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On January 31 2012 00:22 DilemmaEu wrote:Show nested quote +Do you have any proof on that ?
To me it seems it's as much Stephano's fault as ONOG, player is at fault for not managing his time well, ONOG is at fault for not doing their job, ie organizing the event.
For those who say he was a little tired and it wasn't a reason to forfeit, you've no idea what you are talking about. To play at this level for hours is exhausting, and it comes a time where the mind just cannot deal with the informations and take the right decisions, and you end up in a tilt, playing in autopilot, and it can endanger your health (no kidding).
And the right to forfeit should indeed be absolute. As long as you're ready to live with the consequences, you're free to do whatever you want in the boundaries of the law, be it not going to school / to your job / not playing a final at 2 AM. Well it is an american run tournament on the NA server funded by NA barcrafts so I would imagine that it doesn't take a genius to work out that the finals are going to be about 10-11pm in america...
Yeah, and 10 PM => 2 AM is quite different from 11 PM => 4 AM.
As I said, both are in fault for not planning this beforehand, you can hardly put all the blame on Stephano.
The supposed right to tell your boss that you're tired. - This is a luxury enjoyed by some at work, true, but quite rare and impossible to imagine where professionals are concerned. A doctor cannot leave a man bleeding to death because he is tired, a university lecturer cannot choose to not teach/supervise because he is tired, etc. because they are the only people that can do it. If you're the only one to fill a role, and Stephano was the only one suitable at this point, then it's your responsibility to push yourself. What he did through his own actions was laughably petty compared to the doctors out there chugging drugs to keep themselves awake. And a pretty good indication how his future career as a doctor will end...
Wrong examples. In most if not all the jobs you described, there are global rules that prevent people to practice when they are too tired. This is why surgeons cannot operate for more than a fixed amount of hours per day / week / month, etc. Because it endangers not only their lives, but those of their patients too.
As SC2 is quite new in the global professional scheme of things, there are no global rule yet nor global organisation, so players are those who fix the limits. Stephano thought he reached his, and bailed out.
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On January 31 2012 00:29 Kahlgar wrote:
btw did anybody mention why ONOG wanted the games to be played live instead of casting replays (thus avoiding any issues like this one)?
They offered to cast from replays, Stephano logged off instead.
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On January 31 2012 00:29 Kahlgar wrote:
btw did anybody mention why ONOG wanted the games to be played live instead of casting replays (thus avoiding any issues like this one)?
At least for me casting live makes the whole thing much more exciting to watch. Nevertheless ONOG offered Stephano to play Kas right after his match vs Illusion in order to solve the issue. They would have casted those game with the replays after the 3rd place match. Stephano declined and went offline.
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On January 31 2012 00:31 Ylrahc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:22 DilemmaEu wrote:Do you have any proof on that ?
To me it seems it's as much Stephano's fault as ONOG, player is at fault for not managing his time well, ONOG is at fault for not doing their job, ie organizing the event.
For those who say he was a little tired and it wasn't a reason to forfeit, you've no idea what you are talking about. To play at this level for hours is exhausting, and it comes a time where the mind just cannot deal with the informations and take the right decisions, and you end up in a tilt, playing in autopilot, and it can endanger your health (no kidding).
And the right to forfeit should indeed be absolute. As long as you're ready to live with the consequences, you're free to do whatever you want in the boundaries of the law, be it not going to school / to your job / not playing a final at 2 AM. Well it is an american run tournament on the NA server funded by NA barcrafts so I would imagine that it doesn't take a genius to work out that the finals are going to be about 10-11pm in america... Yeah, and 10 PM => 2 AM is quite different from 11 PM => 4 AM. As I said, both are in fault for not planning this beforehand, you can hardly put all the blame on Stephano. Show nested quote +
The supposed right to tell your boss that you're tired. - This is a luxury enjoyed by some at work, true, but quite rare and impossible to imagine where professionals are concerned. A doctor cannot leave a man bleeding to death because he is tired, a university lecturer cannot choose to not teach/supervise because he is tired, etc. because they are the only people that can do it. If you're the only one to fill a role, and Stephano was the only one suitable at this point, then it's your responsibility to push yourself. What he did through his own actions was laughably petty compared to the doctors out there chugging drugs to keep themselves awake. And a pretty good indication how his future career as a doctor will end...
Wrong examples. In most if not all the jobs you described, there are global rules that prevent people to practice when they are too tired. This is why surgeons cannot operate for more than a fixed amount of hours per day / week / month, etc. Because it endangers not only their lives, but those of their patients too. As SC2 is quite new in the global professional scheme of things, there are no global rule yet nor global organisation, so players are those who fix the limits. Stephano thought he reached his, and bailed out.
The opposite, those were the right examples. Those are professions about which the word "professional" is most often used. And while a surgeon should have a replacement at hand for these cases, they need to take extreme care to work every second of their working hours because if they slip up, someone dies. But a normal doctor often works 20h a day without complaining, not because it's "regulations" but because it's the right thing to do. Which doesn't really compare to Stephano feeling a bit tired after choosing to schedule those 2 tournaments himself and choosing to accept the invitation while the information about its schedule was available to him. AAAAAAnd after delaying the tournament needlessly for an hour himself.
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On January 31 2012 00:29 Kahlgar wrote:
btw did anybody mention why ONOG wanted the games to be played live instead of casting replays (thus avoiding any issues like this one)?
Nope. Seems like the logical choice if your number one goal is to deliver the best possible content to your barcraft fan base. I mean the only reason the finals wasn't pushed back was for that number one goal to not be ruined (though let's be honest, if they pushed it back a night and hyped up a Kas and Stephano final - even off replays - I think they would have attracted quite the crowd to watch the game; I'm sure it would have included people that had not even considered going the night before). Seems stupid to me to penalize a player based your own poor planning but what can you do? I think in terms of other sports, any fan would tell you if the game can't be played at it's highest level I'd rather have it be pushed back, no matter how many buddies they had invited over to watch it.. Not like you can't do it again to actually enjoy a good game of baseball for example. If the weather made it impossible to play well, the game is delayed and eventually rescheduled. Because the most important thing should always be the entertainment from watching the game actually played, not half assed. So it seems to me they had two chances to make that happen, replays or reschedule. They chose neither, gave the barcrafters a piss poor excuse for a final, and cheated a player out of his rightful 2nd place prize money (the player they invited because they knew would personally attract more viewers than anybody else they had gotten).
Edit: To those that mentioned the offer of playing right away and casting off replays... Stephano already tweeted that he couldn't put on any kind of decent performance at the point in which he chose to log off. Why not play it the next day, get the replays, and cast it as a hyped finals at a good barcraft time? Or even play it live knowing the players can now rest up before it? Again building the hype to an already anticipated final between two of europes best.
Also like someone mentioned, Kas could have easily said "lol I'm not playing someone from the bronze metal game, my opponent forfeit, ok, I win.". He didn't but you see the issue with making up rules on the spot when clearly they were not layed out before. Pretty sure had they told stephano upfront before he said he was tired the consequence of the forfeit his decision could have actually been made with all the facts and rules present.. And who knows what it would have been?
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On January 31 2012 00:35 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:31 Ylrahc wrote:On January 31 2012 00:22 DilemmaEu wrote:Do you have any proof on that ?
To me it seems it's as much Stephano's fault as ONOG, player is at fault for not managing his time well, ONOG is at fault for not doing their job, ie organizing the event.
For those who say he was a little tired and it wasn't a reason to forfeit, you've no idea what you are talking about. To play at this level for hours is exhausting, and it comes a time where the mind just cannot deal with the informations and take the right decisions, and you end up in a tilt, playing in autopilot, and it can endanger your health (no kidding).
And the right to forfeit should indeed be absolute. As long as you're ready to live with the consequences, you're free to do whatever you want in the boundaries of the law, be it not going to school / to your job / not playing a final at 2 AM. Well it is an american run tournament on the NA server funded by NA barcrafts so I would imagine that it doesn't take a genius to work out that the finals are going to be about 10-11pm in america... Yeah, and 10 PM => 2 AM is quite different from 11 PM => 4 AM. As I said, both are in fault for not planning this beforehand, you can hardly put all the blame on Stephano.
The supposed right to tell your boss that you're tired. - This is a luxury enjoyed by some at work, true, but quite rare and impossible to imagine where professionals are concerned. A doctor cannot leave a man bleeding to death because he is tired, a university lecturer cannot choose to not teach/supervise because he is tired, etc. because they are the only people that can do it. If you're the only one to fill a role, and Stephano was the only one suitable at this point, then it's your responsibility to push yourself. What he did through his own actions was laughably petty compared to the doctors out there chugging drugs to keep themselves awake. And a pretty good indication how his future career as a doctor will end...
Wrong examples. In most if not all the jobs you described, there are global rules that prevent people to practice when they are too tired. This is why surgeons cannot operate for more than a fixed amount of hours per day / week / month, etc. Because it endangers not only their lives, but those of their patients too. As SC2 is quite new in the global professional scheme of things, there are no global rule yet nor global organisation, so players are those who fix the limits. Stephano thought he reached his, and bailed out. The opposite, those were the right examples. Those are professions about which the word "professional" is most often used. And while a surgeon should have a replacement at hand for these cases, they need to take extreme care to work every second of their working hours because if they slip up, someone dies. But a normal doctor often works 20h a day without complaining, not because it's "regulations" but because it's the right thing to do. Which doesn't really compare to Stephano feeling a bit tired after choosing to schedule those 2 tournaments himself and choosing to accept the invitation while the information about its schedule was available to him. AAAAAAnd after delaying the tournament needlessly for an hour himself.
And if he fucks up and someone gets hurt because he works more than he is authorized too (yes, it's regulated), then he is in big trouble and has to face the juridical consequences. I'm sorry my friend, but it's how it works. It's actually the same case as Stephano's, he can choose to do whatever he wants (work more than authorized / forfeit a tournament), but he has to face the consequences.
Only thing is that in Stephano's case, there is no global regulation, so players have to do it by themselves (ie stop playing when they think they are too tired)
I'm not saying Stephano shouldn't face the consequences (fine, no invite to further editions, etc), I'm just sick of the witch hunt of someone who was within in rights to act like he did, and he did it most probably to protect himself and to prevent viewers to watch horrid games. If the consequences are right or wrong is another subject, and considering they weren't planned beforehand (no rule in the ONOG book), they weren't so bad for either of the parties, even if I think something better could have been done (simili double bracket or smg).
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Yeah, and 10 PM => 2 AM is quite different from 11 PM => 4 AM.
As I said, both are in fault for not planning this beforehand, you can hardly put all the blame on Stephano.
Well PST is GMT -8.00 and EST is GMT -5.00
So actually I don't think you can say it's ONOG's fault at all. It would be impossible to make the time arrangements for everyone and as it was a Barcraft community driven event they sort of had to make it at a reasonable time for them...
So it falls to the players to choose which events they can commit to...
I can see what people mean when they say that the times for tournaments need to be best for as many people as possible but I don't think ONOG are to blame at all.
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On January 31 2012 00:32 Malaz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:29 Kahlgar wrote:
btw did anybody mention why ONOG wanted the games to be played live instead of casting replays (thus avoiding any issues like this one)? At least for me casting live makes the whole thing much more exciting to watch. Nevertheless ONOG offered Stephano to play Kas right after his match vs Illusion in order to solve the issue. They would have casted those game with the replays after the 3rd place match. Stephano declined and went offline.
I agree that live tournaments are more exciting but given that ONOG seems to have invested quite a bit in this tournament and that they don't seem that experienced in hosting events like this, it would have been much safer and smarter to play the games ~a week ago and just broadcast the replays last weekend.
As for Stephano, what he did is silly/disrespectful but he is a 18 (19?) years old kid, it was 3 AM and it is the tournament responsability to deal with players being flaky, bm or with random internet issues. It seems like ONOG wasn't ready to handle any of that, not sure if they plan to host any other tournament like this one but imo they have a lot to learn from that past weekend.
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On January 31 2012 00:22 Ghanburighan wrote:
b) The punishment of 600 dollars - this is a separate issue and I agree that the decision was arbitrary. But I think the correct way to do is to take away all money from Stephano. Why? Because players need to get money for playing.
rofl, he did play and won every match to get the 2nd place.
If you win ur semi-finals, your in the final. Its as easy as that.
This reverse (idiotic) way of thinking by MrBitter
"Kas didnt win the final
-> so hes not the winner
-> there needs to be a second player in the final, so there can be a winner
-> Stephano isnt here
-> so hes not a finalist"
is just completly wrong.
Sports and other competitions have a long tradition by the "normal", "forward" way of thinking. Thats why the brackets and prizemoney are always told before the tourney. As a player you can see how much money/points/.. you win for every victory in the bracketplay. You know that IF i win the semifinals i have 900dollars for sure (no matter what happens afterwards!). Thats how tournaments work, AND NOT ELSE.
Tournament Brackets are STATIC constructs, easy to understand! IF U WIN YOU ADVANCE. end of story.
Any organization that makes those brackets dynmaic, changing the seed of players just according to any invented rule, just should stop organising competitions.
Edit: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/One_Nation_of_Gamers_Starcraft_2_Invitational
Show this bracket without any additional notes to any person. He would not understand anything. Why? Because such stupid stuff is never happening! Exept when unprofessional ppl organize a tournament.
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On January 31 2012 00:54 krisss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:22 Ghanburighan wrote:
b) The punishment of 600 dollars - this is a separate issue and I agree that the decision was arbitrary. But I think the correct way to do is to take away all money from Stephano. Why? Because players need to get money for playing. + Show Spoiler +
rofl, he did play and won every match to get the 2nd place.
If you win ur semi-finals, your in the final. Its as easy as that.
This reverse (idiotic) way of thinking by MrBitter
"Kas didnt win the final
-> so hes not the winner
-> there needs to be a second player in the final, so there can be a winner
-> Stephano isnt here
-> so hes not a finalist"
is just completly wrong.
Sports and other competitions have a long tradition by the "normal", "forward" way of thinking. Thats why the brackets and prizemoney are always told before the tourney. As a player you can see how much money/points/.. you win for every victory in the bracketplay. You know that IF i win the semifinals i have 900dollars for sure (no matter what happens afterwards!). Thats how tournaments work, AND NOT ELSE.
Tournament Brackets are STATIC constructs, easy to understand! IF U WIN YOU ADVANCE. end of story.
Any organization that makes those brackets dynmaic, changing the seed of players just according to any invented rule, just should stop organising competitions.
It's easier to argue your point if you only quote half of someone's argument, isn't it? How about you keep on reading? The counter to your point is in my next lines that you failed to quote.
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So another player stands up for his rights and is again blamed by the community. If he is tired and does not want to play then he should not play and if he was in finals already then he rightfully should be awarded 2nd place. No idea how it can be right or legal to give him 4th place ( I have not read the tournament rules so I am so sure about what happens by tournament rules if player forfeits his match).
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On January 31 2012 00:59 andis35 wrote:
So another player stands up for his rights and is again blamed by the community. If he is tired and does not want to play then he should not play and if he was in finals already then he rightfully should be awarded 2nd place. No idea how it can be right or legal to give him 4th place ( I have not read the tournament rules so I am so sure about what happens by tournament rules if player forfeits his match).
Are you kidding?... This is a planned tournament that he agreed to play in and its shown in barcrafts live. If his to tired to play the final because his not good and planning his own time he should never have entered. You realy think its fine that he just logs off and dont care for those people waiting for him to play, its not like he aint getting payed to play from prize money and sponsors?.... Giveing him a 4th place is a gift, he shouldnt have gotten any money when entering tournament he cant finish.
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On January 31 2012 00:59 andis35 wrote:
So another player stands up for his rights and is again blamed by the community. If he is tired and does not want to play then he should not play and if he was in finals already then he rightfully should be awarded 2nd place. No idea how it can be right or legal to give him 4th place ( I have not read the tournament rules so I am so sure about what happens by tournament rules if player forfeits his match).
Don't think there were specific tournament rules unfortunately.
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On January 31 2012 00:59 andis35 wrote:
So another player stands up for his rights and is again blamed by the community. If he is tired and does not want to play then he should not play and if he was in finals already then he rightfully should be awarded 2nd place. No idea how it can be right or legal to give him 4th place ( I have not read the tournament rules so I am so sure about what happens by tournament rules if player forfeits his match).
The way that Mr. Bitter is stating things appear to be that Stephano signed off almost immediately after declining to do matches while 3rd and 4th was going on and having the replays played. Without communication, it is difficult for the tournament organizers to do anything moving forward. I would say that the punishment isn't solely for forfeiting, but for Stephano not cooperating in any way to help ONOG with the tournament.
I would hope that it isn't true though - Stephano should have given just a little bit of time to work things out, instead of just signing off.
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Why are the French so quick to jump down everybody's throat about this? Let's stop and be mature for a minute. Late night finals. It's bad time for euro. Euro says I'm tired and rage quits. You say he is okay to do this. I agree in fact that it's hard to play then. Therefore he should have been mature and asked to postpone, not been so dramatic and say my way or I ruin tournament. He once again proves he is not a professional. Strike 2 for stephano in maturity.
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On January 31 2012 01:07 TaKemE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:59 andis35 wrote:
So another player stands up for his rights and is again blamed by the community. If he is tired and does not want to play then he should not play and if he was in finals already then he rightfully should be awarded 2nd place. No idea how it can be right or legal to give him 4th place ( I have not read the tournament rules so I am so sure about what happens by tournament rules if player forfeits his match). Are you kidding?... This is a planned tournament that he agreed to play in and its shown in barcrafts live. If his to tired to play the final because his not good and planning his own time he should never have entered. You realy think its fine that he just logs off and dont care for those people waiting for him to play, its not like he aint getting payed to play from prize money and sponsors?.... Giveing him a 4th place is a gift, he shouldnt have gotten any money when entering tournament he cant finish.
Yes it is fine for him to stop playing when he doesnt/cant play anymore. And about what what penalty ( if any ) he receives by doing so should be written in tournament rules. If there is not anything then the tournament can not just give him 2nd place if he already managed to get to the finals, because all actions tournament takes against players should have legal justification behind them ( something that many starcraft tournaments lack nowadays).
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On January 30 2012 23:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 23:42 wklbishop wrote:
Are you really going to make the argument that because there wasn't that much of an audience, the audience doesn't matter that much??? Seriously, tournaments cater over to the audience at the end of the day, not to the players.
This is bullshit btw. Player star-power is what makes a tournament have a decent audience these days. It's probably about time tournaments started considering "hey, maybe it's a bad idea to schedule my finals for 2am onwards when it's very likely that the finalists of my tournament will be Europeans". Forcing players to play a BO7 at 2am indicates a fundamental organisational issue that needs addressing. Tournaments should first and foremost look after the players. Badly looked after players play poor games, which in turn affects the audience's enjoyment.
Can you come up with a time frame that is reasonable for players and to a lesser degree viewers from every continent, assuming a non-replay casted event? If there are no koreans it's obviously much easier.
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On January 31 2012 01:12 TyrionSC2 wrote:
Why are the French so quick to jump down everybody's throat about this? Let's stop and be mature for a minute. Late night finals. It's bad time for euro. Euro says I'm tired and rage quits. You say he is okay to do this. I agree in fact that it's hard to play then. Therefore he should have been mature and asked to postpone, not been so dramatic and say my way or I ruin tournament. He once again proves he is not a professional. Strike 2 for stephano in maturity.
...
You didn't read the thread, did you. He asked to postpone and didn't ragequit, ONOG refused considering it was an event streamed LIVE in BARCRAFTS, thus postponing wasn't a viable option (perfectly valid answer here). Then Stephano got offered the possibility to play Kas while Catz was playing Illusion, and streamers would use the replays after. He refused, said he didn't want to play any more that night and that he gave the win to Kas, then logged off and went to bed. Blunt, but nothing really wrong.
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On January 31 2012 01:12 TyrionSC2 wrote:
Why are the French so quick to jump down everybody's throat about this? Let's stop and be mature for a minute. Late night finals. It's bad time for euro. Euro says I'm tired and rage quits. You say he is okay to do this. I agree in fact that it's hard to play then. Therefore he should have been mature and asked to postpone, not been so dramatic and say my way or I ruin tournament. He once again proves he is not a professional. Strike 2 for stephano in maturity.
He did ask to postpone.. The quote is several pages back.. Why do you even post if you have no idea?
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On January 31 2012 00:41 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:29 Kahlgar wrote:
btw did anybody mention why ONOG wanted the games to be played live instead of casting replays (thus avoiding any issues like this one)? + Show Spoiler +
Nope. Seems like the logical choice if your number one goal is to deliver the best possible content to your barcraft fan base. I mean the only reason the finals wasn't pushed back was for that number one goal to not be ruined (though let's be honest, if they pushed it back a night and hyped up a Kas and Stephano final - even off replays - I think they would have attracted quite the crowd to watch the game; I'm sure it would have included people that had not even considered going the night before). Seems stupid to me to penalize a player based your own poor planning but what can you do? I think in terms of other sports, any fan would tell you if the game can't be played at it's highest level I'd rather have it be pushed back, no matter how many buddies they had invited over to watch it.. Not like you can't do it again to actually enjoy a good game of baseball for example. If the weather made it impossible to play well, the game is delayed and eventually rescheduled. Because the most important thing should always be the entertainment from watching the game actually played, not half assed.
So it seems to me they had two chances to make that happen, replays or reschedule. They chose neither + Show Spoiler +, gave the barcrafters a piss poor excuse for a final, and cheated a player out of his rightful 2nd place prize money (the player they invited because they knew would personally attract more viewers than anybody else they had gotten).
Edit: To those that mentioned the offer of playing right away and casting off replays... Stephano already tweeted that he couldn't put on any kind of decent performance at the point in which he chose to log off. Why not play it the next day, get the replays, and cast it as a hyped finals at a good barcraft time? Or even play it live knowing the players can now rest up before it? Again building the hype to an already anticipated final between two of europes best.
Also like someone mentioned, Kas could have easily said "lol I'm not playing someone from the bronze metal game, my opponent forfeit, ok, I win.". He didn't but you see the issue with making up rules on the spot when clearly they were not layed out before. Pretty sure had they told stephano upfront before he said he was tired the consequence of the forfeit his decision could have actually been made with all the facts and rules present.. And who knows what it would have been?
And now to quote you on the same page...
On January 31 2012 01:15 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:12 TyrionSC2 wrote:
Why are the French so quick to jump down everybody's throat about this? Let's stop and be mature for a minute. Late night finals. It's bad time for euro. Euro says I'm tired and rage quits. You say he is okay to do this. I agree in fact that it's hard to play then. Therefore he should have been mature and asked to postpone, not been so dramatic and say my way or I ruin tournament. He once again proves he is not a professional. Strike 2 for stephano in maturity. + Show Spoiler +The quote is several pages back.. Why do you even post if you have no idea?
This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Except that in your case, the answer was on the same page as well.
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