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On February 14 2012 06:15 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:00 Stiluz wrote:
When Alive cheeses it's clever play to get into IdrA's head, when IdrA cheeses it's bad sportsmanship... Wtf Xeris? Pretty much sums up my thoughts. If the 6pools somehow won we wouldn't even be having this conversation at all, right? So all that matters is the results?
Those 6 pools would have never won thats the point... it was quite clear Idra had stop caring about the games, when isntead of trying to defend hellion properly he a moved drones through a small choke... Those 6 pools were horridly executed mixed with terrible decision making. I don't understand how people are actually defending/can't see the difference here? Alive used viable strats. He actually could have transitioned out of the hellion build(Had 2nd base constant scv production, hellios give map control/deny third etc.) Where as Idra poorly/blindly 6 pooled with little to no micro, continued pumping lings instead of droning even after seeing the wall up in the second game. Could have transitioned out of it the first time because he did kill scvs and forced Alive to move his base etc. but decided to do a second even worse all in....
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On February 14 2012 06:07 Noocta wrote:
So, i missed the whole thing.
Can someone resume everygame, even very briefly ? ( from the thread, i guess that wont be long to write )
Game 1 (Belshir): Alive goes triple bunker rush and the game ends in 4:30 or so.
Game 2 (Daybreak): Alive expands into 2 fact reactor hellion, Idra doesn't scout or prepare any hellion defense, and just sort of dies.
Game 3 (Crossfire): Idra 6 pools while Alive goes proxy rax in his own natural. Alive clearly has experience with this situation because he builds a bunker between the rax and the natural minerals, floats his CC over there, and resumes mining like nothing had happened. Idra tries to 1 base roach all-in but Alive scouts it and builds marauders.
Game 4 (Dual Sight): Idra 6 pools again. At the exact time the pool goes down, Alive types in chat, "u sixpoll?" and easily defends the rush because he walled off. No "gg" from Idra in any game.
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On February 14 2012 06:13 dani` wrote:
aLive was using strategies which work wonders against IdrA, it would be stupid if he wouldn't have used them. You can even argue it's not 'cheese' vs IdrA, i.e. a coin flip. It's a strategy which works 80% of the time vs him if not more, and if it doesn't the game goes on because you will deal massive damage either way.
Anyone wanting to play to win against IdrA will cheese him in the first game
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On February 14 2012 06:21 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:13 dani` wrote:
aLive was using strategies which work wonders against IdrA, it would be stupid if he wouldn't have used them. You can even argue it's not 'cheese' vs IdrA, i.e. a coin flip. It's a strategy which works 80% of the time vs him if not more, and if it doesn't the game goes on because you will deal massive damage either way. Anyone wanting to play to win against IdrA will cheese him in the first game
Yup, it's obviously his biggest weakness by far so why shouldn't you capitalize on it? It's a strategy game after all 
Still pretty surprised that Idra can't handle this considering that terrans have been doing this vs him for over a year now?
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On February 14 2012 06:23 gullberg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:21 bonifaceviii wrote:On February 14 2012 06:13 dani` wrote:
aLive was using strategies which work wonders against IdrA, it would be stupid if he wouldn't have used them. You can even argue it's not 'cheese' vs IdrA, i.e. a coin flip. It's a strategy which works 80% of the time vs him if not more, and if it doesn't the game goes on because you will deal massive damage either way. Anyone wanting to play to win against IdrA will cheese him in the first game Yup, it's obviously his biggest weakness by far so why shouldn't you capitalize on it? It's a strategy game after all Still pretty surprised that Idra can't handle this considering that terrans have been doing this vs him for over a year now?
It's a showmatch....
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On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not.
but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon.
They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. "
If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show.
i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that
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Idra must be the most overpayed SC2 player ever.
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I don't think that aLive was really expecting his 2-factory hellion play to kill IdrA outright in game 2, but it did.
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Okay guys this is a really simple concept but apparently a lot of people don't understand it which causes them to attempt to justify 6 pooling and no micro probe rushing.
If a tournament is paying you to play in their event they expect you to perform whatever you consider to be the build/style that has the highest chance for victory on the map, vs that race, vs that player in the context of that series.
There is no way on earth you will ever convince me or anyone else that Idra felt that 6 pooling twice vs Terran on 2 player maps filled that criteria.
As such he is not upholding his side of the deal and doesn't deserve the money for the showmatch. I don't expect you to put on a show with fake macro games I expect you to try and win as best you can. Alive did that, Idra absolutely did not.
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On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future.
there are ways to six pool a Terran that can work
There are ways for a Terran to transition out of 11/11. What idra did is basically 11/11 no micro a-move and stop building scvs/don't expand behind the 11/11.
It's not like when lucky six pooled mma. Execution tells the story of intent.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On February 14 2012 06:32 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. there are ways to six pool a Terran that can work There are ways for a Terran to transition out of 11/11. What idra did is basically 11/11 no micro a-move and stop building scvs/don't expand behind the 11/11. It's not like when lucky six pooled mma. Execution tells the story of intent.
Not watching much SC2 so just out of curiosity: what could lucky have done against a wall-in?
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On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that
Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then.
And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament.
I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO.
I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary.
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i don't know what to say... i'm disappointed with myself for watching the rebroadcast.
worst showmatch ever? props to NASL and alive.
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On February 14 2012 06:32 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. there are ways to six pool a Terran that can work There are ways for a Terran to transition out of 11/11. What idra did is basically 11/11 no micro a-move and stop building scvs/don't expand behind the 11/11. It's not like when lucky six pooled mma. Execution tells the story of intent.
I'm not arguing wether the sixpool is viable or not.
I'm arguing wether we should have a board of NASL people who judges which build is viable and which build isn't.
I'm arguing that if it is punishable to sixpool in NASL then they should clarify that in the tournament / showmatch rules.
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On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary.
You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this.
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On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this.
Apparently it's as easy as : it's Idra = he throws it. It's not Idra = it's legit he lost because he played bad.
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On February 14 2012 06:34 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:32 EtherealDeath wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. there are ways to six pool a Terran that can work There are ways for a Terran to transition out of 11/11. What idra did is basically 11/11 no micro a-move and stop building scvs/don't expand behind the 11/11. It's not like when lucky six pooled mma. Execution tells the story of intent. Not watching much SC2 so just out of curiosity: what could lucky have done against a wall-in?
Try to delay wall in with drones.
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On February 14 2012 06:44 Bellygareth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. Apparently it's as easy as : it's Idra = he throws it. It's not Idra = it's legit he lost because he played bad.
Uhm no, not jsut because its Idra.... did you watch those games? Alives cheeses were calculated well executed and he could have transitioned out of them if he needed too. Idra blindly 6 pooled with little to no micro, terrible decision making and poorly executed. It's easy for any one to see he threw those games away.
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On February 14 2012 06:44 Bellygareth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:39 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:35 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:26 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:11 Snotling wrote:On February 14 2012 06:06 theJob wrote:On February 14 2012 06:01 Snotling wrote:
nobody is banning him, but the will think twice before they invite him to a showmacht again. not the same ting. and totally justified Well, it seems like that you can choose to play the showmatch without sixpooling and everything is fine. But if you choose to sixpool you have to give up the pricemoney for NASL to consider inviting you to a future event. This should be in the rulebook so that no missunderstandings occur in the future. really? even idra doesnt defend his actions (as we can se by him giving back the money). why do you? Because arbitrary use of power to punish players is bad. And yes, it IS arbitrary if the prerequisit for being punished is "failing to please the league". If Idra was somehow able to punish Alive for his early gamepushes – would that mean that Alive would have been the one to have to forfeit pricemoney to be considered being reinvited? I don't defend Idra for his actions but I defend his right to do them UNLESS it's stated in the rules that he's not. but the point is: nobody is punishing him. there wont be any NO-IDRA sings on tournaments anytime soon. They just said "we may reconsider inviting him to SPECIAL events in the future. " If someone pays for a SHOWmatch, its his right to invite the players who provide the best show. and idra didnt provide a good show. i realy dont get how anyone could have a problem with that Having to give up the pricemoney to be considered to being invited into special events in the future. If that's not a special kind of punishment then I'd have to say that this tournament treats its loosers pretty bad in general then. And sure, I'm not arguing wether NASL does or doesn't have the right to invite whoever they want to their tournament. All I'm saying is that judging from the application of NASL tournament rules – you can be punished (in the form of having to forfeit pricemenoy) for doing certain builds in their tournament. I'm also saying that I think this is very bad because there should be no "10 minute no attack" in SC2 IMO. I'm also saying that unless they specify WHICH BUILDS then the application of this rule willl be arbitrary. You can't specify which builds because a well executed 6 pool is viable, what Idra did is not. It's very, very easy to tell the difference between some one cheesing because they think it can win and some one cheesing because they don't give a fuck. Idra clearly didn't care, threw away the games, was BM the entire showmatch and was therefore punished for it. I see nothing wrong with this. Apparently it's as easy as : it's Idra = he throws it. It's not Idra = it's legit he lost because he played bad.
Game 3 was fine, common to proxy rax. Game 4 as well makes it highly questionable. Add in no gg ever makes it quite clearly not giving a fuck.
Seriously, I don't understand megafans sometimes. No one is criticizing idra for trying to six pool. It's the context that creates the criticism.
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EPT
