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On January 30 2012 21:22 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 21:54 reapsen wrote:@MrBitter: I think the main problem is, that there were no prior rules on how forfeits are to be dealt with. And the announcement by "Deric, the President of One Nation of Gamers" sounds very different, from what you just said. Quote Deric: Given that principle, I came to the decision to penalize Stephano and move him to 4th place, have Catz and Illusion play for 2nd/3rd, and have the victor play against Kas. There it sounds like, he is mad at stephano and kind of arbitrarily penalizes him by "moving him to 4th". He doesn't mention any ruleset that this decision is based on. Also no talk about Stephano giving up his spot in the finals. Not to mention that this makes no sense at all: - When you win a semi-final you are in the final. When you forfeit then, you give up the spot for 1st place. - When you forfeit a semi-final you give up the spot in the final. Ultimately, Deric okayed the decision, but I was the one who suggested we handle it the way that we did. Was Deric pissed? Maybe. I would have been. But he didn't say "man I'm mad, how can I penalize this guy?" He asked me what I would do, and I told him.
The point that I would really like cleared up is this:
If Stephano had known (because rules were in place) that he would have been docked $600 for logging off what would you have done if he had done a failed six pool four times, submitted you the replays in ten minutes and then gone to bed? You would have had the replays from which to cast a bo7 final from and Stephano would have earned $600 in 10 minutes.
I would also really, really like to know if when Stephano was invited to this tournament weeks ago he was explicitly told that the finals would be expected to finish at around 5AM his time. Given the quality of him as a player it isn't unreasonable to expect him to make the finals, if you knew it would be so late for him was he informed? The SCAN invitiational earlier in the day showed a broadcast schedule throughout the program and although it was live it was stuck to very closely. ONOG seemed to have no idea when things would start or how long they would last, so I am willing to go with Stephano had no idea the tournament would run that late given where he lived until it had already started on the final day.
Full credit to Kas for staying up until 6AM to secure the win even with illusion time wasting in the final game (I don't think anyone deseved manner mules more) but when you invite top europeans to a live online event it is completely unreasonable to create a playing schedule where you honestly expect them to play at stupid times.
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On January 30 2012 22:53 Ghanburighan wrote:
P.S. And no, it would not be ok to just drone rush/6 pool all those games. That also cheats the organizers and fans out of real games.
Don't ask a pro to show you a real game after 12h of games vs really top players. You will get cheese... lots of cheese.
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On January 30 2012 22:56 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 22:53 Ghanburighan wrote:
P.S. And no, it would not be ok to just drone rush/6 pool all those games. That also cheats the organizers and fans out of real games. Don't ask a pro to show you a real game after 12h of games vs really top players. You will get cheese... lots of cheese.
Whats wrong with cheese?
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Very disappointed by Stephano.. this was not some weekly online event but was made and streamed live at barcrafts and he just left, if he was to tired that is his own fault. I hope they ban him from their next events.
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On January 30 2012 22:56 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 22:53 Ghanburighan wrote:
P.S. And no, it would not be ok to just drone rush/6 pool all those games. That also cheats the organizers and fans out of real games. Don't ask a pro to show you a real game after 12h of games vs really top players. You will get cheese... lots of cheese.
Nice how you deleted most of what I said. But I'm okay with cheese in tournaments, what I'm not okay with is giving up. He should play his heart out or not sign up for a tournament. Essentially, this is Naniwa again. And that sort of stuff needs to be weeded out of the SC2 scene.
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On January 30 2012 22:55 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 21:22 MrBitter wrote:On January 30 2012 21:54 reapsen wrote:@MrBitter: I think the main problem is, that there were no prior rules on how forfeits are to be dealt with. And the announcement by "Deric, the President of One Nation of Gamers" sounds very different, from what you just said. Quote Deric: Given that principle, I came to the decision to penalize Stephano and move him to 4th place, have Catz and Illusion play for 2nd/3rd, and have the victor play against Kas. There it sounds like, he is mad at stephano and kind of arbitrarily penalizes him by "moving him to 4th". He doesn't mention any ruleset that this decision is based on. Also no talk about Stephano giving up his spot in the finals. Not to mention that this makes no sense at all: - When you win a semi-final you are in the final. When you forfeit then, you give up the spot for 1st place. - When you forfeit a semi-final you give up the spot in the final. Ultimately, Deric okayed the decision, but I was the one who suggested we handle it the way that we did. Was Deric pissed? Maybe. I would have been. But he didn't say "man I'm mad, how can I penalize this guy?" He asked me what I would do, and I told him. The point that I would really like cleared up is this: If Stephano had known (because rules were in place) that he would have been docked $600 for logging off what would you have done if he had done a failed six pool four times, submitted you the replays in ten minutes and then gone to bed? You would have had the replays from which to cast a bo7 final from and Stephano would have earned $600 in 10 minutes. I would also really, really like to know if when Stephano was invited to this tournament weeks ago he was explicitly told that the finals would be expected to finish at around 5AM his time. Given the quality of him as a player it isn't unreasonable to expect him to make the finals, if you knew it would be so late for him was he informed? The SCAN invitiational earlier in the day showed a broadcast schedule throughout the program and although it was live it was stuck to very closely. ONOG seemed to have no idea when things would start or how long they would last, so I am willing to go with Stephano had no idea the tournament would run that late given where he lived until it had already started on the final day. Full credit to Kas for staying up until 6AM to secure the win but when you invite top europeans to a live online event it is completely unreasonable to create a playing schedule where you honestly expect them to play at stupid times.
What type of timing were you expecting for a tournament organized to provide content for BARcrafts in the United States?
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On January 30 2012 22:57 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 22:56 Frankon wrote:On January 30 2012 22:53 Ghanburighan wrote:
P.S. And no, it would not be ok to just drone rush/6 pool all those games. That also cheats the organizers and fans out of real games. Don't ask a pro to show you a real game after 12h of games vs really top players. You will get cheese... lots of cheese. Whats wrong with cheese?
Apparently to some people cheese != real games...
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On January 30 2012 22:57 Tarotis wrote:
Whats wrong with cheese?
Reminds me of the French!
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On January 30 2012 22:59 138Raptor wrote:Reminds me of the French!
I hope that's not your only account.
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On January 30 2012 22:49 Purple Haze wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 22:46 nihlon wrote:On January 30 2012 22:41 Purple Haze wrote:On January 30 2012 22:05 IMStyle wrote:
it is sad that esports isn't taken seriously by the players. This is the only "professional" sport where someone forfeits a finals match. This obviously causes lower ratings, less viewers, less money.....
Its sad that fans don't take it seriously either. Keep supporting stephano and those who openly throw away games in televised matchup.. See where this sport goes. Cincinnati masters this season, Djokovic retires during the final with a stadium full of paying fans sitting watching. He could have stood there and let his opponent serve aces past him, while serving underarm himself and finish the match, but that would have been a total waste of everyones time. Why are people always trying to trash e-sports by making false comparisons? As for this issue I think having Illusion and Stephano split the second/third place money evenly between them would have been the fairest outcome, but the organisers could hardly be blamed for coming up with a quick solution to make sure the fans were entertained, and with Stephano apparently ok to drop to fourth to make up for the inconvenience he's caused the tournament surely that should be the end of it? Eh Djokovic quit because of his shoulder injury... “I was quite exhausted playing many matches, but the exhaustion is not the reason. I just could not serve." Who are the one making false comparisons again? He still withdrew from a finals match, something that apparently never happens in other sports. As I said, Djokovic could have served underarm, played left handed, finished the match somehow but it would have been pointless. Stephano felt he was unable to play, so those matches would have also been pointless, do you think he'd have given up a chance to win $1500 in a single series otherwise?
More importantly people feel like players should be 100% at mercy of an organizer's will when it is appropriate to play and when it's not. My only thought is maybe it shouldn't be completely 100% on either side. It is a mutual relationship, where the business of events is what is providing the players a platform to promote themselves and funding of prizes. On the other hand there wouldn't be any business in the first place without the players willing to perform.
Withdrawing from a competition is such a basic and not unlikely question that ought to be clarified beforehand. I have problems with voices inside the industry that heavily lobby for the influence and balance of power towards event organizers. There should be a clear ruling and code of conduct to be agreed upon before entering the tournament. The particular problem arises in different occurrences of the same "offense", which are being treated differently. The status quo is that right now one can not possibly know when it is exactly legal to forfeit a match and organizers are free to bestow any level of punishment they see fit at any time.
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On January 30 2012 23:00 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 22:59 138Raptor wrote:On January 30 2012 22:57 Tarotis wrote:
Whats wrong with cheese? Reminds me of the French! I hope that's not your only account.
cmon give him some credit ! i laughed a lot since he didnt make any jokes about my country yet!
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On January 30 2012 22:59 AcuWill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 22:55 mvtaylor wrote:On January 30 2012 21:22 MrBitter wrote:On January 30 2012 21:54 reapsen wrote:@MrBitter: I think the main problem is, that there were no prior rules on how forfeits are to be dealt with. And the announcement by "Deric, the President of One Nation of Gamers" sounds very different, from what you just said. Quote Deric: Given that principle, I came to the decision to penalize Stephano and move him to 4th place, have Catz and Illusion play for 2nd/3rd, and have the victor play against Kas. There it sounds like, he is mad at stephano and kind of arbitrarily penalizes him by "moving him to 4th". He doesn't mention any ruleset that this decision is based on. Also no talk about Stephano giving up his spot in the finals. Not to mention that this makes no sense at all: - When you win a semi-final you are in the final. When you forfeit then, you give up the spot for 1st place. - When you forfeit a semi-final you give up the spot in the final. Ultimately, Deric okayed the decision, but I was the one who suggested we handle it the way that we did. Was Deric pissed? Maybe. I would have been. But he didn't say "man I'm mad, how can I penalize this guy?" He asked me what I would do, and I told him. The point that I would really like cleared up is this: If Stephano had known (because rules were in place) that he would have been docked $600 for logging off what would you have done if he had done a failed six pool four times, submitted you the replays in ten minutes and then gone to bed? You would have had the replays from which to cast a bo7 final from and Stephano would have earned $600 in 10 minutes. I would also really, really like to know if when Stephano was invited to this tournament weeks ago he was explicitly told that the finals would be expected to finish at around 5AM his time. Given the quality of him as a player it isn't unreasonable to expect him to make the finals, if you knew it would be so late for him was he informed? The SCAN invitiational earlier in the day showed a broadcast schedule throughout the program and although it was live it was stuck to very closely. ONOG seemed to have no idea when things would start or how long they would last, so I am willing to go with Stephano had no idea the tournament would run that late given where he lived until it had already started on the final day. Full credit to Kas for staying up until 6AM to secure the win but when you invite top europeans to a live online event it is completely unreasonable to create a playing schedule where you honestly expect them to play at stupid times. What type of timing were you expecting for a tournament organized to provide content for BARcrafts in the United States?
One that is at a time acceptable for the players competing in the tournament, also I looked at the barcrafts tab last night, there were two scheduled events with 83 people attending according to the facebook links, it's not like there were hundreds of people.
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Give it a rest. I'm happy he went to bed. He has like an infinite-to-nothing record against kas, i might be retarded, but i wouldn't want to show my weaker play because "i SHOULD stay and play my worst". If the games would have turned out to be crap, with stephano not being able to play properly, i'm happy that he went to sleep. It's better to watch paint dry than to watch probably the best foreigner in the world falling apart.
The fact that spectators miss a game is just a bad side-effect of that all. And anyone of us must learn to deal with disappointments that come out of side-effects from someone's decisions.
That said, this also means that the "Decision of staff" for stephano getting placed 4th is o-k, since he obviously didn't want to challange his sleep and ruining his record for some extra dollars, he shouldn't be too disappointed in getting a few dollars less anyways. Though it might not seem "fair", since why shouldn't someone be able to forfeit? Oh the poor fans. They are better off seeing nothing, not bad games.
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The offense is not in the content of the lol-@-french-people jokes, it's in just how embarrassingly tired and over-done they are. The joke-tellers are regurgitating decades old stereotypes, completely outside of context or any experience of the people involved. It's not being offensive in the sense of hurting the feelings of the people whom the joke is directed at, it's offensive in that it makes transparent just how uninspired, shallow and lazy the joke-tellers are. In the same way that it is offensive to open a coat in a public space to reveal your pale, doughy nakedness below, so it is offensive to the people reading and hearing these jokes to have to witness the revelation of the ugly, stunted soul that produces such pathetic wit.
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On January 30 2012 22:46 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 22:41 Purple Haze wrote:On January 30 2012 22:05 IMStyle wrote:
it is sad that esports isn't taken seriously by the players. This is the only "professional" sport where someone forfeits a finals match. This obviously causes lower ratings, less viewers, less money.....
Its sad that fans don't take it seriously either. Keep supporting stephano and those who openly throw away games in televised matchup.. See where this sport goes. Cincinnati masters this season, Djokovic retires during the final with a stadium full of paying fans sitting watching. He could have stood there and let his opponent serve aces past him, while serving underarm himself and finish the match, but that would have been a total waste of everyones time. Why are people always trying to trash e-sports by making false comparisons? As for this issue I think having Illusion and Stephano split the second/third place money evenly between them would have been the fairest outcome, but the organisers could hardly be blamed for coming up with a quick solution to make sure the fans were entertained, and with Stephano apparently ok to drop to fourth to make up for the inconvenience he's caused the tournament surely that should be the end of it? Eh Djokovic quit because of his shoulder injury... Show nested quote +“I was quite exhausted playing many matches, but the exhaustion is not the reason. I just could not serve." Who are the one making false comparisons again?
So how is being too tired to play totally different?
Stephano wasnt able to concentrate enough, he already allined Illusion twice.
You guys honestly think Stephano would just decide his sleep is more important and pass on 1500$?
If he would have played, the situation would be most likely much worse.
Stephano has to be blamed for not planning that out beforehand, but don't blow this out of proportion.
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On January 30 2012 22:53 Ghanburighan wrote:
Now I've heard everything. The right to forfeit?! Next time you don't feel like going to school, or to a business meeting or finishing a deadline on a project, claim the right to forfeit. Then, go back the next day and see how welcome you are (hint, the result is proportional to how many people it affected). And in sports its made much worse because tournament organizers rely on players to compete for a tournament to take place and, worse, because forfeiting matches is closely connected to match-fixing, and we should all know how detrimental that can be to a sport both from Broodwar and from other sports like sumo. So, no, there isn't a right to forfeit. There are cases when a forfeit is inevitable (injuries, flights cancelled) but random forfeits should not be accepted as a norm by this community. And the result of a forfeit should always be the same, it's realistically the same as never attending the tournament. I'm surprised that a forfeit can make you any amount of money. I expect in the future there to be hefty fines in place to guarantee that players never forfeit.
P.S. And no, it would not be ok to just drone rush/6 pool all those games. That also cheats the organizers and fans out of real games.
To reject the right to forfeit outright is arguable between people that actually perform. You make it sound like SC2's purpose is entertainment. That might be your view. Others see the competition first and foremost, with the entertainment part as a pleasant side-effect which happens to be fit for a associated auxiliary industry to be developed around.
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On January 30 2012 23:01 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 22:49 Purple Haze wrote:On January 30 2012 22:46 nihlon wrote:On January 30 2012 22:41 Purple Haze wrote:On January 30 2012 22:05 IMStyle wrote:
it is sad that esports isn't taken seriously by the players. This is the only "professional" sport where someone forfeits a finals match. This obviously causes lower ratings, less viewers, less money.....
Its sad that fans don't take it seriously either. Keep supporting stephano and those who openly throw away games in televised matchup.. See where this sport goes. Cincinnati masters this season, Djokovic retires during the final with a stadium full of paying fans sitting watching. He could have stood there and let his opponent serve aces past him, while serving underarm himself and finish the match, but that would have been a total waste of everyones time. Why are people always trying to trash e-sports by making false comparisons? As for this issue I think having Illusion and Stephano split the second/third place money evenly between them would have been the fairest outcome, but the organisers could hardly be blamed for coming up with a quick solution to make sure the fans were entertained, and with Stephano apparently ok to drop to fourth to make up for the inconvenience he's caused the tournament surely that should be the end of it? Eh Djokovic quit because of his shoulder injury... “I was quite exhausted playing many matches, but the exhaustion is not the reason. I just could not serve." Who are the one making false comparisons again? He still withdrew from a finals match, something that apparently never happens in other sports. As I said, Djokovic could have served underarm, played left handed, finished the match somehow but it would have been pointless. Stephano felt he was unable to play, so those matches would have also been pointless, do you think he'd have given up a chance to win $1500 in a single series otherwise? More importantly people feel like players should be 100% at mercy of an organizer's will when it is appropriate to play and when it's not. My only thought is maybe it shouldn't be completely 100% on either side. It is a mutual relationship, where the business of events is what is providing the players a platform to promote themselves and funding of prizes. On the other hand there wouldn't be any business in the first place without the players willing to perform. Withdrawing from a competition is such a basic and not unlikely question that ought to be clarified beforehand. I have problems with voices inside the industry that heavily lobby for the influence and balance of power towards event organizers. There should be a clear ruling and code of conduct to be agreed upon before entering the tournament. The particular problem arises in different occurrences of the same "offense", which are being treated differently. The status quo is that right now one can not possibly know when it is exactly legal to forfeit a match and organizers are free to bestow any level of punishment they see fit at any time.
Didn't we have this discussion already on pages 93-95? No punishment is at issue here, I believe that in the future there should be, but at the moment the crucial question is what is the right thing in this situation. Stephano, in my mind clearly, did the wrong thing by disregarding fans and tournament organizers. The tournament organizers didn't do anything too bad in return, so we can ignore that at the moment. And I think this case gives the basis to argue that in the future forfeits from tournaments should be met with a) punishments b) ethics investigations to check that there's no match-fixing. The way to "fix" the balance of power issue you mention is to have another regulatory body, in other cases, the rule of thumb is that those doing the work (volunteers and organizers) get to decide, while those that walk away (here: Stephano) forfeit their right to decide.
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I personally think ONOG is to blame here.
Stephano beat Illusion in the semifinals, which means he earned a top 2 finish. He then forfeited the final match because of whatever reason, which earns him the 2nd place and the correspondent prize money. Randomly placing him 4th makes no sense whatsoever.
The critical factor here was imho having a final between a frenchman and an ukranian that would start around 4 AM for the players, after a whole day of playing. That, simply put, is very poor planning. ONOG should have started 11 PM sharp, and either disqualify Stephano for not showing up on time, or if Illusion/Catz happened to be available and agreed with it, then maybe have started with their match. Instead they decided to delay the whole tournament for 45+ minutes, which given the timezones of everyone involved, was clearly not a good idea.
I think Stephano acted like a child, asking for an hour long break to cook some broccoli and then essentially ragequitting the tournament because it was too late for him to play. But as an organization, you should be preppared to deal with child-like behavior of the players, and have some rules in place to properly react given the case. They instead bent their shedule to the will of one player, made the rules on the fly, and as a result got a top 4 that clearly does not rank the players according to their skill.
I hope they realize this and fix it for upcoming tourneys.
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On January 30 2012 23:07 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 23:01 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 22:49 Purple Haze wrote:On January 30 2012 22:46 nihlon wrote:On January 30 2012 22:41 Purple Haze wrote:On January 30 2012 22:05 IMStyle wrote:
it is sad that esports isn't taken seriously by the players. This is the only "professional" sport where someone forfeits a finals match. This obviously causes lower ratings, less viewers, less money.....
Its sad that fans don't take it seriously either. Keep supporting stephano and those who openly throw away games in televised matchup.. See where this sport goes. Cincinnati masters this season, Djokovic retires during the final with a stadium full of paying fans sitting watching. He could have stood there and let his opponent serve aces past him, while serving underarm himself and finish the match, but that would have been a total waste of everyones time. Why are people always trying to trash e-sports by making false comparisons? As for this issue I think having Illusion and Stephano split the second/third place money evenly between them would have been the fairest outcome, but the organisers could hardly be blamed for coming up with a quick solution to make sure the fans were entertained, and with Stephano apparently ok to drop to fourth to make up for the inconvenience he's caused the tournament surely that should be the end of it? Eh Djokovic quit because of his shoulder injury... “I was quite exhausted playing many matches, but the exhaustion is not the reason. I just could not serve." Who are the one making false comparisons again? He still withdrew from a finals match, something that apparently never happens in other sports. As I said, Djokovic could have served underarm, played left handed, finished the match somehow but it would have been pointless. Stephano felt he was unable to play, so those matches would have also been pointless, do you think he'd have given up a chance to win $1500 in a single series otherwise? More importantly people feel like players should be 100% at mercy of an organizer's will when it is appropriate to play and when it's not. My only thought is maybe it shouldn't be completely 100% on either side. It is a mutual relationship, where the business of events is what is providing the players a platform to promote themselves and funding of prizes. On the other hand there wouldn't be any business in the first place without the players willing to perform. Withdrawing from a competition is such a basic and not unlikely question that ought to be clarified beforehand. I have problems with voices inside the industry that heavily lobby for the influence and balance of power towards event organizers. There should be a clear ruling and code of conduct to be agreed upon before entering the tournament. The particular problem arises in different occurrences of the same "offense", which are being treated differently. The status quo is that right now one can not possibly know when it is exactly legal to forfeit a match and organizers are free to bestow any level of punishment they see fit at any time. Didn't we have this discussion already on pages 93-95? No punishment is at issue here, I believe that in the future there should be, but at the moment the crucial question is what is the right thing in this situation. Stephano, in my mind clearly, did the wrong thing by disregarding fans and tournament organizers. The tournament organizers didn't do anything too bad in return, so we can ignore that at the moment. And I think this case gives the basis to argue that in the future forfeits from tournaments should be met with a) punishments b) ethics investigations to check that there's no match-fixing. The way to "fix" the balance of power issue you mention is to have another regulatory body, in other cases, the rule of thumb is that those doing the work (volunteers and organizers) get to decide, while those that walk away (here: Stephano) forfeit their right to decide.
But there is a punishment of 600$. Stephano was effectively fined 600$ for not continuing a tournament. The balance of power was targeted at the fact that within the idea competition there is at no point an obligation to compete. If I would be challenged by a physically superior opponent to a fist-fight, I am perfectly right in choosing not to compete. The problem lies within judgment of reasons. What you are proposing is to place full control on one side of the relationship by rejecting the right of forfeit completely and stating it should be punished by principle. Your rule of thumb is weakened by the fact that without players there wouldn't have been a show at all, hence the organizing part is not the only one providing value.
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On January 30 2012 21:22 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 21:08 Silvanel wrote:
You forget that forfeits happen all the time in variety of different sports, especialy individual. Its sad that it happened in finals, but what can You do....ONOG reaction wasnt the proper one. They should be happy that Kas is very mannered and agreed to play, he easily could say "lawl i am not going to play anyone but stephano, he isnt here? That means i win by default right?". We should be glad that players in this community are so mannered, but it wil harder and hareder the more money flows into e-sport. I've been staying pretty tight-lipped on this one, but I am going to go ahead and sound off in support of the ONOG decision. I'm going to rationalize it a little differently though. Kas and Stephano both won their semi-final matches. Stephano forfeited his spot in the final. This is not the same as Kas winning. We still had to hold our final. With Stephano out, the two "highest seeds" were Catz and Illusion. Those two played to determine who plays vs. Kas. The loser would play for 3rd place. Stephano was not there to play for 3rd, and thus forfeits, getting 4th. How is this wrong or unfair to anyone, save the viewers who were cheated out of a Kas vs Stephano final?
This is some interesting way of thinking. If Djokovic broke his leg before the Aussie Open Finals, he would have been placed 4th place, according to ur new rules. Despite beating Murray in a world class semis, he would lose all his ATP points/prize money and ranking? Pathetic.
You, as tournament organizers were just offended by the (yes, childish) behavior of Stephano, and were looking for a way to punish him and keep the tournament going. This are not and will never be common rules to handle such a situation, because its UNFAIR! You just invented rules to get what you want. And this is just ridiculous, and should NEVER happen. Not in sports, or anywhere else.
Edit: i was always thinking that ur one of the smartest casters out there and had lots of respect for ur work. Please dont ruin it by defending some "uncommon, invented rules" 
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EPT
