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m0ck
4194 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:43 dabom88 wrote: Because he played terribly. You can't possibly say those games DRG lost were because of a balance issue if you watched them. "..but the broader picture tells a different story.." I was arguing against a particular used to dismiss any balance-concerns. | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
Against Protoss they can play Bio very cost efficiantly with their Micro. The good thing is that good forcefields can couter good micro which makes this matchup very intense and well balanced imho. Against Zerg they can Drop soo cost efficiantly. Zerg won't be able to push out while getting dropped at serveral expansions. Currently it seems like it is pretty much impossible for Zerg to be one expo ahead, as the Terrans can get away with such greedy playstyles because of drops. Another factor is the impossibility of Zerg to attack into a good Siegeline without Broodlords. Every Zerg army get melted down by a defensive Terran. I'm not saying it is impossible for Zerg to win this matchup but it's impossible to win it constantly. Because you are reluctant on mistakes by the Terran, like sieging to late or not repairing the PF fast enough. Protoss has a little bit harder time. As I said PvT is quite balanced. I would say the same thing for PvZ. Although Zerg have a hard time currently, as Protoss began to figure out how to beat DRG/Stephano Style. I think it will be very interesting to see how this matchup will evolve. The thing is that there is NO Zerg Style again which can, when properly executed beat high-level protosses constantly. But the same thing can be said for Protoss in the matchup as it seems like that if two players of the same skill meat it ends up in BL/Infestor versus Archon Toilet. Whole matchup depends on 2-4 seconds in which the vortex gets thrown down or not thrown down. That makes the lategame very close, but also a bit coinflippy as you sometimes just CAN'T avoid the vortex to get most of your BL's or the Neural Parasite to get your mothership. Of course it can be said that the MU is quite balanced then, but it's quite bad that it has quite a luck factor in the lategame. Zerg currently has the hardest time in pro play. The reasons for this I explained in the 2 paragraphs before this. In addition to that the mirror matchup TvT is the one less luck based. ZvZ and PvP are quite similiar are I think although my knowledge of PvP is a lil bit off tbh. Well that's atleast the feeling I have of current balance. Of course this doesn't matter at all in ladder. But in tournements it seems like Zerg is the weakest race. And the fact that they "don't play well" isn't a result of the lack of skill they have but more of a lack of possibilities they have in some parts of the game. There is just NO playstyle Zerg can pull of so that the luck factor is as small as Terran can get it. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:03 Asha` wrote: So R16 = 7P (out of 10) 7T (out of 15) 2Z (out of 7) 1 bad season. Protoss has put up with 6-7 of that kind of representation. Welcome to club  You have a ways to go before you can really feel disenfranchized. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:36 m0ck wrote: Yes, zergs can win, we're talking probabilities here, but the broader picture tells a different story. The champion of last season now plays the first round of code A, after all.. If DRG plays like he did in Ro32 code S then he wont make it back to code S. Having to play well to win isnt circle logic its just common sense. One of the problems that zerg has now is the problem protoss had a few seasons ago and that was that the current feild of protoss was not as good as the protoss who were up and coming. The current zergs in code S are July who has good ZvT okay ZvP and BAD and Leenock who is good at all matchups except ZvP. These zergs have been in code S consistantly and have stayed in Code S consistantly but in reality there just arent as many Code S zergs. We are talking about close to 50 people who really deserve to be or are around the skill level to be in code S and probably around 30-35 current players who had a chance at Ro16 and probably only around 15-20 players who even have skill level to make a run at a championship. When you are dealing with such numbers you are likely to see some descripancy between the races. For example about a year ago the only protoss who was even close to championship calibur was MC. Everyone else was lightyears behind him in terms of both micro and his ability to take safe risks that dont look safe but when you try to cheese him he holds. Now several protoss have reached his level and because of that the chance at a protoss championship is higher. From someone who watched BW for years I dont accept one race being harder than other as a reason that you can not win when you had to deal with a lot more just to deal with the games technical limitations I will say. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:50 m0ck wrote: "..but the broader picture tells a different story.." I was arguing against a particular used to dismiss any balance-concerns. Particulars are how you find balance issues. Balance is dependent on both maps and builds and one must use individual games that are BOTH played at a high level to determine if there is in fact an issue. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:56 tdt wrote: 1 bad season. Protoss has put up with 6-7 of that kind of representation. Welcome to club You have a ways to go before you can really feel disenfranchized.3, 5, 3, 3, 2 last 5 ro16 in code S | ||
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
Zerg had mutalisks to do damage, but the problem is that they have been used since beta and the top pros now how to deal with them with ease now, which makes it difficult for them to work Nydus worm would be a good solution to this if it wouldn't die to 3 workers, being uncancel-able and do the biggest scream allover the map. I don't see why Nydus worm has to be so bad compared to medivacs / warp-prism. Zerg drops almost A LOT more all-in than a toss/terran drop. Because the zerg has to drop more units than the other races to do equal damaage (that's how the swarm race works basically) | ||
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HQuality
2682 Posts
they lost because they was playing quite worse then opponents. Not like it's 1-1-1 and noone knows how to stop it 4wgp in pvp earlier etc etc | ||
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:56 tdt wrote: 1 bad season. Protoss has put up with 6-7 of that kind of representation. Welcome to club You have a ways to go before you can really feel disenfranchized.Do your research before you say 1 bad season please :/ | ||
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gedatsu
1286 Posts
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:00 LimitSEA wrote: Two zergs in Code S. Jesus, this is just sad. Why this never happened to terran -.-" | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
Probably because a ridiculous amount of most teams high level playesr are terran. With the exception of oGs and Zenex I think all 8 other teams have a high level terran not to mention that now multiple foreign teams are getting high level terrans. | ||
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:06 Adreme wrote: But the question is WHY are there so many more Top Terrans then Top Zergs and Protosses since the Release of the game? In the ladder the races are splitted very equally.Probably because a ridiculous amount of most teams high level playesr are terran. With the exception of oGs and Zenex I think all 8 other teams have a high level terran not to mention that now multiple foreign teams are getting high level terrans. | ||
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dabom88
United States3483 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:50 m0ck wrote: "..but the broader picture tells a different story.." I was arguing against a particular used to dismiss any balance-concerns. It makes no sense to say you're arguing "broadly" and then try to use a specific instance that doesn't support your argument. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:09 roym899 wrote: But the question is WHY are there so many more Top Terrans then Top Zergs and Protosses since the Release of the game? In the ladder the races are splitted very equally. The top players will all probably say one of two things if you ask them, either "I picked terran at the start of the game when terran was very strong" or something along the lines of "I idolized Nada/Boxer" | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
Everyone is saying he played awful, so I guess he deserved it, but I just really him to return to god mode again, he looked close at IPL. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:02 Adreme wrote: Particulars are how you find balance issues. Balance is dependent on both maps and builds and one must use individual games that are BOTH played at a high level to determine if there is in fact an issue. I completely disagree. Your memory and judgement of particular matches are so subjected to your beliefs (bias) that they mean almost nothing when held up against statistics. Imbalance exist in statistics, not in particulars. Particulars are stories, and they can be used to mean (almost) anything. They can be useful in the exploration of the reason for (im)balance, however. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:10 Ventor wrote: MC 2-0'd stephano at the beginning of this year. MC would dominate Stephano even harder than he did nestea. Stop being a fanboy and ignoring statistics. I swear, it seems like every foreigner is trying to live vicariously through their favorite foreigner players. MC is arguablly the best player in the world (check his bank account) and by far best PvZ it wouldnt even be close. We'll see soon enough at fightclub though where they face off. Stephano is good vs European Protoss but MC is a whole nuther ball of wax. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:09 dabom88 wrote: It makes no sense to say you're arguing "broadly" and then try to use a specific instance that doesn't support your argument. I'm saying, statistics of results tells us that there is an issue of balance. I'm saying, a tournament win does nothing to change that. I don't see how DRG falling to code A undercuts that argument. | ||
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