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On April 14 2012 20:30 Hall0wed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 20:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 14 2012 19:09 roym899 wrote:On April 14 2012 19:06 Adreme wrote:On April 14 2012 19:05 Belha wrote:On April 14 2012 18:00 LimitSEA wrote:
Two zergs in Code S. Jesus, this is just sad. Why this never happened to terran -.-" Probably because a ridiculous amount of most teams high level playesr are terran. With the exception of oGs and Zenex I think all 8 other teams have a high level terran not to mention that now multiple foreign teams are getting high level terrans. But the question is WHY are there so many more Top Terrans then Top Zergs and Protosses since the Release of the game? In the ladder the races are splitted very equally. The skill ceiling for Terran is highest? At the highest levels of the game, Terran is the most rewarding and has the most potential? Those seemed to be the historical arguments throughout 2 years of SC2. Also, Virus taking down both MC and Nestea... another seemingly random high-level Terran (that most people wouldn't even put in the Top 10, let alone Top 5) taking down the solid #1 Protoss and #2 Zerg (after DRG) and forcing them to play for second place. Damn x.x -_-;; MC #1 Protoss? *sigh*
How dare you? 
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On April 14 2012 19:45 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 19:27 Cereb wrote:On April 14 2012 18:56 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 18:03 Asha` wrote:
So R16 =
7P (out of 10)
7T (out of 15)
2Z (out of 7) 1 bad season. Protoss has put up with 6-7 of that kind of representation. Welcome to club You have a ways to go before you can really feel disenfranchized. lol thank you  But to be honest, usually during the period where toss was underrepresented, Zerg had one maybe two players more than toss in the gsl. But I guess that was enough for toss to get all the attention On April 14 2012 19:27 Adreme wrote:On April 14 2012 19:14 m0ck wrote:On April 14 2012 19:02 Adreme wrote:On April 14 2012 18:50 m0ck wrote:On April 14 2012 18:43 dabom88 wrote:On April 14 2012 18:36 m0ck wrote:On April 14 2012 18:31 windsupernova wrote:On April 14 2012 18:30 m0ck wrote:
[quote]
Was that the reason last season as well? And the season before that, and the one before that? This is circular logic, the zergs don't advance because they don't play well, again and again, season after season. Why do you think that is, that zergs continually don't 'play well'. Could it have something to do with the way the race plays compared to the other two? And be reflective of an issue of balance? But Zergs won last GSL...... Yes, zergs can win, we're talking probabilities here, but the broader picture tells a different story. The champion of last season now plays the first round of code A, after all.. Because he played terribly. You can't possibly say those games DRG lost were because of a balance issue if you watched them. "..but the broader picture tells a different story.." I was arguing against a particular used to dismiss any balance-concerns. Particulars are how you find balance issues. Balance is dependent on both maps and builds and one must use individual games that are BOTH played at a high level to determine if there is in fact an issue. I completely disagree. Your memory and judgement of particular matches are so subjected to your beliefs (bias) that they mean almost nothing when held up against statistics. Imbalance exist in statistics, not in particulars. Particulars are stories, and they can be used to mean (almost) anything. They can be useful in the exploration of the reason for (i)balance, however. Individual games are the ONLY way to look at balance because they are the only way to figure out solutions. How do you think players overcame DRGs 2 base muta into double expand build, they watched replays brainstormed solutions and came up with a counter to it. Its the same way zergs figured out how to hold off various protoss 2 base attacks then protoss would look at that replay and see what new thing he could come up with. This is how you come up with solutions and it is how you shoud watch a game to see if there is an issue Good luck with that approach if you ever plan to do any kind of serious scentific research about anything I origanally deleted my first paragraph but if you are bringing science into it ill explain why you cant scientificaly do it as an experiment without using individual games. The biggest problem with doing it scientifically of course is that all things are not equal. The only thing you can possibly isolate as a constant is each map. So if we take each map as the constant and isolate the experiment to code S games on each map and set the time frame at 8 weeks since anything longer and the current game woudl be to different to draw anything meaningful. So we go 8 weeks of a certain MU on a certain map and we still wind up with a sample size to small to draw anything meaningful so we are forced again to watch individual games and draw conclusions based on them. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of high level games are the practice games we dont get to see at all and you have to much to draw anything based on GSL beyond that certain maps are bad at certain matchups like TvZ on antiga and PvT on Daybreak.
Oh ok, didn't notice that
However, I think you overestimate the sample size of most research. What do you mean by things are not equal? What things? of course apart from the obvious "one thing is always somehow different from another thing that is different". But I kinda need to know what things you are talking about. You use maps as some kind of "constant" (???). Scientifically, you wouldn't even nessecarily need to use the same map if you just want to have a general sense of what is going on. If you, however, wanted to know specifically about a certain map, then yes, you'd need samples only from that one map, but that is not what we'd want here. You'd just have to state something like "Given the current mappool of x and x and x map, you can see that overall x is doing better than y.
You are basically saying "you can't do a research on all women, because women are different from each other". But that is the beauty of research that with proper preparing and good enough calculated sample size and arguements why it's okay to group things in a certain way, then we can still learn about it even though all women aren't equal. We just learn about the group of women and not the individual ones.
This is science too...you just have to realise what kind of result you are getting and not concluding outside of this. Most of the time when doing a research you have an ideal way to do it and then you have the way that is possible to do. Then you can take that result and try to put it into perspective of other results and theories and argue why it might apply in other circumstances, as long as you know that this is you arguing your results in perspective.
And that is why you don't have to argue balance from individual games...
In the sceinticfic world, arguing anything from an idividual case is considered a weak study. It is still used though, because sometimes you have cases that are very very rare and you are therefore unable to make a wider and better study.
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I am disapointed by Nestea's performance and shocked bye the result of game 2 - he didn't fail his attack and the bust worked (opponent droping heavy in supply and worker) but it looked like the bitter reality: if you zerg you cant do cheese vs T or you will get destroyed in the aftermath even without your opponent scouting it - terrible terrible thing. Everytime Virus went for double drop Nestea failed defending it very sad...
Now with all the swarm brothers eliminated only July and Leenock carring the flag of Zerg but not only this they are also the last players to save the GSL from becoming the nonsense again it was in the last year (with awfull games) as imo every other Matchup then ZvZ and ZvT (and TvT o0) is based on maxing out on 2-3 base and fight (maybe if marineking is playing toss its a bit different but thats another story). Judging by last tournament result I have to count the old good of war out in the next round  and Leenock maybe barely making it to round of 8!??? In any case: I can tell I am horrified by the results of this round of 32 and maybe I am biased but I dont want to watch games without zerg.
Many ppl mention ZvT as their favorite matchup - so its not only about my biase towards the race I play. This GSL might also be another episode like GSTL where Blizzard can observe their own faults in the whole game designe aspect. With a strong 1 A army and a farily Micro dependend bio Terran arsenal you can tell what unit will be dominating this seasons matches -.- even if their place belonges somewhere else then the greates SC2 league... (maybe flashes worst nightmares or simpl the garbage).
Edit: THIS IS NO QUESTION OF BALANCE. It is a question of gamedesign and also to be honest of quality (player wise) and of chance (as it cant be on purpose no Z goes fourther in this season).
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Australia18228 Posts
On April 14 2012 20:48 blacklist_member wrote:
Anyone have any idea who the 4th player that gets a first pick tomorrow is going to be? Since there is a tie for 4th place in the rankings among MKP, MVP and oz..
Liquipedia says its MKP... any idea why?
That's my bad, had assumed (from reading an interview?) that MarineKing was going to be choosing without actually looking at the rankings.
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Isn't it guna be Genius MC Parting ( because they have the highest points ) then because the rest tied will revert to 2011 so MVP will be chosen?
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Poland485 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:09 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 19:06 Adreme wrote:On April 14 2012 19:05 Belha wrote:On April 14 2012 18:00 LimitSEA wrote:
Two zergs in Code S. Jesus, this is just sad. Why this never happened to terran -.-" Probably because a ridiculous amount of most teams high level playesr are terran. With the exception of oGs and Zenex I think all 8 other teams have a high level terran not to mention that now multiple foreign teams are getting high level terrans. But the question is WHY are there so many more Top Terrans then Top Zergs and Protosses since the Release of the game? In the ladder the races are splitted very equally.
Protoss is catching Terran currently. IMO it's becasue lower skill cap for Zerg.There is no much in terms of micro to improve on so for Zerg, foreign scene level is closer to Korean scene than in Protoss and especially Terran case. Arguably Zerg is most succesfull race for non Korean scene. Also in Korea races are no splitted equally. There is only around 24% Zerg players on ladder (comparing to over 27% in all regions)
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On April 14 2012 21:29 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 19:09 roym899 wrote:On April 14 2012 19:06 Adreme wrote:On April 14 2012 19:05 Belha wrote:On April 14 2012 18:00 LimitSEA wrote:
Two zergs in Code S. Jesus, this is just sad. Why this never happened to terran -.-" Probably because a ridiculous amount of most teams high level playesr are terran. With the exception of oGs and Zenex I think all 8 other teams have a high level terran not to mention that now multiple foreign teams are getting high level terrans. But the question is WHY are there so many more Top Terrans then Top Zergs and Protosses since the Release of the game? In the ladder the races are splitted very equally. Protoss is catching Terran currently. IMO it's becasue lower skill cap for Zerg.There is no much in terms of micro to improve on so for Zerg, foreign scene level is closer to Korean scene than in Protoss and especially Terran case. Arguably Zerg is most succesfull race for non Korean scene. Also in Korea races are no splitted equally. There is only around 24% Zerg players on ladder (comparing to over 27% in all regions)
Skill cap arguments only make sense when the race in question plays perfectly, and still loses.
When Zerg players are making horrendous mistakes all over the place, skill cap is completely irrelevant.
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yepp, this is now the worsth code s season to date
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Whoever put MKP as first pick in group B in the RO16 is wrong.
Parting is the first pick in group B, highest ranked than anyone else on par with MC.
But Parting went 1st, 4-1 in his group where MC went 2nd, 5-2 in his group.
Genius -A
Parting -B
MC -C
Even points: MKP, MVP, Supernova and Oz.
MKP has a 4-1 mapscore like Supernova, but MKP has a better mapscore in both Season 1 RO32 and RO16 compared to Supernova.
MKP also has better 2011 ranking points than Supernova.
Whichever tiebreaker they use to determine who's first, MKP has the lead
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banelings should really get a slight speed boost, esp on creep imo.
can't really kill decent controlled marines. let alone decent controlled POSITIONED marines <.<
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AW YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH, Virus <3 I'm so happy right now, really impressed that MC took out NesTea as well. Grats!
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4 Startale players in Ro16, no Slayers
who would have thought that 1-2 months ago
(also 2 Liquid players, putting them 2nd together with ogs, Prime and FXO)
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Iceland211 Posts
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On April 14 2012 21:15 Destroyr wrote:I am disapointed by Nestea's performance and shocked bye the result of game 2 - he didn't fail his attack and the bust worked (opponent droping heavy in supply and worker) but it looked like the bitter reality: if you zerg you cant do cheese vs T or you will get destroyed in the aftermath even without your opponent scouting it - terrible terrible thing. Everytime Virus went for double drop Nestea failed defending it very sad... Now with all the swarm brothers eliminated only July and Leenock carring the flag of Zerg but not only this they are also the last players to save the GSL from becoming the nonsense again it was in the last year (with awfull games) as imo every other Matchup then ZvZ and ZvT (and TvT o0) is based on maxing out on 2-3 base and fight (maybe if marineking is playing toss its a bit different but thats another story). Judging by last tournament result I have to count the old good of war out in the next round and Leenock maybe barely making it to round of 8!??? In any case: I can tell I am horrified by the results of this round of 32 and maybe I am biased but I dont want to watch games without zerg. Many ppl mention ZvT as their favorite matchup - so its not only about my biase towards the race I play. This GSL might also be another episode like GSTL where Blizzard can observe their own faults in the whole game designe aspect. With a strong 1 A army and a farily Micro dependend bio Terran arsenal you can tell what unit will be dominating this seasons matches -.- even if their place belonges somewhere else then the greates SC2 league... (maybe flashes worst nightmares or simpl the garbage). Edit: THIS IS NO QUESTION OF BALANCE. It is a question of gamedesign and also to be honest of quality (player wise) and of chance (as it cant be on purpose no Z goes fourther in this season).
Am I the only one who can't make any sense out of this post?
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The 2 best Zergs in the world are out (and in Code A), I see few chances for at least 1 zerg in ro8.
This is sad.
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damn, leenock is going to get picked by a protoss.
luckily july can probably avoid zvzs!
going to put all my ladderpoints on july.
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On April 14 2012 23:11 Angry.Zerg wrote:
The 2 best Zergs in the world are out (and in Code A), I see few chances for at least 1 zerg in ro8.
This is sad.
Well, arguably the best ZvT (Leenock imo, if you ever saw his series against MVP, Jiakji, and MMA recently) is still in it. Only problem is his ZvP, but according his interview he finds it easy in practice. Hope he finally shines in that match-up too.
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On April 14 2012 19:09 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 19:06 Adreme wrote:On April 14 2012 19:05 Belha wrote:On April 14 2012 18:00 LimitSEA wrote:
Two zergs in Code S. Jesus, this is just sad. Why this never happened to terran -.-" Probably because a ridiculous amount of most teams high level playesr are terran. With the exception of oGs and Zenex I think all 8 other teams have a high level terran not to mention that now multiple foreign teams are getting high level terrans. But the question is WHY are there so many more Top Terrans then Top Zergs and Protosses since the Release of the game? In the ladder the races are splitted very equally.
nvm
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Welll Virus f*** you, because of you we will have only 2 zerg in the ro16 -_-
ps : well in fact I can't really blame a player for winning...but still I am annoyed :'(
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EPT
