|
I suggested for the rep system to be removed as well as it is quite abuseable, and it makes my life difficult. It is not a pretty number when people is allowed to write words on it, giving them a loophole to avoid getting banned for harrassing other users. That being said, Deth always tries one way or another to get into trouble with sc2sea rules. I have personally warned him and infracted him multiple times, and I have been seriously lenient with most of the moderation I did. But the fact is that, we volunteered our time to run tournaments and manage the site. I have helped hosted the Community Open and BSG Open, and moderated the forums and helped grown the community for SC2SEA for over a year now and I have never gotten paid for any of the hardwork I have done, and I would definitely not appreciate getting harrassed. This is my justification for pinder's ban (as I have a personal hand in his ban), and I am sure that this can include deth's ban as well.
I'm pretty sure that most of the community would not know how difficult is it to manage a tournament, week after week after week, missing out on 5 hours a week on your life to make something amazing for the community to enjoy, and this should not be ruined by someone like deth who just comes in and just criticize without any constructiveness. I highly doubt that he understands how stressful and difficult it is to run something like this for the community and we certainly don't need his action to further stress out the team. We have to search for sponsors, get a proper format that most of the people will agree with, making the tournament post, advertise the tournament, run the tournament without any major issues, help the casters get games to cast so they have minimal down time, help with players query, update the brackets, making sure that players are not breaking any rules, making sure that the tournament runs smoothly without any part of the brackets getting lagged behind and handle the prize giving and replays. I personally ran a 256 bracket tournament alone, with minor support and it is one of the most challenging thing I ever did in my life. This is all without getting acknowledge or paid. All you guys have to do is to play. So if you think we're in the wrong for not wanting you to play in the tournament, then we are, so run your own tournament.
Nirvana has done far more for the SC2 SEA community more than anyone else, maybe up there together with Dox, and he should be respected for that, not being harrassed, discriminated and especially blackmailed. SC2SEA wouldn't have happened without the initiatives of Nirvana and the rest of the community. If you have an issue with him, do it privately. Seriously, this is not helping the scene at all.
-BakaInu (Moderator, Tournament Admin for SC2SEA)
TL;DR: Disrespect us, we ban, then if you don't like it, run your own tournament.
|
I suggested for the rep system to be removed as well as it is quite abuseable, and it makes my life difficult. It is not a pretty number when people is allowed to write words on it, giving them a loophole to avoid getting banned for harrassing other users.
Here here!
But the fact is that, we volunteered our time to run tournaments and manage the site. I have helped hosted the Community Open and BSG Open, and moderated the forums and helped grown the community for SC2SEA for over a year now and I have never gotten paid for any of the hardwork I have done, and I would definitely not appreciate getting harrassed.
All you guys have to do is to play.
TAEdarus, SC2SEA BSGCL Admin seasons 1 and 2 (2 was not active much due to being homeless, but I still tried!),
Terror Australis BSGCL Team Manager and Captain.
Would have loved to be given the opportunity to help further in the scene, as I did put my name down for further admin assistance with the SEACL and nirvAnA still has a "blank cheque" from me for any help should he ever need / request it.
So if you think we're in the wrong for not wanting you to play in the tournament, then we are, so run your own tournament.
Woah there! You don't want him to play in the tournament? I was of the understanding he was banned out of necessity for the stability of the community and this was a regrettable but avoidable outcome of his conduct on the forums?
I hope you truly do not mean to say you "don't want him" to play!
Nirvana has done far more for the SC2 SEA community more than anyone else, maybe up there together with Dox, and he should be respected for that, not being harrassed, discriminated and especially blackmailed. SC2SEA wouldn't have happened without the initiatives of Nirvana and the rest of the community. If you have an issue with him, do it privately. Seriously, this is not helping the scene at all.
Nobody is disputing nirvAnA has put a buttload of work into the community and scene, he certainly should be respected and even admired for that!
As for harassment, discrimination and blackmail I think you've taken everything a LOT out of context. Well, its either that or all the admins seemingly still do not understand Deth's motives for what he has said and done, in which case go back to page 2 (of this thread) and start over again please.
For the record, I'd like it noted that nobody is yet to address nirvAnA's comment regarding (paraphrasing) "I can do what I like and everyone simply has to accept it". To clarify, my concern here is that we're a community and this seems more like a dictatorship in this line than a community.
|
Honestly, the SC2SEA staff, and of course Nirvana have worked really really hard to bring the SC2 SEA community together. They also work hard to organize these tournaments for the community. If not for these people, we would not even have the wonderful SC2SEA community we have today. Nirvana has clearly stated that this ban is not because of a simple - rep on a post.
Regarding what I said, how does someone's clan affiliation change their personal views or principles? It doesn't.
So what relevance does it have as to who is doing the posting? These are PEOPLE'S opinions not a clan's opinions. Riichard (current TA leader) told me not to get involved to prevent TA getting pictured as some group of monsters who have nothing better to do than troll, but I have because AS A PERSON I could not let this go.
We're talking about Deth (Daniel)(he too is a person) not the bloody clan. Leave clan affiliation out of the one person issue we're trying to discuss.
Relationships and friendships between individuals can very strongly influence their personal views and principles with regards to a specific scenario. As TA Deth is both your friend and your clan mate. I'm pretty sure that would influence your opinion on the matter. Just take the example of FADE's reaction to the recent evetS incident.
TA as a whole is a very tight team ( which isn't a bad thing) . Even for myself as someone who does not post much on the forums, this much is clear. Deth even mentioned that the TA members rallied together to up-vote each other's posts to prove that the system sucked.
Banning someone from a tournament over a -1 rep on a forum post is overkill, even with deth's 'supposed' history. It's not like it can be cited anyway because posts get deleted. (Scarecrow)
From nirvana's post it was clear that the ban was not because of a -1 rep post. it was because of a string of incidents and he also stated his train of thought behind the ban.
(ill explain more later but the basic logic behind my decision was SITE BANS DO NO WORK on DETH, it has no effect because he has been banned 7 TIMES before and he doesn't care, he still can see the site he just cant post. its the SEAL that holds meaning to him and that is what would prevent him from disrespecting the mods again in the future.
Finally I just want to comment on what you just mentioned TAEdarus .
You probably don't care or think of the consequences this might have or take into consideration how much time and effort we spent to built up our community. To you, you really don't care since you're not playing, there's "nothing to lose"
You raise a valid point, this is OUR community... not just one person's. To that end, could you please address the following:
[6:49:44 PM] bryan choo -: i dont owe any shit to anyone, certiantly not deth
[6:49:48 PM] bryan choo -: i dont have to make a thread
[6:49:50 PM] bryan choo -: for rules
[6:49:57 PM] bryan choo -: i can just decide the rules myself and everyone will still play
The above comment seems very NOT community to me. Thusfar as you have not posted a retort to this I shall reserve making judgement, however I feel this certainly needs to be addressed for both the credibility of yourself and the community everyone has worked to build.
For the record, I'd like it noted that nobody is yet to address nirvAnA's comment regarding (paraphrasing) "I can do what I like and everyone simply has to accept it". To clarify, my concern here is that we're a community and this seems more like a dictatorship in this line than a community.
Your taking it totally out of context and reading his chat conversation literally without considering the overhanging factors. Nirvana went out of his way to reach out to the community to find what format, rules etc they would like. Essentially to get input to make it a community tournament. Obviously u can't always please everyone. But he wanted the community's input. He is not saying that he can just do whatever he likes and u gotta accept it. He is only saying he could have set the rules on his own. but instead he decided to get input from the community. All he is doing here is emphasizing this point that he could have set the rules, like most tournament organizers do. But instead took the trouble to reach out and gather opinions from the community.
|
On January 08 2012 03:35 Tendersteak wrote:
Your taking it totally out of context and reading his chat conversation literally without considering the overhanging factors. Nirvana went out of his way to reach out to the community to find what format, rules etc they would like. Essentially to get input to make it a community tournament. Obviously u can't always please everyone. But he wanted the community's input. He is not saying that he can just do whatever he likes and u gotta accept it. He is only saying he could have set the rules on his own. but instead he decided to get input from the community. All he is doing here is emphasizing this point that he could have set the rules, like most tournament organizers do. But instead took the trouble to reach out and gather opinions from the community.
To be exact this is the conversation me and rossi had and deth had deliberately cut off the last 2 lines to portray me in a negative light, like many of other things he is accusing me off and lifting out of context.
[7/1/2012 3:49:38 PM] bryan choo -: i dont owe any shit to anyone, certiantly not deth
[7/1/2012 3:49:41 PM] bryan choo -: i dont have to make a thread
[7/1/2012 3:49:43 PM] bryan choo -: for rules
[7/1/2012 3:49:50 PM] bryan choo -: i can just decide the rules myself and everyone will still play
[7/1/2012 3:49:56 PM] Rossi: wow
[7/1/2012 3:50:00 PM] bryan choo -: i dont even have to host a tournament
[7/1/2012 3:50:03 PM] bryan choo -: but i did do that
[7/1/2012 3:50:11 PM] bryan choo -: and that is the comment i received
[7/1/2012 3:50:15 PM] bryan choo -: do u get my point?
[7/1/2012 3:50:30 PM] bryan choo -: i actually spent more time trying to make a better tournament and received that comment
This is why things should be discussed privately. Edarus probably didn't do this on purpose either, but he took it COMPLETELY out of context and so did deth but deth did so INTENTIONALLY to portray me in a negative light from obviously private conversations.
Like tendersteak said, who by the way is a clan mate of mine but is still trying to be very reasonable- I DID NOT decide the rules by myself, it was always after discussion with our mods and after feedback from our community. And in this SEACL#2 instance I made not ONE but TWO threads to gather the communities ideas and Edarus should be well aware of that since hes actively involved with the site.
Thread 1: SEACL format discussion
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=2890
Thread 2: Which team to put tgun/glade ?
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3088
I was pretty cut when glade/tgun pulled out as a DIRECT RESULT of the negativity in the thread. At the point i started to put my foot down on the people being rude so the tournament could be salvaged. i also made those remarks above to rossi to express my frustration which basically meant "Why do I spend the extra effort and time to gather discussion for the format and listen to community feedback when all i get is drama, personal attacks on me and my mods etc? When i could have very well decided on the format on my own as many tournament organizers do and everyone would still play in it? " I was expressing my frustration for spending that extra time futilely but at no time was i ever going to do that.
The reality of it is i went through the trouble of making two very big threads (168 replies, 158 replies and the replies are WALLS OF TEXT over and over again) as well as CHANGE the rules, implementing a format which TASCARECROW himself suggested, only for other TA members to disagree and ask to change the format again just to suite them awhile later, conveniently when SQLT decided to join xGking (meaning they would lose 2 star players). And these lifting of things out of context to mislead people to try and say i "made all the rules myself" like a dictator to portray me in the worse light possible are quite ridiculous.
So are the attempts to imply I made the "ban to deliberately hurt TA", the "dictator haphazardly editing of posts and banning people" and the "do nothing but profit from the community". They are all baseless accusations and attempts to discredit what i say which I have already provided detailed explanations for earlier in this thread.
What they do not address is the crux of the matter which is
Why a tournament + site ban and not just a "A site ban" (they agree the site ban is validated) and for that I already had replied but it was ignored and all these unfounded allegations started pouring out.
Why make it a tournament ban instead of just a site ban?
+ Show Spoiler +1. The ban has to have significance or it will not be taken seriously. A site ban is close to meaningless especially in deth's case because when you're banned you can still see everything on the site. He isnt a very active forum poster so even if he is site banned it doesnt make much difference as he doesn't post much in the first place. This is also evidenced by the fact he was banned and unbanned 7 times before and have been taking these bans lightly like "slaps on the wrist". All his bans have been progressive, with first warnings, then infractions, then site bans, then this.
Would a ban on him playing in SEAL hold significance? Yes, definitely. It will be something he will take seriously and remember and hes is very likely to not make such accusatory remarks on me or the mods in the future. At the same time it is reasonable because we are not life banning him like ALOT of communities would. In just two months he will be allowed to play in next season's SEAL. Should he behave the same way as before and not learn his mistake, next time the ban will probably be increased to 2 or more seasons.
2. I can't let him play because ill be letting some one who spat in our faces play in a tournament we are taking a huge amount of time and effort to run. It feels wrong in every way and I have to set a precedence on how mods and admins should be treated. I have to protect myself and my mod team who spend countless hours of their own time running the tournaments that we play in, it is a thankless job, we don't ask you to express appreciation but directly attacking us is unacceptable. How many tournaments has baka alone organized and how many did Pinder himself play in when he made that remark to Baka? How can we continue to let these players play after saying that. Insulting / personal attacks will not be tolerated.
3. This is from Zanooku via Cure: "Funny how the TA guys are apparently saying that deth should only get given a site ban. When i got banned they were the ones saying that i should be banned from tournaments as well."
Zan was banned from the site and that banned was extended to ALL sc2sea tournaments we ran, something even TA themselves pushed for. deth is the second highest banned player on sc2sea and he has made at least 4 alternative accounts to circumvent the bans. How convenient is it for them to go back on what they said saying the site bans and tourney bans should be separate now that their team mate is the one who got it? And trying to use the Bias Angle of me intentionally wanted to hurt their team when all other logic fails? Being a top player DOES NOT exempt you from the rules nor does it let you avoid bans, you have to follow the rules like everyone else and above all DO NOT attack the mods or make wild accusations.
4. This will be the precedent now set. It doesn't matter how good at starcraft you are or what clan you are from. Insulting / personal attacks directly on moderators / admins will not be taken lightly and will result in bans from any tournaments organized by sc2sea. To quote the TL rules which i have huge respect for -
THIS IS OUR HOUSE.
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you.
Edit: In response to TAdippa's post below - It is extremely hypocritical to say you wanted glade and tgun in when the poll results available publicly to everyone, you can clearly see otherwise and there was opposition to prevent them from playing in the league as that would hurt TA's chances.
![[image loading]](http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1308/dippa1.png)
To be specific:
![[image loading]](http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/8062/dippa2.png)
I count 6 TA members there including scarecrow saying they should NOT play in the league.
The whole angle you are approaching now (after ignoring the crux of the problem siteban or site+tourney ban) by attacking me on the basis of being bias is low and is detracting from the main issue. In reference to this, these "biasness allegations" are nothing new. In our first SEASL tourney we had a new patch just come out and that screwed up Jazbas's SC2 client and he couldn't log in (i believe it was semi finals) so the tournament had to be delayed for an hour.
I felt it was reasonable to delay because it was at such a late stage of the tournament and it wasnt jazbas's fault and the blizzard rep was trying her best to fix his problem and did not know what was going on either. But because his opponent was from TA, a whole bunch of them got together and started criticizing me in the sites channel accusing me of being biased and favoring ngen for delaying the match, again a totally unfounded accusation. just the day before i delayed FXOfilthy's match as well! As the patch messed up his relocation and he didnt check before hand. I could imagine the shitstorm that would have happened if it was an aLt player instead and if I made a reasonable judgment call like that.
Every time we run a tournament, it is these few individuals who believe they deserve special treatment and make things difficult to run. They believe the rules dont apply to them, yet insist the rules be enforced on others. They believe it is "their community" yet show no respect to the admins and mods have spent hours making it what it is today. They defended their map hacking friend when was suspected, crucified another hacker not from their clan. They insisted on AZKziek being banned from the site as well as tournaments and felt their clan mate deth should only be banned from the site and NOT tournaments as well. They see deth not as some one stubborn who is unable to accept his VERY LENIENT 2 month ban and letting down his team, but see me instead as stubborn for not giving him special treatment and they rationalize it by saying im out to penalize their team "intentionally". There is some very alarming double standards going on.
=============
Lastly I will not respond to this anymore, its clearly going in circles and this is something that should have stayed in private conversation - it is embarrassing for all parties involved, and it will ultimately just end up hurting SEA and I apologise to all of you on TL who had to witness this.
|
i don't give a shit if nirvana "exposes" my real identity; it's not like i'm trying to hide or anything. (my original account on TL got banned a couple of years ago when i made a separate one, and this has been all i've used since then.)
if anyone asked me who i was or what my affiliations were, i'd answer honestly, so please don't try to pick apart my credibility by such a back-door method.
furthermore, when it came to the case of evets, he was only banned after 6 months AFTER significant community opposition. you originally wanted him banned for 3 months, which is what i said.
did i even mention zanooku at all? no, so why are you bringing it up?
the fact that you didn't want to deal with things publicly is fine, but the fact that you are NOW debating this in a public forum means you shouldn't be wiping the contributions of others (whose credibility is more or less untarnished, particularly in dox's case) from the record.
ALOT of the arguments we have in the community tend to head into a TA vs the rest of the sc2sea community direction and the above images is one of the examples of them
No, they don't. You know how large TA is; the opposition of a few or even a handful is not and never should be mistaken for representing everyone. What confuses me, however, is the fact that you basically admit this point, but not before writing an entire paragraph essentially slating the character of everyone in the team. To me, that says you're trying to make sure you can defend yourself by what you say on the record - but the impression you want people to take away is one that is deliberately and maliciously skewed.
I've been in many situations like this before where an admin has to deal with things as fairly as possible without letting emotions get in the way. I know what it's like to run big tournaments and little tournaments while dealing with absolute arseholes. Trust me, you think TA is bad from your point of view - be grateful you haven't had to deal with some of the people in the Counter-Strike community. (The guys that went to the WCG.au finals last year can testify to this.)
The only thing that should prevent people from playing in tournaments is if they undermine the integrity of the tournament by cheating. But by removing one of the best Terrans in SEA from the tournament - and let's not forget, the player who knocked out aLt, nirvana's clan from the last SEACL - it also undermines the results of the tournament.
That's why everyone wanted Glade and tgun in the tournament so badly, because it would be silly to have a competition without them. Anybody that won would essentially be undermined by the fact that they didn't beat the best. Deth is one of the best, and he should be playing. If he was in aLt he would be playing.
There has to be better options than not playing in the SEACL or not playing in any tournaments whatsoever. Nirvana, you need to let go of your pride and set a better precedent. Ban deth from the forums - but don't ruin the SEACL by banning players that deserve to participate. The SEACL belongs to everyone - not just you.
|
So sick of the letters 'TA' basically turning into a Stigma of the community. Nothing I can do any more.
|
On January 08 2012 04:16 aLt)nirvana wrote:
I was pretty cut when glade/tgun pulled out as a DIRECT RESULT of the negativity in the thread. At the point i started to put my foot down on the people being rude so the tournament could be salvaged.
Consider: where does the negativity come from? Let's recap the thread: you proposed rather unilaterally (and against the wishes of the members of the competition) to simply give the best players on the server to weaker teams, massively disadvantaging the strong teams (ie: teams that had put in more effort to be more competitive). And by weaker teams, we mean 'the teams you picked'. How did you not expect negative feedback? It's completely against the idea of a competition to give such a huge advantage to a competitor, like letting MC play for me in SSLs because I'm a low seed.
Skimming the thread, I see less 'rudeness' and more 'hey, what the fuck' as a reaction. Then when you suggest new ideas, you get positive feedback. Until you flip out at TAChampi (http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=54254&postcount=123) for saying you're finally having a decent idea - guess what, being a contributor doesn't make you immune to criticism, and it's that aggressive reaction from someone in your position that prompts direct attacks. You say you're 'gathering feedback' but you're snapping at people providing it and acting like you are somehow above the community you say you're serving. You even hint at martyring (there's so much negativity, I guess I won't run this!), which would have gotten you flat out banned from TL if you did it here.
If you want to do administrative work, distance yourself and stop trying to argue with people. This isn't the first time SEA's seen you do this.
|
Well, this is from Zanooku:
"Funny how the TA guys are apparently saying that deth should only get given a site ban. When i got banned they were the ones saying that i should be banned from tournaments as well."
Btw dippa, TAEdarus was the one that brought Zanooku into the picture in the first place.
About the matter of Nirvana banning deth from SEACL and affecting TA's chances:
Sometime ago, if i remember right, Rooney got into a fight outside and was suspended for 2 weeks. He couldn't play for his team too. Deth has to understand that his actions directly affected the chances of his team winning.
@Xeen about the "Flipping out issue":
Champi did not provide constructive feedback at all with that post. If anything, that thread was a direct and personal insult to the admin of the site. It's basically saying that he didn't respect Nirvana at all.
This was his exact post:
TAChampi: you just earnt back some of the respect i lost for you from all the other stupid things youve tried to pitch, keep it up...
This is what tgun had to say about it:
"It wasn't that Champi pointed out a stupid idea, it's that he went and shit all over Nirvana saying every idea he's had has been retarded (except that one). It was a very poorly hidden insult in a compliment."
Nirvana had every right to react the way he did. Keep in mind that Champi was NOT even banned for this comment. He was banned only when he started attacking Nirvana in the chatbox a few days later.
Note that Champi has apologised and said that he was facing real-life issues which caused him to speak in that manner. He has since been unbanned and is allowed to participate in the SEACL as this is the FIRST time he's acting this way.
We aren't banning deth from other tournaments held on the site by other contributors, (ESL,etc) . Of course those will be according to their rules and what those admins decide. How can we directly run a tournament for a player who has repeatedly insulted us time and again, and believes its our obligation to serve them regardless of any behaviour they display?
|
@Xeen about the "Flipping out issue":
Champi did not provide constructive feedback at all with that post. If anything, that thread was a direct and personal insult to the admin of the site. It's basically saying that he didn't respect Nirvana at all.
This was his exact post:
TAChampi: you just earnt back some of the respect i lost for you from all the other stupid things youve tried to pitch, keep it up...
It wasn't a post - it was a rep comment, which is what makes this seen even more ludicrous. Rep comments aren't meant to be used as a tool for "constructive posts", that's what posts themselves are there for. Rep comments are meant for flippant, off-hand one liners. Nirvana could have turned that into a positive if he wanted to.
|
since when was deth put in the same boat as zanooku!? the most vile and disgusting human being to ever grace the community -_-
so many false equivalencies -_-;;
|
Edit: In response to TAdippa's post below - It is extremely hypocritical to say you wanted glade and tgun in when the poll results available publicly to everyone, you can clearly see otherwise and there was opposition to prevent them from playing in the league as that would hurt TA's chances. To be specific: I count 6 TA members there including scarecrow saying they should NOT play in the league.
Another useless strawman argument - you've been told time, and time, and time, and time again: TA is a massive clan, stop trying brand everyone with the same brush.
ESPECIALLY when your own picture shows that I voted there should be another solution, as opposed to voting to prevent them from playing.
Also, the poll said "what do you think about glade and tgun playing as mercenaries".
That doesn't mean people were opposed to glade and tgun playing in the league whatsoever.
Please try and represent arguments honestly, you are going too far. It's not "special" treatment people want - just fairness.
edit: Because I know you'll misrepresent this: people voted for the options they were given. I know Rossi and the others were fine with tgun+glade playing if they made their own team or were already part of one (like aLt, nGen, whatever).
Also, you have no grounds for whining about attacking people based on credibility, since you tried that exact same argument on me a few pages earlier.
edit 2: for further lol's: 8 TA members voted for "there should be another option" in the polls .. but Nirvana fails to point that out.
nice play.
|
nirvana has being disingenuous down to a fine art.
|
On January 08 2012 07:03 aLtCure wrote:
@Xeen about the "Flipping out issue":
Champi did not provide constructive feedback at all with that post. If anything, that thread was a direct and personal insult to the admin of the site. It's basically saying that he didn't respect Nirvana at all.
It doesn't matter. The entire thread was derailed because Nirvana stooped to get in an internet fight with Champi. Champi is a poster, Nirvana is an admin - there are different responsibilities on the two and different impacts to their actions. If Nirvana had simply not replied to an 'unconstructive' post, the entire situation would not have arisen as the later altercations were directed at him being a dick right back. It's his responsibility to manage the community, not start fights and encourage discontent.
|
This is farking retarded.
Firstly, something like this shld have been done privately with the parties involved and perhaps a ''Meditator''(Sp?) via Skype or MSN Chat. Posting everything here with context being lifted and challenging each other to respond to taunts/questions is childish. It also influences the others who have barely know anything about the situation and cast a bad light on our community.
Secondly, as i am a member of aLt. I feel that my opinions would be heavily biased. As such, its pretty unfair if every TA member comes in here and defend Del/Point fingers at Bryan. I say we let the 2 grown ups settle this themselves instead of going around in circles.
Lastly, @ TA, u know i love u guys but picking on Bryan when most of you or rather us dont know the whole story is unfair. Saying he quit his job to focus on the site is an understatement, he didnt have time to practise for his WCG because he was so busy with it! Do u guys know that he stayed up through most nights to plan out a format for SEACL that would pleases everyone, and if i might add, TA especially?
@Deth, i was one of the first ones who expressed disappointment in you and pinder being banned from the tournament. I was looking forward to playing against the best players in SEA and i certainly consider you and pinder amongst it.
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?p=54652#post54652
Somehow, i feel that if the first step u have taken was to go up to Bryan and apologize for being a douchebag, which i feel that you were every so slightly(Biased obviously=P), all this drama would not have happened.
Finally! Lets all have a good tournament, im very excited about it and REALLY hope everything gets resolves.
|
On January 08 2012 08:15 Shortizz wrote:This is farking retarded. Firstly, something like this shld have been done privately with the parties involved and perhaps a ''Meditator''(Sp?) via Skype or MSN Chat. Posting everything here with context being lifted and challenging each other to respond to taunts/questions is childish. It also influences the others who have barely know anything about the situation and cast a bad light on our community. Secondly, as i am a member of aLt. I feel that my opinions would be heavily biased. As such, its pretty unfair if every TA member comes in here and defend Del/Point fingers at Bryan. I say we let the 2 grown ups settle this themselves instead of going around in circles. Lastly, @ TA, u know i love u guys but picking on Bryan when most of you or rather us dont know the whole story is unfair. Saying he quit his job to focus on the site is an understatement, he didnt have time to practise for his WCG because he was so busy with it! Do u guys know that he stayed up through most nights to plan out a format for SEACL that would pleases everyone, and if i might add, TA especially? @Deth, i was one of the first ones who expressed disappointment in you and pinder being banned from the tournament. I was looking forward to playing against the best players in SEA and i certainly consider you and pinder amongst it. http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?p=54652#post54652Somehow, i feel that if the first step u have taken was to go up to Bryan and apologize for being a douchebag, which i feel that you were every so slightly(Biased obviously=P), all this drama would not have happened. Finally! Lets all have a good tournament, im very excited about it and REALLY hope everything gets resolves.
We have tried so many times to talk to him an resolve it via PM's and skype. Rossi, Myself, Maynarde, Richard, Dox and others have all tried to resolve this, but he is too stubborn to come to any resolution. He has blatantly shown all throughout the rest of the thread how this IS personal, his utter dislike for myself and TA, as well has continued posting his own bias and disingenuous bullshit.
The time has come to do something about it, and TL is like, literally the only avenue I could think of to actually have a community discussion about it. Sc2sea doesn't work, he just deletes everything and makes up stories. The chatbox on the site even doesn't work for the same reason. MSN doesn't work again, Its supposedly private and he doesn't have to act with any transparency.
I feel I have been significantly wronged here, so what can I do? This thread is certainly the only option for me to take in order to get a resolution I feel is positive for myself.
EDIT:@nirv Its also pretty funny that you point out rep trains when you have clan buddies and ur friends coming on here to back you up. Not a point you can really argue over tbh.
|
|
|
First of all, let me present myself in the context. I'm a MVP of sc2sea and I'm quite close to a big part of the administration team of the site and other MVP. I'm also have very good relations with the majority of the TA members, especially Riichard, Edge, Chadmann but others too (dippa, Del, Miles etc.). But you can definitely put me in Nirvana "buddies" and I'm so proud of it. 
I have no relations with Deth since he he scarcely post on the forum of sc2sea. Being French myself and living in France, I don't have IRL relations with people actually in SEA, so I don't know him at all.
Let's begin by talking of this wonderful community around sc2sea because I have the occasion. I don't put it in spoilers because it's the most important part of my message.
I play sc2, for a bit more of 1 year, for fun, as the majority of players, without any intention of building real skill because it's hopeless with the time I have for that. I discovered sc2sea by chance 6 months ago. I had no reason to go there since I'm at the other side of the word. What i discovered there was far more than a forum, far more than a site, it was a community. A community with people helping each other, Grand Master players taking from their time to help bronzies every day, with friendship between people and so within the most multicultural and multi-ethnic region of Battle.net (SC2). I begun by lurking as for so many forums then helping Bronze player myself. I got encouraged by the Administration team and quickly found myself passing all my free time at reading stuff there and posting crazy Replay Analysis nearly every 2 days for people from Bronze to Grand Master. I even coached several bronze and silver players from Singapore, Australia and ... England. Yes England, on sc2sea because that site has attracted people from everywhere, Canada, England, Azerbaidjan, Sueden, US, Peru, everywhere.
This because it's a wonderful site for sc2 players, the better in the word except Team Liquid forum (very different objectives). It is wonderful because there are a lot of people that work for other and dedicate their time to other. And the main engine of all that is Nirvana. There is no sc2sea, how it is today, without him. He have made an incredible job creating things and encouraging even nobodies like me to contribute according to their qualities.
So if you have to remember one thing, it's that sc2sea is an awesome place to be for SC2 players.
Now on the deth gate.
Deth, you don't like Nirvana and Nirvana don't like you in return. As you said, you give your opinions in very straightforward and not diplomatic manner and that drove to big clashes. Nirvana simply don't want to have to deal with you and this is shared by most of sc2sea staff and organizers. If they don't want you anymore, there's no reason why they would be forced into taking you in their tournaments or on their site.
Dox can still accept you in the tournament he makes, there's no problem with that and he and Nirvana will stay perfectly friend. Everyone do what he wants with his organization. I'm a Warhammer 40K tournament organizer. I can tell you that nobody will force me to take someone that has misconducted in my tournament or elsewhere.
If Kobe Bryan is caught dealing drug in a party, he would be banned by the NBA for a certain time, even if it's not stated in the rules : You're not allowed to deal drugs. You have to behave in a honorable way. I think you misconducted too much with Nirvana, being the head of the organizer team and head of SEACL. Don't tell me you have not, I was here. Downrepping him constantly was super aggressive. Downreps are rare on sc2sea and you have hammered him a lot with those. I also remember the post you made about the "10 ladder games with Nirvana". It was just mean and not constructive.
For me Deth you acted even more poorly in posting this thread here. I agree Nirvana stops too quickly discussions about moderation policies on sc2sea, but that was absolutely not a good reason to make such a drama here.
Why on Earth do you want to force him to take you back. The ONLY way was to be humble and accept to follow the rules and being a nice and contributive guy on sc2sea as Del has done when back from his own ban. Not doing that, you're acting as far more stubborn that him and you could deserve extension of your tournament ban. If I was in the shoes of Nirvana, I would definitely do it.
For God sake, you just have to amend and change your attitude on sc2sea.
For the others (because deth will remember it), when the drama first unraveled I posted this :
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3088&highlight=SEACL&page=8Well Nirvana (and a lot of people) vs TA again ... [Added now : in fact it's not TA in a whole but some people of TA, deth being one of the main] Last time it happened I told you [Nirvana] 2 things: First, never underestimate the support you have from 95% of the people here, the silent overwhelming majority. Whatever the subject, in the end of the day, it's the guy that has 400 threads on this forum, that writes tons of arguments in the discussion, organizes a ton of things, has done 80% of the replay analysis in TGM section, has written multiple blogs, has written most of the TGM Manual and maintained it, has started this site in the first place, has organized the T-Shirts printing, the sales of the Korean licenses, has done the advertising for the site, that has welcomed new people here (look in New to the forum thread), has been nice to everyone whatever his level and given 2nd and 3rd and 4rth and 5th ... and 10th chance to people even if they have offended him personally (Del), has encouraged all good initiatives here (how many guys like Frog or Maynarde or crAzerk or Pig would have done what they did here without you encouraging them permanently ?), and number of things I can't list here, it's that guy against people who only say "I don't like this". People are silent but they are not stupid and know the difference between hard work done for the community and "cool attitude". I'm glad you finally understood it. That will give you enough self-confidence in this support to just brush aside destructive comments from a few and not overreact : "You don't like it but don't give arguments as to why?" "Be certain I'm very sad about it. Now let's go back to work." In other words "The dog barks, the Caravan just passes" (don't know if this proverb exists in English). Secondly, I proposed to open a topic on "free speech" on SC2sea since that's the pretext some TA members were giving to attack you. That would allow the silent majority to express their opinion about it. TA guys taken individually are just normal people, not better or worse than any other. You find awesomely nice guys among them (Riichard, Edge <3 ) and great community builders too (Del - wait, what did I just say ? :D) and good people. But they have that painful habit of becoming bullies sometimes when they act as a group. Certain don't participate but there are always enough "followers of the Alpha males" or enough who defend blindly a member of the group that has received an ass kick, even deserved, that makes "TA" in a whole look like bullies. We all have experienced it and 90% of people not from TA (and I'm absolutely sure a large part of TA members too), don't like that at all. A thread putting things clearly on the table would allow people to tell them and could change things deeper than just banning every month some TA members when they cross the line. Frankly that chronic mini-war does no good to the community, we should solve it once and for all, and the only way to do that is putting the things on the table clearly. There is no community without you but there is no community without TA members too. Now, Riichard, you're the boss of TA now, that's your job to make things right and to put an end to this war. They have elected you, now high time they listened to you. [Added now : I was not listened on the second point again, that's, in my opinion, a mistake]
|
I'm trying to stay out of this as much as possible, but I'd just like to highlight the fact that people who have been banned from the official Blizzard/Battle.net forums are still able to play the game. I agree with this separation.
|
I'm trying to stay out of it too - but in light of growing the SEA community and growing eSports in our region, i must say that i love the idea of personality in the game, as Broodwar Pros had very little and now that SC2 has come along there are a lot more pros with beefs and issues with other players and it only makes the game more interesting.
The games would be much more exciting with the players in it and not just being banned for saying some stuff on the internet, yes it may have been bad, but did IdrA get banned from GSL saying things about other players? No. It only made those games more exciting.
Let's get past this and just play some damn games. Besides, knowing this story would be great for international spectators as they'd have more of a reason and cheer for a particular side and have an appeal to a story.
On a side note : Why are you both speaking to everyone as if their is a judge and you're on trial. Loosen up sort it out and most importantly
Lets play some STARCRAFT!
|
Ahh.. the last three posts... where is the up-rep button on this site!?!?
Perhaps we need a nirvAnA v deth grudge match to determine the length of the ban?.. deth wins, he comes back halfway thru the league. deth loses, he misses out of the first half of the next SEACL also. 
I personal don't appreciate the stigma being placed on TA members, as a member of that fine clan myself... TA is a really really big clan.. and many members frequent the teams Team Speak channel, when on that channel the team often discuss things that are happening on sc2sea.com - and that can probably explain the 'group/mob mentality' that is suggested, however its actually someone on Team Speak saying "ehh, this guy said this - I don't agree, what do you guys think?" then that turns into a few people posting their opinion of the post through the rep system... I would have thought that was what it was meant for. Although the TA members seem to be a lot more vocal about their opinions.
Also, comparing deth's blunt responses and portrayal of his own opinions to the racism and extreme negativity and trolling from AZKZiek (aka Zanooku, aka a million other accounts on sc2sea.com) is quite over the top. Regardless of who brought it up - no one anywhere that I've seen, deserves to be compared to Ziek, that guy went full retard, never go FULL retard.
But really, lets just move on and try and make this event as good as it can be. And deth and nirvAnA, I implore you to put this issue aside, compromise and apologise. Ban deth from playing in the first half of the event, or disallow him from playing in an Ace position.. What ever happens though, deth needs also to come back more positive and keep his opinions to himself and his clan mates. Rather than inflaming any bad blood between he and nirvAnA any further.
♥ from ChadMann
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/dippa1.png/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/802/dippa2.png/)
