00:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 00:25 Bagration wrote:
MKP in Code A, so he's hasn't had a solid Code S showing for nearly a year now. Quite surprising. Agreed, especially since he's been on fire recently in so many other tournaments.
People have to realize that Code A isn't what it used to be. If you bounce back immediately it doesn't really matter.
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On April 26 2012 00:31 vndods wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 00:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 26 2012 00:25 Bagration wrote:
MKP in Code A, so he's hasn't had a solid Code S showing for nearly a year now. Quite surprising. Agreed, especially since he's been on fire recently in so many other tournaments. People have to realize that Code A isn't what it used to be. If you bounce back immediately it doesn't really matter.
and if you fall down from round 16 you only have to win two games to get back into code S...
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EPT
