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lol Artosis still trying to say Mech is the only way to play TvT
No wonder he doesn't talk much about MMA
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Sure, MorroW plays the game and knows a ton more than any other poster in this thread, but I hiiiiighly doubt that every pro (who practices as much as MorroW, and likely knows the game as well as him) agrees with him. We see professional players balancing whining in favor of their race all the time, and to me, that tells me that despite how much they know about the game, pros are only human and are thus subject to the same pitfalls of bias as any other person is. Honestly, I'd love to see perhaps a section of TL forums that only allows pros to post so we can actually see them debate balance instead of just having random pros wander into LR threads and balance whine under the justification that they play and understand the game a ton more than other posters in the thread. It just causes a dumb shitstorm, every time.
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Jjakji getting cursed by Artosis....
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TvT's tasteless?!
The most were TvP's
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On February 08 2012 20:05 Rhedsa wrote:
Jjakji getting cursed by Artosis....
ok, then I'm blaming it on artosis if jjakji loses
if jjakji wins I call it my blessing
:D
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Jjakji needs to winn and just 1-1-1 follow by 2-2-2 and 3-3-3 to kill Parting
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37058 Posts
JJAKJI!!! COME ON DO THIS!!!
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On February 08 2012 20:04 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 20:03 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 19:55 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 19:50 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 19:46 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 19:39 MorroW wrote:
no pro players want to give feedback or post in these forums because not its not always what you want to hear. and then you all come bashing
daybreak and metropolis are too long distances to punish something like this
you cant give the 15cc argument because 1rax expo gives a weaker followup than 15cc. thats why people go 15cc rofl, because the econ kicks in more quickly. then you get you extra raxes and geysers more quickly. you dont understand basic rts or tvp build.
toss scouts 15cc, grabs 2 nexuses, then goes onwards to not barely be able to defend, nope, he goes on to almost go kill protoss that was constantly building units on 2bases
you guys should realize me being in this game 12 hours a day for over a year knowing and talking to almost all pros plus practicing these gsl maps regularly, dont you think i should know the timings and find the flaws better than you?
its silly some tosses just come at me here just because they are defending their race
if you want feedback and pros opinions, the good and bad comes in a pack. im not gonna sit here and obliviously say "great timing on that 2base protoss" every time we watch gsl. please realize they can play macro oriented, they dont have to play like this. but they almost play like this exclusively because its more easy and they are more successful with it. So when pro Protoss players said you can't hold a 1-1-1 were they right? When Protoss said you can't stop Mutas in ZvP were they right? When Terran said you couldn't stop Infestor/BroodLord were they right? When Zerg said you couldn't stop the Protoss deathball were they right? Pro's always whine about balance they have a long, long history in this game of calling strategies broken and crying/whining about the game when the same strats were later just figured out when players played vs them more. And then shit gets patched. For what it's worth 1/1/1 is still damn effective against P even after patches, Destiny managed to knock Mana and HasuObs out of IPL TAC with mass muta despite winning $700 in his SC2 career and Blizzard introducing a new unit in HotS specifically to deal with muta. Thorzain got destroyed by Stephano's late game ZvT Infestor / Broodlord earlier this month despite killing Stephano's Hive during the game. Simply check the Shoutcraft Invitational final game 1. I'll give you one though, ZvP late game is now pretty Z favoured baring archon toilet. So because the strats still work they're imbalanced? The point was pro players would regularly consider these builds unbeatable but they got figured out and now they're just one of many solid strats than sometimes win and sometimes don't. There is a difference between things being "figured out" and map pool changes / balance patches. If the game hadn't been patched a lot and xel naga caverns / steppes of war were still standard tournament maps people would still say it was imbalanced. Let me try and explain as best I can... You go CC first to get the best economy early. This allows the P to throw down triple nexus while going for this power sentry build. Even if it's scouted the length of the maps these days means by the time T production has really kicked in they can't go over and pressure it. In return even though P has barely got the economic benefit of his third base the warp gate mechanic means the map distance is irrelevant for him. Forcefielding away SCVS and army when they are on a base less than you with two bunkers is crazy. So, what does T do... not go CC first? Right, so now P scouts with their probe you're going 1 rax gasless FE, tech barely comes any faster with that but I guess they could decide to not throw down a third and simply play a more standard game. P scouts 1 rax then gas before CC. They definitely don't make the third and get a robo. Subsitute the words Marine, Marauder and Medivac with Roach, Hydra and Corruptor and you have Zerg six months ago. Mvp, Jjakji, MMA, Bomber, Puma and Polt will figure it out,
ye they will mech it happen....
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On February 08 2012 20:03 Elem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 20:02 Inflicted_ wrote:On February 08 2012 20:01 Asymmetric wrote:On February 08 2012 19:58 Shellshock1122 wrote:
MMA, MC, aLive, Puzzle, Parting, Gumiho, Genius, and MKP is what I want the top 8 to be Would be pretty depressing if Nestea/DRG can't give us atleast 1 zerg representative in the round 8. Yeah. Needs to be: MMA vs aLive MC vs NesTea GuMiho vs Puzzle GanZi/Jjakji vs DRG  Sorry bro but NesTea won't advance. ;o Genius got dat shit.
Well, maybe, but if Genius lives up to his reputation you can never ever count on him being consistent.
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On February 08 2012 20:05 HolyArrow wrote:
Sure, MorroW plays the game and knows a ton more than any other poster in this thread, but I hiiiiighly doubt that every pro (who practices as much as MorroW, and likely knows the game as well as him) agrees with him. We see professional players balancing whining in favor of their race all the time, and to me, that tells me that despite how much they know about the game, pros are only human and are thus subject to the same pitfalls of bias as any other person is. Honestly, I'd love to see perhaps a section of TL forums that only allows pros to post so we can actually see them debate balance instead of just having random pros wander into LR threads and balance whine under the justification that they play and understand the game a ton more than other posters in the thread. It just causes a dumb shitstorm, every time.
I totally agree with you, sir.
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On February 08 2012 20:04 Inflicted_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 20:03 Elem wrote:On February 08 2012 20:02 Inflicted_ wrote:On February 08 2012 20:01 Asymmetric wrote:On February 08 2012 19:58 Shellshock1122 wrote:
MMA, MC, aLive, Puzzle, Parting, Gumiho, Genius, and MKP is what I want the top 8 to be Would be pretty depressing if Nestea/DRG can't give us atleast 1 zerg representative in the round 8. Yeah. Needs to be: MMA vs aLive MC vs NesTea GuMiho vs Puzzle GanZi/Jjakji vs DRG Sorry bro but NesTea won't advance. ;o Genius got dat shit. But the match-ups would suck. Maybe: MC vs DRG Jjakji vs Genius
MKP is gonna cut Genius into pieces ^^
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United States97276 Posts
Team Liquid fans might want Jjakji to win this series. If Ganzi loses, he has to play the winner of Jyp vs Line/Hero. Hero has a legit shot of making it to that game and has a much better chance of beating Ganzi than Jjakji in bo3 (yes i know hero just beat jjakji in a bo9 but Ganzi is way worse tvp)
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On February 08 2012 20:03 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:55 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 19:50 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 19:46 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 19:39 MorroW wrote:
no pro players want to give feedback or post in these forums because not its not always what you want to hear. and then you all come bashing
daybreak and metropolis are too long distances to punish something like this
you cant give the 15cc argument because 1rax expo gives a weaker followup than 15cc. thats why people go 15cc rofl, because the econ kicks in more quickly. then you get you extra raxes and geysers more quickly. you dont understand basic rts or tvp build.
toss scouts 15cc, grabs 2 nexuses, then goes onwards to not barely be able to defend, nope, he goes on to almost go kill protoss that was constantly building units on 2bases
you guys should realize me being in this game 12 hours a day for over a year knowing and talking to almost all pros plus practicing these gsl maps regularly, dont you think i should know the timings and find the flaws better than you?
its silly some tosses just come at me here just because they are defending their race
if you want feedback and pros opinions, the good and bad comes in a pack. im not gonna sit here and obliviously say "great timing on that 2base protoss" every time we watch gsl. please realize they can play macro oriented, they dont have to play like this. but they almost play like this exclusively because its more easy and they are more successful with it. So when pro Protoss players said you can't hold a 1-1-1 were they right? When Protoss said you can't stop Mutas in ZvP were they right? When Terran said you couldn't stop Infestor/BroodLord were they right? When Zerg said you couldn't stop the Protoss deathball were they right? Pro's always whine about balance they have a long, long history in this game of calling strategies broken and crying/whining about the game when the same strats were later just figured out when players played vs them more. And then shit gets patched. For what it's worth 1/1/1 is still damn effective against P even after patches, Destiny managed to knock Mana and HasuObs out of IPL TAC with mass muta despite winning $700 in his SC2 career and Blizzard introducing a new unit in HotS specifically to deal with muta. Thorzain got destroyed by Stephano's late game ZvT Infestor / Broodlord earlier this month despite killing Stephano's Hive during the game. Simply check the Shoutcraft Invitational final game 1. I'll give you one though, ZvP late game is now pretty Z favoured baring archon toilet. So because the strats still work they're imbalanced? The point was pro players would regularly consider these builds unbeatable but they got figured out and now they're just one of many solid strats than sometimes win and sometimes don't. There is a difference between things being "figured out" and map pool changes / balance patches. If the game hadn't been patched a lot and xel naga caverns / steppes of war were still standard tournament maps people would still say it was imbalanced. Let me try and explain as best I can... You go CC first to get the best economy early. This allows the P to throw down triple nexus while going for this power sentry build. Even if it's scouted the length of the maps these days means by the time T production has really kicked in they can't go over and pressure it. In return even though P has barely got the economic benefit of his third base the warp gate mechanic means the map distance is irrelevant for him. Forcefielding away SCVS and army when they are on a base less than you with two bunkers is crazy. So, what does T do... not go CC first? Right, so now P scouts with their probe you're going 1 rax gasless FE, tech barely comes any faster with that but I guess they could decide to not throw down a third and simply play a more standard game. P scouts 1 rax then gas before CC. They definitely don't make the third and get a robo. Exactly... there is no way for Terrzn to open up without being behind protoss.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
Game One on Bel'Shir Beach
In the bottom right is  Ganzi
In the top left is JJakji
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On February 08 2012 20:06 SolidMustard wrote:
MKP is gonna cut Genius into pieces ^^
I fear that MKP and Genius will both advance
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On February 08 2012 20:05 HolyArrow wrote:
Sure, MorroW plays the game and knows a ton more than any other poster in this thread, but I hiiiiighly doubt that every pro (who practices as much as MorroW, and likely knows the game as well as him) agrees with him. We see professional players balancing whining in favor of their race all the time, and to me, that tells me that despite how much they know about the game, pros are only human and are thus subject to the same pitfalls of bias as any other person is. Honestly, I'd love to see perhaps a section of TL forums that only allows pros to post so we can actually see them debate balance instead of just having random pros wander into LR threads and balance whine under the justification that they play and understand the game a ton more than other posters in the thread. It just causes a dumb shitstorm, every time.
Uh...
morrow doesn't play T other than TvZ to avoid mirror matchup though
...
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On February 08 2012 19:53 Noktix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:50 Notfragile wrote:On February 08 2012 19:42 Noktix wrote:On February 08 2012 19:39 MorroW wrote:
no pro players want to give feedback or post in these forums because not its not always what you want to hear. and then you all come bashing
daybreak and metropolis are too long distances to punish something like this
you cant give the 15cc argument because 1rax expo gives a weaker followup than 15cc. thats why people go 15cc rofl, because the econ kicks in more quickly. then you get you extra raxes and geysers more quickly. you dont understand basic rts or tvp build.
toss scouts 15cc, grabs 2 nexuses, then goes onwards to not barely be able to defend, nope, he goes on to almost go kill protoss that was constantly building units on 2bases
you guys should realize me being in this game 12 hours a day for over a year knowing and talking to almost all pros plus practicing these gsl maps regularly, dont you think i should know the timings and find the flaws better than you?
its silly some tosses just come at me here just because they are defending their race
if you want feedback and pros opinions, the good and bad comes in a pack. im not gonna sit here and obliviously say "great timing on that 2base protoss" every time we watch gsl. please realize they can play macro oriented, they dont have to play like this. but they almost play like this exclusively because its more easy and they are more successful with it. It isn't your job to bitch about imbalance, It is your job to show amazing games and work out ways to beat it. Instead of sitting on this forum and explaining why it's impossible, how about you practice your ass off and become an innovator. I lose respect for every single pro i see do this... Don't you even feel the least bit of shame saying this? I am not going to discuss why your comment is plain dumb (more work =/ results if there is a racial imbalance, gimmicky strat. Think of the early 1-1-1 days and all the protoss pro gamer JUSTIFIED tears) I am just saying that comments like this should be flamed by the rest of the community. A pro does not have "immunity" to comments from us, it's just... you are flaming someone in codeA level for not being good enough. Who the fuck are you to do that, sir? The fuck? When did i say anything about Morrow specifically? He is a great player who i completely respect. When did i say he wasn't good enough? If you have trouble with a race, a strategy, ANYTHING, practice and innovate. Don't bitch about imbalance. That is the point i'm making.
He said he's practicing 12 hours a day and came here to share his opinion/knowledge on a very specific concept with us. Now you get here to tell him he's not practicing enough and came here to whine. What the fuck, dude? I'm glad Morrow is still active on a forum. Though I'm afraid he won't be much longer because of people like you. You can only practice so much on a given day. Stop this generic bullshit about "everything is balanced, don't worry about it".
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
YEEAAAAAAHHHHH MMMMMCCCCCC BOOOSSSSS TOOSSSSS. Come on Jjakji, we need another Terran in Ro8 (tee hee!)
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On February 08 2012 20:05 HolyArrow wrote:
Sure, MorroW plays the game and knows a ton more than any other poster in this thread, but I hiiiiighly doubt that every pro (who practices as much as MorroW, and likely knows the game as well as him) agrees with him. We see professional players balancing whining in favor of their race all the time, and to me, that tells me that despite how much they know about the game, pros are only human and are thus subject to the same pitfalls of bias as any other person is. Honestly, I'd love to see perhaps a section of TL forums that only allows pros to post so we can actually see them debate balance instead of just having random pros wander into LR threads and balance whine under the justification that they play and understand the game a ton more than other posters in the thread. It just causes a dumb shitstorm, every time.
MorroW plays Zerg and then plays Terran against Zerg to avoid playing a ZvZ mirror. What does he have to personally gain from a TvP balance point? Nothing.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37058 Posts
On February 08 2012 20:06 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Team Liquid fans might want Jjakji to win this series. If Ganzi loses, he has to play the winner of Jyp vs Line/Hero. Hero has a legit shot of making it to that game and has a much better chance of beating Ganzi than Jjakji in bo3 (yes i know hero just beat jjakji in a bo9 but Ganzi is way worse tvp)
Liquibets > Team Liquid fans
Almost all the time
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EPT
