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On January 30 2012 23:52 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:54 Rowa wrote:
So you guys think stephano should have pulled a naniwa and 6pooled all the games of the finals ?
You gotta respect the dude for putting his health before the money, thats the right choice. Absolutely not. I have not respect for him at all. He destroyed the integrity of this tournament that too many people worked so hard to put together. You really think his health is at risk? He's a little tired. Don't be absurd.
Hey i take offence to that! he actually did 6 pool his games at dreamhack!
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On January 31 2012 00:10 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 23:52 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 14:54 Rowa wrote:
So you guys think stephano should have pulled a naniwa and 6pooled all the games of the finals ?
You gotta respect the dude for putting his health before the money, thats the right choice. Absolutely not. I have not respect for him at all. He destroyed the integrity of this tournament that too many people worked so hard to put together. You really think his health is at risk? He's a little tired. Don't be absurd. Hey i take offence to that! he actually did 6 pool his games at dreamhack!
U just won this thread hahahahahaha. Naniwa dropped the bomb
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Would you have preferred that he had played the finals and drone rushed every game (ironically he actually would have gotten more prize money for doing this). Come on, if Stephano did that it would have been much worse.
No I don't, I think he should have realised when the finals were going to be played and play the game. If Kas can do it I can see no good reason why Stephano couldn't have. I am not saying he should have drone rushed, but he left the final of a community driven event because he was tired, there is no excuse for that.
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On January 30 2012 23:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 23:42 wklbishop wrote:
Are you really going to make the argument that because there wasn't that much of an audience, the audience doesn't matter that much??? Seriously, tournaments cater over to the audience at the end of the day, not to the players.
This is bullshit btw. Player star-power is what makes a tournament have a decent audience these days. It's probably about time tournaments started considering "hey, maybe it's a bad idea to schedule my finals for 2am onwards when it's very likely that the finalists of my tournament will be Europeans". Forcing players to play a BO7 at 2am indicates a fundamental organisational issue that needs addressing. Tournaments should first and foremost look after the players. Badly looked after players play poor games, which in turn affects the audience's enjoyment.
You do know this was a tournament from Barcrafts? Ofcause he has to be at evening/night.
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Polt forfeit Zotac cup final this week. Why? Because he was on another event with better prize pool. Why there is no thread with 108 pages for this.???
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On January 30 2012 23:57 DilemmaEu wrote:
This is absolutely absurd. He signed up to the tournament knowing when the finals were going to be played.
Do you have any proof on that ?
To me it seems it's as much Stephano's fault as ONOG, player is at fault for not managing his time well, ONOG is at fault for not doing their job, ie organizing the event.
For those who say he was a little tired and it wasn't a reason to forfeit, you've no idea what you are talking about. To play at this level for hours is exhausting, and it comes a time where the mind just cannot deal with the informations and take the right decisions, and you end up in a tilt, playing in autopilot, and it can endanger your health (no kidding).
And the right to forfeit should indeed be absolute. As long as you're ready to live with the consequences, you're free to do whatever you want in the boundaries of the law, be it not going to school / to your job / not playing a final at 2 AM.
If Kas can do it I can see no good reason why Stephano couldn't have.
I don't know, maybe because he is not Kas ? Who knows, maybe his health is a bit more fragile and he wasn't physically able to play ?
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What was the reason given as to why the tournament couldn't be delayed until tonight? If it's because it was showing in Barcrafts, that's pathetic. There is tons of precedent in many sports for delaying matches when the game cannot be played at the highest level. There is, however, no precedent that I know of that allows a tournament to arbitrarily knock a player's finishing spot down because he forfeited. Sounds a lot like the organizers were just butthurt that Stephano forfeited, so they decided to punish him for it. I realize that fans are affected, but that's just something that comes with the territory of attending a live event. You don't see ridiculous outrage whenever a baseball game is delayed/postponed by rain and rescheduled for 3 months in the future. Obviously, it sucks, but it happens, and people realize and accept that. Sometimes I wonder if other sports went through this drama bullshit when they were first coming up. It's just so completely unnecessary.
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On January 30 2012 17:33 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 17:28 Corsica wrote:
I hope next time this tournament will think about players in Europe, and wont make them play at 3-5 am...learn from IEM, get normal times for everyone, dont say fu to players/viewers from Europe.... It's an online tournament with players from US, EU and Korea. The event can not be too early for NA viewers as it's a barcraft tournament. The players knew in advance when tournament would start and there were no delays resulting from tournament organizers. IEM is a live event and hardly airs at an ideal time for viewers of every single time zone, as that's not actually possible. I hope next time you post you will think what you are saying a bit more.
there was only 1 person playing from korea, obviously you know nothing about maximizing viewership. Starting at 12 am cet in sunday obviously decreases viewership by a lot. 5 pm for NA is not early at all... I just dont like the fact that they ignored a huge portion of eu audience...utilitarianism, then we would seen epic tvz with much bigger numbers, between kas and stephano, not boring 4-1 finals...
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On January 30 2012 23:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 23:42 wklbishop wrote:
Are you really going to make the argument that because there wasn't that much of an audience, the audience doesn't matter that much??? Seriously, tournaments cater over to the audience at the end of the day, not to the players.
This is bullshit btw. Player star-power is what makes a tournament have a decent audience these days. It's probably about time tournaments started considering "hey, maybe it's a bad idea to schedule my finals for 2am onwards when it's very likely that the finalists of my tournament will be Europeans". Forcing players to play a BO7 at 2am indicates a fundamental organisational issue that needs addressing. Tournaments should first and foremost look after the players. Badly looked after players play poor games, which in turn affects the audience's enjoyment.
I am certain that the organisers gave them the details about how the "general schedguel" would be (because u can't anticipate 1h long games perfectly well in tournaments). I am sure that players knew the "possible risks" involved if they play. With all these, they still accepted these conditions. Once u know the risks and accept them..u have to fulfill them. I never heard of a competition that pops up behind Player X and says "SURPRISE U PLAY AT 4 AM!!! HAPPY BDAY!!". They atleast know the start of the event, and considering the layout of the event/games they should know estimatively when they will play, if they go as far as the finals.
I think Stephano played before ONOG in Scan Invitational 3 right? He might have got tired from there...but that's not an excuse for accepting to play 2 events in the same day. He has to take responsability over his own decisions, specially when knowing the risks.
This competition was an INVITATIONAL....they invited Stephano. Stephano had the option of canceling the invitation if he didn't feel it would suit his time.
Also as other ppl said. This event was made by BarCrafts. All of them are in the US at the moment. That means u play during the time they actually have customers..it's common sence...and players 100% were informed about this before.
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On January 30 2012 23:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 23:42 wklbishop wrote:
Are you really going to make the argument that because there wasn't that much of an audience, the audience doesn't matter that much??? Seriously, tournaments cater over to the audience at the end of the day, not to the players.
This is bullshit btw. Player star-power is what makes a tournament have a decent audience these days. It's probably about time tournaments started considering "hey, maybe it's a bad idea to schedule my finals for 2am onwards when it's very likely that the finalists of my tournament will be Europeans". Forcing players to play a BO7 at 2am indicates a fundamental organisational issue that needs addressing. Tournaments should first and foremost look after the players. Badly looked after players play poor games, which in turn affects the audience's enjoyment.
They either:
1) Want a NA guy to win something.
2) Are geared towards their community and the best times for them.
Hopefully its the 2nd case.
But with all seriousnes i think setting a good time for a event that would be good for both the EU and NA is hard. You should know that the best. You invite the NA players to SHI.
Another note about stupid tournament times... Why do all NA tournaments have finals on sunday night. Those times are a killer for us working europeans. Even GSL does it right. Finals always on saturday.
On January 31 2012 00:13 DilemmaEu wrote:
No I don't, I think he should have realised when the finals were going to be played and play the game. If Kas can do it I can see no good reason why Stephano couldn't have. I am not saying he should have drone rushed, but he left the final of a community driven event because he was tired, there is no excuse for that.
You know that Kas is definetly not normal. He played the IEM Kiev like a boss with a broken (?) leg.
I'm sure in the near future we will learn that Kas is ex-Spetznas.
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On January 30 2012 23:19 krisss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 21:22 MrBitter wrote:On January 30 2012 21:08 Silvanel wrote:
You forget that forfeits happen all the time in variety of different sports, especialy individual. Its sad that it happened in finals, but what can You do....ONOG reaction wasnt the proper one. They should be happy that Kas is very mannered and agreed to play, he easily could say "lawl i am not going to play anyone but stephano, he isnt here? That means i win by default right?". We should be glad that players in this community are so mannered, but it wil harder and hareder the more money flows into e-sport. I've been staying pretty tight-lipped on this one, but I am going to go ahead and sound off in support of the ONOG decision. I'm going to rationalize it a little differently though. Kas and Stephano both won their semi-final matches. Stephano forfeited his spot in the final. This is not the same as Kas winning. We still had to hold our final. With Stephano out, the two "highest seeds" were Catz and Illusion. Those two played to determine who plays vs. Kas. The loser would play for 3rd place. Stephano was not there to play for 3rd, and thus forfeits, getting 4th. How is this wrong or unfair to anyone, save the viewers who were cheated out of a Kas vs Stephano final? This is some interesting way of thinking. If Djokovic broke his leg before the Aussie Open Finals, he would have been placed 4th place, according to ur new rules. Despite beating Murray in a world class semis, he would lose all his ATP points/prize money and ranking? Pathetic. You, as tournament organizers were just offended by the (yes, childish) behavior of Stephano, and were looking for a way to punish him and keep the tournament going. This are not and will never be common rules to handle such a situation, because its UNFAIR! You just invented rules to get what you want. And this is just ridiculous, and should NEVER happen. Not in sports, or anywhere else. Edit: i was always thinking that ur one of the smartest casters out there and had lots of respect for ur work. Please dont ruin it by defending some "uncommon, invented rules" 
forfeiting in the finals means losing the finals, thus getting second place.
made up punishments such as this make so much drama occur in the first place.
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On January 31 2012 00:10 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 23:52 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 14:54 Rowa wrote:
So you guys think stephano should have pulled a naniwa and 6pooled all the games of the finals ?
You gotta respect the dude for putting his health before the money, thats the right choice. Absolutely not. I have not respect for him at all. He destroyed the integrity of this tournament that too many people worked so hard to put together. You really think his health is at risk? He's a little tired. Don't be absurd. Hey i take offence to that! he actually did 6 pool his games at dreamhack!
Lol!
I was hoping Naniwa would chip in on the side of the tournament organizers, though. Considering how inspirational his words were on Live on Three after his own scandal.
On two points raised before:
a) The supposed right to tell your boss that you're tired. - This is a luxury enjoyed by some at work, true, but quite rare and impossible to imagine where professionals are concerned. A doctor cannot leave a man bleeding to death because he is tired, a university lecturer cannot choose to not teach/supervise because he is tired, etc. because they are the only people that can do it. If you're the only one to fill a role, and Stephano was the only one suitable at this point, then it's your responsibility to push yourself. What he did through his own actions was laughably petty compared to the doctors out there chugging drugs to keep themselves awake. And a pretty good indication how his future career as a doctor will end...
b) The punishment of 600 dollars - this is a separate issue and I agree that the decision was arbitrary. But I think the correct way to do is to take away all money from Stephano. Why? Because players need to get money for playing. If Illusion and Catz were to compete in the finals, they need an incentive for it. One cannot say, well, you get to play in the final, but if you get second, that money was taken by Stephano. It's even worse if they win against Kas, then Kas, doing nothing wrong, would have played a full tournament without getting money for it. So, the system should be that as the 3rd/4th place people get to the final, that send Stephano back (to ensure everyone who actually plays gets money). One could make the argument that this applies throughout the tournament and Stephano should be ultimately given the status that he never played. So, a forfeit should really come with a forfeit of proceedings. Were it a forfeit announced in beforehand, better solutions would have been available.
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Do you have any proof on that ?
To me it seems it's as much Stephano's fault as ONOG, player is at fault for not managing his time well, ONOG is at fault for not doing their job, ie organizing the event.
For those who say he was a little tired and it wasn't a reason to forfeit, you've no idea what you are talking about. To play at this level for hours is exhausting, and it comes a time where the mind just cannot deal with the informations and take the right decisions, and you end up in a tilt, playing in autopilot, and it can endanger your health (no kidding).
And the right to forfeit should indeed be absolute. As long as you're ready to live with the consequences, you're free to do whatever you want in the boundaries of the law, be it not going to school / to your job / not playing a final at 2 AM.
Well it is an american run tournament on the NA server funded by NA barcrafts so I would imagine that it doesn't take a genius to work out that the finals are going to be about 10-11pm in america...
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On January 30 2012 23:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 23:42 wklbishop wrote:
Are you really going to make the argument that because there wasn't that much of an audience, the audience doesn't matter that much??? Seriously, tournaments cater over to the audience at the end of the day, not to the players.
This is bullshit btw. Player star-power is what makes a tournament have a decent audience these days. It's probably about time tournaments started considering "hey, maybe it's a bad idea to schedule my finals for 2am onwards when it's very likely that the finalists of my tournament will be Europeans". Forcing players to play a BO7 at 2am indicates a fundamental organisational issue that needs addressing. Tournaments should first and foremost look after the players. Badly looked after players play poor games, which in turn affects the audience's enjoyment.
But if tournaments never catered to the audience at the beginning then player star power would never be developed in the first place, hell this is suppose to be for barcrafts in the U.S and you don't exactly go drinking in a bar in the morning. Of course you can also make the claim you said once again and it'll be something of a chicken and egg argument so I'll stop in that point.
What I would point out however is that if you ASSUME the finalists of a tournament will be Europeans and make the schedule way more accommodating for them then that's just extremely insulting to the NA players because upsets do happen and to say we don't expect you to make it in the way you suggest is just... bad.
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On January 31 2012 00:15 Yolpo wrote:
Polt forfeit Zotac cup final this week. Why? Because he was on another event with better prize pool. Why there is no thread with 108 pages for this.???
You really can't see the difference between a weekly online cup and a tournament that not only tried to promote barcrafts, but also raised the price money due to those barcraft events? People traveled to this barcraft event last night in order to see some nice games and Stephanos decides that he would rather go to bed. If Polt decides to skip the ZOTAC finals it's also a dick move towards the people running this tournament, but it doesn't effect fans in nearly the same way.
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On January 31 2012 00:18 templar rage wrote:
What was the reason given as to why the tournament couldn't be delayed until tonight? If it's because it was showing in Barcrafts, that's pathetic. There is tons of precedent in many sports for delaying matches when the game cannot be played at the highest level. There is, however, no precedent that I know of that allows a tournament to arbitrarily knock a player's finishing spot down because he forfeited. Sounds a lot like the organizers were just butthurt that Stephano forfeited, so they decided to punish him for it. I realize that fans are affected, but that's just something that comes with the territory of attending a live event. You don't see ridiculous outrage whenever a baseball game is delayed/postponed by rain and rescheduled for 3 months in the future. Obviously, it sucks, but it happens, and people realize and accept that. Sometimes I wonder if other sports went through this drama bullshit when they were first coming up. It's just so completely unnecessary.
Barcraft is not pathetic. And the reason why you don't see other sports demoting as punishment is because you do not search for it. Look up the latest Sumo scandal, Fifa vs. countries where player trading isn't enforced, etc. And the probable reason why other sports might have not gone through this stuff is because there players take their role seriously.
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On January 31 2012 00:13 DilemmaEu wrote:Show nested quote +Would you have preferred that he had played the finals and drone rushed every game (ironically he actually would have gotten more prize money for doing this). Come on, if Stephano did that it would have been much worse. No I don't, I think he should have realised when the finals were going to be played and play the game. If Kas can do it I can see no good reason why Stephano couldn't have. I am not saying he should have drone rushed, but he left the final of a community driven event because he was tired, there is no excuse for that.
Is there consistently run tournaments where the community isn't a driving force? You can make an argument that this tournament was more effected than some but still...
Do you hate Polt just as much as you hate stephano now? Is he also a shit bag? If you took the time to read any of the pages before you started posting you would have seen people mention that Polt did the same thing recently and no one threw a hissy fit. Look it up, it was a recent Zotac cup finals. Yes the finals! That he forfeit because of another tournament. Is he also unprofessional for signing up for both when he knew he MIGHT not be able to finish one?
The only argument no one seems to be able to put a dent in is the one someone made earlier about how every player should have the right to forfeit without a given reason. You should not NEED a reason, since everything is objective in terms of importance. If you don't give players that right then it encourages them to make up a reason the organizers deem fit/good enough (such as internet going out). Trust me, you don't want to open up that can of worms. Would you have been as happy as stephano 6 pooling if he just unplugged his Internet and said "whoops" the next day. "Hey sorry Internet went out.". I promise you if that was the case they either would have postponed the finals or given him 2nd place and hundreds of dollars more. You want to know why? If they didn't what do you think the community reaction would be?? "It's not his fault the internet died, he atleast deserves 2nd!". Thus encouraging every player from then on to just lie about why they forfeit (no personal or financial inscentive not to). That is why most/many people agree the player should have that right in my opinion.
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And tyler ? he did forfeit too..
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On January 30 2012 23:35 lazyfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 23:19 krisss wrote:On January 30 2012 21:22 MrBitter wrote:On January 30 2012 21:08 Silvanel wrote:
You forget that forfeits happen all the time in variety of different sports, especialy individual. Its sad that it happened in finals, but what can You do....ONOG reaction wasnt the proper one. They should be happy that Kas is very mannered and agreed to play, he easily could say "lawl i am not going to play anyone but stephano, he isnt here? That means i win by default right?". We should be glad that players in this community are so mannered, but it wil harder and hareder the more money flows into e-sport. I've been staying pretty tight-lipped on this one, but I am going to go ahead and sound off in support of the ONOG decision. I'm going to rationalize it a little differently though. Kas and Stephano both won their semi-final matches. Stephano forfeited his spot in the final. This is not the same as Kas winning. We still had to hold our final. With Stephano out, the two "highest seeds" were Catz and Illusion. Those two played to determine who plays vs. Kas. The loser would play for 3rd place. Stephano was not there to play for 3rd, and thus forfeits, getting 4th. How is this wrong or unfair to anyone, save the viewers who were cheated out of a Kas vs Stephano final? This is some interesting way of thinking. If Djokovic broke his leg before the Aussie Open Finals, he would have been placed 4th place, according to ur new rules. Despite beating Murray in a world class semis, he would lose all his ATP points/prize money and ranking? Pathetic. You, as tournament organizers were just offended by the (yes, childish) behavior of Stephano, and were looking for a way to punish him and keep the tournament going. This are not and will never be common rules to handle such a situation, because its UNFAIR! You just invented rules to get what you want. And this is just ridiculous, and should NEVER happen. Not in sports, or anywhere else. Edit: i was always thinking that ur one of the smartest casters out there and had lots of respect for ur work. Please dont ruin it by defending some "uncommon, invented rules" What a stupid comparison. Did stephano's house is on fire that prevent him from playing? His excuse for not playing the final is freaking tired. You ever tell your boss I'm going to home early cause I'm tired and just leave without permission. Did stephano show any freaking respect for all the hard work people is putting up.
I just applied the rules, described by MrBitter, to another Sports event. Read MrBitters post, then mine before commenting please.
And: you mean next time Stephano should just not be honest anymore? Just plug the cable and say next day the internet was down? forfeiting should be allowed, or not. But not punished, if the reason is, according to the audience/organisers, not good enough. Its funny how people, especially organizers (who should be objective!) just do random calls depending on the situation and their mood.
If a mid-famous player surrenders 2 games in group stage (which happened often times), nobody cares. But when a famous player surrenders a final, everyone is upset and wants to punish that player. Why arent we objective? I mean the first player had to invest much less time, but still didnt want to. The finalist already showed great games, he contributed more to the public than the one surrendering in group stage.
Fact is that everyone (including organizers) is acting selfish. We wanna see more games from the star player, because hes good. if he doesnt want to play anymore, we feel more offended than when a mid-famous player surrenders. I mean its not like Stephano demanded a reschedule or anything. He passed on 600 dollars, he had his reason why he did that! Just stay objective and dont use 2 standards. If you can surrender a group match without any consequences, you can also surrender a final match. Its as easy.
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btw did anybody mention why ONOG wanted the games to be played live instead of casting replays (thus avoiding any issues like this one)?
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EPT
