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Has Idra responded? Has NASL made any comment regarding this?
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On February 14 2012 06:50 morevox wrote:
Has Idra responded? Has NASL made any comment regarding this?
nasl says idra has forfeited his $100 and they will reconsider inviting him to future special events.
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On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this.
What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney?
So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money".
These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL.
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On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL.
There shouldn't need to be a rule. When someone throws a match due to indifference, it is so fucking obvious that no rule is needed. If IdrA did just 1 six-pool, we could chalk it up to frustration/tilt. But 2 in a row shows that he clearly didn't care at all about the games, and thus shouldn't be awarded anything for "playing" them.
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On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL.
No one cares about your technicalities. Everyone (you included) knows Idra was raging and just throwing the games, there is no burden of proof in a Starcraft tournament.
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Thank you very much for posting these 
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ppl should really watch the video first before arguing whether if 6pool is viable strategy.its all about the context.
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On February 14 2012 06:54 ClysmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. There shouldn't need to be a rule. When someone throws a match due to indifference, it is so fucking obvious that no rule is needed. If IdrA did just 1 six-pool, we could chalk it up to frustration/tilt. But 2 in a row shows that he clearly didn't care at all about the games, and thus shouldn't be awarded anything for "playing" them.
Not to mention that in this community, unmerited action of league towards player would result in huge backlash for the league. Showmatches tend to work via acclamation.
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On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL.
Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore
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On February 14 2012 06:50 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:44 Bellygareth wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. Apparently it's as easy as : it's Idra = he throws it. It's not Idra = it's legit he lost because he played bad. Game 3 was fine, common to proxy rax. Game 4 as well makes it highly questionable. Add in no gg ever makes it quite clearly not giving a fuck. Seriously, I don't understand megafans sometimes. No one is criticizing idra for trying to six pool. It's the context that creates the criticism.
I'm not a megafan. I'm not trying to excuse him. Just saying that the context doesn't make alive allins better than Idra's. In this thread people are assuming that Alive's cheese because successful makes it ok. When it made the first two games a mess as well. As a viewer I find as bad (in a showmatch) cheesing and winning and cheesing and losing.
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On February 14 2012 06:54 ClysmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. There shouldn't need to be a rule.
Allright cool. Then shouldn't NASL add a line like "There are a set amount of builds that we won't specify which if you execute during a tournament you will never be reinvited" somewhere on their site?
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On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore
Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules?
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On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that
There may not be any "no idra" signs at the next tournament, but I guarantee there'll be some "u sixpoll?" signs
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On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules?
How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese
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On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL.
There are organisations that have the discretionary power to punish Idra regardless. In this case both NASL and EG have ways to come to an arrangement. EG does have the power to punish Idra and can easily get him to forfeit his second place prize and NASL can pressure EG too since they organize leagues and showmatches that EG might want to participate in.
There is no real need to have laws for some arbitrary lack of respect for a tournament as long as there is some sort of ethical standard that gets enforced by the organisations in the scene.
And also, I read a blog by EGAlex once (I believe it's linked in this thread even) where he said he had a chat with Idra after the latter forfeited the semi-finals in a TL-open when playing Nerchio, because Alex felt that was going too far and wasn't like his other antics. Since Idra forfeited the prize money maybe Alex had another chat, though that's just speculation - it's not inconceivable NASL discussed this with just Idra, until Xeris or EG tells us we won't know (and it's not super important I guess).
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On February 14 2012 06:58 Bellygareth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:50 EtherealDeath wrote:On February 14 2012 06:44 Bellygareth wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. Apparently it's as easy as : it's Idra = he throws it. It's not Idra = it's legit he lost because he played bad. Game 3 was fine, common to proxy rax. Game 4 as well makes it highly questionable. Add in no gg ever makes it quite clearly not giving a fuck. Seriously, I don't understand megafans sometimes. No one is criticizing idra for trying to six pool. It's the context that creates the criticism. I'm not a megafan. I'm not trying to excuse him. Just saying that the context doesn't make alive allins better than Idra's. In this thread people are assuming that Alive's cheese because successful makes it ok. When it made the first two games a mess as well. As a viewer I find as bad (in a showmatch) cheesing and winning and cheesing and losing.
Both of alive's cheeses have macro game transitions. Both are often used to probe an opponent in series play, and both are normally defended, resulting in a macro game.
Hard to blame alive for trying to start the pressure right away only to have idra fail to defend it. Playing to win makes for the best games if both players are evenly skilled. I guess we should tell better players to try to let worse players win in showmatches...
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On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:
[quote]
Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine.
But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event.
This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese
How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue.
Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players.
If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing.
If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny".
Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game".
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On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:
[quote]
really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game".
This reminds me of the slippery slope of Everest...
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On February 14 2012 07:19 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:07 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:01 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:57 1Eris1 wrote:On February 14 2012 06:52 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:
[quote]
really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. What if someone attempts to make a "viable sixpool" but it looks like a "unviable sixpool" to you – should that player be stripped from his pricemoney? So the rule should be something like "If NASL deem a sixpool build being a result of "not giving a fuck" the player will never be reinvited to a future NASL event unless forfeiting his or hers price money". These kind of rules has the risk of being extremely arbitrary and will be put in effect whenever it suits the league that it'll be the players that'll take it up the rear. It's effectively "if I don't like what you're doing you'll be punished" – there's a reason why we specify laws very well IRL. Six pools become pretty unviable once you keep doing them after you fail. I wouldn't mind if idrA had done only one of them, but doing two in a row just shows he doesn't care anymore Ok, then it's: "sixpooling twice in a row = punishable offence" to the NASL rules? How stupid are you? It's the forfeiting that's the problem, not the fucking cheese How stupid are you? It's the arbitrary use of power that's the issue. Either you have specified rules OR you admit to having arbitrary powers to punish players. If the first is true then they have to list the specific builds that players can be punished for executing. If the latter is true then NASL can strip the pricemoney of the next NASL season 2 champion "because he smelled funny". Punishing players on a fucking whim whenever they feel like their sponsors didn't get their monies worth is pure bullshit if anyone cares for the integrity of the game. But listing strategies as punishable offences are stupid unless we want to completely revamp the "meta-game".
ok to explain
6 pool can be a legit cheese mma lost to it in the korean winter mlg qualification BUT Lucky used a drone to block the wall off. that is how you can win playing a 6 pool. When you 6 pool 2 times in a row without trying to do anything about blocking the wallin in the ZvT matchup its subpar. When you do the same subpar rush 2 times in a row your throwing games.
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On February 14 2012 06:10 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:18 Durp wrote:
This series reminds me of GSL Open Season 1. hahahaha But seriously, Incontrol or Alex needs to comment on this.
EG loves to lend their opinion to every other controvery under the sun but more than likely they will sweep this under the rug as yet another instance of "Greg being Greg."
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EPT
