On January 08 2012 03:11 BakaInu wrote: I suggested for the rep system to be removed as well as it is quite abuseable, and it makes my life difficult. -BakaInu (Moderator, Tournament Admin for SC2SEA)
TL;DR: Disrespect us, we ban, then if you don't like it, run your own tournament.
It makes your life difficult? Poor you.
On January 08 2012 00:32 aLt)nirvana wrote: About deths "profiting from the community" comments:
sc2sea costs $305 to run every month. $175 for hosting and the rest for money for our community tournaments. For the first year the site was run with expenses coming out of my own pocket and time. Yes i do owe paying customers (The Strategy guide i wrote with glade) and people who buy TW keys a service, which i do perform extremely well as evidenced by the testimonials and i have explained this to deth. I introduced the shop partly so sc2sea could become sustainable and we could absorb all the running costs instead of having to depend on uncertain donations. But apart from these premium features everything else on the is free, and run on our own expense and time. The site alone by itself loses money every month without the shop. deth you have no idea how much the keys cost. Yes we make a small profit but ours are applied on a single page with the code, its different from the methods of other shops, its instant and you don't have to go through the mypoints system. Again you are making wild accusations.
What i refer to about the amount of money lost is in terms of opportunity cost. I easily put 4-5 hours a day on average, every day into sc2sea for the last 1 and a half years. My previous job earned me about $80 an hour. $80 x 550 days = 4hours x550days x 80 = $176,000. I have an honours degree in finance but the site was taking up so much of my time. He is taking everything out of context to portray me in the worse possible way.
On January 08 2012 12:04 ChadMann wrote: Ahh.. the last three posts... where is the up-rep button on this site!?!?
Perhaps we need a nirvAnA v deth grudge match to determine the length of the ban?.. deth wins, he comes back halfway thru the league. deth loses, he misses out of the first half of the next SEACL also.
I personal don't appreciate the stigma being placed on TA members, as a member of that fine clan myself... TA is a really really big clan.. and many members frequent the teams Team Speak channel, when on that channel the team often discuss things that are happening on sc2sea.com - and that can probably explain the 'group/mob mentality' that is suggested, however its actually someone on Team Speak saying "ehh, this guy said this - I don't agree, what do you guys think?" then that turns into a few people posting their opinion of the post through the rep system... I would have thought that was what it was meant for. Although the TA members seem to be a lot more vocal about their opinions.
Also, comparing deth's blunt responses and portrayal of his own opinions to the racism and extreme negativity and trolling from AZKZiek (aka Zanooku, aka a million other accounts on sc2sea.com) is quite over the top. Regardless of who brought it up - no one anywhere that I've seen, deserves to be compared to Ziek, that guy went full retard, never go FULL retard.
But really, lets just move on and try and make this event as good as it can be. And deth and nirvAnA, I implore you to put this issue aside, compromise and apologise. Ban deth from playing in the first half of the event, or disallow him from playing in an Ace position.. What ever happens though, deth needs also to come back more positive and keep his opinions to himself and his clan mates. Rather than inflaming any bad blood between he and nirvAnA any further.
TA are a great bunch of guys, and i'd like to think a largely respected clan, who have a great history.
Sc2sea is the premier community site of SEA, hosting many events for all leagues and level of players, as well as additional features many have mentioned, coaching, streaming, articles, chat, games, etc. Many people love the site and what it provides, and i'd like to think support the team who do a lot of work in the background out of their own time and often money.
It is a shame Deth won't be playing in CL#2. He's one of my favourite players to watch, both online and at lan. However, i understand nirvana's reasoning for the ban from this event. It's not the first time Deth has been banned from sc2sea, whatever the reasons, and given that CL#2 is run through and organised there, the decision falls upon the nirvana/admin team and sponsors. Same would apply if a tournament was run through TL i'd assume.
Hopefully we can see Deth in CL#3.
Not sure what posting here was meant to achieve? Don't think there was likely to be a positive outcome for himself, or the SEA scene/CL#2 dragging up conversations between people, which probably should have remained private. Hopefully both parties put this behind them, and we can all watch some quality matches in CL#2!
ZanooKu here, time to weigh in (My other account here is banned because of a comment I made stating females are making it into pro teams when there is more deserving players out there, go figure...)
First of all, it may come to a shock to everyone, but I'm going to provide an unbiased opinion (I don't get along with SC2SEA, or deth, or even TA, hell even most of SEA, suprise suprise) over this matter.
First things first, the tournament organisers simply cannot ban deth from the tournament. They don't OWN SEA (South East Asia), so they cannot brand it THE SEA tournament (If anything, they'd have to call it the SC2SEACL to get away with it from a legal stance if they wanted to exclude deth).
The administration team on SC2SEA is garbage, absolute garbage. They introduce features like a repuation system, honestly, who incorporates such a feature for something aimed at pre-adolescent children?
Time and time again I have spoken to Nirvana about his "rep" system, and how he used it to justify bans "People don't like you so you're banned" (not in those exact words, but basically the message he had portrayed). Who cares if the opinions were legitimate and people just didn't like the person? right? So when I registered another account under a different alias and negative repped some comments that were truly justified, the friends of those users "anti-repped" the comments to counteract any kind of "negative number". That in itself shows how useless it is.
As much as I dislike the majority of the TA group (EdgE/Voices are excluded, they're actually good at this game), I believe some of their actions are justified, but were still a little overboard. Special shoutout to ChadMann for being the biggest retard I've ever met.
Back to SC2SEA and Nirvana. Many moons ago I led a SEA team (rLs), which I was not allowed to play for in the first tournament for teams based on the fact that I was banned. This was LONG before there was any major threats, or any "racial" slurs (If you ask me, racism is just another insult that is no more harmful than calling them fat or a faggot, it's the garbage morals people live by rather than the context of the actual word). I was given no leniancy, which I thought was wrong. If SC2SEA want to carry out those rules and not "back down or go back on their rules", then they have no choice to keep Deth banned (even though I believe they shouldn't).
Nirvana is the kind of person who will do what he can to get what he wants at anyone elses expense. As it was stated before, SC2SEA basically holds the monopoly of SC2 tournaments, but that could very, very easily change. If the members of SC2SEA (the bigger clans like nGen, TA, etc and all of their friends were to leave your garbage website and start a new one, you would slowly crumble and there would be nothing left. You owe everything you have to them.)
You will owe me an apology if you decide to allow Deth to play (which at this state looks unlikely).
Btw nirvana, (irrelevant information now) why u no gg when u lose to me u scrub?
I would also like to point out that this tournament isn't even funded by SC2SEA. As written in the OP,
A big shoutout to iAustralia Sharn "JoFritzMD" Kemp
He came up with the initiative to sponsor a series of tournaments to further the eSports community in Australia. I've asked him to extend this to the whole of SEA, which the Oceania region forms the majority, and he kindly accepted. As such, over the next 2 months, we will see the return of the SEACL with approximately $750 in total prizes up for grabs! $500 in cash is sponsored by JoFritzMD and $250 in product prizes will be sponsored by sc2sea.com. You can learn more about the generous JoFritzMD by reading his TL blogs over
All the cash is put up by jofritzmd, and the product prizes would have likely cost sc2sea nothing. If this was an actual sc2sea tournament I could handle a ban (co, masters cup), but its a SEA wide league, not paid for by the site.
I would appreciate people to recognise this.
EDIT: The fact that nirvana is using a tournament sponsored by an independant 3rd party whom wanted to further Australian esports in order to punish me for being critical and blunt is disgusting.
I can't believe there's such a long thread about two people being a dick to a tournament organised, getting banned by said organiser and then bitching and moaning..
On January 08 2012 14:18 SnuCtups wrote: Special shoutout to ChadMann for being the biggest retard I've ever met.
Lucky for you, we've actually never met. Zanooku, I respect that you give no shits about what anyone else thinks about you or what you say. But your a bm, racist, narrow minded troll. You've been banned indefinitely for your actions against sc2sea.com and the SEA community. deth has not caused nearly half the up-roar, negativity or personal insults you have. Your the king of that one, mate.
Regardless of how retarded Ziek is.. lets all just move on and try and have a fun, exciting and competitive SEACL. This thread has been derailed long enough.
On January 08 2012 14:26 deth wrote:
All the cash is put up by jofritzmd, and the product prizes would have likely cost sc2sea nothing. If this was an actual sc2sea tournament I could handle a ban (co, masters cup), but its a SEA wide league, not paid for by the site.
I would appreciate people to recognise this.
EDIT: The fact that nirvana is using a tournament sponsored by an independant 3rd party whom wanted to further Australian esports in order to punish me for being critical and blunt is disgusting.
On January 08 2012 14:18 SnuCtups wrote: Special shoutout to ChadMann for being the biggest retard I've ever met.
Woah let me stop you right there buddy, that there is called cyber bullying and as a former cyber bully victim I will not tolerate it. Please apologise to ChadMann for he is a gentleman, a scholar, a proud homeowner and a family man.
It always sucks when a top SEA player can't be allowed to an event.
After reading everything, I can kinda see what happened. Deth: cos you are young you prob dont know. Nirvana doesn't give a shit about you (in reference to 'personal vendetta against me'). Trust me, noone cares about people stirring shit if they are 10 years younger than you. Anything he has done against you would have been done to anybody else. Failing to see this means that you need to think about it a little more.
I know you told me before this incident that you don't like nirvana because he is biased (don't remember about what). If you think about it, Nirvana built the site from scratch, created a SEA version of TL, and from my knowledge has spent a lot of his effort and time in improving things for the community. In my honest opinion, and if you weren't emotionally involved in this, you can see that he can do whatever the fuck he wants to do. If people weren't happy with what his 'whatever the fuck he wants to do', sc2sea.com would not be where it is now. If people don't like it they shouldn't use it, its a simple fact of life lol. If I owned a site, I don't think I would have ever banned someone 7 times. I'm pretty sure 2 warnings to anyone is enough; then id get rid of them permanently. In fact, I think giving 7 chances is not very smart (looking at it from the outside); it is ineffective and inefficient to waste time like that.
'"yea nirvana cant handle people using the rep system to express themselves". This deserves a ban. It isn't freedom of speech, it is more an attack on somebody. Everybody will be able to see this. So the only issue is the ban on SEACL. Well I'll save you some time; forget this post and talk with nirvana and his admin friends for SEACL. From what I hear some admins have different views, so your only chance is to convince them. Trust me, I know you think posting something like this will hurt his rep (and i know that this was your foremost priority in this post), but it just makes us SEA gamers the laughing stock of the world lol. I'm assuming you are smart enough to know what im talking about yeah? Ooorrrrr, you can keep trying to waste your efforts on this, and try hurt the reputation of a guy half way around the world thats a decade your senior (which i told ya wont happen. noone gives a shit about younger people (in terms of trouble)).
something that pops up though is that TA supported the banning of zan from the site AND tournaments, which was due to him being a repeat offender. You are also are repeat offender, so you shuold be arguing against bryan and other admins that the level of your crimes are not as harsh as his (prob your best shot - point to the racism). or you can think im wrong once again and try whatever else. GL man.
When idra was banned from TL.net would he have been banned from TSL or any other TL event too? If a mod would answer it would be great, just curious....
I know that people who broke rules from TSL 2 were denied in TSL 3, despite it being a completely different game (Dimaga comes to mind).
I would like to echo YoonYJ's sentiments. This is basically what I'm trying to tell you deth. Getting mad and posting bullshit like this is just spiteful and doesn't get you or nirvana anywhere. It's unconstructive.
Also, LOL at zanooku thinking his opinion is worth anything to a community which rightfully ostracized him from everything.
On January 08 2012 17:45 iaguz wrote: I know that people who broke rules from TSL 2 were denied in TSL 3, despite it being a completely different game (Dimaga comes to mind).
I would like to echo YoonYJ's sentiments. This is basically what I'm trying to tell you deth. Getting mad and posting bullshit like this is just spiteful and doesn't get you or nirvana anywhere. It's unconstructive.
Also, LOL at zanooku thinking his opinion is worth anything to a community which rightfully ostracized him from everything.
Im not getting mad, I've written everything and conducted myself with a clear head. I have tried being reasonable. I have given a sincere apology which was closed, posts deleted (including another admin on the site). 2 admins have tried to get nirvana to see reason, and many other mods and prominent community figures dont want to see me banned from the league.
The only way to actually have a constructive conversation is in a public forum where everyone can see it and not have nirvana do his usual tricks of deleting posts and shutting all critical comment down. That sort of stuff is what does get me angry, and what has gotten me the most angry in the past, along with him taking the reputation system so seriously.
This was my only avenue to do anything about his decision, in the light of other admins publicly disagreeing with him and his handling of the situation, he has been too thick-headed and stubborn to compromise. His response to my apology, claiming it was "half-hearted" along with all his other lies, then deleting rossis post, was the final straw. I felt it needed to come to light. Disagree with me all you want, but I think this is the only way a constructive outcome for me could be reached. Even if it didnt end up resulting in me being able to play (which is bullshit), at least the community at large knows whats going on here, and knows the full story.
Also the TSL bans were for win trading and hacking. Thats a terrible argument.
did i even mention zanooku at all? no, so why are you bringing it up?
Dippa, I did mate. Was just using his name as an example, if it clears things up use mine in place of his and the point is the same. There was no attempted comparison between Deth and Zanooku, it was bloody early in the morning and my brain was strained enough having to construct previous posts.
Secondly, as i am a member of aLt. I feel that my opinions would be heavily biased. As such, its pretty unfair if every TA member comes in here and defend Del/Point fingers at Bryan. I say we let the 2 grown ups settle this themselves instead of going around in circles.
I see Dippa, Deth, Chad and EdgE posting. 4/90 aint "every TA member" its a VAST minority.
This constant lumping of TA with bad rep due to issues people have had in the past and even present is total utter bullshit and you all know it. We're a damned big clan. We have a mixture of people with a mixture of viewpoints. Accept these individuals for their opinions and don't go "oh its TA again".
I haven't personally made a single aLt reference, so I expect you treat me with the same respect regarding my own clan.
N.B I find it funny you said Del instead of Deth. I physically laughed (in a good lighthearted manner due to the typo).
Lastly, @ TA, u know i love u guys but picking on Bryan when most of you or rather us dont know the whole story is unfair.
Bleh. Clan shit is back again! Remove "TA" and put "people with views alternate to that of nirvAnA" please as that is more accurate... or should I say, is accurate, where the comment directed to TA is misguided and incorrect.
As you said, you give your opinions in very straightforward and not diplomatic manner and that drove to big clashes. Nirvana simply don't want to have to deal with you and this is shared by most of sc2sea staff and organizers. If they don't want you anymore, there's no reason why they would be forced into taking you in their tournaments or on their site.
He sure does! If you could find it in your hearts to accept the man for who he is and how he voices his opinions and REALISE that his comments are NOT personal attacks then we wouldn't be in this situation. Alas, not everybody is able to read between the lines or understand the true language (and meaning) behind the words.
For me Deth you acted even more poorly in posting this thread here. I agree Nirvana stops too quickly discussions about moderation policies on sc2sea, but that was absolutely not a good reason to make such a drama here.
This is the only free forum left to discuss the matter and have your views heard, because as you so stated nirvAnA DOES stop discussions and as per aforementioned evidence DOES remove posts (tainting the flow and context of said discussion). Its censorship and its preventing the community from having a fair go.
Dox said: I'm trying to stay out of this as much as possible, but I'd just like to highlight the fact that people who have been banned from the official Blizzard/Battle.net forums are still able to play the game. I agree with this separation. This was exactly the point I was trying to make when I put my Zanooku hypothetical in a post. HERE HERE DOX!!!
First things first, the tournament organisers simply cannot ban deth from the tournament. They don't OWN SEA (South East Asia), so they cannot brand it THE SEA tournament (If anything, they'd have to call it the SC2SEACL to get away with it from a legal stance if they wanted to exclude deth). Holy hell I never thought I'd see eye-to-eye with Zanooku. If I had a rep system I'd +1 you for this sir!
I'm assuming you are smart enough to know what im talking about yeah? Ooorrrrr, you can keep trying to waste your efforts on this, and try hurt the reputation of a guy half way around the world thats a decade your senior (which i told ya wont happen. noone gives a shit about younger people (in terms of trouble)).
You take a dig at him for "attacking" someone and then do it right back? You sir are a hypocrite and should move the fuck along right now. Your views no longer have validity after that total dick move.
When idra was banned from TL.net would he have been banned from TSL or any other TL event too? If a mod would answer it would be great, just curious....
I know that people who broke rules from TSL 2 were denied in TSL 3, despite it being a completely different game (Dimaga comes to mind). Deth: TSL bans were for win trading and hacking. Thats a terrible argument.
So we ARE treating Deth's forum infringement as an equal offence to hacking?
Finally, do any of you people even claim to know Deth as well as you think you do? (does that even make sense? whatever... moving on)... For a guy like him to take the time and effort to write such an apology directed right at nirvAnA takes guts and it takes a massive shot to the pride. Deth is not a coward, Deth is not a pushover and Deth is certainly a very prideful person. I hope that entered your minds while you shrugged off his 'half-hearted apology'... but I guess it didn't.
Ultimately we're talking to closed minds here, you only wish to prove your own argument rather than address any of the concerns raised regarding it. I for one have asked many questions over the past three pages which have gone completely unanswered and as such I know you simply aren't listening (reading).
Its a shame I came into this hoping we could freely discuss the issue and reach a concession / compromise / outcome that isn't woefully unjust, but it seems I've been wasting my time. My heart actually sank to have to endure this and AS A PERSON NOT A FUCKING CLAN MEMBER it's also feeling for Deth right now. The "kid" (as Yoon would paint him) really did get the raw end of the stick here.
P.S - Yoon, what the hell? People younger than you having an opinion is not allowed? Where I live we value all people's opinions not just those of the village elders! (*No, not racism. Its a way of saying "older people". Felt I should clarify that given people's evident lack of ability to glean the true meaning of what is written, as proven by Deth's ban.)
Build a bridge, and move on.. No more posts about this shit, please. Unless you have something constructive to add or discussion about the SEACL I think the deth drama has come to an end... I don't think nirvAnA's decision is going to be swayed. The ban is set. And deth has spoken his peace and left the issues in the public domain for all to see. I say that nothing more can be added. deth will have to serve out his ban this season (fair or not - its irrelevant) and then, help lead TA to their Third consecutive SEACL title in a row next season.. :D
However, Pinder - first offence, first ban?... does he get a second chance?... WHAT ABOUT PINDER!!
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wZ4Q2.jpg)
