On April 22 2012 08:46 Zerothegreat wrote: [quote]
If you really want to see balance problems watch Leenock vs HeRo from Ro16 series.... Protoss late game is extremely hard to beat when played correctly. Zerg has to play perfect and even then it's very hard.
Both HerO v Leenock from Code S and Parting v Violet here had play that would be laughed at when this game gets more figured out.
Wings of Liberty is still so young, so unexplored in late game and lacks so much refinement. Claiming racial imbalance in super late game is so silly because there is not enough data on it and because we see new developments whenever a matchup has so far found a stable way to transition there.
At some point this game needs to be figured out. It will probably not be in Wings of Liberty, because any projected release date for Heart of the Swarm will certainly come way before this point. But all the same, at some point we just have to sit back and look at the game develop over a long period of time. Both spectators and professionals like to point out whatever they think to be evidence of imbalance, but even if a game was balanced perfectly, we will go through long periods of things feeling imbalanced because a race had something figured out while the other did not.
Of course it is always going to be a fear that we will never reach that stage. I hope Blizzard will have the integrity and confidence to leave things alone at some point; the whining will be immense but the alternative is that we just remain in a flux where skill and development takes a back seat to micro managing racial win percentages through nerfs and buffs.
I'm not saying the game is imbalanced at all. I'm saying a standard game can shift in favoring one race over another depending on the length of the game. Which isn't really fun gameplay if you get in the mindset: "I have to kill (insert race here) before they get a certain army composition or I lose!" OR "I have to stay alive until I get a certain composition of units to have an easier chance to win."
Edit: Anyways, I'm getting off topic so I will be sticking to what the thread is designed for now.
This has always been like this in BW and it's never been a problem, depending on the builds used and the players involved, some matchups heavily depend on things like this
BW always felt like every race was on even footing at every aspect of the game. Maybe I played a different game?
Have you played TvP in BW?
There are more Terran bonjwas in BW? >.>
Are you contradicting your own "every race was on even footing at every aspect" argument, by trying to refute my statement?
You refuting your statement with that statement? Flash is superhuman. Protoss is doing fine in the BW tournaments right now. The results are all pretty balanced.
You are using the argument "4 Terran bonjwas > 0 Protoss bonjwas" as an argument for: 1.) TvP is not P-favoured. (imo, TvP is slightly P-favoured, very noticable in the early game) 2.) Every race is on even footing at every aspect of the game.
You're using bonjwa numbers to argue balance of a matchup but the bonjwa numbers are very imbalanced in T-favour. IMO, the number of Terran bonjwas means very little.
Meaning the real balance lies within player skill right? Which is the correct gameplay to aim for; that is what I'm trying to say and point out.
Both HerO v Leenock from Code S and Parting v Violet here had play that would be laughed at when this game gets more figured out.
Wings of Liberty is still so young, so unexplored in late game and lacks so much refinement. Claiming racial imbalance in super late game is so silly because there is not enough data on it and because we see new developments whenever a matchup has so far found a stable way to transition there.
At some point this game needs to be figured out. It will probably not be in Wings of Liberty, because any projected release date for Heart of the Swarm will certainly come way before this point. But all the same, at some point we just have to sit back and look at the game develop over a long period of time. Both spectators and professionals like to point out whatever they think to be evidence of imbalance, but even if a game was balanced perfectly, we will go through long periods of things feeling imbalanced because a race had something figured out while the other did not.
Of course it is always going to be a fear that we will never reach that stage. I hope Blizzard will have the integrity and confidence to leave things alone at some point; the whining will be immense but the alternative is that we just remain in a flux where skill and development takes a back seat to micro managing racial win percentages through nerfs and buffs.
I'm not saying the game is imbalanced at all. I'm saying a standard game can shift in favoring one race over another depending on the length of the game. Which isn't really fun gameplay if you get in the mindset: "I have to kill (insert race here) before they get a certain army composition or I lose!" OR "I have to stay alive until I get a certain composition of units to have an easier chance to win."
Edit: Anyways, I'm getting off topic so I will be sticking to what the thread is designed for now.
This has always been like this in BW and it's never been a problem, depending on the builds used and the players involved, some matchups heavily depend on things like this
BW always felt like every race was on even footing at every aspect of the game. Maybe I played a different game?
Have you played TvP in BW?
There are more Terran bonjwas in BW? >.>
Are you contradicting your own "every race was on even footing at every aspect" argument, by trying to refute my statement?
You refuting your statement with that statement? Flash is superhuman. Protoss is doing fine in the BW tournaments right now. The results are all pretty balanced.
*facepalm*
He is arguing that in TvP in BW, at certain times, one race is favoured. For example, if Protoss gets Carriers out against a Terran with few Goliaths and mostly just Tanks/Vultures, Terran is screwed pretty much no matter what. Likewise, if Protoss can't get Carriers out and has to rely on pure Gateway units against a well-upgraded Factory-based composition, Protoss is screwed pretty much no matter what.
I think you two are arguing very different things here.
A decade of results is enough variables to be sampled out. And if Terran sees mass carriers then they adjust their comp and the game goes back to even footing with micro.
Edit: It's like saying DT is overpowered cause a person that doesn't get detection loses...
The thing is nobody is saying the matchup is imbalance, or that X unit is overpowered. It's just that the power balance isn't stable all the time inside a game.
In this same example, terran will most likely die because he won't be able to change the comp in time. If what you say is true, matches would go on forever until all minerals are mined, the game isn't like this. In the same line, if I as protoss go for a carrier build, and my terran opponent wants to kill me with a factory tank-vulture heavy build, he MUST kill me before I get a critical carrier mass, or he WILL lose unless I make a gigantic blunder. This doesn't mean the matchup is imbalanced, nobody is saying that.
On April 22 2012 09:21 vndods wrote: Wow, I'm really impressed by MKP TvT. I thought he was still bad after he got demolished by aLive but it really is looking much better.
he got cheesed out by alive, not demolished lawl
Yeah alive proxy maurder rushed mkp twice because he knows mkp doesn't scout.
Both HerO v Leenock from Code S and Parting v Violet here had play that would be laughed at when this game gets more figured out.
Wings of Liberty is still so young, so unexplored in late game and lacks so much refinement. Claiming racial imbalance in super late game is so silly because there is not enough data on it and because we see new developments whenever a matchup has so far found a stable way to transition there.
At some point this game needs to be figured out. It will probably not be in Wings of Liberty, because any projected release date for Heart of the Swarm will certainly come way before this point. But all the same, at some point we just have to sit back and look at the game develop over a long period of time. Both spectators and professionals like to point out whatever they think to be evidence of imbalance, but even if a game was balanced perfectly, we will go through long periods of things feeling imbalanced because a race had something figured out while the other did not.
Of course it is always going to be a fear that we will never reach that stage. I hope Blizzard will have the integrity and confidence to leave things alone at some point; the whining will be immense but the alternative is that we just remain in a flux where skill and development takes a back seat to micro managing racial win percentages through nerfs and buffs.
I'm not saying the game is imbalanced at all. I'm saying a standard game can shift in favoring one race over another depending on the length of the game. Which isn't really fun gameplay if you get in the mindset: "I have to kill (insert race here) before they get a certain army composition or I lose!" OR "I have to stay alive until I get a certain composition of units to have an easier chance to win."
Edit: Anyways, I'm getting off topic so I will be sticking to what the thread is designed for now.
This has always been like this in BW and it's never been a problem, depending on the builds used and the players involved, some matchups heavily depend on things like this
BW always felt like every race was on even footing at every aspect of the game. Maybe I played a different game?
Have you played TvP in BW?
There are more Terran bonjwas in BW? >.>
Are you contradicting your own "every race was on even footing at every aspect" argument, by trying to refute my statement?
You refuting your statement with that statement? Flash is superhuman. Protoss is doing fine in the BW tournaments right now. The results are all pretty balanced.
You are using the argument "4 Terran bonjwas > 0 Protoss bonjwas" as an argument for: 1.) TvP is not P-favoured. (imo, TvP is slightly P-favoured, very noticable in the early game) 2.) Every race is on even footing at every aspect of the game.
You're using bonjwa numbers to argue balance of a matchup but the bonjwa numbers are very imbalanced in T-favour. IMO, the number of Terran bonjwas means very little.
Meaning the real balance lies within player skill right? Which is the correct gameplay to aim for; that is what I'm trying to say and point out.
Obviously Zerg was the best race in early SC2 because Fruitdealer and NesTea won the first two GSLs!
On April 22 2012 09:21 vndods wrote: Wow, I'm really impressed by MKP TvT. I thought he was still bad after he got demolished by aLive but it really is looking much better.
he got cheesed out by alive, not demolished lawl
Yeah alive proxy maurder rushed mkp twice because he knows mkp doesn't scout.
True, so maybe MKP could have took on aLive after all.
Just an observation of a glaring balance flaw. Zerg is supposed to be ahead in the number of bases because of low cost-efficiency, however broodlords/infestors is the most cost-efficient unit combinaison of the game, only challenged by storm/colossi against bioball in PvT.
If you really want to see balance problems watch Leenock vs HeRo from Ro16 series.... Protoss late game is extremely hard to beat when played correctly. Zerg has to play perfect and even then it's very hard.
Both HerO v Leenock from Code S and Parting v Violet here had play that would be laughed at when this game gets more figured out.
Wings of Liberty is still so young, so unexplored in late game and lacks so much refinement. Claiming racial imbalance in super late game is so silly because there is not enough data on it and because we see new developments whenever a matchup has so far found a stable way to transition there.
At some point this game needs to be figured out. It will probably not be in Wings of Liberty, because any projected release date for Heart of the Swarm will certainly come way before this point. But all the same, at some point we just have to sit back and look at the game develop over a long period of time. Both spectators and professionals like to point out whatever they think to be evidence of imbalance, but even if a game was balanced perfectly, we will go through long periods of things feeling imbalanced because a race had something figured out while the other did not.
Of course it is always going to be a fear that we will never reach that stage. I hope Blizzard will have the integrity and confidence to leave things alone at some point; the whining will be immense but the alternative is that we just remain in a flux where skill and development takes a back seat to micro managing racial win percentages through nerfs and buffs.
I'm not saying the game is imbalanced at all. I'm saying a standard game can shift in favoring one race over another depending on the length of the game. Which isn't really fun gameplay if you get in the mindset: "I have to kill (insert race here) before they get a certain army composition or I lose!" OR "I have to stay alive until I get a certain composition of units to have an easier chance to win."
Edit: Anyways, I'm getting off topic so I will be sticking to what the thread is designed for now.
This has always been like this in BW and it's never been a problem, depending on the builds used and the players involved, some matchups heavily depend on things like this
BW always felt like every race was on even footing at every aspect of the game. Maybe I played a different game?
Have you played TvP in BW?
There are more Terran bonjwas in BW? >.>
What does that have to do with anything?
T: iloveoov, boxer, nada Z: savior (i would include july b/c he's the f*cking god of war, and jaedong b/c he's made more money that everyone else, plus both have golden mice) P: okay, so bisu sucks at msl. hes still good ._.
sorry, tangent.
bisu has 3 msl's -_-
On April 22 2012 09:32 JiYan wrote: i think korean fans are right, i care way less about tournaments when foreigners are no longer participating.
if you paid for this tournament to see foreigners in a tournament of 7 good koreans and a slumping huk that was probably a mistake
Just an observation of a glaring balance flaw. Zerg is supposed to be ahead in the number of bases because of low cost-efficiency, however broodlords/infestors is the most cost-efficient unit combinaison of the game, only challenged by storm/colossi against bioball in PvT.
If you really want to see balance problems watch Leenock vs HeRo from Ro16 series.... Protoss late game is extremely hard to beat when played correctly. Zerg has to play perfect and even then it's very hard.
Both HerO v Leenock from Code S and Parting v Violet here had play that would be laughed at when this game gets more figured out.
Wings of Liberty is still so young, so unexplored in late game and lacks so much refinement. Claiming racial imbalance in super late game is so silly because there is not enough data on it and because we see new developments whenever a matchup has so far found a stable way to transition there.
At some point this game needs to be figured out. It will probably not be in Wings of Liberty, because any projected release date for Heart of the Swarm will certainly come way before this point. But all the same, at some point we just have to sit back and look at the game develop over a long period of time. Both spectators and professionals like to point out whatever they think to be evidence of imbalance, but even if a game was balanced perfectly, we will go through long periods of things feeling imbalanced because a race had something figured out while the other did not.
Of course it is always going to be a fear that we will never reach that stage. I hope Blizzard will have the integrity and confidence to leave things alone at some point; the whining will be immense but the alternative is that we just remain in a flux where skill and development takes a back seat to micro managing racial win percentages through nerfs and buffs.
I'm not saying the game is imbalanced at all. I'm saying a standard game can shift in favoring one race over another depending on the length of the game. Which isn't really fun gameplay if you get in the mindset: "I have to kill (insert race here) before they get a certain army composition or I lose!" OR "I have to stay alive until I get a certain composition of units to have an easier chance to win."
Edit: Anyways, I'm getting off topic so I will be sticking to what the thread is designed for now.
This has always been like this in BW and it's never been a problem, depending on the builds used and the players involved, some matchups heavily depend on things like this
BW always felt like every race was on even footing at every aspect of the game. Maybe I played a different game?
Have you played TvP in BW?
There are more Terran bonjwas in BW? >.>
What does that have to do with anything?
T: iloveoov, boxer, nada Z: savior (i would include july b/c he's the f*cking god of war, and jaedong b/c he's made more money that everyone else, plus both have golden mice) P: okay, so bisu sucks at msl. hes still good ._.
EPT
