|
On February 14 2012 07:23 JPoPP wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:
[quote]
Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league".
If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited?
I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game". ok to explain 6 pool can be a legit cheese mma lost to it in the korean winter mlg qualification BUT Lucky used a drone to blockt eh wall off. that is how you can win playing a 6 pool. When you 6 pool 2 times in a row with out trying to do anything about blocking the wallin in the ZvT matchup its subpar and very very suboptimal people aren't watching pros to watch bad play and people throwing games by doing subpar early rushes
And honestly even then ppl may have sympathized with idra for being on tilt, but there's the further context of not responding to glhf or gg'ing in any of the games. It's not any one thing that caused the outcry here.
|
On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:
[quote]
really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game".
Common sense exists. Use it.
|
On February 14 2012 07:10 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. There are organisations that have the discretionary power to punish Idra regardless. In this case both NASL and EG have ways to come to an arrangement. EG does have the power to punish Idra and can easily get him to forfeit his second place prize and NASL can pressure EG too since they organize leagues and showmatches that EG might want to participate in. There is no real need to have laws for some arbitrary lack of respect for a tournament as long as there is some sort of ethical standard that gets enforced by the organisations in the scene. And also, I read a blog by EGAlex once (I believe it's linked in this thread even) where he said he had a chat with Idra after the latter forfeited the semi-finals in a TL-open when playing Nerchio, because Alex felt that was going too far and wasn't like his other antics. Since Idra forfeited the prize money maybe Alex had another chat, though that's just speculation - it's not inconceivable NASL discussed this with just Idra, until Xeris or EG tells us we won't know (and it's not super important I guess).
If a player is to be punished for executing a certain strategy then I agree it's the team that should hold him her responsible.
My fear (and point) is that it would be a very screwed up thing if we look up to the tournaments to punish players for executing strategies they don't deem fit for the very simple reason that no TvZ, PvZ or ZvZ in NASL would ever have to factor in a potential sixpool from the opponent in the case this strategy was banned from play.
But also if one were to consider the situation for players in general – having tournaments with indiscriminate powers to punish whomever they want for whatever reason would also be terrible for the players and their security.
My attempt was to abstract this dicussion from the Idra example to question the use of power by tournaments.
|
On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:
[quote]
really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game".
We do not need rules to define every aspect of everything. It was pretty clear idrA didn't give a shit (he didn't gg, didn't try whatsoever with his six pools, etc), and nasl called him on it. Maybe if idrA had released a statement explaining why he did those things this would be debatable.
But he didn't, because he knows the nasl is right.
If anyone is ruining the sport it is idrA, not the nasl
|
On February 14 2012 07:28 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:
[quote]
Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league".
If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited?
I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game". Common sense exists. Use it.
This dudes rant reminds me of people who have taken their first 100 level Philosophy class and believe they can reason anything out using MEGALOGIX and gross exaggeration.
|
Didn't have time to catch this the other night so I decide to watch the VODs. Really wished I had spoiled it for myself so I wouldn't have wasted my time watching those games  Really hope that idrA improves/returns to form because it really is sad and disappointing watching him in his current state. Unfortunate that NASL had this happen to them, but its a near guarantee the next show match will be huge improvement upon this one.
|
On February 14 2012 07:29 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:
[quote]
Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league".
If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited?
I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game". We do not need rules to define every aspect of everything. It was pretty clear idrA didn't give a shit (he didn't gg, didn't try whatsoever with his six pools, etc), and nasl called him on it.
So basically you think there are a set of builds that players should be punished for executing but NASL shouldn't tell them which.
Fine, but I don't agree with that.
|
On February 14 2012 07:35 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:28 Bagi wrote:On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:
[quote]
but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon.
They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. "
If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show.
i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game". Common sense exists. Use it. This dudes rant reminds me of people who have taken their first 100 level Philosophy class and believe they can reason anything out using MEGALOGIX and gross exaggeration.
Why don't you tell me where I'm wrong instead of making snarky remarks like a little b
User was warned for this post
|
Professional gamer, you're kidding right.
|
dam idra
is korea helping him at all?
or has he just spent months getting cheesed, leaving games early, and tiliting?
sucks to see EG and mainly idra and HuK in slumps
EH fighting
|
Idra needs to take 6-pool lessons from Bad Habit.
|
Sigh, i hope tournaments stop inviting him for a year or so...
|
On February 14 2012 07:39 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:35 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 07:28 Bagi wrote:On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:
[quote]
Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then.
And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament.
I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO.
I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary.
You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game". Common sense exists. Use it. This dudes rant reminds me of people who have taken their first 100 level Philosophy class and believe they can reason anything out using MEGALOGIX and gross exaggeration. Why don't you tell me where I'm wrong instead of making snarky remarks like a little b
Because you take a situation in which a player CLEARLY doesn't give a fuck and gets punished for executing a poorly hidden "Naniwa" and you proceed to claim that this sets a precedent in which NASL can revoke a champions prize money because he smells. If you don't think this is the most hilarious leap in logic then there is no hope of reasoning with you anyways.
|
On February 14 2012 07:47 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:39 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:35 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 07:28 Bagi wrote:On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:
[quote]
You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this.
What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game". Common sense exists. Use it. This dudes rant reminds me of people who have taken their first 100 level Philosophy class and believe they can reason anything out using MEGALOGIX and gross exaggeration. Why don't you tell me where I'm wrong instead of making snarky remarks like a little b Because you take a situation in which a player CLEARLY doesn't give a fuck and just executes a poorly hidden "Naniwa" and you proceed to claim that this sets a precedent in which NASL can revoke a champions prize money because he smells. If you don't think this is the most hilarious leap in logic then there is no hope of reasoning with you anyways.
If NASL warrant themselves the power to punish players for executing builds which haven't been specified then NASL can effectively punish players for anything – I'm sorry that my colourful example blocked your ability to take part of the crux of the argument.
If Idra can be punished for executing a poorly hidden "Naniwa" can we then punish people for executing a poorly hidden "Idra"?
– as in let's say an 8 pool or a 4 gate?
|
On February 14 2012 07:55 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:47 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 07:39 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:35 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 07:28 Bagi wrote:On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:
[quote]
What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney?
So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money".
These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game". Common sense exists. Use it. This dudes rant reminds me of people who have taken their first 100 level Philosophy class and believe they can reason anything out using MEGALOGIX and gross exaggeration. Why don't you tell me where I'm wrong instead of making snarky remarks like a little b Because you take a situation in which a player CLEARLY doesn't give a fuck and just executes a poorly hidden "Naniwa" and you proceed to claim that this sets a precedent in which NASL can revoke a champions prize money because he smells. If you don't think this is the most hilarious leap in logic then there is no hope of reasoning with you anyways. If NASL warrant themselves the power to punish players for executing builds which haven't been specified then NASL can effectively punish players for anything – I'm sorry that my colourful example blocked your ability to take part of the crux of the argument. If Idra can be punished for executing a poorly hidden "Naniwa" can we then punish people for executing a poorly hidden "Idra"? – as in let's say an 8 pool or a 4 gate?
No because you forget the most important part of this whole situation.
CONTEXT
|
On February 14 2012 07:39 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:35 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 07:28 Bagi wrote:On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:
[quote]
Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then.
And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament.
I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO.
I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary.
You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game". Common sense exists. Use it. This dudes rant reminds me of people who have taken their first 100 level Philosophy class and believe they can reason anything out using MEGALOGIX and gross exaggeration. Why don't you tell me where I'm wrong instead of making snarky remarks like a little b
First place you are wrong is purely semantics, but you want prize money not price money. Price is what you pay for goods prize denotes a winning.
Where you are right: There must be clearly defined rules.
Where you are wrong: You have no idea what the rules are or who decided that the prize money would be forfeited. I think it is great that he forfeited the prize. I doubt it was his decision, but perhaps it was his team's. Perhaps they saw that his level of play was a disgrace and they demanded that he forfeit the prize or face further punitive measures within their organization. Perhaps they said give back the money or publicly apologize and he chose to give back the money. You are wrong in assigning blame and assuming that no rules were given to the players before the games were played. While you may be trying to use this example to create a debate over the powers of a tournament, you are arguing with people who are speaking specifically of these four games. I doubt their is anyone who would argue decisions made on a whim by tournament organizers is bad for the scene and most likely illegal.
If I said I would pay you 10€ to mow my lawn and you mow it, but miss a section, we will come to an amicable decision, I give you 8 € or you come back to finish your job. One must infer some decision was made behind closed doors. What was said, we will never know, but you cannot assign blame based on partial evidence.
|
So many weird opinions here. I mostly agree IdrA tilted. But the outrage is idiotic! Friggin idiotic! Lucky can double 6 pool MMA (yeah MMA), and eliminate him from the mlg qualifiers. But if IdrA does it, without typing gg (when does he ever gg when he doesnt have to ... think about it) ... and he looses ... then shitstorm on every sc2 forum. People are dumb. Especially alot of sc2 fans.
|
On February 14 2012 07:38 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:29 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:
[quote]
but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon.
They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. "
If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show.
i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game". We do not need rules to define every aspect of everything. It was pretty clear idrA didn't give a shit (he didn't gg, didn't try whatsoever with his six pools, etc), and nasl called him on it. So basically you think there are a set of builds that players should be punished for executing but NASL shouldn't tell them which. Fine, but I don't agree with that.
Wow, I'm done. Way to actually read my post before spouting off the crap.
|
Idra should go back to practice against hard AI until he gets a 50% winrate there
|
On February 14 2012 08:07 Ravnemesteren wrote:
So many weird opinions here. I mostly agree IdrA tilted. But the outrage is idiotic! Friggin idiotic! Lucky can double 6 pool MMA (yeah MMA), and eliminate him from the mlg qualifiers. But if IdrA does it, without typing gg (when does he ever gg when he doesnt have to ... think about it) ... and he looses ... then shitstorm on every sc2 forum. People are dumb. Especially alot of sc2 fans.
You really have no idea what's going on do you : /
You're ethier incredibly ignorant or trolling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
