deth: Apparently making information and dealings transparent is blackmail, so by that logic any journalism is blackmail.
Nirv: No saying let me play OR i will post this on TL is blackmail. Especially when you are aware of the consequences it may have for the community. You also waited 3 weeks to make an issue about it instead of posting it right away, clearly did this out of spite because i refused to accept your apology.
At first I didnt even know I was banned, then I had christmas, spent time in the country and got back on tuesday. I worked all week and now had time to address the issue before the league started. Also not blackmail. Im not getting money out of it if im successful, im getting the opportunity to play a video game with my clan for fucks sake.
Get over yourself, your logic regarding how much you've apparently "lost" in terms of earnings is pathetic. It is a conscious decision by you to quit your job and work with sc2sea.
Nirv: You're saying i'm profiting from the community, im explaining im not if you consider the opportunity costs incured. If my intention was to make profit I would have continued what i was doing. I was defending my argument thats all.
Im not stopping you from going back and making your big dollars. I am going to call bullshit that you were earning anywhere close to that amount though, I have it on very good authority that you were, in fact, not a high roller making loads of benjamins.
Saying that you do owe the community shit is not a personal attack. You cannot even hope to back this up.
Nirv: Im saying making the accusation "that i owe the community cause all i do is profit from them" is a personal attack, and also baselss and misguided. You misread something.
Never said that in those words, stop lying pls. Still not a personal attack.
You say ive been banned 7 times, but fail to address the fact that each time it has been ridiculous.
Nirv: You have 3 banned accounts. Thats already 3 bans. Skybreaked banned you on your TAdeth account, thats already 4 bans minimum and this is just from the top of my head.
Still waiting for the number 7 dude, still waiting for you to address the fact that 2 of those bans were just downvotes
Lets face it man, you just hate me and have a personal vendetta against me. Its honestly bordering on the ludicrous, and anyone who reads your post with an open, critical mind can see how pathetic you are behaving.
Nirv: Its not me, i am always very netural in my interactions. It is you who makes the personal attacks each and every time. When have i accused you of something baseless or made a personal attack against you?
lol
Also I actually laughed out loud at you saying I have put the entire community at risk for what Ive done, which is just expose your conduct.
Nirv: Oh yea you laughed you probably don't care or think of the consquences this might have. To you really don't care since you're not playing, there's "nothing to lose"
Good point, I agree with myself. There isn't anything to lose for me here, I do however get to bring some transparency and highlight how ridiculous your behaviour is.
deth: OH also, this is fucking epicly rich: You did that for your own benefit. You talked to the sqlt manager just so you could get ninja + HuT to play for alt, and because you didnt think bielsko would join xgking. You are soooo dishonest its amazing.
Nirv: again, another extremely baseless comment. yes i didnt think bielsko would join, but i was well aware of the possibility he might did not protest when it did. our two stars are PiG and Yoon. the next line of players - jimdiddy han sheepy shortizz mrfool and myself i consider to be at the same tier we have more than enough capable players. ninja is a good player but no disrespect to him, having ninja not play for us would not be a big loss. So we ended up losing bielsko and getting ninja, an even trade which we did not benefit from it where you got two very strong players for your team. it clearly benefit you. Lastly, hut doesnt even consider himself ngen since he quit a long time ago, he was a free agent, inactive for the LAST 2 MONTHS and his name shoudlnt even be brought up. URGED hut to play for xgking instead but he didnt want to.
stop acting like u did this out of the goodness of your own heart, you know as well as i do that not everyone on your team will be available every week. its mainly ninja but yeah you just wanted to stop the sql/xg merge. you got something out of it and so did ta.
*******
But yea, the fact that this guy is admin of a community with such potential makes me sad. If he continues to act like this it will remain what it is: a backwater community site for a server noone cares about in the international scene. We have like, under 10 players who would be recognised on an external level, glade, tgun, azz, shuffle, iaguz, PiG are all i can think of right now, and that does truly sadden me.
Your opportunity cost valuation doesn't take into account the value of what you currently do beyond the actual dollars (there's an intangible value to doing something you enjoy, which is worth more than $$ or you wouldn't be doing but). What are you even trying to say here? Are you losing money? Sure, you'd be better off if you'd remained in your old job, but this is a decision that you chose to invest yourself in.
My major issue is that your motivations for banning deth have led you to take a much harder line than the bans imposed on people who were found to be hacking. Your problem with deth is a personal one; the problems the community has with hackers is much more systemic.
You argued that banning hackers from the site and all related tournaments for an entire year was too harsh; you originally favoured a 3 month ban, but after complaints from the community (myself included) that was later increased to 6 months. However, players of the community could reduce their duration of the ban to 3 months through acts of goodwill to the community, through services like free coaching.
I know deth would be happy to do something like this, but you haven't even extended this opportunity to him. In terms of acts against the community, deth's infractions are basically minor, yet you've determined that a reasonable punishment would be to remove him from the Clan League - not for any longer of that, mind you, just the two months that would prevent him from playing in the league.
I'd also question what your definition of a "half hearted apology" was; I think people on TL can recognise that this a fairly robust apology:
Hi all, most of you know me as deth from TA. With the SEA CL#2 coming up and in light of recent events and drama in the community, I need to get some things off my chest.
First of all, and this will be confirmed by everyone who knows me, all my clanmates from TA and basically everyone from lans, I am honest to the point of ridiculousness. It gets me in trouble sometimes, but I make no apologies for this. If I don't like someone, I don't pretend to like them and then talk shit behind their back, I tell them I have a problem with them to their face. Sometimes this leads to a resolution of conflict, other times it results in unresolved tension and ongoing bitterness.
I am also overly critical, a trait I openly admit to, which I feel is part of what makes me so successful in my studies and pursuits of Journalism at University. It is also the trait that has made me the player I am today, I cannot cope with mistakes or losing, and my critical nature allows me to examine, dissect and correct mistakes as I see fit.
If I am sorry for something I will apologise. If I am not sorry, I won't apologise. I won't compromise my integrity or be dishonest in order to decieve people into thinking an apology is sincere when I believe and vehemently feel the opposite. That's why I sincerely hope everyone can take this thread and the following comments as open, honest truth, and process my thoughts with an open mind.
The critical and honest aspects of my personality have led me to be banned from this site and from the upcoming SEA CL #2. In the past I have gotten in trouble from admins of this site for disagreeing with their actions, openly criticising their behaviour and arguing relentlessly.
If I have made personal attacks on anyone in this community, not just admins, I apologise. I get heated in the thick of the moment and spout my mouth off in ways I sometimes regret. On the whole, I believe the admins, nirvana inclusive, do a great job of making sure we have ongoing events in the community and provide a localised portal for discussion and activity, without which the scene would certainly not be what it is today. And for the others in the community which make everything happen, you are all awesome for the work you do. Even benji, as much as we have had disagreements in the past, one cannot deny the impressive amount of work he puts into the scene in terms of casting and creating content.
As TA were champions of the original SEACL, I believe I owe it to them to try and make amends. I believe as a community we owe it to the players and the fans to provide the most entertaining environment and quality matches as possible. I believe I have shown highly entertaining games in the past, especially my tvp's against light, tvz's against mafia, pig and glade, and specific tvt series against yyj, RA, rossi, iaguz and many others. I don't feel as though my actions on this site or in the community should result in being excluded from this community wide league. I do not mind taking an exclusion from posting/reputation rights on this site as consequence for my actions, but I feel as though there should be some seperation of punishment between the game itself and community conduct.
I haven't hacked. I haven't cheated. I haven't always been manner but in tournaments and even ladder now, I always gl,hf and gg, no matter what. I give advice to those who want it and ask for it online, even if I have never heard of them or spoken to them before. My conduct in the game I feel is solid. All I want is to be able to play with my team. If I am excluded from this league I feel as though it isn't validated. SEA CL was ran without exclusions, and TA rose to the top and were victorious. Now we have two of our top lineup excluded from the league (myself and pinder), and any results stemming from this league aren't going to be valid.. I think for the players as well, if I was in their shoes I would want everyone to be playing, so a victory felt earned, rather than hollow.
I hope we can come to some sort of agreement here. I believe there should be a seperation between forum privelages and tournaments. Ban people from leagues for hacking and cheating, not disagreeing with staff on completely unrelated matters or using the reputation system.
Again, I wish to iterate that I do believe that the admins of this site do our community a great service, most of the time. I am just blunt, honest and critical of pretty much every mistake; this cannot be easy to deal with and I apologise if you are offended by my actions or personality. I mean nothing personally. I just want esports in sea to take off, have solid events, and more than anything have people watch and support entertaining leagues and watch exciting games.
The thing that sucks is this situation really needs an independent person to adjudicate for the best interests of everyone. Previously I would have said Derek "Dox" Reball would have been the best person suited for that role - he's a trusted member of the community, at home and abroad - but your decision to delete his posts makes me think you wouldn't agree with his input.
Either way, hopefully something can be worked out that would make all parties happy. This situation has gotten ugly enough as it is.
Some of the points made in the above statements from both parties has raised my eyebrows and I wish to place something here now to discuss them further.
First of all, I'm also in clan Terror Australis (TA) with Deth. Please, if you are a reasonable person I hope you realise my clan affiliation does NOT change who I am as a person, nor the views and principles I subscribe to.
With that in mind, the below are some of my questions / comments regarding the aforementioned posts.
"The tournament lasts 2 months and I said that he could play NEXT season after serving the ban, making the ban really lenient."
We're banning hackers for the same length of time. Do you honestly feel Deth has committed any sort of crime or infraction as serious as this?
I felt it was unfair to TA so i talked to him and explaied the situation and it ended up with the 2 star TA players going back to TA which would never have been possible without my intervention. Are the players themselves not allowed to make their own decisions? I'm sure those players in question would have made their own choices when it came down to the SEA Clan League.
I also told him to look at the big picture, for those who agree with him that would end up hurting the community, bring negative attention to sc2sea, sponsors to stay away and affecting the potential of any future tournaments and those who agree with us would make pple lose respect for deth and his clan TA and everything else will go on as usual. Giving someone a ban from a tournament due to forum conduct is the main magnet for bad attention here. What kind of community are we a part of when views on a forum, no matter how heated, begin boiling over to the actual reason we're here? Starcraft 2.
You mentioned that people will make up their own minds about what is right or wrong about the situation, the same goes for potential sponsors / backers of current or future events run / held by this community. Every community has a level of drama but ultimately if the entity in the wrong is a single player you and I both know that one player of the 7,000 is not going to drive sponsorship away. The only thing that can do that is when the community begins to falter due to an admin / mod / organiser making a mistake with wider repercussions on the community in question.
sc2sea costs $305 to run every month. I personally don't know anything about this part, but I would atleast find it interesting to see how much money is coming in, verses how much is going out. $370 have come into the site so far this month (we're now 8 days in). Whats happened to $65 of it and the rest that's yet to come in from future donations for the month / TW keys / TGM subscriptions? (No i'm not saying nirvAnA IS profiteering, i'm just curious).
999/1000 times nothing gets removed and people just get infracted (warned) and the rest can decide for themselves why he was banned and theres transparency. For "transparency" sake, could you please reinstate both Dox and Rossi's posts in Deths apology thread? Also my -rep on your post in the same thread because since reading this I feel its warranted and as a part of "transparency" feel it should not have been removed.
Del's ban, Pinders ban. Irrelevant. We're talking about Deth's ban here.
I did not delete it so people could see it, but i closed it as i rather had the conversation be on skype between me and Rossi in private instead of dragging out over 20 pages over 5 days. I'm curious as to why this was not discussed with Deth over skype / msn rather than Rossi?
"i cant reverse the decision sc2sea will look weak" Reverse? No. I agree, you can't. Revise? Yes. Perhaps we're being a bit too hasty and rash in our dishing of punishment relating to a -rep, which currently is in dispute as per who truly said what. Both you and Deth have different opinions so considering you removed it I think you removed your own support to your argument... This is now a grey area so how can you justify (in the eyes of the players, casters and potential sponsors) what you've chosen to do?
...at the same time try to discredit all the hardwork we at sc2sea have put it over the last two years? Saying we run the forums like dictators, we mindless ban people, make rules just to unfairly peanlise your team - All this could not be further from the truth. You're correct, it could not be further from the truth. However he did not state the mods / admins as a whole are doing that... Only you. I've never come across a troll or anything of the sort that specifically targets JUST the one admin. Please do not do what you've accused Deth of doing (twisting words), because it just does not help us sort this shit out.
I'm saying "let me play OR i will post this on TL" is blackmail, especially when you are well aware of the consequences it may have for the community. Perhaps you've taken him out of context? Clearly he cannot post his opinion or view on SC2Sea (since he's banned) so how about on another public forum which you are unable to delete his views so easily? I think this comment was more "lets sort this out now, otherwise i'll be putting it to public review since I do not believe you're seeing to reason". My 2c.
You probably don't care or think of the consequences this might have or take into consideration how much time and effort we spent to built up our community. To you, you really don't care since you're not playing, there's "nothing to lose" You raise a valid point, this is OUR community... not just one person's. To that end, could you please address the following: [6:49:44 PM] bryan choo -: i dont owe any shit to anyone, certiantly not deth [6:49:48 PM] bryan choo -: i dont have to make a thread [6:49:50 PM] bryan choo -: for rules [6:49:57 PM] bryan choo -: i can just decide the rules myself and everyone will still play The above comment seems very NOT community to me. Thusfar as you have not posted a retort to this I shall reserve making judgement, however I feel this certainly needs to be addressed for both the credibility of yourself and the community everyone has worked to build.
I refer to the TL rules from which the humble admins/mods of sc2sea who are fully respectful of this website and everything that it has done and as a result, draw inspiration and guidance from. TL's 10 Commandments
In particular, I believe these in particular (and probably more) apply in some form or another to you, deth. (Read abovementioned link for full explanations of each)
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE 2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE 3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING 6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN - in particular, the bit about "Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative."
All things being considered, "evidence", or rather, smatterings of conversations which could easily have been posted out of context isn't much to go by on a forum.
Honestly deth, this tournament will go on, with or without you, and this tournament is something awesome nirvana and his team put together, and you're not doing TL/sc2sea/the sc2 community any good by your actions. So man up and take the ban, keep playing SC2 and have fun, or at the very least, don't stop other people from having theirs, or rather, wasting everyone's time. So let's just get the tournament on, shall we?
p.s. Dissing nirvana about him making a living off the site is quite a low (and inaccurate) blow. I'd imagine nirvana makes a shitload more working at his previous day job than at this current "job" and honestly its not like he's making a killing off his site. So even if he does owe the community "shit", you alone don't exactly constitute "the community".
p.p.s. My apologies to the rest of the forum members who have to put up with this.
On January 08 2012 01:44 mezza wrote: I refer to the TL rules from which the humble admins/mods of sc2sea who are fully respectful of this website and everything that it has done and as a result, draw inspiration and guidance from. TL's 10 Commandments
In particular, I believe these in particular (and probably more) apply in some form or another to you, death. (Read abovementioned link for full explanations of each)
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE 2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE 3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING 6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN - in particular, the bit about "Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative."
All things being considered, "evidence", or rather, smatterings of conversations which could easily have been posted out of context isn't much to go by on a forum.
Honestly deth, this tournament will go on, with or without you, and this tournament is something awesome nirvana and his team put together, and you're not doing TL/sc2sea/the sc2 community any good by your actions. So man up and take the ban, keep playing SC2 and have fun, or at the very least, don't stop other people from having theirs, or rather, wasting everyone's time. So let's just get the tournament on, shall we?
p.s. Dissing nirvana about him making a living off the site is quite a low (and inaccurate) blow. I'd imagine nirvana makes a shitload more working at his previous day job than at this current "job" and honestly its not like he's making a killing off his site. So even if he does owe the community "shit", you alone don't exactly constitute "the community".
p.p.s. My apologies to the rest of the forum members who have to put up with this.
Sorry if i dont just "man up and take my ban" which I feel is completely unjustified. Have you even bothered to read this thread? Or are you just blindly following nirvana's side. It certainly doesn't feel like you're being remotely neutral or critical in this situation.
Also i posted full chatlogs and thread from which I took said quotes, you can go read them if you want or just claim that they are out of context. Up to you.
I want to play for my clan in a league. My exclusion from said league is quite honestly ridiculous. My only avenue of option is to bring the discussion to a public forum where we can actually have a conversation without nirvana going and deleting all the offending evidence then making up convenient lies later.
It's great to see this on a level playing field for once. SC2Sea and its mods are great and this isn't about them. It's Nirvana who routinely edits, deletes and reararranges posts/threads and moderates haphazardly based on his mood and prejudices.
Banning someone from a tournament over a -1 rep on a forum post is overkill, even with deth's 'supposed' history. It's not like it can be cited anyway because posts get deleted. There's no transparency and no way to track moderation.
It's also funny that the person who eliminated aLt (Nirvana's clan) from the first SEA Clan League is the same one that got banned from the sequel over a minor FORUM infraction. Deth.
Honestly deth, this tournament will go on, with or without you, and this tournament is something awesome nirvana and his team put together, and you're not doing TL/sc2sea/the sc2 community any good by your actions.
100% true the tournament will soldier on through the drama as all tournaments have and will. 100% true that nirvAnA and the team have put together a damned awesome tournament the likes SEA has not yet seen and for that I personally am eternally thankful. 100% false that Deth is harming the community by stating his views and position on the matter. Where I live we value free speech and having the opportunity to have your own opinions and voice them. Thats what he's doing. Do you honestly think we'd be in this situation if it were handled better by the people in charge in the first instance?
So man up and take the ban
Why the bloody hell would he do that? Do you not believe in standing against injustice? Thats what this is. This was not a just decision and Deth (and I) are standing against that. You don't ask the wrongly accused of crime to "man up and accept what you've been delt", so why should he be any different?
Dissing nirvana about him making a living off the site is quite a low (and inaccurate) blow. I'd imagine nirvana makes a shitload more working at his previous day job than at this current "job" and honestly its not like he's making a killing off his site.
I'd like to personally see the actual incoming verses outgoing before ANYONE makes comment on this further. However, you said nirvAnA would be making more with his previous job? So you admit you believe he's making something financially from this? THATS DETHS POINT. Regardless of the $ value, if hes $1 or $10,000... Deth is saying you're making SOMETHING from it and therefore owe SOMETHING to the people who are giving it to you. Is that not a fair comment? As to what degree he "owes" the community, well, the finances would dictate that... He's already given so much and all Deth originally asked for was he acknowledge he does OWE the community (including Deth) the chance to have input. NirvAnA is yet to answer the "i'll do what I want and people can live with it comment"(paraphrased) so i'll just remind people of it and leave it there.
My apologies to the rest of the forum members who have to put up with this.
Mine too. But as the issue can no longer even be discussed within the community (due to the ban) it has come down to this.
To address your point k!llua, the map hackers "evets" and "meany" were never warned or infracted before, and they were banned from all sc2sea tournaments for a period of 6 months which yes could be reduced by "good behavior". Boxer(a BSG smurfer who was given alot of chances) as well as AZKziek (a racist who is also very disrespectful to mods was also given alot of chances) was banned from the site permanently and were banned from all sc2sea tournaments for LIFE and this was something universally agreed. There never was an issue about it. Are you saying i should let Zan play in SC2SEA tournaments? Because for the last clan league he asked to sign up his team and i remember TA overwhelmingly agreed he should not play in it. deth is just being banned for 2 months for something he has been given ALOT of chances for as well so the ban is extremely consistent to the previous bans carried out on the site.
Perhaps i was too lenient with the 6 month map hack ban but the point is not that, rather that deth was banned for 7 times already and was never going to change unless he received a meaningful ban. I deleted the posts by rossi and dox because i didnt want to refute all of it publicly and have the pages ended up to be over 300 replies over 5 days, like the drama we just had about the SEACL formats which was extremely time consuming already and we had to prepare for the SEAL launch. I talked to them privately on skype as you can see and much preferred that alternative rather then "airing dirty laundry" like what we are doing now. He then made a last attempt to blackmail me by posting it on TL if i did not lift his ban and when i refused he carried out his threat.
btw k!llua = TAdippa btw, is a member of TA, the same clan as deth, as is scarecrow who was their ex leader. And i feel you should at least declare that so people know where you're coming from rather then portray it like they were posts from neutral members.
Again, in response to scarecrows comments where i edit posts haphazardly and randomly delete comments which cannot be further from the truth.
I run the site NOTHING like deth or scarecrow has portrayed. Nowadays, the only times i edit posts is when someone posts a link and nothing else in the op. instead of deleting the post and warning the op for being lazy, i go to that link, copy n paste the gist of it and paste that in the OP so it turns into some discussion instead of pple insulting the OP for making a bad post. Other times pple dont format it well or like today we just integrated google maps so i helped put in just the maps for the lan tournies over the weekend so pple could find the LAN compy better. i never edit it such that the content is changed, i may have done so when the site first started cause i was an inexperienced admin but after the first few months i learned my lesson and never again did that.
As for my approach I am generally extremely lenient, to a fault that i even entertain ban discussions on MSN and i lift bans MULTIPLE times to give people another chance. I even gave whats accepted as SEA's biggest troll "AZKziek" about 8 chances before permanently banning him. 999/1000 times nothing gets removed and people just get infracted (warned) and the rest can decide for themselves why he was banned and theres transparency. There few times I have deleted/removed comments were when people were sexually harassing kelly, making racist remarks, or making ridiculous accusations on no basis which would lead to very heated agruments and derail threads, hence i remove them to prevent the threads for getting ruined. Because i know if i dont there will be 10 more posts by the few TA members saying the same thing and the thread would be completely derailed. There was also a time where deth and his friends thought it would be funny to make memes insulting SEA most hardworking commentator, "Benji" which I had to delete. And i DID NOT EVEN BAN them after they did that. I private messaged them to stop it and gave them a warning. Apart from deth and his friends, the comments i deleted can be counted on one hand. The way he is portraying the running of the site could not be further from the truth.
TA members are a tight bunch and they always stick up for each other, yes theres nothing wrong with that. But sometimes when one of them disagrees on something they get together and downvote people they dont like over small issues. Im not saying all of TA behave like this, they have some perfectly good members.
Benji the most hardworking SEA caster gets down voted for making a seemingly harmless comment, he even specifies he was kidding.
ALOT of the arguments we have in the community tend to head into a TA vs the rest of the sc2sea community direction and the above images is one of the examples of them, with many TA downvoting his harmless post and the community upvoting it because they felt the downvotes were unwarranted. Often victime stand alone as they have no clan to back them, and its what one of our MVPs nemo refers to as "cyber bullying". Most recently a suspected hacker was DEFENDED by TA and friends just because he was friends with them. The people accusing him who took the time and effort to write detailed analysis were "rep downvoted" by TA and friends and the analysis were ignored. Because it looked like the majority of the users were supporting this he got away scot free and we only banned him later when we realized what happened when we saw the SAME people defending their friend trying to give the new suspected map hacker life bans and noticed the appalling double standards.
Again i state, it is not ALL of TA who behave like this.
These are two examples of "rep abuse" which I have warned them many many times that the reputation (the karma +vote -vote thing) should be given based on the merit of posts and not because you dont like the person or are friends with them. Yes it is not a perfect system and is abusable but it doesnt mean you should abuse it. They take warnings extremely lightly to the point they don't even feel they deserve it when a legitimate ban is carried out.
This is a perfect example of how i visioned the rep system to be used, for e.g the community show of support for yoon after the gus saga when he was denied his ticket to PPSL because gus over budgeted.
Alright regarding the "Nirvana - Deth" drama, I'll first say that I've only read some parts of the posts made by both deth and Nirvana, and I feel that they should continue the argument via personal messages, or some other media that ISN'T open to public, because I feel that this is turning into a personal argument between the 2 people.
Just my 2 cents.
On January 08 2012 02:06 aLt)nirvana wrote: To address your point k!llua, the map hackers "evets" and "meany" were never warned or infracted before, and they were banned from all sc2sea tournaments for a period of 6 months which yes could be reduced by "good behaviour". Perhaps i was too lenient but the point is not that, rather that deth was banned for 7 times already and was never going to change unless he received a meaningful ban. I deleted the posts by rossi and dox because i didnt want to refute all of it publicly and have the pages ended up to be over 300 replies over 5 days, like the drama we just had about the SEACL formats which was extremely time consuming already and we had to prepare for the SEAL launch. I talked to them privately on skype as you can see and much preferred that alternative rather then "airing dirty laundry" like what we are doing now. He then made a last attempt to blackmail me by posting it on TL if i did not lift his ban and when i refused he carried out his threat.
btw k!llua = TAdippa btw, is a member of TA, the same clan as deth, as is scarecrow who was their ex leader. And i feel you should at least declare that so people know where you're coming from rather then portray it like they were posts from neutral members.
TA members are a tight bunch and they always stick up for each other, yes theres nothing wrong with that. But sometimes when one of them disagrees on something they get together and downvote people they dont like over small issues. Im not saying all of TA behave like this, they have some perfectly good members.
Sorry if my post sprout a misunderstanding or anything, blame it on my poor english.
Benji the most hardworking SEA caster gets down voted for making a seemingly harmless comment, he even specifies he was kidding.
ALOT of the arguments we have in the community tend to head into a TA vs the rest of the sc2sea community direction and the above images is one of the examples of them, with many TA downvoting his harmless post and the community upvoting it because they felt the downvotes were unwarranted. Often victime stand alone as they have no clan to back them, and its what one of our MVPs nemo refers to as "cyber bullying". Most recently a suspected hacker was DEFENDED by TA and friends just because he was friends with them. The people accusing him who took the time and effort were "rep abused" and down voted by TA and friends. Because it looked like the majority of the users were supporting this he got away scot free and we only banned him later when we realized what happened.
These are two examples of "rep abuse" which I have warned them many many times that the reputation (the karma +vote -vote thing) should be given based on the merit of posts and not because you dont like the person or are friends with them. Yes it is not a perfect system and is abusable but it doesnt mean you should abuse it. They take warnings extremely lightly to the point they don't even feel they deserve it when a legitimate ban is carried out.
I'm sorry Nirvana, but I don't feel that you should bring the topic regarding TA and some of their members that "abuse" the rep system on SC2SEA on this argument and more importantly, on TeamLiquid. I also feel that you shouldn't mention the real identity of k!llua, which is, according to your post, TAdippa, just because, according to your post, "so people know where you're coming from rather then portray it like they were posts from neutral members.".
I don't want to make any baseless personal assumptions regarding this statement, but I just want to say that just because he is a member of TA doesn't mean that people should treat him differently regarding his post, as if he's defending his friend, or as if he's picking on a side. There is nothing wrong with being on the same clan and posting as if he's a neutral member.
This is a perfect example of how i visioned the rep system to be used, for e.g the community show of support for yoon after the gus saga when he was denied his ticket to PPSL.
So community support is only ok when it's a part of the community you approve of, supporting a figure you agree with? Karma systems bandwagon, and spammed support for Yoon is the same concept as spammed disapproval of Benji. 'Rep abuse' doesn't exist - if a lot of people are casting their votes, that means whatever's happening influences a lot of people. TA having the weight to 'abuse' the system is because TA is a huge part of the community.
I'd really prefer it if you took this out of the tournament thread - I recognize that this discussion probably can't take place evenly on SC2SEA.com, but this isn't the best section for it. I'd personally prefer that tournaments are not run by the same people that control forums so that there's more neutral arbitration of these issues, but what can you do.
First of all, I'm also in clan Terror Australis (TA) with Deth. Please, if you are a reasonable person I hope you realise my clan affiliation does NOT change who I am as a person, nor the views and principles I subscribe to. - from ME.
btw k!llua = TAdippa btw, is a member of TA, the same clan as deth, as is scarecrow who was their ex leader. And i feel you should at least declare that so people know where you're coming from rather then portray it like a post from a neutral member.
Regarding what I said, how does someone's clan affiliation change their personal views or principles? It doesn't. So what relevance does it have as to who is doing the posting? These are PEOPLE'S opinions not a clan's opinions. Riichard (current TA leader) told me not to get involved to prevent TA getting pictured as some group of monsters who have nothing better to do than troll, but I have because AS A PERSON I could not let this go.
We're talking about Deth (Daniel)(he too is a person) not the bloody clan. Leave clan affiliation out of the one person issue we're trying to discuss.
But sometimes when one of them disagrees on something they get together and downvote people they dont like over small issues. Im not saying all of TA behave like this, they have some perfectly good members.
It was a shit joke. It got -rep for being a shit joke. That does not mean HOLYSHIT TA REP TRAIN AT IT AGAIN. It means HEY FUCK we're a large clan, and we frequent the community site, and WE each individually thought the joke was shit. Keep. Clan. Out. Of. This.
Most recently a suspected hacker was DEFENDED by TA and friends just because he was friends with them. The people accusing him who took the time and effort were "rep abused" and down voted by TA and friends. Because it looked like the majority of the users were supporting this he got away scot free and we only banned him later when we realized what happened.
You're right, because nobody from FaDe downvoted at all, only TA right?
NirvAnA please PLEASE mate take the time to think about what you're saying and how you're directing this discussion because its becoming you bashing the fuck out of the clan I love rather than defending your decision to ban Deth (due to forum issues) from a tournament. He's been positing evidence every step of the way, please do the same.
These are two examples of "rep abuse" which I have warned them many many times that the reputation (the karma +vote -vote thing) should be given based on the merit of posts and not because you dont like the person or are friends with them. Yes it is not a perfect system and is abusable but it doesnt mean you should abuse it.
If the system is flawed and abusable and ultimately leads to drama like this, REMOVE IT! Make the obvious decision that should have been made as soon as issues like this were exposed to save us all the trouble of people complaining when someone doesn't like what they post.
Its all good and well to fill the forums with smiley faces for all, but if you can't take the good and the bad with the system, maybe just remove the -rep and keep the +rep? Would that not solve the issue??
Your "perfect example" of what you envisioned with the rep system even displays the flaw... "Aeropunk: C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!" (negative rep). Pointless isn't it? If the rep system is the reason for the core of any of these complaints simply remove it as logic would suggest.
On January 08 2012 02:25 aFganFlyTrap wrote: please dont come back any time soon
Oh I'll definitely still be around to watch the clan league, but I've said what I wanted to deth with regards to the ban issue and I'll hold my tongue on that, if you're keen to reopen a discussion though, I'd highly advise you to use the PM system instead.
First off, i'm a mod of sc2sea. I've hosted quite a few tournaments for SC2SEA and been around long enough (few weeks after site creation) to give my standpoint of the money matter.
The statement was made off based off donations in this month only. So what about the money that goes into SC2SEA CO (SC2SEA's Weekly Community Open) every week ? What about all the money that went into every single SC2SEA tournament so far ? You seem to forget that when the site was first created, and all the tournaments happened, sc2sea had almost ZERO donations. Through this, there's the cost to run the site. Also, you don't see how much effort Nirvana even puts into this site. How much work he has to do every week handling all the tournaments, with tons of other commitments (eg, his wife). Sure, he has the moderating team to help him out with everything, but if anyone is unsure of anything, they still have to look for him. Take a look at all the things he has added to the site. Also, the sc2sea store was something the COMMUNITY wanted from sc2sea. I remember there were tons of posts asking where to get filco keyboards, KR keys and stuff. Then someone posted an idea about sc2sea having a store to sell stuff like this. The other stuff that were added into the store was VOTED by community members (Shirts). TGM started off as something to help improve the level of SEA players, and I'm sure everyone that has subscribed to TGM will admit that they have improved. For all the effort the people that wrote the TGM have put in, they obviously do deserve some payment out of it. Do also remember that TGM is CONSTANTLY updated with new content, not a one time manual. TGM writers still have to work on it every week to add new content, and Nirvana is the one that does most of the work / formatting / proofreading after the other writers have finished writing articles.
Last, insulting of mods and admins is definitely severe and the person deserves to be out of the site completely, just my 2c.
If you don't respect the people that have done everything for the entire community, you don't deserve to be part of it.
TL;DR: You don't know how much work all the mods and Nirvana has put into sc2sea. You people have to stop judging and be thankful for the site that was created for the entire SEA community to improve and socialise.
PS: Deth's and Nirvana's argument should really be taken into private. This is negatively affecting the entire SEA community.
I like that the two rep comments by Maynarde from nirvAnA's post say "hi guys" Hi Maynarde... ... ... AANNNNNYWAY, I'm also a member of TA - before I get any further into this... The whole thing has turned into two personalities clashing, neither one able to stand down...
Why don't we all just watch this and think about the important things... and be a bit happier.. :D
The ban is over the top imo, site ban - yes.. tournament ban I feel unfounded. Since there are people competing in the tournament that aren't even members of sc2sea.com and PROVEN hackers are given the option to work off their ban with 'good behaviour', something that isn't on offer for deth - who's (alleged - I'm not siding on this) crime was forum trolling... This doesn't seem suiting to the crimes committed...
regardless, this isn't going anywhere - I suggest that this discussion be taken off forums and into private messages.. personalities put aside and some sort of compromise found.
another note, the SEACL is going to be awesome.. to the sc2sea community, admins and members of TA:- WROOVVV ROOOOOOWW
EDIT: Also, I think by "you owe the community shit blah blah" comment made by deth.. means - community makes sc2sea.com - with out the community there is no site... the community even reach into their pocket to donate because they love the site so much.. and with that support (and I believe deth means) the admin team of sc2sea.com owe the community quality content...
So what about the money that goes into SC2SEA CO (SC2SEA's Weekly Community Open) every week ? What about all the money that went into every single SC2SEA tournament so far ? You seem to forget that when the site was first created, and all the tournaments happened, sc2sea had almost ZERO donations. Through this, there's the cost to run the site.
I don't believe anyone here is disputing that nirvAnA has previously been EXTREMELY out of pocket for the running and supporting of the site and community events, please do not take what I have said to mean "for all time". My comments regarding the finances of the site were relating to current day, as was Deth's comment.
Also, you don't see how much effort Nirvana even puts into this site. How much work he has to do every week handling all the tournaments, with tons of other commitments (eg, his wife). Sure, he has the moderating team to help him out with everything, but if anyone is unsure of anything, they still have to look for him.
Again nobody is disputing that nirvAnA has put a metric fucktonne of work into SC2SEA and the SEA community in general, but I fail to see what this comment has to do with Deth being banned from an event for a forum infraction. If I were a mod I'd flag this post and ask you to stay on topic!
Also, the sc2sea store was something the COMMUNITY wanted from sc2sea. I remember there were tons of posts asking where to get filco keyboards, KR keys and stuff. Then someone posted an idea about sc2sea having a store to sell stuff like this. The other stuff that were added into the store was VOTED by community members (Shirts). TGM started off as something to help improve the level of SEA players, and I'm sure everyone that has subscribed to TGM will admit that they have improved.
I don't think anybody has disputed this either, however from how I read it Deth did mention that part of the money made goes to nirvAnA and as a result he does legitimately owe the community the opportunity for input (as Deth said in a less assertive way).
Last, insulting of mods and admins is definitely severe and the person deserves to be out of the site completely, just my 2c.
Fair call, ban him from SC2SEA then. I believe the EVENT in question is the SEACL (not the SC2SEACL). If we're going to sell this as an event for the SEA community we cannot dare have the nerve to claim that SC2SEA is the beginning and end of it, therefore it cannot dictate who participates (besides eligibility based on SEA activity / residency of course). Yes there's a high degree of SC2SEA control and involvement because ultimately SC2SEA made the event, but a forum infraction should never ever ever ever ever equal a tournament ban.
If you don't respect the people that have done everything for the entire community, you don't deserve to be part of it.
Respect is not what is in question here. Deth posted his opinion on the event, got smacked for it. Deth posted -rep due to nirvAnA not giving any consideration to Deth's post, and in his -rep reminded nirvAnA that the community doesn't start and end with him and he owes the people of that community the right to have their views heard and considered. This point should not have been directed at nirvAnA directly as that was just not the right thing to do, but the result of that is where we are now... discussing an unfair tournament ban.
You people have to stop judging and be thankful for the site that was created for the entire SEA community to improve and socialise.
I'm a part of the community too. "The site was created for the entire SEA community." This means we are all entitled to equal opportunity and opinion.
Ultimately the decision made regarding Deth's forum conduct (in my opinion) was the wrong one. This could have been handled better and more intelligently. This issue has now only served to damage the community as a whole in both stability and credibility on the world stage.
Let me ask you all this. If someone got banned, lets say, Zanooku... from Blizzard's forums due to being a colossal troll or infractions or whatever... Would they prevent him from signing up and participating in a Blizzard ran tournament (lets imagine say a Community Open, if they were to ever run one)?
EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/benjirepu.png/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/yoon.png/)
