TLDR: for players not familiar with the development of our league in the SEA scene - We will be hosting a "SEA ONLY" team/clan league spanning 4 divisions, and FA Cup All-Kill tournament to run on the side as well. Both tournaments will have a total prize pool of $750. Like football, any team signed up to the league has automatic entry to the FA Cup too.
League: Tier 1 will be for the very best players in SEA, with GLaDe, tgun, MaFia, PiG amongst others all having confirmed their Team's participation. Tier 2,3 and 4 teams will be allocated fairly so they can compete with other teams of similar ability. As a guideline tier 2 would be masters/gm, Tier 3 - Diamond/Plat and Tier 4 BSGs. This is so everyone will have a chance to play regardless of their league. Our previous BSG Clan leagues and PD CLan leagues have been very successful and with that in mind our aim was for the whole community to participate in one big awesome SEA league. Theres a promotion system in place as well so clans that improve advance to the league above next season.
You can also sign up in our main thread but we prefer if you sign your team up here if you're from TL so this thread stays bumped and other SEA players who just visit TL will know about this league too!
SEACL#2 Registration thread
Note:The graphic work in this thread has been done by Frogmite; they are not official and if someone can help him to make better stuff he'll be happy
A big shoutout to iAustralia Sharn "JoFritzMD" Kemp
He came up with the initiative to sponsor a series of tournaments to further the eSports community in Australia. I've asked him to extend this to the whole of SEA, which the Oceania region forms the majority, and he kindly accepted. As such, over the next 2 months, we will see the return of the SEACL with approximately $750 in total prizes up for grabs! $500 in cash is sponsored by JoFritzMD and $250 in product prizes will be sponsored by sc2sea.com. You can learn more about the generous JoFritzMD by reading his TL blogs over here!
Tier 1: "Sharn Kemp SEA Premier League" - 8 Teams Tier 2: "SC2SEA Championship League" 8-10 Teams Tier 3: "SC2SEA League 1" 8-10 Teams Tier 4: "SC2SEA League 2" 8-10 Teams
Head Admins: The SC2SEA team consisting of Frogmite, Maynarde, Eddie and nirvAnA will oversee and administer the whole league, with Frogmite taking on the major role in the general running of the league. They will be helped by other admins as well in the running of the individual leagues.
Promotion / Integration of leagues: There will be 4 divisions for SEACL, each one corresponding to a different level of skills. All the 4 divisions will work together with a system of promotion/demotion. What we propose here is to be implemented too for the SEACL season 3 and subsequent seasons, with the only difference being the teams that have been promoted/demoted.
How works promotion/demotion system?
At the end of the season: Last two teams of Tier 1 will play Up/Down matches GSL style with the top two teams of Tier 2. The top 2 winners will play in Tier 1 for next season, the losers will be playing for Tier 2. Last two teams of Tier 2 will play Up/Down matches GSL style with the top two teams of Tier 3. The top 2 winners will play in Tier 2 for next season, the losers will be playing for Tier 3. Last two teams of Tier 3 will play Up/Down matches GSL style with the top two teams of Tier 4. The top 2 winners will play in Tier 3 for next season, the losers will be playing for Tier 4.
It sounds complicated, but it's not. If you are a team leader, then just register your team(s) in this thread as explained below and we will take care of the rest.
The 4 leagues:
Tier 1: Sharn Kemp SEA Premier League
Teams invited: xGking, TArcMSI , SQLT, inFiMiTH, aLt, Mski, SPR, Herocraft (I'll still have to confirm with MiTH / inFi about that arrangement)
What is herocraft? An old clan GLaDe is reviving and the final invited tier 1 team led by GLaDe & tgun. The majority vote wanted them to play in some capacity, just not necessarily as mercs. It's a great way of showcasing some of SEA's top unsponsored players to the sponsors of current and future teams. Glade can pick out some unknowns and bring them into the spotlight. To allow Herocraft space, the smallest team MiTH has been suggested to join with inFi this season, as both RedArchon and Indy are members of inFi already it makes sense. The format has been changed to require 5 players instead of 4 as a result, to balance this team as well to make teams be rewarded for having more depth.
Admins: to be defined Casters: to be defined Prizes: 300$+ for the winning team (the + is because the prize pool can only get bigger) Format: 5 players per match day including a higher weighted Ace match. Game 1: Bo3 (1point) Game 2: Bo3 (1point) Game 3: Bo3 (1point) Game 4: Bo3 (1point) Game 5: Ace game: Bo3 (2points) Draws are possible. Registration: 5 to 12 players.
Tier 2: SC2SEA Championship League
Teams: open to all, no 1v1 league ranking restrictions. Admins: to be defined Prizes: 2 TW/KR sc2 accounts worth $120 for the clan to share Format: Same as Tier 1 Registration: 5 to 12 players. No playoffs.
Tier 3: SC2SEA League 1
Teams: open to all, no 1v1 league ranking restrictions. Admins: Erasmus + Stallion Casters: to be defined Prizes: 3 TGM subscriptions worth $120 for 6 months Format: Same as Tier 1 Registration: 5 to 12 players. No playoffs.
Tier 4: SC2SEA League 1
Teams: open for all, no 1v1 league ranking restrictions. Admins: Maynarde + ? Casters: to be defined Prizes: Professionally Designed Clan logo Format: Same as Tier 1 Registration: 5 to 12 players. No playoffs.
Tentative Dates:
Kick-off:19th January 2012 Length: 7 weeks + 5 weeks for SEA Clan Cup (held concurrently on a different day) End of SEACL season: 1st march 2012
By registering a team to the SEACL, you agree with the rules listed below. Rules have been made up after our experience from SEACL season 1, PDCL and BSGCL.
[COLOR=Red]Please read the conditions below. [/COLOR]
You must be ready to play your first game at the scheduled time. Not showing up or being later than 15 minutes will result in your forfeit.
You will save replays in case of disputes.
Bad manner will not be tolerated. We make this competition on our free time so please, don't waste it. To make it simple, you bad manner, you're banned. Same comment for stream cheating.
You agree to be patient and considerate should for the duration of the event should any unforeseen difficulties arise, and acknowledge that the supervising administrator designated to your bracket has full authority over decisions pertaining to the game and may enforce the rules at his or her discrepancy.
Tournament administrators are free to join any game that they see fit. You are not to refuse entry to a caster or commentator and failure to do so may result in disqualification.
You agree that by entering this tournament that you will not publicly slader or reproach any of the staff or sponsors associated with this tournament on any public medium.
There are to be no spectators of any kind except the aforementioned administrators and the casters.
You may not include players based outside of Southeast Asia or Oceania in your team unless an admin grants special consideration.
You must own your own legal copies of StarCraft II for the SEA server.
The team managers must own a legal account of Paypal if they wish to receive their cash prizes.
If a player disconnects before 2.00 game time, the game MUST be replayed.
If a player disconnects between 2.00 and 9.59 game time, the game can be replayed if the other player agrees.
If a player disconnects after 10.00 game time, the game will NOT be replayed and will be counted as a loss. Blame your internet connection, not the admins.
A walkover will result by a 3-0, in favor of the victim team. The team in fault will be considered as losing a 5-0 game.
All the games have to be played, even if a team already lost the three first games, the two remaining games will have to be played. If a team refuse to play the remaining games, they will be counted as a individual losses.
Maps will be sourced from the Battle.net ladder and competitive maps (ESL, MLG, GSL, etc.) and be indicated before every the start of the competition.
Teams failing to contact their opponent's manager or agree on a designated play time will be designated a time by an admin. Failure to show at this time will result in a forfeit.
So far the head admins are TCPfrogmite.365 but more may be announced.
So far streaming of games is based on volunteers and not every round or match is guaranteed a stream. There will be an official stream for each division. The caster will be free to get a co-caster or not. He will have priority towards other streamers.
The prize is a clan logo thanks to TCPmagik. Once the finalists are determined from league play it is the clan leader's responsibility to discuss creative decisions with myself or magik regarding their possible clan logo. Magik is very talented and is doing it for free, as a service for SEA community. Always keep that in mind when you discuss with him about your logo.
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Streamer/casters / Admins wanted:
Admins: If you ever felt like contributing, there is no better time to step in and help then now. We will need quality help from experienced organisers and streamers. Send Frogmite / nirvAnA a PM expressing how you would like to help and your past experience.
Stream: There will be one official stream per division. We will only give this opportunity to regular casters as the whole season will take 7 weeks. The priority for Tier 1 will be given to Benji, as he presently contributes most to the streaming scene for our SEA region. You can PM me if you are interested to cast a division, which will be rotated if necessary among the casters should the workload be too demanding.
The SEA Clan Cup will be a single elimination tournament, with the registration being automatic for all the teams participating in the SEACL. The teams participating in the leagues will be seeded in the brackets based on the tier they are in. The format will follow a GSTL All-Kill format. The brackets will be done once we finalized the registration of SEACL.
Teams: open for all teams registered for SEACL. Admins: Crazerk? Casters: to be defined Prizes: $200+ Format: GSTL All-Kill Bo7. Semis/Finals Bo9 Single elimination tournament. Schedule: Week 1: No games Week 2: Ro 32 Week 3: Ro 16 Week 4: Ro 8 Week 5: Ro 4 Week 6: Break Week 7: Finals
Registration:
If you want to register a team for SEACL#2 you can reply to this thread by giving your team details. Please submit your full lineup. Players can be added later if the admins allow, but for now you are require to enter your full lineup in this format. See example below:
Team A
Manager ID/Code: Manager Skype: (This is essential)
Roster:
iGm Player1 iZerg
iMasters Player2 iZerg
iMasters Player3 iProtoss
iMasters Player4 iProtoss
iDiamond Player5 iTerran
The SEA Premier League (Tier 1) teams that will be invited are xGking +nGen, TArcMSI , SQLT, inFi, aLt, Mski, SPR & herocraft. Please submit your lineup below to confirm participation.
The team you registered will be placed between Tier 2 and Tier 4. We will make the placement for this season only, according to the level of your roster relative to the rest of the teams. To clarify, if your team is part of the strongest, you will play in the SEACL (Tier 2), if your team is part of the weakest, you will play for SEAL2 (Tier 4). Any dishonesty in your submission will affect your application chances. Be honest and submit a lineup that truly represents your clan please.
A player can only be registered in only one team. There is a limitation of 4 teams per clans. If you are submitting multiple teams make sure you group similar teams accordingly, all GMs to make one team, all Golds to make one team etc. No mixing of GMs/Golds if submitting multiple teams.
To keep things manageable, there are only 8 teams allowed per division. Should there be excess of applications, teams will be considered based on their activity, leadership ability and past performance / participation in our leagues. House clans will be given priority because in order to be a house clan in the first place, you have to meet those criteria. We basically want the league to run as smoothly as possible and like leaders to be "on the ball" and active - so submit your lineups now!
How do i know in which tier my team will be playing? The teams will be placed according to their strength compared to the other teams. Teams will be placed from SEACL to SEAL2 by the strongest to the weakest. We will apply a system of points to fairly determine the strength of the teams.
What happen if a team is not in the good tier? If a team is not in the good tier, they will either promote or demote at the end of the season. They will play in a more balanced division the next season.
Registration is free? Yes registering a maximum of 4 teams per clan is 100% free!
Why is it so complicated? SEACL is a system that we will try to support on many "seasons". The system of promotion/demotion being here to allow teams to compete in a balanced division, and be an incentive, or a goal to reach for teams at the end of the season.
Why there is no more BSG/PD stuff? There will still be a kind of BSG/PD divisions. Roughly the tier 3 can be compared to PD level+ and Tier 4 with BSG level+. We had a lot of issues with smurfing on BSG/PD CL, setting a subjective limit of skills is very hard to assume, either for admins and players. By removing this restrictions, we hope that players will always try to aim higher.
Who will be the admins? There will be dedicated admins for each divisions(minimum of two). They will be responsible for running the division and solve all the problems occurring with teams/results... If you have any problem, PM them on sc2sea.com, it's their job to solve the issues.
I am not sure my team can commit, shall i register? If you have doubts about the commitment of your players, i prefer you don't register your team or contact the admins. It's a pain in the ass to manage walkovers, especially if your team took the seat of another team.
Can i help to sponsor/admin the event? Yes! PM nirvAnA if you wish to sponsor the event (cash). Even 20$ will help. For admins, we will give priority to community members that have already ran competitions.
We know you have been waiting a long time for a clan/team competition like this. There was some difficulty coming up with the format but now thats been resolved we hope you will all be excited about this league and enjoy playing in it. You can sign up now by posting here, clans from EVERY division are welcome and if you don't have a team / clan its time to join one! You can also sign up in our main thread but we prefer if you sign up here if you're from TL so this thread stays bumped and other SEA players who just visit TL know about this league.
Yeap you just need 5 players minimum and its possible to add new additions before the sign up period closes. After that you would need to ask your respective admins if its alright.
Looks like good fun, love the addition of the lower tiers. Always admire those willing to go through the organisational nightmare that is a league just to provide those lower league players a shot in the spotlight!
On December 26 2011 00:18 iaguz wrote: Out of curiosity, why is it that you of all people care about an SEA tournament Shuffle?!
Because when you're in korea you have your spirit broken every night by players a million times better than you and it crushes your soul. It sounds like fun and a nice way to perhaps build some confidence back, also I have a far better connection from this hemisphere!
On December 26 2011 00:18 iaguz wrote: Out of curiosity, why is it that you of all people care about an SEA tournament Shuffle?!
Because when you're in korea you have your spirit broken every night by players a million times better than you and it crushes your soul. It sounds like fun and a nice way to perhaps build some confidence back, also I have a far better connection from this hemisphere!
I hear that, when I was over there, my connection to SEA was better than it is now :|
So, if I understand this correctly.. this is a clan league with 4 divisions, with the "first" division being the one with a prize pool. However, the first division is only 8 invited teams from SEA, and the following divisions are open to all teams?
There's a promotion/demotion so... a non-SEA team who participates can only get up into the 2nd division, and then possibly get promoted to the first division (the one with prize) the following season?
Then there's a SEPARATE event (Sea Cup thing with $200 prize) that's all-kill format, and open to anyone?
Did I understand what you're trying to do correctly? Sorry for the dumb questions just want to make sure I get it!
haha sorry to disappoint you Xeris, its basically "SEA only" for all divisions, as well as the SEA cup. Updated OP to make it more clear! Its just a small community funded event for the so our server gets more active. love all you have done for NASL btw
Update: Here are the 15 teams have signed up so far, looks like most of the top tier spots are taken and they are looking really stacked atm. We are looking at a minimum total of 32 teams and hope more BSG/PD clans sign up. Registration is open for a week since its Xmas and people are busy!
Sharn Kemp SEA Premier League aLt SPR Mineski Pro-Gaming Team Herocraft (glade, tgun, shuffle + others)
Signed up clans, tier undetermined for now
ToT "All In" Dream Team Gaming
nRv "Girlfriend name is left hand" iRL Clan vK WNG "mOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" WNG "Ninja Donkey Summer Paradise" ToT "All SB" Team cube nRv "Right Hand"
@deth When i was involved with leagues in Wc3 we had Jokers/subcards etc. So you send in your playing roster on the maps beforehand and if at the time people are unable to attend each team would get (Example) 3 jokers and 3 subs per season to use as they see fit.
On December 26 2011 20:31 iaguz wrote: Didn't think you were gonna play Deth. Thought you werent' allowed or something.
First ive heard of it lol
I think the best solution would be to w/o a no-show player or allow the ace to be one of the last 4 players.. if 3 players show up for a team (think XG) maybe they can play a max 3 of the bo3's + the ace match? but still get a chance to win?
On December 26 2011 21:17 iAmBiGbiRd wrote: ^Seems pretty harsh to give a 5-0 W/O for a team if one player cant make it....
I believe frogmite meant if the whole team didnt show up. it happened a few times in the BSGCL. If its single matches then players who didnt show up will just be walk overed 2-0 for their respective set (not the whole team)
Hmmmm i still like the idea of jokers/subcards a lot more, you only get a certain number of them per season and because it helps in certain situations (Someone has computer problems, net playing up, called to work so cant play or w/e) they have some chances to use another player, but because you only get a limited number it makes people use them strategically and also stops any kind of exploitation of the system. I was manager for the best Aussie Wc3 team at that time (GlaDe quit Wc3 like 2 weeks after i took over :'(, we still rocked though!!!) and played in probably 10-12 different team leagues over a 12ish month period and all used this or a similar system and there almost never any problems so i think you should seriously consider doing something similar
Just my 2 cents
Oh and if a whole team doesn't rock up then it's an obvious W/O win
We don't have a name/tag yet but we're all from Tasmania so that will do for now.
Manager: MJtron.389 Mgr Skype: will PM
MJtron/Diamond/Protoss (actually in plat atm due to uni prac, but diam last 2 seasons) lunou/Diamond/Zerg DrSayus/Diamond/Terran Namida/Platinum/Protoss Smegenstein/Platinum/Zerg DeMackas/Gold/Terran
most of us ladder on NA however due to better latency
Just got the bare bones list for now, should be able to fill it out to 8 or more players in the next week or so. Not many masters players around here though so PD it is.
All matches should be played regardless. If your team won already and doesn't want to you can forfeit the remaining games but that means the other team picks up those maps.
Just a quick question with regards to streaming, are players allowed to stream games? Or is it against the rules and only the official stream with casters is allowed?
Sorry if its a stupid question, just wanna know =)
Team/clan name Manager Skype details aLt aLtcure.412 kazuroni Team SPR XenomorphSPR-SunginSPR ??? Mineski Pro-Gaming MskiZenDeX.511 zendex25 Terror Australis TAriiChard-TAScarecrow riicharse-Sotanath Team inFinity inFi.Roz freddy.chi Team Herocraft mOOnGLaDe.659 ??? MITH MiTHjump.493 t0uchsky xGKing xGKingBenji tehbenji Team EVE EveJaFF.415-EveRekanise.618 jonathan.ang02 ToT "All In" AlwaysDry.265 tehonlyalopex(Alopex)
SC2SEA Championship League A: - Division 2A
Team/clan name Manager Skype details nRv -Gf name is left hand PickleWeasel.945 trent.mc.davies iRL- Team I Love Binu iRLProAnnn.406 Wang Poh Ann Clan vK teexxx.647 ndduy1988 WNG-mOOOOOOOOO WhiteStorm.406 jackwong0099 clan onslaught onsCalcifer/542 calcifer17 TA-The Pelican Fetishists TALoSt bayyyney Team tDp and friends EveJaFF.415-EveRekanise.618 jonathan.ang02 crux-Stallions men of war cruxStallion thomas.sturman1 STARSOC syntox.220 oliver.luke.engelmann Team exo eXoBLaZeR.539 exo.blazer
Grab a drink and some popcorn and get ready to stay awhile because this is going to be long. So long in fact, that I think I should start with the tl;dr
tl;dr I downvote an admins (nirvana) post in a non-anonymous reddit-like karma system multiple times and get banned from this league, while actual hackers only get 6 month ban with an option to have the ban duration reduced to 3 months. All the while two other admins on the site openly disagree with the decision to ban me from the league, and me and my clan are ultimately the losers, despite TA winning the original SEA CL (and myself winning the last 3 games in WL format)
So if I have your interest, please continue on. I would like to state for the record before I get going that my only goal in this is to be able to play in this league. I loved the experience of the last one, and quite frankly, my exclusion is bullshit.
So here goes.
I am one of the top players on the SEA server (not the best, but certainly competitive with everyone). My team (TA) was the winner of the original SEA CL, and I won 3/4 matches in the finals against aLt in order to carry TA over the line. All i want to do is to continue to play in this league, for my team.
I have had vehement disagreements with the admin of the site, nirvana, in the past for his conduct and censorship of discussion that never would have been censored on this site. TL has a reputation of strict but fair moderation, and not deleting offending posts which result in bans. They leave the posts up for everyone to see what people get banned for. You can have a solid debate with people here and as long as you dont cross the line into vulgarity or personal attacks at people, its fine. Thats why TL is great. SC2SEA however, is managed much differently. Offending posts get deleted instantly, people banned, and the admin of the site makes up stories and twists situations so he can look strong and in the right against any opposition. Nirvana especially is notorious for not being able to handle any criticism.
15/07/2011 6:38:31 PM Bryan i dont ban "people" 15/07/2011 6:38:36 PM Bryan i dont censor "free speech" 15/07/2011 6:38:46 PM Bryan its only for an extremely small group Not banning "people", huh?
My original account on the site, TAdeth, was banned for disagreeing with Nirvana in the chatbox on the site, essentially akin to an irc chatroom.
One of my clan members, TAdel (he makes the FXO threads and does a LOT of admin work for the international sc2 community, as well as admining a lot of SEA tournaments) was banned for downvoting nirvana with some perfectly legitimate criticism.
Sc2SEA has a karma system, essentially like reddit, except people who have lots of “upvotes” become more "powerful" and their upvotes give people 6-8 points each instead of +1 or +2 (so it becomes a massive circlejerk between certain individuals). Nirvana has a history of deleting any downvotes against him and banning these offending individuals, and I was getting sick of it.
I like my forums with some free speech, and I don't see the point of having a positive/negative reputation system if you cant use it both ways. It should also be noted that there aren't a set of explicit rules about downvoting people or conduct within the system, nirvana simply makes it up as he goes.
(Note that the original ban was a 3 day ban from the site, given out by a different admin, although nirvana supported the decision.)
What occurred was that someone asked if and why del had been banned in the chatbox. I replied,
"yea nirvana cant handle people using the rep system to express themselves"
Bam. 3 Day ban. Not the end of the world but it was certainly frustrating because the admin in question told me to "shut the fuck up", which I felt was far more out of line than my quote.
Next up is frustrating because Nirvana went through and deleted all my posts, others posts and pruned everything to make it all tidy. The thread in question is here:
I didn't appreciate the tone of nirvana's post saying "also appears to be the first time im agreeing with deth on something", so I gave him a downvote. He downvoted me in response (oh god this whole thing sounds so corny like a high-school drama), saying "Whats uncessary was your reputation comment on me", which he later edited (after all the drama) to read "Whats uncessary was your reputation comment on me I just meant to say we were now starting to see eye to eye on stuff". I blew up at his original downvote, and wrote a heated response which has since been deleted. I never made any personal attacks, I was just seriously critical of his actions and his quote towards me (which I find highly unprofessional and un-admin-like). I was permanently banned from the site for this, even though no vulgarity was thrown around.
I found myself in an awkward position, considering the site does have the monopoly of tournaments. I wanted to play in tournaments, so I used my clan's joke account, TAPelican, to register for events. This was fine, nirvana knew it was me, and even said that I was allowed to make multiple accounts and that he wouldn't prevent me from playing in tournaments.
“10/11/2011 6:00:06 PM Bryan what ill suggest is to make a alt where you behave like a normal person. im not gonna actively look out for you and i wont ban you from sc2sea tournies and if its shown your attitude has changed i will unban your accounts"
FaDeBadger: Love it Bjornbrandr: freaky_beeky: Nemo: Nirvana so BM ! lol
Pretty extreme to permanently ban an account for downvoting a terrible joke right?
But yeah, whatever, I talked to him on MSN and cleared things up.
10/11/2011 6:10:19 PM Ki . ill make a new acc 10/11/2011 6:10:23 PM Ki . and dw 10/11/2011 6:10:30 PM Ki . no rep "abuse" or comments against you 10/11/2011 6:10:35 PM Ki . i declare a official truce 10/11/2011 6:10:40 PM Bryan k cool
And things were sweet. I have mellowed out personally anyway. But then I was permanently banned from both sc2sea and the SEACL#2 for downvoting a post made by him which was particularly insulting, found here: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=54254&postcount=123
Originally Posted by TAChampi you just earnt back some of the respect i lost for you from all the other stupid things youve tried to pitch, keep it up...
oh wow thats good to know i have your stamp of approval. because im a salesman pitching stupid ideas to people 24/7 for my own personal gain and i finally "sold" one of my ideas.
jesus some people and their sense of self-entitilement is amazing. i dont owe you shit, neither do the moderators or admins of any of our tournaments who do this out of their own time. too many times i've seen people go retardedly ape shit when things dont go according to what they want (for instance the flak erasmus copped for PDCL) and they are quick to forget all the other stuff the admins have done or instead of lending a helping hand or suggesting something constructive act like a spoilt little bitch and make snide remarks instead of spending the time to type out proper suggestions.
We do this voluntary and are looking for the best solution because we want to make the best tournament for the community. We could have just made a bunch of final rules decided by ourselves it would be far easier and save all this trouble and everyone would still play in it anyway. Instead we went out of our way to do this to gather feedback - we are not your servants scurrying around "pitching" shit hoping one meets your liking and we dont owe you anything. i'm frankly very tired of people taking us for granted and the sense of entitlement some people have that lead them to make comments like the above is sickening.
I found his sarcastic tone insulting, as well as his implication that he doesn't owe anyone in the community "shit". SC2SEA has member donations, a store selling KR keys, t-shirts and their own strategy guide "The GrandMaster Manual". As such, and as far as they go to push these initiatives on the site (which is fine by me, I have no problem with them wanting to be self sufficient), I believe they do then owe the community something in return. Nirvana has made this argument many times in the past, that he "doesn't owe us shit", even though TA, myself, and many other players in the community are the reason why there is a community in the first place. If it wasn't for the players, high-level tournies and drama going on, there would be noone visiting the site and they wouldn't sell anything.
Additionally, a very reliable source informed me in october that nirvana had quit his job and is trying to make a living off of the site and pursue his dreams of pro-gaming (he qualified for and went to WCG Korea this year representing singapore).
I downvoted his post, (quite legitimately imo, not abusing the system in any way) saying (verbatim)
"considering you make a living off the site, you do owe the community shit"
I wish I had a screencap of this comment now, because nirvana has deleted it and is claiming I said something completely different. Highly convenient. Just another reason why moderation should be done, well, in moderation.
I still believe he owes the community shit. He owes them considerable respect and to listen to their criticisms, and conduct himself in a professional manner. I was permanently banned for this, and banned from the SEA CL#2.
I think it is worth noting that nirvana himself says
“bryan choo says $305 to run site every month”
and claims to not make any profit, and that he is simply losing money. This $305 includes all sc2sea-run tourneys (community opens, masters cup) and website hosting. Personally I am sceptical of this figure because it still seems high, but whatever. A quick look at this month's donations alone (7 days in), looks like this:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that looks like $370. Thats before the site's store, before the grandmaster manual (which is subscription based at $19.90 AUD/mo), and before korean sc2 keys (which they probably resell at at least a $15 profit at $60 aud, considering many other sites offer keys for ~$44 aud).
Nirvana's claims of losing money on the site and not owing us “shit” are made even more ridiculous when you consider these following gems of quotes:
[6:48:03 PM] Rossi: do you have records of the comment? (a/n: reputation comment i was banned from this league for) [6:48:34 PM] bryan choo -: nope but it was definetly not "considering you make a living from the site you do owe the community shit" [6:49:07 PM] bryan choo -: and i have lost alot more money if u were to tally up the hours of working on sc2sea [6:49:15 PM] bryan choo -: probably im down 100k [6:49:44 PM] bryan choo -: i dont owe any shit to anyone, certiantly not deth [6:49:48 PM] bryan choo -: i dont have to make a thread [6:49:50 PM] bryan choo -: for rules [6:49:57 PM] bryan choo -: i can just decide the rules myself and everyone will still play by this logic, I should be down at least $2 million for training to play sc2?
So yeah, just like that I was banned from the league and from the site. My bans consist of a chatbox quote, no vulgarity or personal attacks, 1 actual heated argument on the site which has been pruned so noone can see it for themselves, and 2 karma downvotes, which I think are all pathetic excuses for bans.
All I wanted is to play for my team in a team league, not be unbanned from the site. So I made the following thread, as an apology for conflict and to seek a resolution and move forward. This thread can be found here: http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?p=57875
Hi all, most of you know me as deth from TA. With the SEA CL#2 coming up and in light of recent events and drama in the community, I need to get some things off my chest.
First of all, and this will be confirmed by everyone who knows me, all my clanmates from TA and basically everyone from lans, I am honest to the point of ridiculousness. It gets me in trouble sometimes, but I make no apologies for this. If I don't like someone, I don't pretend to like them and then talk shit behind their back, I tell them I have a problem with them to their face. Sometimes this leads to a resolution of conflict, other times it results in unresolved tension and ongoing bitterness.
I am also overly critical, a trait I openly admit to, which I feel is part of what makes me so successful in my studies and pursuits of Journalism at University. It is also the trait that has made me the player I am today, I cannot cope with mistakes or losing, and my critical nature allows me to examine, dissect and correct mistakes as I see fit.
If I am sorry for something I will apologise. If I am not sorry, I won't apologise. I won't compromise my integrity or be dishonest in order to decieve people into thinking an apology is sincere when I believe and vehemently feel the opposite. That's why I sincerely hope everyone can take this thread and the following comments as open, honest truth, and process my thoughts with an open mind.
The critical and honest aspects of my personality have led me to be banned from this site and from the upcoming SEA CL #2. In the past I have gotten in trouble from admins of this site for disagreeing with their actions, openly criticising their behaviour and arguing relentlessly.
If I have made personal attacks on anyone in this community, not just admins, I apologise. I get heated in the thick of the moment and spout my mouth off in ways I sometimes regret. On the whole, I believe the admins, nirvana inclusive, do a great job of making sure we have ongoing events in the community and provide a localised portal for discussion and activity, without which the scene would certainly not be what it is today. And for the others in the community which make everything happen, you are all awesome for the work you do. Even benji, as much as we have had disagreements in the past, one cannot deny the impressive amount of work he puts into the scene in terms of casting and creating content.
As TA were champions of the original SEACL, I believe I owe it to them to try and make amends. I believe as a community we owe it to the players and the fans to provide the most entertaining environment and quality matches as possible. I believe I have shown highly entertaining games in the past, especially my tvp's against light, tvz's against mafia, pig and glade, and specific tvt series against yyj, RA, rossi, iaguz and many others. I don't feel as though my actions on this site or in the community should result in being excluded from this community wide league. I do not mind taking an exclusion from posting/reputation rights on this site as consequence for my actions, but I feel as though there should be some seperation of punishment between the game itself and community conduct.
I haven't hacked. I haven't cheated. I haven't always been manner but in tournaments and even ladder now, I always gl,hf and gg, no matter what. I give advice to those who want it and ask for it online, even if I have never heard of them or spoken to them before. My conduct in the game I feel is solid. All I want is to be able to play with my team. If I am excluded from this league I feel as though it isn't validated. SEA CL was ran without exclusions, and TA rose to the top and were victorious. Now we have two of our top lineup excluded from the league (myself and pinder), and any results stemming from this league aren't going to be valid.. I think for the players as well, if I was in their shoes I would want everyone to be playing, so a victory felt earned, rather than hollow.
I hope we can come to some sort of agreement here. I believe there should be a seperation between forum privelages and tournaments. Ban people from leagues for hacking and cheating, not disagreeing with staff on completely unrelated matters or using the reputation system.
Again, I wish to iterate that I do believe that the admins of this site do our community a great service, most of the time. I am just blunt, honest and critical of pretty much every mistake; this cannot be easy to deal with and I apologise if you are offended by my actions or personality. I mean nothing personally. I just want esports in sea to take off, have solid events, and more than anything have people watch and support entertaining leagues and watch exciting games.
Within the space of an hour, 2 posts, one by Rossi (another seriously top terran from SEA, and my clanmate) and dox (founder of the dox cup, and made sure AUS WCG didnt suck and basically travels to every event in australia making sure it all runs smoothly of his own volition, on his own dime) were deleted, and the thread closed from further discussion. Nirvana saying: “It was him alone who disappointed and let down his team by doing something out of anger that would put their teams chances at risk”, even though in another breath he says “ i can just decide the rules myself and everyone will still play”.
And apparently he has unbanned me 7 times from the site and that I have apologised for my actions and promised to never say bad things about him ever ever again. http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=57882&postcount=5
To me to his whole post isn't even an apology it just feels like hes justifying his actions on how he was "right" to be honest and how he should not have been banned.
It was him alone who disappointed and let down his team by doing something out of anger that would put their teams chances at risk
i.e making a personal attack he has made several times before that he knew would surely result in a ban. At least accept the responsibility of your actions and do not try to push it on the MODs or the rules of the tournament. There was never any intention to disadvantage your team in any way, you brought it upon yourself and let your team and friends down.
I had a talk with Rossi and riichard yesterday and ill put some of the stuff i've said here.
I cant unban him because it would be just another "slap on the wrist" it has to be significant to have any meaning. Guess how many times deth has already been banned, and how many times i decided to give him yet another chance and lift it? Guess how many accounts he has on this site? He ended up taking those bans all as "slaps on thew wrists", too lightly and meaingless for him to correct his attitude. People can see for themselves i have been EXTREMELY lenient on this site. hell even zan was given about 8-9 chances. But i absoutely hate people who abuse mods because it sets a bad example and harms the whole site. When people don't respect mods it opens the doors to trolling, immaturity, and fills the forms up with negativity and people end up losing respect for the site. Why do you think i removed all the memes personally attacking benji? Sure you found it funny but did he? We are nowhere near the strictness of TL for instance, ban discussion is not even entertained there.
Next, its not like a year ban, its just a 2 month ban, which is actually very lenient and perhaps i should be looking to revise that. Many admins would have banned him for life for that without a second thought, especially since it was a repeated offence - he was given MANY chances.
To clarify, ive already unbanned deth 7 times. Every single time he would talk to me on msn (See? I even used to entertain Zan for hours to discuss the bans explaining in detail hoping it would lead to some positive change, how foolish am I?) and the last 2 times deth promised he would not make such ridiculous accusations again and apologized. But the next time he got mad (it was the SEACL format he wasn't happy with) he just blew up again.
I recognize the end result weakened TA's line up and I went out of my way to seek out Glock (the higher up SQLT manager who overturned infeza's decision who was 100% adamant on merging SQLT with xGking) and explained to him the whole situation from the beginning and told him why it was wrong for sqlt+xgking to merge (1. Out of the 60 teams there isn't any other team like that 2. this is a clan/team competition to determine the best team/clan and merging takes away the purpose of the competition).
And that resulted in TA getting two key players yang /sensei back. I mean i simply could have not cared especially after being the recipient of many personal attacks from several of their members who have made things difficult right from the beginning of SC2SEA. But I put that aside and went out of my way so they would still have a strong chance to win as I hold no grudges against TA, there are just several members whom I dislike, the rest of the clan are fine.
I have also been telling benji to make a "B team" for the last 2 weeks, and that he could recruit upcoming players like bielsko which he eventually did, which hurt my own teams chances, but that would mean Benji / xGking, TA and everyone else was happy.
In conclusion the ban has to be meaningful and will stick, I have already been VERY lenient and made alot of concessions, even going out of my way and at my own expense. To protect the integrity of this site mod abuse is not one of the bans i can lift or matters i can lenient about. Harden up, take responsibility for your actions and letting your team down. Don't abuse the mods again and we will all look forward to seeing you play next season.
From this post he also says
“But the next time he got mad (it was the SEACL format he wasn't happy with) he just blew up again.”,
Completely unfounded and baseless accusations. I never made a single post on the SEACL format or even commented in the thread, I literally just made the one reputation comment and got banned.
Nirvana has a history of making things up, which he has to do in order to convince people that he is in the right in such ridiculous situations. Nirvana has possibly unbanned me once. Otherwise I have created 2 alternate accounts to participate in tournaments, and served out a 3 day ban on my original account. I never apologised, and I only said I wouldn't abuse the system (TA members were just pointing out how useless the system is by upvoting each other for literally everything).
There is no “sc2sea commandments or explicit rules thread which allows us to see what consequences there will be. If I had known I would get excluded from playing a computer game for giving someone a downvote, I never would have done it. I had no way of knowing the admin of sc2sea could take criticism so harshly or personally, and without warning or prior knowledge I was banned.
The whole thing seems really fucking petty, doesn't it? Jesus Christ. All I want is to be able to play for my team and have this SEA-wide event hold some legitimacy. I want to provide entertaining games for the viewers, and have fun with my team. The first SEA CL was some of the best fun I have had in sc2. It was well run, had a great format, and of course, my team won. But the admin of the site and this tournament is too stubborn to let me play a computer game with my team. At no point in recent history have I raged at him and insulted him personally (and the only time ever was calling him a "nazi" for his censorship of the site, which I regret). My only crime is being critical and honest, expressing an opinion contrary to his own.
I don't mind if I remain banned from posting on the site. I obviously can't adhere to the strict unwritten rules. All I want is to be allowed to play in their tournaments and play for my team in the SEA CL#2.
Additionally, 2 players in SEA were found to be hacking, and copped a 6 month ban from SC2sea and their tournaments, but allowed a concession whereby they could get back sooner (1-3 months sooner, with good behaviour). I am banned for 2 months and banned from this clan league. Are my crimes really as bad as a hacker?
I feel I should reiterate the intention of this post. I don't want to hurt the community or endanger this league. I do feel there needs to be a transparency to the admin'ing of sc2sea.com and this league. All I want to do is play for my clan in a SC2 league, a goal I don't feel is unjustified or unreasonable. I don't feel I have done anything to warrant being treated like a hacker or a cheater.
Holy shit that makes me value Tl's moderation even more, I don't even know what to say. I wondered why I didnt see you on the list of applied players -_-
First of all i apologise to TL, the TL mods and all the people who are going to have to read this drama. deth has made alot of false accusations in his post and im going to address each and everyone of them.
Background info
I run the community site SC2SEA which exclusively focuses on the SEA scene and growing it. We regularly host tournaments, have our own recaps, articles, interviews all done in a SEA style for the SEA community. We are a small site and it takes a massive amount of time to run, by people who volunteer their time, money and efforts to make things happen. Basically when i started it i hoped to create our own little version of TL as SEA tournaments always got buried here really quickly, as TL is massive in size and there are alot more prominent events like the GSL, MLGs, dreamhacks etc. All of us still love and visit TL regularly to get all the latest non-sea news.
First of all, deths TLDR version is extremely biased and he is lifting conversations completely out of context to portray me in a negative light.
To respond to his TLDR:
deth has not been merely downvoting, the "karma" system contains a comment field and he has been circumventing infractions by exploiting it by using it to make personal attacks and accusations against me and the moderators whenever he disagreed with a decision, be it the format of a tournament, or who the invited players should be instead of being constructive and offering valid suggestions or being civil about it. He has a long history of warnings and infractions by not just me, but the Mods SkyBreaker and BakaInu for the way he carries himself on the forums and his disrepect towards the admins. He has at least 4 forum accounts banned (tadeth, tapelicam, hted, nazivana) and has been banned or ended up having his ban lifted for an estimated 7 times, each time i have been extremely lenient with it and allowed him to make another account even when i knew it was him, so he could play in tournaments etc. The last time he specifically said he would not and under that condition i allowed him back on the site.
This time i felt a mere "site ban" was no longer enough and extended it to the SEACL tournament that me and my mod team spent countless hours building called the "SEA Clan League" which encompasses 50+ teams and spread over 5 leagues, so players of all skill divisions have a chance to play in it. We do not get paid for any of this and it is extremely time consuming, with there being lots of debate on the appropriate format, etc. The tournament lasts 2 months and I said that he could play NEXT season after serving the ban, making the ban really lenient.
Yes it is true that Dox who is one of our mods disagreed with the tourmanet ban and felt it should be just limited to a site ban. ill explain more later but the basic logic behind my decision was SITE BANS DO NO WORK on DETH, it has no effect because he has been banned 7 TIMES before and he doesn't care, he still can see the site he just cant post. its the SEAL that holds meaning to him and that is what would prevent him from disrespecting the mods again in the future. He took what i said to dox "sc2sea will look weak if we reverse the ban" totally out of context. What i meant was if u let him out of the ban it sets the precedence for future people who think they can just do and say whatever they want (being blunt and honest doesn't justify insulting people) and put out an apology and forgot about it. As i mentioned, i have given him ALOT of chances.
Lastly he tries to portray me as wanting to ban him from the tournament to ruin his teams chances which could not be further from the truth. As I will explain in detail later, i went out of my way to talk to the SQLT manager who had already made up his mind that his players(who belong to TA) wont play for them and instead represent xGking. I felt it was unfair to TA so i talked to him and explaied the situation and it ended up with the 2 star TA players going back to TA which would never have been possible without my intervention.
Timeline of events:
- I open up format discussion for a new SEAL league that our site will be running. - Theres some good discussion but theres some really harmful / rude discussion by some people. - This causes glade/tgun to pull out of the league, not wanting to be involved and not liking the direction the thread is heading. - I make several posts stating how to keep things civil so discussion can be promoted and how to be respectful to organizers and not to treat them like servants. (Post here: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=54254&postcount=123) - I persuade glade / tgun to return to the league and come up with a new compromised format based on some of the suggestions. - A few individuals like deth make personal attacks on the me and the mods. deth: "you owe it to us cause all do is profit from the community" pinder who got infracted (a warning not ban) by a mod told him to "shove it up his pee hole". - Both players were banned from playing in the tournament, which mind you the mods take the trouble of organising and running.(Post here: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=54404&postcount=140 This was 3 weeks ago on the 24th of december 2011.) - deth today made a half hearted apology asking to play in the tournament which i did not accept and then black mailed me into unbanning him or he would "post everything on tl". I told him to go ahead because people are smart enough to decide for themselves what is right.
I also told him to look at the big picture, for those who agree with him that would end up hurting the community, bring negative attention to sc2sea, sponsors to stay away and affecting the potential of any future tournaments and those who agree with us would make pple lose respect for deth and his clan TA and everything else will go on as usual. So in both cases he wouldn't get to play still. To that he responded:
deth: yeah so i have nothing to lose
Its the same mentality he had when he made that comment against me, he did not stop to think his actions would affect the chances of his team if he got banned.
About deths "profiting from the community" comments:
sc2sea costs $305 to run every month. $175 for hosting and the rest for money for our community tournaments. For the first year the site was run with expenses coming out of my own pocket and time. Yes i do owe paying customers (The Strategy guide i wrote with glade) and people who buy TW keys a service, which i do perform extremely well as evidenced by the testimonials on the site which everyone can see and i have explained this to deth. I introduced the shop because people ASKED FOR A SHOP and also so sc2sea could become sustainable in the future by absorbing all the running costs instead of having to depend on uncertain donations from the community. Apart from these extra premium features everything else on the is free, and run on our own expense and time. The site alone by itself loses money every month without the shop. deth you have no idea how much the keys cost. Yes we make a small profit but our method is completely different from those of chinese sites. We do not go through the tedious third party "mypoints system" like them. Instead, the codes are applied on a single page and people get their license in under 5 seconds. Also, if you notice these chinese shops resell 2nd hand keys on their website which clearly violates the TOS of other games and I am unfamiliar with their process with tw keys. So again you are making wild baseless accusations without knowing whats going on.
What i refer to about the amount of money lost is in terms of opportunity cost. I still work part time but I easily put 4-5 hours a day into sc2sea on average, every day for the last 1 and a half years. My previous job earned me about $80 an hour. $80 x 550 days = 4hours x550days x 80 = $176,000. I have an honours degree in finance but the site was taking up so much of my time I had to move to a less time consuming job. Spread over two years that annual income is not alot, its below average of what someone of my education qualifications can earn. I was giving him an example of the potential money I could have earned as his accusastion was all about me exploiting the community for money. Yes I love what I'm doing atm thats why I continue to do it and you cannot put a price on that. But he is again taking everything out of context to portray me in the worse possible way.
So yes, it hurts when he makes such remarks which are totally baseless and out of line, and i have even banned him then let him make a new accounts multiple times which i were well aware off (basically lifting the ban) after he promised not to say such stuff again.
About deths "unfair running of sc2sea" comments: + Show Spoiler +
I run the site NOTHING like deth has portrayed. I am generally extremely lenient, to a fault that i even entertain ban discussions on MSN and i lift bans MULTIPLE times to give people another chance. I even gave whats accepted as SEA's biggest troll "AZKziek" about 8 chances before permanently banning him. 999/1000 times nothing gets removed and people just get infracted (warned) and the rest can decide for themselves why he was banned and theres transparency.
There are a few times I have deleted/removed comments were when people were sexually harassing kelly, making racist remarks, or making ridiculous accusations on no basis which would lead to very heated agruments and derail threads, hence i remove them. From what I see TL does delete posts sometimes with their -Nuked- edits when things go way out of line. Like TL, we do this at a very rare rate.
There was also a time where deth and his friends thought it would be funny to make a train of memes insulting SEA most hardworking commentator, "Benji" which I had to delete. And i DID NOT EVEN BAN them after they did that. I private messaged them to stop it and gave them a warning. Apart from deth and his friends, the comments i deleted can be counted on one hand. The way he is portraying the running of the site could not be further from the truth.
As for dels ban, he was angry and he made a personal attack on me and my wife. the comments was NOT deleted. I made it into a thread and everyone can see it here http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?p=31841. Everyone agree it was out of line, the ban was justified, and he served a 2 month ban and after that i still let him back on the site, regardless of those hurtful words he said against me and my wife. Why did he even bring it up? He was just trying to portray me negatively.
About his rep story. He downrepped me, so yea i down repped him back, it was childish yes, but i wanted him to feel what i felt especially since talking to him nicely was not working. I did not ban him, nor did i infract him for that rep comment. He certainly did feel what i felt but apparently i am supposed to be professioanl and not be able to down rep him back. DO u see the double standards there? He then went on a personal attack in the chatbox and again about how i was exploiting the community and THAT was what he was banned for, and he knew it. EVERYONE in the chat was agreeing how deth over reacted and how his personal attack was uncalled for.
Why make it a tournament ban instead of just a site ban? + Show Spoiler +
1. The ban has to have significance or it will not be taken seriously. A site ban is close to meaningless especially in deth's case because when you're banned you can still see everything on the site. He isnt a very active forum poster so even if he is site banned it doesnt make much difference as he doesn't post much in the first place. This is also evidenced by the fact he was banned and unbanned 7 times before and have been taking these bans lightly like "slaps on the wrist". All his bans have been progressive, with first warnings, then infractions, then site bans, then this.
Would a ban on him playing in SEAL hold significance? Yes, definitely. It will be something he will take seriously and remember and hes is very likely to not make such accusatory remarks on me or the mods in the future. At the same time it is reasonable because we are not life banning him like ALOT of communities would. In just two months he will be allowed to play in next season's SEAL. Should he behave the same way as before, the ban will probably be increased to 2 or more seasons.
2. I can't let him play because ill be letting some one who spat in our faces play in a tournament we are taking a huge amount of time and effort to run. It feels wrong in every way and I have to set a precedence on how mods and admins should be treated. I have to protect myself and my mod team who spend countless hours of their own time running the tournaments that we play in, it is a thankless job, we don't ask you to express appreciation but directly attacking us is unacceptable. How many tournaments has baka alone organized and how many did Pinder himself play in when he made that remark to Baka? How can we continue to let these players play after saying that. Insulting / personal attacks will not be tolerated.
3. This will be the precedent now set. It doesn't matter how good at starcraft you are or what clan you are from. Insulting / personal attacks directly on moderators / admins will not be taken lightly and will result in bans from any tournaments organized by sc2sea.
deth made an "apology" post on sc2sea. I did not delete it so people could see it, but i closed it as i rather had the conversation be on skype between me and Rossi in private instead of dragging out over 20 pages over 5 days. Which isnt good for sponsors, or the image of the site. Me and rossi talked on skype for the next 4 hours. Because I closed it and denied his last chance of getting his ban lifted he threatened to post this on TL. Keep in mind the bans were already made 2-3 weeks ago.
To me to his whole post isn't even an apology it just feels like hes justifying his actions on how he was "right" to be honest and how he should not have been banned. It was him alone who disappointed and let down his team by doing something out of anger that would put their teams chances at risk i.e making a personal attack he has made several times before that he knew would surely result in a ban. At least accept the responsibility of your actions and do not try to push it on the MODs or the rules of the tournament. There was never any intention to disadvantage your team in any way, you brought it upon yourself and let your team and friends down.
I had a talk with Rossi and riichard yesterday and ill put some of the stuff i've said here.I cant unban him because it would be just another "slap on the wrist" it has to be significant to have any meaning. Guess how many times deth has already been banned, and how many times i decided to give him yet another chance and lift it? Guess how many accounts he has on this site? He ended up taking those bans all as "slaps on thew wrists", too lightly and meaningless for him to correct his attitude. People can see for themselves i have been EXTREMELY lenient on this site. hell even zan was given about 8-9 chances. But i absolutely hate people who abuse mods because it sets a bad example and harms the whole site. When people don't respect mods it opens the doors to trolling, immaturity, and fills the forms up with negativity and people end up losing respect for the site. Why do you think i removed all the memes personally attacking benji? Sure you found it funny but did he? We are nowhere near the strictness of TL for instance, ban discussion is not even entertained here and for good reason.
Next, its not like a year ban, its just a 2 month ban, which is actually very lenient and perhaps i should be looking to revise that. Many admins would have banned him for life for that without a second thought, especially since it was a repeated offence - he was given MANY chances.
To clarify, ive already unbanned deth 7 times. Every single time he would talk to me on msn (See? I even used to entertain Zan for hours to discuss the bans explaining in detail hoping it would lead to some positive change, how foolish am I?) and the last 2 times deth promised he would not make such ridiculous accusations again and apologized. But the next time he got mad (it was the SEACL format he wasn't happy with) he just blew up again.
I recognize the end result weakened TA's line up and I went out of my way to seek out Glock (the higher up SQLT manager who overturned infeza's decision who was 100% adamant on merging SQLT with xGking) and explained to him the whole situation from the beginning and told him why it was wrong for sqlt+xgking to merge (1. Out of the 60 teams there isn't any other team like that 2. this is a clan/team competition to determine the best team/clan and merging takes away the purpose of the competition).
And that resulted in TA getting two key players yang /sensei back. I mean i simply could have not cared especially after being the recipient of many personal attacks from several of their members who have made things difficult right from the beginning of SC2SEA. But I put that aside and went out of my way so they would still have a strong chance to win as I hold no grudges against TA, there are just several members whom I dislike, the rest of the clan are fine.
I have also been telling benji to make a "B team" for the last 2 weeks, and that he could recruit upcoming players like bielsko which he eventually did, which hurt my own teams chances, but that would mean Benji / xGking, TA and everyone else was happy.
In conclusion the ban has to be meaningful and will stick, I have already been VERY lenient and made alot of concessions, even going out of my way and at my own expense. To protect the integrity of this site mod abuse is not one of the bans i can lift or matters i can lenient about. Harden up, take responsibility for your actions and letting your team down. Don't abuse the mods again and we will all look forward to seeing you play next season.
First of all, me and dox get along great we generally have the same vision of the site and community, i mean thats why I promoted him to Mod very shortly after he joined the site and he helps the scene a ton. We are very selectively and only have about 7 mods to 7,000 users. This is the first time we have reached this level of disagreement or one of the first times where we had any disagreement for that matter, and Dox is still a person i have great respect for and always will have.
"i cant reverse the decision sc2sea will look weak"
What i meant by this is once sites carry out bans they have to stick to it if not noone will take the adminstration seriously, we will be perceived as weak and it will open up the doors to problems and disrespect of the mods. Could a better decision have been made? I accept theres a possibility of that, and i agree with dox group thinking is better generally but i still believe it was a legitimate ban that would protect the integrity of the site, by protecting the mods.
The unban me or I will post about this on TL
Lastly, deth came to me threatened to post this on TL unless i let him play in the league. Basically blackmailing me to try get away with a legitimate ban. If he really wanted to "air this for transparency" he would have posted this the moment the ban was carried out 3 weeks ago. He would also never have attached a condition beneficial to him to it. When you threaten someone to "do something beneficial to me otherwise... and if you do it I won't..." its a clear cut case of blackmail.
I told him doing so will only harm the community because
1. The people who agree with deth's POV will cause sponsors not to want to touch SEAL or SEA or pple ending up with a very negative impression of sc2sea. And there probably wont be another season of SEAL.
2. The people who see our POV way will realize he has already been banned 7 times, is not learning his lesson and was clearly out of line attacking a mod and was already given a very lenient ban of just "2 months". But that would hurt the reputation of him and his clan TA, which is one of the biggest clans in SEA which would inadvertently hurt the community as well.
When I told him he was being very selfish no matter which scenario happens hes not going to play for his team, this is what he said:
deth: yeah so i have nothing to lose
Why would you try jeopardize a whole community and tournament just because you have nothing to lose?
And at the same time try to discredit all the hardwork we at sc2sea have put it over the last two years? Saying we run the forums like dictators, we mindlessly ban people, make rules just to unfairly penalize your team - All these are far fetched accusations which could not be further from the truth. If all this were true people would simply not use the site, and others would be complaining as well instead of it being the same 3-4 people every time. Instead its the complete opposite, the site is very popular and well loved by the vast majortiy of the community, as evidenced by the many appreciation threads we have.
i'd imagine the scene in SEA would have been very very different had it not being for sc2sea. We spend countless hours working on it and the vast majority of the people on the site love and appreciate all the hard work we put in. It was always you and that select group of friends you had who have been making things difficult from the start, abusing the rep system, making personal attacks or insulting memes on members, thinking the rules don't apply to you and trying to impose your views on our site and when we resist you always try to blow it up and go down the personal attack / baseless accusation route. You now selfishly put our whole community and all we have done at risk just because you are not man enough to accept your ban and take responsibility for what you have done to yourself and your team.
Apparently making information and dealings transparent is blackmail, so by that logic any journalism is blackmail.
Get over yourself, your logic regarding how much you've apparently "lost" in terms of earnings is pathetic. It is a conscious decision by you to quit your job and work with sc2sea.
Saying that you do owe the community shit is not a personal attack. You cannot even hope to back this up.
You say ive been banned 7 times, but fail to address the fact that each time it has been ridiculous.
Lets face it man, you just hate me and have a personal vendetta against me. Its honestly bordering on the ludicrous, and anyone who reads your post with an open, critical mind can see how pathetic you are behaving.
You take anything critical as a personal attack, that's your perogative. Its also pathetic coming from a community admin. Grow up dude.
Also I actually laughed out loud at you saying I have put the entire community at risk for what Ive done, which is just expose your conduct.
You have reinforced basically everything I said in my post with your counter argument, and shown in spectacular fashion that you know on some level that you're being unreasonable if you believe that me showing people whats really going on is going to send them away from sc2sea and this league.
Also, just out of curiosity, do you actually believe you would have a functioning site and would be making money at all off it if it wasnt for the high level players in your community? The ones who are playing in this league as well certainly deserve respect and "some shit?"
OH also, this is fucking epicly rich:
Lastly he tries to potray me as wanting to ban him from the tournament to ruin his teams chances which could not be further from the truth. As I will explain in detail later, i went out of my way to talk to the SQLT manager who had already made up his mind that his players(who belong to TA) wont play for them and instead represent xGking. I felt it was unfair to TA so i talked to him and explaied the situation and it ended up with the 2 star TA players going back to TA which would never have been possible without my intervention.
You did that for your own benefit. You talked to the sqlt manager just so you could get ninja + HuT to play for alt, and because you didnt think bielsko would join xgking. You are soooo dishonest its amazing.
deth: Apparently making information and dealings transparent is blackmail, so by that logic any journalism is blackmail.
Again you're twisting my words. I'm saying "let me play OR i will post this on TL" is blackmail, especially when you are well aware of the consequences it may have for the community. You also waited 3 weeks to make an issue about it instead of posting it right away, clearly you did this out of spite to get back at me because i refused to accept your apology, rather then on its own grounds as you would have made the post much earlier.
deth: Get over yourself, your logic regarding how much you've apparently "lost" in terms of earnings is pathetic. It is a conscious decision by you to quit your job and work with sc2sea.
You're saying i'm profiting from the community, im explaining im not if you consider the opportunity costs incured. If my intention was to make profit I would have continued what i was doing. I was defending this argument thats all.
deth: Saying that you do owe the community shit is not a personal attack. You cannot even hope to back this up.
You misread something. Im saying making the accusation "that i owe the community cause all i do is profit from them" is a personal attack, and also baselss and misguided. You are saying that i have not doing anything for the community and everything i did was profit orientated. The shop was only introduced 7 months after the site was up, partly to pay for the increased hosting costs.
deth: You say ive been banned 7 times, but fail to address the fact that each time it has been ridiculous.
You have 3 banned accounts. Thats already 3 bans. Skybreaker banned you on your TAdeth account, thats already 4 bans minimum and this is just from the top of my head. To add to that I am certain i have lifted one or two bans before from at least one of your accounts.
deth: Lets face it man, you just hate me and have a personal vendetta against me. Its honestly bordering on the ludicrous, and anyone who reads your post with an open, critical mind can see how pathetic you are behaving.
I am not the one with the personal vendetta, and i am always very neutral in my interactions even to the pple who have attacked me before. Look how i still talk civilly to del and how we get along even after he made such remarks about my wife? It is you who is the one making the personal attacks, look at the tone of our posts here for e.g and the difference between mine and yours and even now im still responding very civilly without remarks like "your logic is pathetic". When have i ever accused you of something baseless or made a personal attack against you?
deth: Also I actually laughed out loud at you saying I have put the entire community at risk for what Ive done, which is just expose your conduct.
Oh yea you laughed it must be one big joke to you. You probably don't care or think of the consequences this might have or take into consideration how much time and effort we spent to built up our community. To you, you really don't care since you're not playing, there's "nothing to lose"
deth: OH also, this is fucking epicly rich: You did that for your own benefit. You talked to the sqlt manager just so you could get ninja + HuT to play for alt, and because you didnt think bielsko would join xgking. You are soooo dishonest its amazing.
again, another extremely baseless comment. yes i didnt think bielsko would join, but i was well aware of the possibility he might and did not protest when it did. our two stars are PiG and Yoon, everyone knows that. the next line of players - jimdiddy han sheepy shortizz mrfool ninja and myself i consider to be at the same tier we have more than enough capable players 7 needing to fill those extra 3 slots. ninja is a good player but no disrespect to him, having ninja not play for us would not be a big loss BECAUSE we have a more than adequate lineup and everyone will get more chances to play.
So we ended up losing bielsko and getting ninja, an even trade which we did not benefit from whereas you got two very strong players for your team. it clearly benefited you, and i could very well have not bothered to talk to glock but i did. and you are now discrediting my actions and implying that the ban was to hurt your team which cannot be further from the truth.
Lastly, hut doesnt even consider himself ngen since he quit a long time ago, he was a free agent, inactive for the LAST 2 MONTHS and his name shouldn't even be brought up. I did not know this and i even URGED hut to play for xgking instead but he didnt want to.
[1/1/2012 8:20:43 AM] Nick Hutton: Yo, I dunno what the go is with SQL/xGKing is so I was wondering if I could play for aLt in cl? [1/1/2012 8:51:19 AM] bryan choo -: that would be awesome but benji is gonna KILL me if that happens lol [1/1/2012 8:51:40 AM] bryan choo -: SQL not merging anymore and xGking looks like they gonna take the old nGens [1/1/2012 8:51:47 AM] bryan choo -: you better have a talk with benji first!! <3 [1/1/2012 8:52:30 AM] Nick Hutton: Then invite me into aLt, problem solved? [1/1/2012 8:53:35 AM] Nick Hutton: Also, I get Internet on the 11th so if u want me to fill anything out for the coaching thing send it thru before then kk? [1/1/2012 8:54:10 AM] bryan choo -: hmm u have to talk to benji first!! cause he was close to withdrawing xGking yesterday, i feel if i take you, that would be the last straw for him
deth: Apparently making information and dealings transparent is blackmail, so by that logic any journalism is blackmail.
Nirv: No saying let me play OR i will post this on TL is blackmail. Especially when you are aware of the consequences it may have for the community. You also waited 3 weeks to make an issue about it instead of posting it right away, clearly did this out of spite because i refused to accept your apology.
At first I didnt even know I was banned, then I had christmas, spent time in the country and got back on tuesday. I worked all week and now had time to address the issue before the league started. Also not blackmail. Im not getting money out of it if im successful, im getting the opportunity to play a video game with my clan for fucks sake.
Get over yourself, your logic regarding how much you've apparently "lost" in terms of earnings is pathetic. It is a conscious decision by you to quit your job and work with sc2sea.
Nirv: You're saying i'm profiting from the community, im explaining im not if you consider the opportunity costs incured. If my intention was to make profit I would have continued what i was doing. I was defending my argument thats all.
Im not stopping you from going back and making your big dollars. I am going to call bullshit that you were earning anywhere close to that amount though, I have it on very good authority that you were, in fact, not a high roller making loads of benjamins.
Saying that you do owe the community shit is not a personal attack. You cannot even hope to back this up.
Nirv: Im saying making the accusation "that i owe the community cause all i do is profit from them" is a personal attack, and also baselss and misguided. You misread something.
Never said that in those words, stop lying pls. Still not a personal attack.
You say ive been banned 7 times, but fail to address the fact that each time it has been ridiculous.
Nirv: You have 3 banned accounts. Thats already 3 bans. Skybreaked banned you on your TAdeth account, thats already 4 bans minimum and this is just from the top of my head.
Still waiting for the number 7 dude, still waiting for you to address the fact that 2 of those bans were just downvotes
Lets face it man, you just hate me and have a personal vendetta against me. Its honestly bordering on the ludicrous, and anyone who reads your post with an open, critical mind can see how pathetic you are behaving.
Nirv: Its not me, i am always very netural in my interactions. It is you who makes the personal attacks each and every time. When have i accused you of something baseless or made a personal attack against you?
lol
Also I actually laughed out loud at you saying I have put the entire community at risk for what Ive done, which is just expose your conduct.
Nirv: Oh yea you laughed you probably don't care or think of the consquences this might have. To you really don't care since you're not playing, there's "nothing to lose"
Good point, I agree with myself. There isn't anything to lose for me here, I do however get to bring some transparency and highlight how ridiculous your behaviour is.
deth: OH also, this is fucking epicly rich: You did that for your own benefit. You talked to the sqlt manager just so you could get ninja + HuT to play for alt, and because you didnt think bielsko would join xgking. You are soooo dishonest its amazing.
Nirv: again, another extremely baseless comment. yes i didnt think bielsko would join, but i was well aware of the possibility he might did not protest when it did. our two stars are PiG and Yoon. the next line of players - jimdiddy han sheepy shortizz mrfool and myself i consider to be at the same tier we have more than enough capable players. ninja is a good player but no disrespect to him, having ninja not play for us would not be a big loss. So we ended up losing bielsko and getting ninja, an even trade which we did not benefit from it where you got two very strong players for your team. it clearly benefit you. Lastly, hut doesnt even consider himself ngen since he quit a long time ago, he was a free agent, inactive for the LAST 2 MONTHS and his name shoudlnt even be brought up. URGED hut to play for xgking instead but he didnt want to.
stop acting like u did this out of the goodness of your own heart, you know as well as i do that not everyone on your team will be available every week. its mainly ninja but yeah you just wanted to stop the sql/xg merge. you got something out of it and so did ta.
*******
But yea, the fact that this guy is admin of a community with such potential makes me sad. If he continues to act like this it will remain what it is: a backwater community site for a server noone cares about in the international scene. We have like, under 10 players who would be recognised on an external level, glade, tgun, azz, shuffle, iaguz, PiG are all i can think of right now, and that does truly sadden me.
Your opportunity cost valuation doesn't take into account the value of what you currently do beyond the actual dollars (there's an intangible value to doing something you enjoy, which is worth more than $$ or you wouldn't be doing but). What are you even trying to say here? Are you losing money? Sure, you'd be better off if you'd remained in your old job, but this is a decision that you chose to invest yourself in.
My major issue is that your motivations for banning deth have led you to take a much harder line than the bans imposed on people who were found to be hacking. Your problem with deth is a personal one; the problems the community has with hackers is much more systemic.
You argued that banning hackers from the site and all related tournaments for an entire year was too harsh; you originally favoured a 3 month ban, but after complaints from the community (myself included) that was later increased to 6 months. However, players of the community could reduce their duration of the ban to 3 months through acts of goodwill to the community, through services like free coaching.
I know deth would be happy to do something like this, but you haven't even extended this opportunity to him. In terms of acts against the community, deth's infractions are basically minor, yet you've determined that a reasonable punishment would be to remove him from the Clan League - not for any longer of that, mind you, just the two months that would prevent him from playing in the league.
I'd also question what your definition of a "half hearted apology" was; I think people on TL can recognise that this a fairly robust apology:
Hi all, most of you know me as deth from TA. With the SEA CL#2 coming up and in light of recent events and drama in the community, I need to get some things off my chest.
First of all, and this will be confirmed by everyone who knows me, all my clanmates from TA and basically everyone from lans, I am honest to the point of ridiculousness. It gets me in trouble sometimes, but I make no apologies for this. If I don't like someone, I don't pretend to like them and then talk shit behind their back, I tell them I have a problem with them to their face. Sometimes this leads to a resolution of conflict, other times it results in unresolved tension and ongoing bitterness.
I am also overly critical, a trait I openly admit to, which I feel is part of what makes me so successful in my studies and pursuits of Journalism at University. It is also the trait that has made me the player I am today, I cannot cope with mistakes or losing, and my critical nature allows me to examine, dissect and correct mistakes as I see fit.
If I am sorry for something I will apologise. If I am not sorry, I won't apologise. I won't compromise my integrity or be dishonest in order to decieve people into thinking an apology is sincere when I believe and vehemently feel the opposite. That's why I sincerely hope everyone can take this thread and the following comments as open, honest truth, and process my thoughts with an open mind.
The critical and honest aspects of my personality have led me to be banned from this site and from the upcoming SEA CL #2. In the past I have gotten in trouble from admins of this site for disagreeing with their actions, openly criticising their behaviour and arguing relentlessly.
If I have made personal attacks on anyone in this community, not just admins, I apologise. I get heated in the thick of the moment and spout my mouth off in ways I sometimes regret. On the whole, I believe the admins, nirvana inclusive, do a great job of making sure we have ongoing events in the community and provide a localised portal for discussion and activity, without which the scene would certainly not be what it is today. And for the others in the community which make everything happen, you are all awesome for the work you do. Even benji, as much as we have had disagreements in the past, one cannot deny the impressive amount of work he puts into the scene in terms of casting and creating content.
As TA were champions of the original SEACL, I believe I owe it to them to try and make amends. I believe as a community we owe it to the players and the fans to provide the most entertaining environment and quality matches as possible. I believe I have shown highly entertaining games in the past, especially my tvp's against light, tvz's against mafia, pig and glade, and specific tvt series against yyj, RA, rossi, iaguz and many others. I don't feel as though my actions on this site or in the community should result in being excluded from this community wide league. I do not mind taking an exclusion from posting/reputation rights on this site as consequence for my actions, but I feel as though there should be some seperation of punishment between the game itself and community conduct.
I haven't hacked. I haven't cheated. I haven't always been manner but in tournaments and even ladder now, I always gl,hf and gg, no matter what. I give advice to those who want it and ask for it online, even if I have never heard of them or spoken to them before. My conduct in the game I feel is solid. All I want is to be able to play with my team. If I am excluded from this league I feel as though it isn't validated. SEA CL was ran without exclusions, and TA rose to the top and were victorious. Now we have two of our top lineup excluded from the league (myself and pinder), and any results stemming from this league aren't going to be valid.. I think for the players as well, if I was in their shoes I would want everyone to be playing, so a victory felt earned, rather than hollow.
I hope we can come to some sort of agreement here. I believe there should be a seperation between forum privelages and tournaments. Ban people from leagues for hacking and cheating, not disagreeing with staff on completely unrelated matters or using the reputation system.
Again, I wish to iterate that I do believe that the admins of this site do our community a great service, most of the time. I am just blunt, honest and critical of pretty much every mistake; this cannot be easy to deal with and I apologise if you are offended by my actions or personality. I mean nothing personally. I just want esports in sea to take off, have solid events, and more than anything have people watch and support entertaining leagues and watch exciting games.
The thing that sucks is this situation really needs an independent person to adjudicate for the best interests of everyone. Previously I would have said Derek "Dox" Reball would have been the best person suited for that role - he's a trusted member of the community, at home and abroad - but your decision to delete his posts makes me think you wouldn't agree with his input.
Either way, hopefully something can be worked out that would make all parties happy. This situation has gotten ugly enough as it is.
Some of the points made in the above statements from both parties has raised my eyebrows and I wish to place something here now to discuss them further.
First of all, I'm also in clan Terror Australis (TA) with Deth. Please, if you are a reasonable person I hope you realise my clan affiliation does NOT change who I am as a person, nor the views and principles I subscribe to.
With that in mind, the below are some of my questions / comments regarding the aforementioned posts.
"The tournament lasts 2 months and I said that he could play NEXT season after serving the ban, making the ban really lenient."
We're banning hackers for the same length of time. Do you honestly feel Deth has committed any sort of crime or infraction as serious as this?
I felt it was unfair to TA so i talked to him and explaied the situation and it ended up with the 2 star TA players going back to TA which would never have been possible without my intervention. Are the players themselves not allowed to make their own decisions? I'm sure those players in question would have made their own choices when it came down to the SEA Clan League.
I also told him to look at the big picture, for those who agree with him that would end up hurting the community, bring negative attention to sc2sea, sponsors to stay away and affecting the potential of any future tournaments and those who agree with us would make pple lose respect for deth and his clan TA and everything else will go on as usual. Giving someone a ban from a tournament due to forum conduct is the main magnet for bad attention here. What kind of community are we a part of when views on a forum, no matter how heated, begin boiling over to the actual reason we're here? Starcraft 2.
You mentioned that people will make up their own minds about what is right or wrong about the situation, the same goes for potential sponsors / backers of current or future events run / held by this community. Every community has a level of drama but ultimately if the entity in the wrong is a single player you and I both know that one player of the 7,000 is not going to drive sponsorship away. The only thing that can do that is when the community begins to falter due to an admin / mod / organiser making a mistake with wider repercussions on the community in question.
sc2sea costs $305 to run every month. I personally don't know anything about this part, but I would atleast find it interesting to see how much money is coming in, verses how much is going out. $370 have come into the site so far this month (we're now 8 days in). Whats happened to $65 of it and the rest that's yet to come in from future donations for the month / TW keys / TGM subscriptions? (No i'm not saying nirvAnA IS profiteering, i'm just curious).
999/1000 times nothing gets removed and people just get infracted (warned) and the rest can decide for themselves why he was banned and theres transparency. For "transparency" sake, could you please reinstate both Dox and Rossi's posts in Deths apology thread? Also my -rep on your post in the same thread because since reading this I feel its warranted and as a part of "transparency" feel it should not have been removed.
Del's ban, Pinders ban. Irrelevant. We're talking about Deth's ban here.
I did not delete it so people could see it, but i closed it as i rather had the conversation be on skype between me and Rossi in private instead of dragging out over 20 pages over 5 days. I'm curious as to why this was not discussed with Deth over skype / msn rather than Rossi?
"i cant reverse the decision sc2sea will look weak" Reverse? No. I agree, you can't. Revise? Yes. Perhaps we're being a bit too hasty and rash in our dishing of punishment relating to a -rep, which currently is in dispute as per who truly said what. Both you and Deth have different opinions so considering you removed it I think you removed your own support to your argument... This is now a grey area so how can you justify (in the eyes of the players, casters and potential sponsors) what you've chosen to do?
...at the same time try to discredit all the hardwork we at sc2sea have put it over the last two years? Saying we run the forums like dictators, we mindless ban people, make rules just to unfairly peanlise your team - All this could not be further from the truth. You're correct, it could not be further from the truth. However he did not state the mods / admins as a whole are doing that... Only you. I've never come across a troll or anything of the sort that specifically targets JUST the one admin. Please do not do what you've accused Deth of doing (twisting words), because it just does not help us sort this shit out.
I'm saying "let me play OR i will post this on TL" is blackmail, especially when you are well aware of the consequences it may have for the community. Perhaps you've taken him out of context? Clearly he cannot post his opinion or view on SC2Sea (since he's banned) so how about on another public forum which you are unable to delete his views so easily? I think this comment was more "lets sort this out now, otherwise i'll be putting it to public review since I do not believe you're seeing to reason". My 2c.
You probably don't care or think of the consequences this might have or take into consideration how much time and effort we spent to built up our community. To you, you really don't care since you're not playing, there's "nothing to lose" You raise a valid point, this is OUR community... not just one person's. To that end, could you please address the following: [6:49:44 PM] bryan choo -: i dont owe any shit to anyone, certiantly not deth [6:49:48 PM] bryan choo -: i dont have to make a thread [6:49:50 PM] bryan choo -: for rules [6:49:57 PM] bryan choo -: i can just decide the rules myself and everyone will still play The above comment seems very NOT community to me. Thusfar as you have not posted a retort to this I shall reserve making judgement, however I feel this certainly needs to be addressed for both the credibility of yourself and the community everyone has worked to build.
I refer to the TL rules from which the humble admins/mods of sc2sea who are fully respectful of this website and everything that it has done and as a result, draw inspiration and guidance from. TL's 10 Commandments
In particular, I believe these in particular (and probably more) apply in some form or another to you, deth. (Read abovementioned link for full explanations of each)
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE 2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE 3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING 6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN - in particular, the bit about "Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative."
All things being considered, "evidence", or rather, smatterings of conversations which could easily have been posted out of context isn't much to go by on a forum.
Honestly deth, this tournament will go on, with or without you, and this tournament is something awesome nirvana and his team put together, and you're not doing TL/sc2sea/the sc2 community any good by your actions. So man up and take the ban, keep playing SC2 and have fun, or at the very least, don't stop other people from having theirs, or rather, wasting everyone's time. So let's just get the tournament on, shall we?
p.s. Dissing nirvana about him making a living off the site is quite a low (and inaccurate) blow. I'd imagine nirvana makes a shitload more working at his previous day job than at this current "job" and honestly its not like he's making a killing off his site. So even if he does owe the community "shit", you alone don't exactly constitute "the community".
p.p.s. My apologies to the rest of the forum members who have to put up with this.
On January 08 2012 01:44 mezza wrote: I refer to the TL rules from which the humble admins/mods of sc2sea who are fully respectful of this website and everything that it has done and as a result, draw inspiration and guidance from. TL's 10 Commandments
In particular, I believe these in particular (and probably more) apply in some form or another to you, death. (Read abovementioned link for full explanations of each)
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE 2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE 3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING 6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN - in particular, the bit about "Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative."
All things being considered, "evidence", or rather, smatterings of conversations which could easily have been posted out of context isn't much to go by on a forum.
Honestly deth, this tournament will go on, with or without you, and this tournament is something awesome nirvana and his team put together, and you're not doing TL/sc2sea/the sc2 community any good by your actions. So man up and take the ban, keep playing SC2 and have fun, or at the very least, don't stop other people from having theirs, or rather, wasting everyone's time. So let's just get the tournament on, shall we?
p.s. Dissing nirvana about him making a living off the site is quite a low (and inaccurate) blow. I'd imagine nirvana makes a shitload more working at his previous day job than at this current "job" and honestly its not like he's making a killing off his site. So even if he does owe the community "shit", you alone don't exactly constitute "the community".
p.p.s. My apologies to the rest of the forum members who have to put up with this.
Sorry if i dont just "man up and take my ban" which I feel is completely unjustified. Have you even bothered to read this thread? Or are you just blindly following nirvana's side. It certainly doesn't feel like you're being remotely neutral or critical in this situation.
Also i posted full chatlogs and thread from which I took said quotes, you can go read them if you want or just claim that they are out of context. Up to you.
I want to play for my clan in a league. My exclusion from said league is quite honestly ridiculous. My only avenue of option is to bring the discussion to a public forum where we can actually have a conversation without nirvana going and deleting all the offending evidence then making up convenient lies later.
It's great to see this on a level playing field for once. SC2Sea and its mods are great and this isn't about them. It's Nirvana who routinely edits, deletes and reararranges posts/threads and moderates haphazardly based on his mood and prejudices.
Banning someone from a tournament over a -1 rep on a forum post is overkill, even with deth's 'supposed' history. It's not like it can be cited anyway because posts get deleted. There's no transparency and no way to track moderation.
It's also funny that the person who eliminated aLt (Nirvana's clan) from the first SEA Clan League is the same one that got banned from the sequel over a minor FORUM infraction. Deth.
Honestly deth, this tournament will go on, with or without you, and this tournament is something awesome nirvana and his team put together, and you're not doing TL/sc2sea/the sc2 community any good by your actions.
100% true the tournament will soldier on through the drama as all tournaments have and will. 100% true that nirvAnA and the team have put together a damned awesome tournament the likes SEA has not yet seen and for that I personally am eternally thankful. 100% false that Deth is harming the community by stating his views and position on the matter. Where I live we value free speech and having the opportunity to have your own opinions and voice them. Thats what he's doing. Do you honestly think we'd be in this situation if it were handled better by the people in charge in the first instance?
So man up and take the ban
Why the bloody hell would he do that? Do you not believe in standing against injustice? Thats what this is. This was not a just decision and Deth (and I) are standing against that. You don't ask the wrongly accused of crime to "man up and accept what you've been delt", so why should he be any different?
Dissing nirvana about him making a living off the site is quite a low (and inaccurate) blow. I'd imagine nirvana makes a shitload more working at his previous day job than at this current "job" and honestly its not like he's making a killing off his site.
I'd like to personally see the actual incoming verses outgoing before ANYONE makes comment on this further. However, you said nirvAnA would be making more with his previous job? So you admit you believe he's making something financially from this? THATS DETHS POINT. Regardless of the $ value, if hes $1 or $10,000... Deth is saying you're making SOMETHING from it and therefore owe SOMETHING to the people who are giving it to you. Is that not a fair comment? As to what degree he "owes" the community, well, the finances would dictate that... He's already given so much and all Deth originally asked for was he acknowledge he does OWE the community (including Deth) the chance to have input. NirvAnA is yet to answer the "i'll do what I want and people can live with it comment"(paraphrased) so i'll just remind people of it and leave it there.
My apologies to the rest of the forum members who have to put up with this.
Mine too. But as the issue can no longer even be discussed within the community (due to the ban) it has come down to this.
To address your point k!llua, the map hackers "evets" and "meany" were never warned or infracted before, and they were banned from all sc2sea tournaments for a period of 6 months which yes could be reduced by "good behavior". Boxer(a BSG smurfer who was given alot of chances) as well as AZKziek (a racist who is also very disrespectful to mods was also given alot of chances) was banned from the site permanently and were banned from all sc2sea tournaments for LIFE and this was something universally agreed. There never was an issue about it. Are you saying i should let Zan play in SC2SEA tournaments? Because for the last clan league he asked to sign up his team and i remember TA overwhelmingly agreed he should not play in it. deth is just being banned for 2 months for something he has been given ALOT of chances for as well so the ban is extremely consistent to the previous bans carried out on the site.
Perhaps i was too lenient with the 6 month map hack ban but the point is not that, rather that deth was banned for 7 times already and was never going to change unless he received a meaningful ban. I deleted the posts by rossi and dox because i didnt want to refute all of it publicly and have the pages ended up to be over 300 replies over 5 days, like the drama we just had about the SEACL formats which was extremely time consuming already and we had to prepare for the SEAL launch. I talked to them privately on skype as you can see and much preferred that alternative rather then "airing dirty laundry" like what we are doing now. He then made a last attempt to blackmail me by posting it on TL if i did not lift his ban and when i refused he carried out his threat.
btw k!llua = TAdippa btw, is a member of TA, the same clan as deth, as is scarecrow who was their ex leader. And i feel you should at least declare that so people know where you're coming from rather then portray it like they were posts from neutral members.
Again, in response to scarecrows comments where i edit posts haphazardly and randomly delete comments which cannot be further from the truth.
I run the site NOTHING like deth or scarecrow has portrayed. Nowadays, the only times i edit posts is when someone posts a link and nothing else in the op. instead of deleting the post and warning the op for being lazy, i go to that link, copy n paste the gist of it and paste that in the OP so it turns into some discussion instead of pple insulting the OP for making a bad post. Other times pple dont format it well or like today we just integrated google maps so i helped put in just the maps for the lan tournies over the weekend so pple could find the LAN compy better. i never edit it such that the content is changed, i may have done so when the site first started cause i was an inexperienced admin but after the first few months i learned my lesson and never again did that.
As for my approach I am generally extremely lenient, to a fault that i even entertain ban discussions on MSN and i lift bans MULTIPLE times to give people another chance. I even gave whats accepted as SEA's biggest troll "AZKziek" about 8 chances before permanently banning him. 999/1000 times nothing gets removed and people just get infracted (warned) and the rest can decide for themselves why he was banned and theres transparency. There few times I have deleted/removed comments were when people were sexually harassing kelly, making racist remarks, or making ridiculous accusations on no basis which would lead to very heated agruments and derail threads, hence i remove them to prevent the threads for getting ruined. Because i know if i dont there will be 10 more posts by the few TA members saying the same thing and the thread would be completely derailed. There was also a time where deth and his friends thought it would be funny to make memes insulting SEA most hardworking commentator, "Benji" which I had to delete. And i DID NOT EVEN BAN them after they did that. I private messaged them to stop it and gave them a warning. Apart from deth and his friends, the comments i deleted can be counted on one hand. The way he is portraying the running of the site could not be further from the truth.
TA members are a tight bunch and they always stick up for each other, yes theres nothing wrong with that. But sometimes when one of them disagrees on something they get together and downvote people they dont like over small issues. Im not saying all of TA behave like this, they have some perfectly good members.
Benji the most hardworking SEA caster gets down voted for making a seemingly harmless comment, he even specifies he was kidding.
ALOT of the arguments we have in the community tend to head into a TA vs the rest of the sc2sea community direction and the above images is one of the examples of them, with many TA downvoting his harmless post and the community upvoting it because they felt the downvotes were unwarranted. Often victime stand alone as they have no clan to back them, and its what one of our MVPs nemo refers to as "cyber bullying". Most recently a suspected hacker was DEFENDED by TA and friends just because he was friends with them. The people accusing him who took the time and effort to write detailed analysis were "rep downvoted" by TA and friends and the analysis were ignored. Because it looked like the majority of the users were supporting this he got away scot free and we only banned him later when we realized what happened when we saw the SAME people defending their friend trying to give the new suspected map hacker life bans and noticed the appalling double standards.
Again i state, it is not ALL of TA who behave like this.
These are two examples of "rep abuse" which I have warned them many many times that the reputation (the karma +vote -vote thing) should be given based on the merit of posts and not because you dont like the person or are friends with them. Yes it is not a perfect system and is abusable but it doesnt mean you should abuse it. They take warnings extremely lightly to the point they don't even feel they deserve it when a legitimate ban is carried out.
This is a perfect example of how i visioned the rep system to be used, for e.g the community show of support for yoon after the gus saga when he was denied his ticket to PPSL because gus over budgeted.
Alright regarding the "Nirvana - Deth" drama, I'll first say that I've only read some parts of the posts made by both deth and Nirvana, and I feel that they should continue the argument via personal messages, or some other media that ISN'T open to public, because I feel that this is turning into a personal argument between the 2 people.
Just my 2 cents.
On January 08 2012 02:06 aLt)nirvana wrote: To address your point k!llua, the map hackers "evets" and "meany" were never warned or infracted before, and they were banned from all sc2sea tournaments for a period of 6 months which yes could be reduced by "good behaviour". Perhaps i was too lenient but the point is not that, rather that deth was banned for 7 times already and was never going to change unless he received a meaningful ban. I deleted the posts by rossi and dox because i didnt want to refute all of it publicly and have the pages ended up to be over 300 replies over 5 days, like the drama we just had about the SEACL formats which was extremely time consuming already and we had to prepare for the SEAL launch. I talked to them privately on skype as you can see and much preferred that alternative rather then "airing dirty laundry" like what we are doing now. He then made a last attempt to blackmail me by posting it on TL if i did not lift his ban and when i refused he carried out his threat.
btw k!llua = TAdippa btw, is a member of TA, the same clan as deth, as is scarecrow who was their ex leader. And i feel you should at least declare that so people know where you're coming from rather then portray it like they were posts from neutral members.
TA members are a tight bunch and they always stick up for each other, yes theres nothing wrong with that. But sometimes when one of them disagrees on something they get together and downvote people they dont like over small issues. Im not saying all of TA behave like this, they have some perfectly good members.
Sorry if my post sprout a misunderstanding or anything, blame it on my poor english.
Benji the most hardworking SEA caster gets down voted for making a seemingly harmless comment, he even specifies he was kidding.
ALOT of the arguments we have in the community tend to head into a TA vs the rest of the sc2sea community direction and the above images is one of the examples of them, with many TA downvoting his harmless post and the community upvoting it because they felt the downvotes were unwarranted. Often victime stand alone as they have no clan to back them, and its what one of our MVPs nemo refers to as "cyber bullying". Most recently a suspected hacker was DEFENDED by TA and friends just because he was friends with them. The people accusing him who took the time and effort were "rep abused" and down voted by TA and friends. Because it looked like the majority of the users were supporting this he got away scot free and we only banned him later when we realized what happened.
These are two examples of "rep abuse" which I have warned them many many times that the reputation (the karma +vote -vote thing) should be given based on the merit of posts and not because you dont like the person or are friends with them. Yes it is not a perfect system and is abusable but it doesnt mean you should abuse it. They take warnings extremely lightly to the point they don't even feel they deserve it when a legitimate ban is carried out.
I'm sorry Nirvana, but I don't feel that you should bring the topic regarding TA and some of their members that "abuse" the rep system on SC2SEA on this argument and more importantly, on TeamLiquid. I also feel that you shouldn't mention the real identity of k!llua, which is, according to your post, TAdippa, just because, according to your post, "so people know where you're coming from rather then portray it like they were posts from neutral members.".
I don't want to make any baseless personal assumptions regarding this statement, but I just want to say that just because he is a member of TA doesn't mean that people should treat him differently regarding his post, as if he's defending his friend, or as if he's picking on a side. There is nothing wrong with being on the same clan and posting as if he's a neutral member.
This is a perfect example of how i visioned the rep system to be used, for e.g the community show of support for yoon after the gus saga when he was denied his ticket to PPSL.
So community support is only ok when it's a part of the community you approve of, supporting a figure you agree with? Karma systems bandwagon, and spammed support for Yoon is the same concept as spammed disapproval of Benji. 'Rep abuse' doesn't exist - if a lot of people are casting their votes, that means whatever's happening influences a lot of people. TA having the weight to 'abuse' the system is because TA is a huge part of the community.
I'd really prefer it if you took this out of the tournament thread - I recognize that this discussion probably can't take place evenly on SC2SEA.com, but this isn't the best section for it. I'd personally prefer that tournaments are not run by the same people that control forums so that there's more neutral arbitration of these issues, but what can you do.
First of all, I'm also in clan Terror Australis (TA) with Deth. Please, if you are a reasonable person I hope you realise my clan affiliation does NOT change who I am as a person, nor the views and principles I subscribe to. - from ME.
btw k!llua = TAdippa btw, is a member of TA, the same clan as deth, as is scarecrow who was their ex leader. And i feel you should at least declare that so people know where you're coming from rather then portray it like a post from a neutral member.
Regarding what I said, how does someone's clan affiliation change their personal views or principles? It doesn't. So what relevance does it have as to who is doing the posting? These are PEOPLE'S opinions not a clan's opinions. Riichard (current TA leader) told me not to get involved to prevent TA getting pictured as some group of monsters who have nothing better to do than troll, but I have because AS A PERSON I could not let this go.
We're talking about Deth (Daniel)(he too is a person) not the bloody clan. Leave clan affiliation out of the one person issue we're trying to discuss.
But sometimes when one of them disagrees on something they get together and downvote people they dont like over small issues. Im not saying all of TA behave like this, they have some perfectly good members.
It was a shit joke. It got -rep for being a shit joke. That does not mean HOLYSHIT TA REP TRAIN AT IT AGAIN. It means HEY FUCK we're a large clan, and we frequent the community site, and WE each individually thought the joke was shit. Keep. Clan. Out. Of. This.
Most recently a suspected hacker was DEFENDED by TA and friends just because he was friends with them. The people accusing him who took the time and effort were "rep abused" and down voted by TA and friends. Because it looked like the majority of the users were supporting this he got away scot free and we only banned him later when we realized what happened.
You're right, because nobody from FaDe downvoted at all, only TA right?
NirvAnA please PLEASE mate take the time to think about what you're saying and how you're directing this discussion because its becoming you bashing the fuck out of the clan I love rather than defending your decision to ban Deth (due to forum issues) from a tournament. He's been positing evidence every step of the way, please do the same.
These are two examples of "rep abuse" which I have warned them many many times that the reputation (the karma +vote -vote thing) should be given based on the merit of posts and not because you dont like the person or are friends with them. Yes it is not a perfect system and is abusable but it doesnt mean you should abuse it.
If the system is flawed and abusable and ultimately leads to drama like this, REMOVE IT! Make the obvious decision that should have been made as soon as issues like this were exposed to save us all the trouble of people complaining when someone doesn't like what they post.
Its all good and well to fill the forums with smiley faces for all, but if you can't take the good and the bad with the system, maybe just remove the -rep and keep the +rep? Would that not solve the issue??
Your "perfect example" of what you envisioned with the rep system even displays the flaw... "Aeropunk: C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!" (negative rep). Pointless isn't it? If the rep system is the reason for the core of any of these complaints simply remove it as logic would suggest.
On January 08 2012 02:25 aFganFlyTrap wrote: please dont come back any time soon
Oh I'll definitely still be around to watch the clan league, but I've said what I wanted to deth with regards to the ban issue and I'll hold my tongue on that, if you're keen to reopen a discussion though, I'd highly advise you to use the PM system instead.
First off, i'm a mod of sc2sea. I've hosted quite a few tournaments for SC2SEA and been around long enough (few weeks after site creation) to give my standpoint of the money matter.
The statement was made off based off donations in this month only. So what about the money that goes into SC2SEA CO (SC2SEA's Weekly Community Open) every week ? What about all the money that went into every single SC2SEA tournament so far ? You seem to forget that when the site was first created, and all the tournaments happened, sc2sea had almost ZERO donations. Through this, there's the cost to run the site. Also, you don't see how much effort Nirvana even puts into this site. How much work he has to do every week handling all the tournaments, with tons of other commitments (eg, his wife). Sure, he has the moderating team to help him out with everything, but if anyone is unsure of anything, they still have to look for him. Take a look at all the things he has added to the site. Also, the sc2sea store was something the COMMUNITY wanted from sc2sea. I remember there were tons of posts asking where to get filco keyboards, KR keys and stuff. Then someone posted an idea about sc2sea having a store to sell stuff like this. The other stuff that were added into the store was VOTED by community members (Shirts). TGM started off as something to help improve the level of SEA players, and I'm sure everyone that has subscribed to TGM will admit that they have improved. For all the effort the people that wrote the TGM have put in, they obviously do deserve some payment out of it. Do also remember that TGM is CONSTANTLY updated with new content, not a one time manual. TGM writers still have to work on it every week to add new content, and Nirvana is the one that does most of the work / formatting / proofreading after the other writers have finished writing articles.
Last, insulting of mods and admins is definitely severe and the person deserves to be out of the site completely, just my 2c.
If you don't respect the people that have done everything for the entire community, you don't deserve to be part of it.
TL;DR: You don't know how much work all the mods and Nirvana has put into sc2sea. You people have to stop judging and be thankful for the site that was created for the entire SEA community to improve and socialise.
PS: Deth's and Nirvana's argument should really be taken into private. This is negatively affecting the entire SEA community.
I like that the two rep comments by Maynarde from nirvAnA's post say "hi guys" Hi Maynarde... ... ... AANNNNNYWAY, I'm also a member of TA - before I get any further into this... The whole thing has turned into two personalities clashing, neither one able to stand down...
Why don't we all just watch this and think about the important things... and be a bit happier.. :D
The ban is over the top imo, site ban - yes.. tournament ban I feel unfounded. Since there are people competing in the tournament that aren't even members of sc2sea.com and PROVEN hackers are given the option to work off their ban with 'good behaviour', something that isn't on offer for deth - who's (alleged - I'm not siding on this) crime was forum trolling... This doesn't seem suiting to the crimes committed...
regardless, this isn't going anywhere - I suggest that this discussion be taken off forums and into private messages.. personalities put aside and some sort of compromise found.
another note, the SEACL is going to be awesome.. to the sc2sea community, admins and members of TA:- WROOVVV ROOOOOOWW
EDIT: Also, I think by "you owe the community shit blah blah" comment made by deth.. means - community makes sc2sea.com - with out the community there is no site... the community even reach into their pocket to donate because they love the site so much.. and with that support (and I believe deth means) the admin team of sc2sea.com owe the community quality content...
So what about the money that goes into SC2SEA CO (SC2SEA's Weekly Community Open) every week ? What about all the money that went into every single SC2SEA tournament so far ? You seem to forget that when the site was first created, and all the tournaments happened, sc2sea had almost ZERO donations. Through this, there's the cost to run the site.
I don't believe anyone here is disputing that nirvAnA has previously been EXTREMELY out of pocket for the running and supporting of the site and community events, please do not take what I have said to mean "for all time". My comments regarding the finances of the site were relating to current day, as was Deth's comment.
Also, you don't see how much effort Nirvana even puts into this site. How much work he has to do every week handling all the tournaments, with tons of other commitments (eg, his wife). Sure, he has the moderating team to help him out with everything, but if anyone is unsure of anything, they still have to look for him.
Again nobody is disputing that nirvAnA has put a metric fucktonne of work into SC2SEA and the SEA community in general, but I fail to see what this comment has to do with Deth being banned from an event for a forum infraction. If I were a mod I'd flag this post and ask you to stay on topic!
Also, the sc2sea store was something the COMMUNITY wanted from sc2sea. I remember there were tons of posts asking where to get filco keyboards, KR keys and stuff. Then someone posted an idea about sc2sea having a store to sell stuff like this. The other stuff that were added into the store was VOTED by community members (Shirts). TGM started off as something to help improve the level of SEA players, and I'm sure everyone that has subscribed to TGM will admit that they have improved.
I don't think anybody has disputed this either, however from how I read it Deth did mention that part of the money made goes to nirvAnA and as a result he does legitimately owe the community the opportunity for input (as Deth said in a less assertive way).
Last, insulting of mods and admins is definitely severe and the person deserves to be out of the site completely, just my 2c.
Fair call, ban him from SC2SEA then. I believe the EVENT in question is the SEACL (not the SC2SEACL). If we're going to sell this as an event for the SEA community we cannot dare have the nerve to claim that SC2SEA is the beginning and end of it, therefore it cannot dictate who participates (besides eligibility based on SEA activity / residency of course). Yes there's a high degree of SC2SEA control and involvement because ultimately SC2SEA made the event, but a forum infraction should never ever ever ever ever equal a tournament ban.
If you don't respect the people that have done everything for the entire community, you don't deserve to be part of it.
Respect is not what is in question here. Deth posted his opinion on the event, got smacked for it. Deth posted -rep due to nirvAnA not giving any consideration to Deth's post, and in his -rep reminded nirvAnA that the community doesn't start and end with him and he owes the people of that community the right to have their views heard and considered. This point should not have been directed at nirvAnA directly as that was just not the right thing to do, but the result of that is where we are now... discussing an unfair tournament ban.
You people have to stop judging and be thankful for the site that was created for the entire SEA community to improve and socialise.
I'm a part of the community too. "The site was created for the entire SEA community." This means we are all entitled to equal opportunity and opinion.
Ultimately the decision made regarding Deth's forum conduct (in my opinion) was the wrong one. This could have been handled better and more intelligently. This issue has now only served to damage the community as a whole in both stability and credibility on the world stage.
Let me ask you all this. If someone got banned, lets say, Zanooku... from Blizzard's forums due to being a colossal troll or infractions or whatever... Would they prevent him from signing up and participating in a Blizzard ran tournament (lets imagine say a Community Open, if they were to ever run one)?
I suggested for the rep system to be removed as well as it is quite abuseable, and it makes my life difficult. It is not a pretty number when people is allowed to write words on it, giving them a loophole to avoid getting banned for harrassing other users. That being said, Deth always tries one way or another to get into trouble with sc2sea rules. I have personally warned him and infracted him multiple times, and I have been seriously lenient with most of the moderation I did. But the fact is that, we volunteered our time to run tournaments and manage the site. I have helped hosted the Community Open and BSG Open, and moderated the forums and helped grown the community for SC2SEA for over a year now and I have never gotten paid for any of the hardwork I have done, and I would definitely not appreciate getting harrassed. This is my justification for pinder's ban (as I have a personal hand in his ban), and I am sure that this can include deth's ban as well.
I'm pretty sure that most of the community would not know how difficult is it to manage a tournament, week after week after week, missing out on 5 hours a week on your life to make something amazing for the community to enjoy, and this should not be ruined by someone like deth who just comes in and just criticize without any constructiveness. I highly doubt that he understands how stressful and difficult it is to run something like this for the community and we certainly don't need his action to further stress out the team. We have to search for sponsors, get a proper format that most of the people will agree with, making the tournament post, advertise the tournament, run the tournament without any major issues, help the casters get games to cast so they have minimal down time, help with players query, update the brackets, making sure that players are not breaking any rules, making sure that the tournament runs smoothly without any part of the brackets getting lagged behind and handle the prize giving and replays. I personally ran a 256 bracket tournament alone, with minor support and it is one of the most challenging thing I ever did in my life. This is all without getting acknowledge or paid. All you guys have to do is to play. So if you think we're in the wrong for not wanting you to play in the tournament, then we are, so run your own tournament.
Nirvana has done far more for the SC2 SEA community more than anyone else, maybe up there together with Dox, and he should be respected for that, not being harrassed, discriminated and especially blackmailed. SC2SEA wouldn't have happened without the initiatives of Nirvana and the rest of the community. If you have an issue with him, do it privately. Seriously, this is not helping the scene at all.
-BakaInu (Moderator, Tournament Admin for SC2SEA)
TL;DR: Disrespect us, we ban, then if you don't like it, run your own tournament.
I suggested for the rep system to be removed as well as it is quite abuseable, and it makes my life difficult. It is not a pretty number when people is allowed to write words on it, giving them a loophole to avoid getting banned for harrassing other users.
Here here!
But the fact is that, we volunteered our time to run tournaments and manage the site. I have helped hosted the Community Open and BSG Open, and moderated the forums and helped grown the community for SC2SEA for over a year now and I have never gotten paid for any of the hardwork I have done, and I would definitely not appreciate getting harrassed.
All you guys have to do is to play.
TAEdarus, SC2SEA BSGCL Admin seasons 1 and 2 (2 was not active much due to being homeless, but I still tried!), Terror Australis BSGCL Team Manager and Captain.
Would have loved to be given the opportunity to help further in the scene, as I did put my name down for further admin assistance with the SEACL and nirvAnA still has a "blank cheque" from me for any help should he ever need / request it.
So if you think we're in the wrong for not wanting you to play in the tournament, then we are, so run your own tournament.
Woah there! You don't want him to play in the tournament? I was of the understanding he was banned out of necessity for the stability of the community and this was a regrettable but avoidable outcome of his conduct on the forums? I hope you truly do not mean to say you "don't want him" to play!
Nirvana has done far more for the SC2 SEA community more than anyone else, maybe up there together with Dox, and he should be respected for that, not being harrassed, discriminated and especially blackmailed. SC2SEA wouldn't have happened without the initiatives of Nirvana and the rest of the community. If you have an issue with him, do it privately. Seriously, this is not helping the scene at all.
Nobody is disputing nirvAnA has put a buttload of work into the community and scene, he certainly should be respected and even admired for that! As for harassment, discrimination and blackmail I think you've taken everything a LOT out of context. Well, its either that or all the admins seemingly still do not understand Deth's motives for what he has said and done, in which case go back to page 2 (of this thread) and start over again please.
For the record, I'd like it noted that nobody is yet to address nirvAnA's comment regarding (paraphrasing) "I can do what I like and everyone simply has to accept it". To clarify, my concern here is that we're a community and this seems more like a dictatorship in this line than a community.
Honestly, the SC2SEA staff, and of course Nirvana have worked really really hard to bring the SC2 SEA community together. They also work hard to organize these tournaments for the community. If not for these people, we would not even have the wonderful SC2SEA community we have today. Nirvana has clearly stated that this ban is not because of a simple - rep on a post.
Regarding what I said, how does someone's clan affiliation change their personal views or principles? It doesn't. So what relevance does it have as to who is doing the posting? These are PEOPLE'S opinions not a clan's opinions. Riichard (current TA leader) told me not to get involved to prevent TA getting pictured as some group of monsters who have nothing better to do than troll, but I have because AS A PERSON I could not let this go.
We're talking about Deth (Daniel)(he too is a person) not the bloody clan. Leave clan affiliation out of the one person issue we're trying to discuss.
Relationships and friendships between individuals can very strongly influence their personal views and principles with regards to a specific scenario. As TA Deth is both your friend and your clan mate. I'm pretty sure that would influence your opinion on the matter. Just take the example of FADE's reaction to the recent evetS incident.
TA as a whole is a very tight team ( which isn't a bad thing) . Even for myself as someone who does not post much on the forums, this much is clear. Deth even mentioned that the TA members rallied together to up-vote each other's posts to prove that the system sucked.
Banning someone from a tournament over a -1 rep on a forum post is overkill, even with deth's 'supposed' history. It's not like it can be cited anyway because posts get deleted.
(Scarecrow)
From nirvana's post it was clear that the ban was not because of a -1 rep post. it was because of a string of incidents and he also stated his train of thought behind the ban.
(ill explain more later but the basic logic behind my decision was SITE BANS DO NO WORK on DETH, it has no effect because he has been banned 7 TIMES before and he doesn't care, he still can see the site he just cant post. its the SEAL that holds meaning to him and that is what would prevent him from disrespecting the mods again in the future.
Finally I just want to comment on what you just mentioned TAEdarus .
You probably don't care or think of the consequences this might have or take into consideration how much time and effort we spent to built up our community. To you, you really don't care since you're not playing, there's "nothing to lose" You raise a valid point, this is OUR community... not just one person's. To that end, could you please address the following: [6:49:44 PM] bryan choo -: i dont owe any shit to anyone, certiantly not deth [6:49:48 PM] bryan choo -: i dont have to make a thread [6:49:50 PM] bryan choo -: for rules [6:49:57 PM] bryan choo -: i can just decide the rules myself and everyone will still play The above comment seems very NOT community to me. Thusfar as you have not posted a retort to this I shall reserve making judgement, however I feel this certainly needs to be addressed for both the credibility of yourself and the community everyone has worked to build.
For the record, I'd like it noted that nobody is yet to address nirvAnA's comment regarding (paraphrasing) "I can do what I like and everyone simply has to accept it". To clarify, my concern here is that we're a community and this seems more like a dictatorship in this line than a community.
Your taking it totally out of context and reading his chat conversation literally without considering the overhanging factors. Nirvana went out of his way to reach out to the community to find what format, rules etc they would like. Essentially to get input to make it a community tournament. Obviously u can't always please everyone. But he wanted the community's input. He is not saying that he can just do whatever he likes and u gotta accept it. He is only saying he could have set the rules on his own. but instead he decided to get input from the community. All he is doing here is emphasizing this point that he could have set the rules, like most tournament organizers do. But instead took the trouble to reach out and gather opinions from the community.
Your taking it totally out of context and reading his chat conversation literally without considering the overhanging factors. Nirvana went out of his way to reach out to the community to find what format, rules etc they would like. Essentially to get input to make it a community tournament. Obviously u can't always please everyone. But he wanted the community's input. He is not saying that he can just do whatever he likes and u gotta accept it. He is only saying he could have set the rules on his own. but instead he decided to get input from the community. All he is doing here is emphasizing this point that he could have set the rules, like most tournament organizers do. But instead took the trouble to reach out and gather opinions from the community.
To be exact this is the conversation me and rossi had and deth had deliberately cut off the last 2 lines to portray me in a negative light, like many of other things he is accusing me off and lifting out of context.
[7/1/2012 3:49:38 PM] bryan choo -: i dont owe any shit to anyone, certiantly not deth [7/1/2012 3:49:41 PM] bryan choo -: i dont have to make a thread [7/1/2012 3:49:43 PM] bryan choo -: for rules [7/1/2012 3:49:50 PM] bryan choo -: i can just decide the rules myself and everyone will still play [7/1/2012 3:49:56 PM] Rossi: wow [7/1/2012 3:50:00 PM] bryan choo -: i dont even have to host a tournament [7/1/2012 3:50:03 PM] bryan choo -: but i did do that [7/1/2012 3:50:11 PM] bryan choo -: and that is the comment i received [7/1/2012 3:50:15 PM] bryan choo -: do u get my point? [7/1/2012 3:50:30 PM] bryan choo -: i actually spent more time trying to make a better tournament and received that comment
This is why things should be discussed privately. Edarus probably didn't do this on purpose either, but he took it COMPLETELY out of context and so did deth but deth did so INTENTIONALLY to portray me in a negative light from obviously private conversations.
Like tendersteak said, who by the way is a clan mate of mine but is still trying to be very reasonable- I DID NOT decide the rules by myself, it was always after discussion with our mods and after feedback from our community. And in this SEACL#2 instance I made not ONE but TWO threads to gather the communities ideas and Edarus should be well aware of that since hes actively involved with the site.
I was pretty cut when glade/tgun pulled out as a DIRECT RESULT of the negativity in the thread. At the point i started to put my foot down on the people being rude so the tournament could be salvaged. i also made those remarks above to rossi to express my frustration which basically meant "Why do I spend the extra effort and time to gather discussion for the format and listen to community feedback when all i get is drama, personal attacks on me and my mods etc? When i could have very well decided on the format on my own as many tournament organizers do and everyone would still play in it? " I was expressing my frustration for spending that extra time futilely but at no time was i ever going to do that.
The reality of it is i went through the trouble of making two very big threads (168 replies, 158 replies and the replies are WALLS OF TEXT over and over again) as well as CHANGE the rules, implementing a format which TASCARECROW himself suggested, only for other TA members to disagree and ask to change the format again just to suite them awhile later, conveniently when SQLT decided to join xGking (meaning they would lose 2 star players). And these lifting of things out of context to mislead people to try and say i "made all the rules myself" like a dictator to portray me in the worse light possible are quite ridiculous.
So are the attempts to imply I made the "ban to deliberately hurt TA", the "dictator haphazardly editing of posts and banning people" and the "do nothing but profit from the community". They are all baseless accusations and attempts to discredit what i say which I have already provided detailed explanations for earlier in this thread.
What they do not address is the crux of the matter which is
Why a tournament + site ban and not just a "A site ban" (they agree the site ban is validated) and for that I already had replied but it was ignored and all these unfounded allegations started pouring out.
Why make it a tournament ban instead of just a site ban?
1. The ban has to have significance or it will not be taken seriously. A site ban is close to meaningless especially in deth's case because when you're banned you can still see everything on the site. He isnt a very active forum poster so even if he is site banned it doesnt make much difference as he doesn't post much in the first place. This is also evidenced by the fact he was banned and unbanned 7 times before and have been taking these bans lightly like "slaps on the wrist". All his bans have been progressive, with first warnings, then infractions, then site bans, then this.
Would a ban on him playing in SEAL hold significance? Yes, definitely. It will be something he will take seriously and remember and hes is very likely to not make such accusatory remarks on me or the mods in the future. At the same time it is reasonable because we are not life banning him like ALOT of communities would. In just two months he will be allowed to play in next season's SEAL. Should he behave the same way as before and not learn his mistake, next time the ban will probably be increased to 2 or more seasons.
2. I can't let him play because ill be letting some one who spat in our faces play in a tournament we are taking a huge amount of time and effort to run. It feels wrong in every way and I have to set a precedence on how mods and admins should be treated. I have to protect myself and my mod team who spend countless hours of their own time running the tournaments that we play in, it is a thankless job, we don't ask you to express appreciation but directly attacking us is unacceptable. How many tournaments has baka alone organized and how many did Pinder himself play in when he made that remark to Baka? How can we continue to let these players play after saying that. Insulting / personal attacks will not be tolerated.
3. This is from Zanooku via Cure: "Funny how the TA guys are apparently saying that deth should only get given a site ban. When i got banned they were the ones saying that i should be banned from tournaments as well."
Zan was banned from the site and that banned was extended to ALL sc2sea tournaments we ran, something even TA themselves pushed for. deth is the second highest banned player on sc2sea and he has made at least 4 alternative accounts to circumvent the bans. How convenient is it for them to go back on what they said saying the site bans and tourney bans should be separate now that their team mate is the one who got it? And trying to use the Bias Angle of me intentionally wanted to hurt their team when all other logic fails? Being a top player DOES NOT exempt you from the rules nor does it let you avoid bans, you have to follow the rules like everyone else and above all DO NOT attack the mods or make wild accusations.
4. This will be the precedent now set. It doesn't matter how good at starcraft you are or what clan you are from. Insulting / personal attacks directly on moderators / admins will not be taken lightly and will result in bans from any tournaments organized by sc2sea. To quote the TL rules which i have huge respect for -
THIS IS OUR HOUSE.
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you.
Edit: In response to TAdippa's post below - It is extremely hypocritical to say you wanted glade and tgun in when the poll results available publicly to everyone, you can clearly see otherwise and there was opposition to prevent them from playing in the league as that would hurt TA's chances.
To be specific:
I count 6 TA members there including scarecrow saying they should NOT play in the league.
The whole angle you are approaching now (after ignoring the crux of the problem siteban or site+tourney ban) by attacking me on the basis of being bias is low and is detracting from the main issue. In reference to this, these "biasness allegations" are nothing new. In our first SEASL tourney we had a new patch just come out and that screwed up Jazbas's SC2 client and he couldn't log in (i believe it was semi finals) so the tournament had to be delayed for an hour.
I felt it was reasonable to delay because it was at such a late stage of the tournament and it wasnt jazbas's fault and the blizzard rep was trying her best to fix his problem and did not know what was going on either. But because his opponent was from TA, a whole bunch of them got together and started criticizing me in the sites channel accusing me of being biased and favoring ngen for delaying the match, again a totally unfounded accusation. just the day before i delayed FXOfilthy's match as well! As the patch messed up his relocation and he didnt check before hand. I could imagine the shitstorm that would have happened if it was an aLt player instead and if I made a reasonable judgment call like that.
Every time we run a tournament, it is these few individuals who believe they deserve special treatment and make things difficult to run. They believe the rules dont apply to them, yet insist the rules be enforced on others. They believe it is "their community" yet show no respect to the admins and mods have spent hours making it what it is today. They defended their map hacking friend when was suspected, crucified another hacker not from their clan. They insisted on AZKziek being banned from the site as well as tournaments and felt their clan mate deth should only be banned from the site and NOT tournaments as well. They see deth not as some one stubborn who is unable to accept his VERY LENIENT 2 month ban and letting down his team, but see me instead as stubborn for not giving him special treatment and they rationalize it by saying im out to penalize their team "intentionally". There is some very alarming double standards going on.
=============
Lastly I will not respond to this anymore, its clearly going in circles and this is something that should have stayed in private conversation - it is embarrassing for all parties involved, and it will ultimately just end up hurting SEA and I apologise to all of you on TL who had to witness this.
i don't give a shit if nirvana "exposes" my real identity; it's not like i'm trying to hide or anything. (my original account on TL got banned a couple of years ago when i made a separate one, and this has been all i've used since then.)
if anyone asked me who i was or what my affiliations were, i'd answer honestly, so please don't try to pick apart my credibility by such a back-door method.
furthermore, when it came to the case of evets, he was only banned after 6 months AFTER significant community opposition. you originally wanted him banned for 3 months, which is what i said.
did i even mention zanooku at all? no, so why are you bringing it up?
the fact that you didn't want to deal with things publicly is fine, but the fact that you are NOW debating this in a public forum means you shouldn't be wiping the contributions of others (whose credibility is more or less untarnished, particularly in dox's case) from the record.
ALOT of the arguments we have in the community tend to head into a TA vs the rest of the sc2sea community direction and the above images is one of the examples of them
No, they don't. You know how large TA is; the opposition of a few or even a handful is not and never should be mistaken for representing everyone. What confuses me, however, is the fact that you basically admit this point, but not before writing an entire paragraph essentially slating the character of everyone in the team. To me, that says you're trying to make sure you can defend yourself by what you say on the record - but the impression you want people to take away is one that is deliberately and maliciously skewed.
I've been in many situations like this before where an admin has to deal with things as fairly as possible without letting emotions get in the way. I know what it's like to run big tournaments and little tournaments while dealing with absolute arseholes. Trust me, you think TA is bad from your point of view - be grateful you haven't had to deal with some of the people in the Counter-Strike community. (The guys that went to the WCG.au finals last year can testify to this.)
The only thing that should prevent people from playing in tournaments is if they undermine the integrity of the tournament by cheating. But by removing one of the best Terrans in SEA from the tournament - and let's not forget, the player who knocked out aLt, nirvana's clan from the last SEACL - it also undermines the results of the tournament.
That's why everyone wanted Glade and tgun in the tournament so badly, because it would be silly to have a competition without them. Anybody that won would essentially be undermined by the fact that they didn't beat the best. Deth is one of the best, and he should be playing. If he was in aLt he would be playing.
There has to be better options than not playing in the SEACL or not playing in any tournaments whatsoever. Nirvana, you need to let go of your pride and set a better precedent. Ban deth from the forums - but don't ruin the SEACL by banning players that deserve to participate. The SEACL belongs to everyone - not just you.
On January 08 2012 04:16 aLt)nirvana wrote: I was pretty cut when glade/tgun pulled out as a DIRECT RESULT of the negativity in the thread. At the point i started to put my foot down on the people being rude so the tournament could be salvaged.
Consider: where does the negativity come from? Let's recap the thread: you proposed rather unilaterally (and against the wishes of the members of the competition) to simply give the best players on the server to weaker teams, massively disadvantaging the strong teams (ie: teams that had put in more effort to be more competitive). And by weaker teams, we mean 'the teams you picked'. How did you not expect negative feedback? It's completely against the idea of a competition to give such a huge advantage to a competitor, like letting MC play for me in SSLs because I'm a low seed.
Skimming the thread, I see less 'rudeness' and more 'hey, what the fuck' as a reaction. Then when you suggest new ideas, you get positive feedback. Until you flip out at TAChampi (http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=54254&postcount=123) for saying you're finally having a decent idea - guess what, being a contributor doesn't make you immune to criticism, and it's that aggressive reaction from someone in your position that prompts direct attacks. You say you're 'gathering feedback' but you're snapping at people providing it and acting like you are somehow above the community you say you're serving. You even hint at martyring (there's so much negativity, I guess I won't run this!), which would have gotten you flat out banned from TL if you did it here.
If you want to do administrative work, distance yourself and stop trying to argue with people. This isn't the first time SEA's seen you do this.
Well, this is from Zanooku: "Funny how the TA guys are apparently saying that deth should only get given a site ban. When i got banned they were the ones saying that i should be banned from tournaments as well." Btw dippa, TAEdarus was the one that brought Zanooku into the picture in the first place.
About the matter of Nirvana banning deth from SEACL and affecting TA's chances: Sometime ago, if i remember right, Rooney got into a fight outside and was suspended for 2 weeks. He couldn't play for his team too. Deth has to understand that his actions directly affected the chances of his team winning.
@Xeen about the "Flipping out issue": Champi did not provide constructive feedback at all with that post. If anything, that thread was a direct and personal insult to the admin of the site. It's basically saying that he didn't respect Nirvana at all.
This was his exact post: TAChampi: you just earnt back some of the respect i lost for you from all the other stupid things youve tried to pitch, keep it up...
This is what tgun had to say about it: "It wasn't that Champi pointed out a stupid idea, it's that he went and shit all over Nirvana saying every idea he's had has been retarded (except that one). It was a very poorly hidden insult in a compliment."
Nirvana had every right to react the way he did. Keep in mind that Champi was NOT even banned for this comment. He was banned only when he started attacking Nirvana in the chatbox a few days later. Note that Champi has apologised and said that he was facing real-life issues which caused him to speak in that manner. He has since been unbanned and is allowed to participate in the SEACL as this is the FIRST time he's acting this way.
We aren't banning deth from other tournaments held on the site by other contributors, (ESL,etc) . Of course those will be according to their rules and what those admins decide. How can we directly run a tournament for a player who has repeatedly insulted us time and again, and believes its our obligation to serve them regardless of any behaviour they display?
@Xeen about the "Flipping out issue": Champi did not provide constructive feedback at all with that post. If anything, that thread was a direct and personal insult to the admin of the site. It's basically saying that he didn't respect Nirvana at all.
This was his exact post: TAChampi: you just earnt back some of the respect i lost for you from all the other stupid things youve tried to pitch, keep it up...
It wasn't a post - it was a rep comment, which is what makes this seen even more ludicrous. Rep comments aren't meant to be used as a tool for "constructive posts", that's what posts themselves are there for. Rep comments are meant for flippant, off-hand one liners. Nirvana could have turned that into a positive if he wanted to.
Edit: In response to TAdippa's post below - It is extremely hypocritical to say you wanted glade and tgun in when the poll results available publicly to everyone, you can clearly see otherwise and there was opposition to prevent them from playing in the league as that would hurt TA's chances.
To be specific:
I count 6 TA members there including scarecrow saying they should NOT play in the league.
Another useless strawman argument - you've been told time, and time, and time, and time again: TA is a massive clan, stop trying brand everyone with the same brush.
ESPECIALLY when your own picture shows that I voted there should be another solution, as opposed to voting to prevent them from playing.
Also, the poll said "what do you think about glade and tgun playing as mercenaries".
That doesn't mean people were opposed to glade and tgun playing in the league whatsoever.
Please try and represent arguments honestly, you are going too far. It's not "special" treatment people want - just fairness.
edit: Because I know you'll misrepresent this: people voted for the options they were given. I know Rossi and the others were fine with tgun+glade playing if they made their own team or were already part of one (like aLt, nGen, whatever).
Also, you have no grounds for whining about attacking people based on credibility, since you tried that exact same argument on me a few pages earlier.
edit 2: for further lol's: 8 TA members voted for "there should be another option" in the polls .. but Nirvana fails to point that out.
On January 08 2012 07:03 aLtCure wrote: @Xeen about the "Flipping out issue": Champi did not provide constructive feedback at all with that post. If anything, that thread was a direct and personal insult to the admin of the site. It's basically saying that he didn't respect Nirvana at all.
It doesn't matter. The entire thread was derailed because Nirvana stooped to get in an internet fight with Champi. Champi is a poster, Nirvana is an admin - there are different responsibilities on the two and different impacts to their actions. If Nirvana had simply not replied to an 'unconstructive' post, the entire situation would not have arisen as the later altercations were directed at him being a dick right back. It's his responsibility to manage the community, not start fights and encourage discontent.
Firstly, something like this shld have been done privately with the parties involved and perhaps a ''Meditator''(Sp?) via Skype or MSN Chat. Posting everything here with context being lifted and challenging each other to respond to taunts/questions is childish. It also influences the others who have barely know anything about the situation and cast a bad light on our community.
Secondly, as i am a member of aLt. I feel that my opinions would be heavily biased. As such, its pretty unfair if every TA member comes in here and defend Del/Point fingers at Bryan. I say we let the 2 grown ups settle this themselves instead of going around in circles.
Lastly, @ TA, u know i love u guys but picking on Bryan when most of you or rather us dont know the whole story is unfair. Saying he quit his job to focus on the site is an understatement, he didnt have time to practise for his WCG because he was so busy with it! Do u guys know that he stayed up through most nights to plan out a format for SEACL that would pleases everyone, and if i might add, TA especially?
@Deth, i was one of the first ones who expressed disappointment in you and pinder being banned from the tournament. I was looking forward to playing against the best players in SEA and i certainly consider you and pinder amongst it.
Somehow, i feel that if the first step u have taken was to go up to Bryan and apologize for being a douchebag, which i feel that you were every so slightly(Biased obviously=P), all this drama would not have happened.
Finally! Lets all have a good tournament, im very excited about it and REALLY hope everything gets resolves.
On January 08 2012 08:15 Shortizz wrote: This is farking retarded.
Firstly, something like this shld have been done privately with the parties involved and perhaps a ''Meditator''(Sp?) via Skype or MSN Chat. Posting everything here with context being lifted and challenging each other to respond to taunts/questions is childish. It also influences the others who have barely know anything about the situation and cast a bad light on our community.
Secondly, as i am a member of aLt. I feel that my opinions would be heavily biased. As such, its pretty unfair if every TA member comes in here and defend Del/Point fingers at Bryan. I say we let the 2 grown ups settle this themselves instead of going around in circles.
Lastly, @ TA, u know i love u guys but picking on Bryan when most of you or rather us dont know the whole story is unfair. Saying he quit his job to focus on the site is an understatement, he didnt have time to practise for his WCG because he was so busy with it! Do u guys know that he stayed up through most nights to plan out a format for SEACL that would pleases everyone, and if i might add, TA especially?
@Deth, i was one of the first ones who expressed disappointment in you and pinder being banned from the tournament. I was looking forward to playing against the best players in SEA and i certainly consider you and pinder amongst it.
Somehow, i feel that if the first step u have taken was to go up to Bryan and apologize for being a douchebag, which i feel that you were every so slightly(Biased obviously=P), all this drama would not have happened.
Finally! Lets all have a good tournament, im very excited about it and REALLY hope everything gets resolves.
We have tried so many times to talk to him an resolve it via PM's and skype. Rossi, Myself, Maynarde, Richard, Dox and others have all tried to resolve this, but he is too stubborn to come to any resolution. He has blatantly shown all throughout the rest of the thread how this IS personal, his utter dislike for myself and TA, as well has continued posting his own bias and disingenuous bullshit.
The time has come to do something about it, and TL is like, literally the only avenue I could think of to actually have a community discussion about it. Sc2sea doesn't work, he just deletes everything and makes up stories. The chatbox on the site even doesn't work for the same reason. MSN doesn't work again, Its supposedly private and he doesn't have to act with any transparency.
I feel I have been significantly wronged here, so what can I do? This thread is certainly the only option for me to take in order to get a resolution I feel is positive for myself.
EDIT:@nirv Its also pretty funny that you point out rep trains when you have clan buddies and ur friends coming on here to back you up. Not a point you can really argue over tbh.
First of all, let me present myself in the context. I'm a MVP of sc2sea and I'm quite close to a big part of the administration team of the site and other MVP. I'm also have very good relations with the majority of the TA members, especially Riichard, Edge, Chadmann but others too (dippa, Del, Miles etc.). But you can definitely put me in Nirvana "buddies" and I'm so proud of it.
I have no relations with Deth since he he scarcely post on the forum of sc2sea. Being French myself and living in France, I don't have IRL relations with people actually in SEA, so I don't know him at all.
Let's begin by talking of this wonderful community around sc2sea because I have the occasion. I don't put it in spoilers because it's the most important part of my message.
I play sc2, for a bit more of 1 year, for fun, as the majority of players, without any intention of building real skill because it's hopeless with the time I have for that. I discovered sc2sea by chance 6 months ago. I had no reason to go there since I'm at the other side of the word. What i discovered there was far more than a forum, far more than a site, it was a community. A community with people helping each other, Grand Master players taking from their time to help bronzies every day, with friendship between people and so within the most multicultural and multi-ethnic region of Battle.net (SC2). I begun by lurking as for so many forums then helping Bronze player myself. I got encouraged by the Administration team and quickly found myself passing all my free time at reading stuff there and posting crazy Replay Analysis nearly every 2 days for people from Bronze to Grand Master. I even coached several bronze and silver players from Singapore, Australia and ... England. Yes England, on sc2sea because that site has attracted people from everywhere, Canada, England, Azerbaidjan, Sueden, US, Peru, everywhere.
This because it's a wonderful site for sc2 players, the better in the word except Team Liquid forum (very different objectives). It is wonderful because there are a lot of people that work for other and dedicate their time to other. And the main engine of all that is Nirvana. There is no sc2sea, how it is today, without him. He have made an incredible job creating things and encouraging even nobodies like me to contribute according to their qualities.
So if you have to remember one thing, it's that sc2sea is an awesome place to be for SC2 players.
Now on the deth gate.
Deth, you don't like Nirvana and Nirvana don't like you in return. As you said, you give your opinions in very straightforward and not diplomatic manner and that drove to big clashes. Nirvana simply don't want to have to deal with you and this is shared by most of sc2sea staff and organizers. If they don't want you anymore, there's no reason why they would be forced into taking you in their tournaments or on their site.
Dox can still accept you in the tournament he makes, there's no problem with that and he and Nirvana will stay perfectly friend. Everyone do what he wants with his organization. I'm a Warhammer 40K tournament organizer. I can tell you that nobody will force me to take someone that has misconducted in my tournament or elsewhere.
If Kobe Bryan is caught dealing drug in a party, he would be banned by the NBA for a certain time, even if it's not stated in the rules : You're not allowed to deal drugs. You have to behave in a honorable way. I think you misconducted too much with Nirvana, being the head of the organizer team and head of SEACL. Don't tell me you have not, I was here. Downrepping him constantly was super aggressive. Downreps are rare on sc2sea and you have hammered him a lot with those. I also remember the post you made about the "10 ladder games with Nirvana". It was just mean and not constructive.
For me Deth you acted even more poorly in posting this thread here. I agree Nirvana stops too quickly discussions about moderation policies on sc2sea, but that was absolutely not a good reason to make such a drama here.
Why on Earth do you want to force him to take you back. The ONLY way was to be humble and accept to follow the rules and being a nice and contributive guy on sc2sea as Del has done when back from his own ban. Not doing that, you're acting as far more stubborn that him and you could deserve extension of your tournament ban. If I was in the shoes of Nirvana, I would definitely do it.
For God sake, you just have to amend and change your attitude on sc2sea.
For the others (because deth will remember it), when the drama first unraveled I posted this : + Show Spoiler +
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3088&highlight=SEACL&page=8 Well Nirvana (and a lot of people) vs TA again ... [Added now : in fact it's not TA in a whole but some people of TA, deth being one of the main] Last time it happened I told you [Nirvana] 2 things: First, never underestimate the support you have from 95% of the people here, the silent overwhelming majority. Whatever the subject, in the end of the day, it's the guy that has 400 threads on this forum, that writes tons of arguments in the discussion, organizes a ton of things, has done 80% of the replay analysis in TGM section, has written multiple blogs, has written most of the TGM Manual and maintained it, has started this site in the first place, has organized the T-Shirts printing, the sales of the Korean licenses, has done the advertising for the site, that has welcomed new people here (look in New to the forum thread), has been nice to everyone whatever his level and given 2nd and 3rd and 4rth and 5th ... and 10th chance to people even if they have offended him personally (Del), has encouraged all good initiatives here (how many guys like Frog or Maynarde or crAzerk or Pig would have done what they did here without you encouraging them permanently ?), and number of things I can't list here, it's that guy against people who only say "I don't like this".
People are silent but they are not stupid and know the difference between hard work done for the community and "cool attitude". I'm glad you finally understood it. That will give you enough self-confidence in this support to just brush aside destructive comments from a few and not overreact : "You don't like it but don't give arguments as to why?" "Be certain I'm very sad about it. Now let's go back to work." In other words "The dog barks, the Caravan just passes" (don't know if this proverb exists in English).
Secondly, I proposed to open a topic on "free speech" on SC2sea since that's the pretext some TA members were giving to attack you. That would allow the silent majority to express their opinion about it. TA guys taken individually are just normal people, not better or worse than any other. You find awesomely nice guys among them (Riichard, Edge <3 ) and great community builders too (Del - wait, what did I just say ? :D) and good people. But they have that painful habit of becoming bullies sometimes when they act as a group. Certain don't participate but there are always enough "followers of the Alpha males" or enough who defend blindly a member of the group that has received an ass kick, even deserved, that makes "TA" in a whole look like bullies. We all have experienced it and 90% of people not from TA (and I'm absolutely sure a large part of TA members too), don't like that at all. A thread putting things clearly on the table would allow people to tell them and could change things deeper than just banning every month some TA members when they cross the line. Frankly that chronic mini-war does no good to the community, we should solve it once and for all, and the only way to do that is putting the things on the table clearly. There is no community without you but there is no community without TA members too.
Now, Riichard, you're the boss of TA now, that's your job to make things right and to put an end to this war. They have elected you, now high time they listened to you.
[Added now : I was not listened on the second point again, that's, in my opinion, a mistake]
I'm trying to stay out of this as much as possible, but I'd just like to highlight the fact that people who have been banned from the official Blizzard/Battle.net forums are still able to play the game. I agree with this separation.
I'm trying to stay out of it too - but in light of growing the SEA community and growing eSports in our region, i must say that i love the idea of personality in the game, as Broodwar Pros had very little and now that SC2 has come along there are a lot more pros with beefs and issues with other players and it only makes the game more interesting.
The games would be much more exciting with the players in it and not just being banned for saying some stuff on the internet, yes it may have been bad, but did IdrA get banned from GSL saying things about other players? No. It only made those games more exciting.
Let's get past this and just play some damn games. Besides, knowing this story would be great for international spectators as they'd have more of a reason and cheer for a particular side and have an appeal to a story.
On a side note : Why are you both speaking to everyone as if their is a judge and you're on trial. Loosen up sort it out and most importantly Lets play some STARCRAFT!
Ahh.. the last three posts... where is the up-rep button on this site!?!?
Perhaps we need a nirvAnA v deth grudge match to determine the length of the ban?.. deth wins, he comes back halfway thru the league. deth loses, he misses out of the first half of the next SEACL also.
I personal don't appreciate the stigma being placed on TA members, as a member of that fine clan myself... TA is a really really big clan.. and many members frequent the teams Team Speak channel, when on that channel the team often discuss things that are happening on sc2sea.com - and that can probably explain the 'group/mob mentality' that is suggested, however its actually someone on Team Speak saying "ehh, this guy said this - I don't agree, what do you guys think?" then that turns into a few people posting their opinion of the post through the rep system... I would have thought that was what it was meant for. Although the TA members seem to be a lot more vocal about their opinions.
Also, comparing deth's blunt responses and portrayal of his own opinions to the racism and extreme negativity and trolling from AZKZiek (aka Zanooku, aka a million other accounts on sc2sea.com) is quite over the top. Regardless of who brought it up - no one anywhere that I've seen, deserves to be compared to Ziek, that guy went full retard, never go FULL retard.
But really, lets just move on and try and make this event as good as it can be. And deth and nirvAnA, I implore you to put this issue aside, compromise and apologise. Ban deth from playing in the first half of the event, or disallow him from playing in an Ace position.. What ever happens though, deth needs also to come back more positive and keep his opinions to himself and his clan mates. Rather than inflaming any bad blood between he and nirvAnA any further.
On January 08 2012 03:11 BakaInu wrote: I suggested for the rep system to be removed as well as it is quite abuseable, and it makes my life difficult. -BakaInu (Moderator, Tournament Admin for SC2SEA)
TL;DR: Disrespect us, we ban, then if you don't like it, run your own tournament.
It makes your life difficult? Poor you.
On January 08 2012 00:32 aLt)nirvana wrote: About deths "profiting from the community" comments:
sc2sea costs $305 to run every month. $175 for hosting and the rest for money for our community tournaments. For the first year the site was run with expenses coming out of my own pocket and time. Yes i do owe paying customers (The Strategy guide i wrote with glade) and people who buy TW keys a service, which i do perform extremely well as evidenced by the testimonials and i have explained this to deth. I introduced the shop partly so sc2sea could become sustainable and we could absorb all the running costs instead of having to depend on uncertain donations. But apart from these premium features everything else on the is free, and run on our own expense and time. The site alone by itself loses money every month without the shop. deth you have no idea how much the keys cost. Yes we make a small profit but ours are applied on a single page with the code, its different from the methods of other shops, its instant and you don't have to go through the mypoints system. Again you are making wild accusations.
What i refer to about the amount of money lost is in terms of opportunity cost. I easily put 4-5 hours a day on average, every day into sc2sea for the last 1 and a half years. My previous job earned me about $80 an hour. $80 x 550 days = 4hours x550days x 80 = $176,000. I have an honours degree in finance but the site was taking up so much of my time. He is taking everything out of context to portray me in the worse possible way.
On January 08 2012 12:04 ChadMann wrote: Ahh.. the last three posts... where is the up-rep button on this site!?!?
Perhaps we need a nirvAnA v deth grudge match to determine the length of the ban?.. deth wins, he comes back halfway thru the league. deth loses, he misses out of the first half of the next SEACL also.
I personal don't appreciate the stigma being placed on TA members, as a member of that fine clan myself... TA is a really really big clan.. and many members frequent the teams Team Speak channel, when on that channel the team often discuss things that are happening on sc2sea.com - and that can probably explain the 'group/mob mentality' that is suggested, however its actually someone on Team Speak saying "ehh, this guy said this - I don't agree, what do you guys think?" then that turns into a few people posting their opinion of the post through the rep system... I would have thought that was what it was meant for. Although the TA members seem to be a lot more vocal about their opinions.
Also, comparing deth's blunt responses and portrayal of his own opinions to the racism and extreme negativity and trolling from AZKZiek (aka Zanooku, aka a million other accounts on sc2sea.com) is quite over the top. Regardless of who brought it up - no one anywhere that I've seen, deserves to be compared to Ziek, that guy went full retard, never go FULL retard.
But really, lets just move on and try and make this event as good as it can be. And deth and nirvAnA, I implore you to put this issue aside, compromise and apologise. Ban deth from playing in the first half of the event, or disallow him from playing in an Ace position.. What ever happens though, deth needs also to come back more positive and keep his opinions to himself and his clan mates. Rather than inflaming any bad blood between he and nirvAnA any further.
TA are a great bunch of guys, and i'd like to think a largely respected clan, who have a great history.
Sc2sea is the premier community site of SEA, hosting many events for all leagues and level of players, as well as additional features many have mentioned, coaching, streaming, articles, chat, games, etc. Many people love the site and what it provides, and i'd like to think support the team who do a lot of work in the background out of their own time and often money.
It is a shame Deth won't be playing in CL#2. He's one of my favourite players to watch, both online and at lan. However, i understand nirvana's reasoning for the ban from this event. It's not the first time Deth has been banned from sc2sea, whatever the reasons, and given that CL#2 is run through and organised there, the decision falls upon the nirvana/admin team and sponsors. Same would apply if a tournament was run through TL i'd assume.
Hopefully we can see Deth in CL#3.
Not sure what posting here was meant to achieve? Don't think there was likely to be a positive outcome for himself, or the SEA scene/CL#2 dragging up conversations between people, which probably should have remained private. Hopefully both parties put this behind them, and we can all watch some quality matches in CL#2!
ZanooKu here, time to weigh in (My other account here is banned because of a comment I made stating females are making it into pro teams when there is more deserving players out there, go figure...)
First of all, it may come to a shock to everyone, but I'm going to provide an unbiased opinion (I don't get along with SC2SEA, or deth, or even TA, hell even most of SEA, suprise suprise) over this matter.
First things first, the tournament organisers simply cannot ban deth from the tournament. They don't OWN SEA (South East Asia), so they cannot brand it THE SEA tournament (If anything, they'd have to call it the SC2SEACL to get away with it from a legal stance if they wanted to exclude deth).
The administration team on SC2SEA is garbage, absolute garbage. They introduce features like a repuation system, honestly, who incorporates such a feature for something aimed at pre-adolescent children?
Time and time again I have spoken to Nirvana about his "rep" system, and how he used it to justify bans "People don't like you so you're banned" (not in those exact words, but basically the message he had portrayed). Who cares if the opinions were legitimate and people just didn't like the person? right? So when I registered another account under a different alias and negative repped some comments that were truly justified, the friends of those users "anti-repped" the comments to counteract any kind of "negative number". That in itself shows how useless it is.
As much as I dislike the majority of the TA group (EdgE/Voices are excluded, they're actually good at this game), I believe some of their actions are justified, but were still a little overboard. Special shoutout to ChadMann for being the biggest retard I've ever met.
Back to SC2SEA and Nirvana. Many moons ago I led a SEA team (rLs), which I was not allowed to play for in the first tournament for teams based on the fact that I was banned. This was LONG before there was any major threats, or any "racial" slurs (If you ask me, racism is just another insult that is no more harmful than calling them fat or a faggot, it's the garbage morals people live by rather than the context of the actual word). I was given no leniancy, which I thought was wrong. If SC2SEA want to carry out those rules and not "back down or go back on their rules", then they have no choice to keep Deth banned (even though I believe they shouldn't).
Nirvana is the kind of person who will do what he can to get what he wants at anyone elses expense. As it was stated before, SC2SEA basically holds the monopoly of SC2 tournaments, but that could very, very easily change. If the members of SC2SEA (the bigger clans like nGen, TA, etc and all of their friends were to leave your garbage website and start a new one, you would slowly crumble and there would be nothing left. You owe everything you have to them.)
You will owe me an apology if you decide to allow Deth to play (which at this state looks unlikely).
Btw nirvana, (irrelevant information now) why u no gg when u lose to me u scrub?
I would also like to point out that this tournament isn't even funded by SC2SEA. As written in the OP,
A big shoutout to iAustralia Sharn "JoFritzMD" Kemp
He came up with the initiative to sponsor a series of tournaments to further the eSports community in Australia. I've asked him to extend this to the whole of SEA, which the Oceania region forms the majority, and he kindly accepted. As such, over the next 2 months, we will see the return of the SEACL with approximately $750 in total prizes up for grabs! $500 in cash is sponsored by JoFritzMD and $250 in product prizes will be sponsored by sc2sea.com. You can learn more about the generous JoFritzMD by reading his TL blogs over
All the cash is put up by jofritzmd, and the product prizes would have likely cost sc2sea nothing. If this was an actual sc2sea tournament I could handle a ban (co, masters cup), but its a SEA wide league, not paid for by the site.
I would appreciate people to recognise this.
EDIT: The fact that nirvana is using a tournament sponsored by an independant 3rd party whom wanted to further Australian esports in order to punish me for being critical and blunt is disgusting.
I can't believe there's such a long thread about two people being a dick to a tournament organised, getting banned by said organiser and then bitching and moaning..
On January 08 2012 14:18 SnuCtups wrote: Special shoutout to ChadMann for being the biggest retard I've ever met.
Lucky for you, we've actually never met. Zanooku, I respect that you give no shits about what anyone else thinks about you or what you say. But your a bm, racist, narrow minded troll. You've been banned indefinitely for your actions against sc2sea.com and the SEA community. deth has not caused nearly half the up-roar, negativity or personal insults you have. Your the king of that one, mate.
Regardless of how retarded Ziek is.. lets all just move on and try and have a fun, exciting and competitive SEACL. This thread has been derailed long enough.
On January 08 2012 14:26 deth wrote:
All the cash is put up by jofritzmd, and the product prizes would have likely cost sc2sea nothing. If this was an actual sc2sea tournament I could handle a ban (co, masters cup), but its a SEA wide league, not paid for by the site.
I would appreciate people to recognise this.
EDIT: The fact that nirvana is using a tournament sponsored by an independant 3rd party whom wanted to further Australian esports in order to punish me for being critical and blunt is disgusting.
On January 08 2012 14:18 SnuCtups wrote: Special shoutout to ChadMann for being the biggest retard I've ever met.
Woah let me stop you right there buddy, that there is called cyber bullying and as a former cyber bully victim I will not tolerate it. Please apologise to ChadMann for he is a gentleman, a scholar, a proud homeowner and a family man.
It always sucks when a top SEA player can't be allowed to an event.
After reading everything, I can kinda see what happened. Deth: cos you are young you prob dont know. Nirvana doesn't give a shit about you (in reference to 'personal vendetta against me'). Trust me, noone cares about people stirring shit if they are 10 years younger than you. Anything he has done against you would have been done to anybody else. Failing to see this means that you need to think about it a little more.
I know you told me before this incident that you don't like nirvana because he is biased (don't remember about what). If you think about it, Nirvana built the site from scratch, created a SEA version of TL, and from my knowledge has spent a lot of his effort and time in improving things for the community. In my honest opinion, and if you weren't emotionally involved in this, you can see that he can do whatever the fuck he wants to do. If people weren't happy with what his 'whatever the fuck he wants to do', sc2sea.com would not be where it is now. If people don't like it they shouldn't use it, its a simple fact of life lol. If I owned a site, I don't think I would have ever banned someone 7 times. I'm pretty sure 2 warnings to anyone is enough; then id get rid of them permanently. In fact, I think giving 7 chances is not very smart (looking at it from the outside); it is ineffective and inefficient to waste time like that.
'"yea nirvana cant handle people using the rep system to express themselves". This deserves a ban. It isn't freedom of speech, it is more an attack on somebody. Everybody will be able to see this. So the only issue is the ban on SEACL. Well I'll save you some time; forget this post and talk with nirvana and his admin friends for SEACL. From what I hear some admins have different views, so your only chance is to convince them. Trust me, I know you think posting something like this will hurt his rep (and i know that this was your foremost priority in this post), but it just makes us SEA gamers the laughing stock of the world lol. I'm assuming you are smart enough to know what im talking about yeah? Ooorrrrr, you can keep trying to waste your efforts on this, and try hurt the reputation of a guy half way around the world thats a decade your senior (which i told ya wont happen. noone gives a shit about younger people (in terms of trouble)).
something that pops up though is that TA supported the banning of zan from the site AND tournaments, which was due to him being a repeat offender. You are also are repeat offender, so you shuold be arguing against bryan and other admins that the level of your crimes are not as harsh as his (prob your best shot - point to the racism). or you can think im wrong once again and try whatever else. GL man.
When idra was banned from TL.net would he have been banned from TSL or any other TL event too? If a mod would answer it would be great, just curious....
I know that people who broke rules from TSL 2 were denied in TSL 3, despite it being a completely different game (Dimaga comes to mind).
I would like to echo YoonYJ's sentiments. This is basically what I'm trying to tell you deth. Getting mad and posting bullshit like this is just spiteful and doesn't get you or nirvana anywhere. It's unconstructive.
Also, LOL at zanooku thinking his opinion is worth anything to a community which rightfully ostracized him from everything.
On January 08 2012 17:45 iaguz wrote: I know that people who broke rules from TSL 2 were denied in TSL 3, despite it being a completely different game (Dimaga comes to mind).
I would like to echo YoonYJ's sentiments. This is basically what I'm trying to tell you deth. Getting mad and posting bullshit like this is just spiteful and doesn't get you or nirvana anywhere. It's unconstructive.
Also, LOL at zanooku thinking his opinion is worth anything to a community which rightfully ostracized him from everything.
Im not getting mad, I've written everything and conducted myself with a clear head. I have tried being reasonable. I have given a sincere apology which was closed, posts deleted (including another admin on the site). 2 admins have tried to get nirvana to see reason, and many other mods and prominent community figures dont want to see me banned from the league.
The only way to actually have a constructive conversation is in a public forum where everyone can see it and not have nirvana do his usual tricks of deleting posts and shutting all critical comment down. That sort of stuff is what does get me angry, and what has gotten me the most angry in the past, along with him taking the reputation system so seriously.
This was my only avenue to do anything about his decision, in the light of other admins publicly disagreeing with him and his handling of the situation, he has been too thick-headed and stubborn to compromise. His response to my apology, claiming it was "half-hearted" along with all his other lies, then deleting rossis post, was the final straw. I felt it needed to come to light. Disagree with me all you want, but I think this is the only way a constructive outcome for me could be reached. Even if it didnt end up resulting in me being able to play (which is bullshit), at least the community at large knows whats going on here, and knows the full story.
Also the TSL bans were for win trading and hacking. Thats a terrible argument.
did i even mention zanooku at all? no, so why are you bringing it up?
Dippa, I did mate. Was just using his name as an example, if it clears things up use mine in place of his and the point is the same. There was no attempted comparison between Deth and Zanooku, it was bloody early in the morning and my brain was strained enough having to construct previous posts.
Secondly, as i am a member of aLt. I feel that my opinions would be heavily biased. As such, its pretty unfair if every TA member comes in here and defend Del/Point fingers at Bryan. I say we let the 2 grown ups settle this themselves instead of going around in circles.
I see Dippa, Deth, Chad and EdgE posting. 4/90 aint "every TA member" its a VAST minority.
This constant lumping of TA with bad rep due to issues people have had in the past and even present is total utter bullshit and you all know it. We're a damned big clan. We have a mixture of people with a mixture of viewpoints. Accept these individuals for their opinions and don't go "oh its TA again".
I haven't personally made a single aLt reference, so I expect you treat me with the same respect regarding my own clan.
N.B I find it funny you said Del instead of Deth. I physically laughed (in a good lighthearted manner due to the typo).
Lastly, @ TA, u know i love u guys but picking on Bryan when most of you or rather us dont know the whole story is unfair.
Bleh. Clan shit is back again! Remove "TA" and put "people with views alternate to that of nirvAnA" please as that is more accurate... or should I say, is accurate, where the comment directed to TA is misguided and incorrect.
As you said, you give your opinions in very straightforward and not diplomatic manner and that drove to big clashes. Nirvana simply don't want to have to deal with you and this is shared by most of sc2sea staff and organizers. If they don't want you anymore, there's no reason why they would be forced into taking you in their tournaments or on their site.
He sure does! If you could find it in your hearts to accept the man for who he is and how he voices his opinions and REALISE that his comments are NOT personal attacks then we wouldn't be in this situation. Alas, not everybody is able to read between the lines or understand the true language (and meaning) behind the words.
For me Deth you acted even more poorly in posting this thread here. I agree Nirvana stops too quickly discussions about moderation policies on sc2sea, but that was absolutely not a good reason to make such a drama here.
This is the only free forum left to discuss the matter and have your views heard, because as you so stated nirvAnA DOES stop discussions and as per aforementioned evidence DOES remove posts (tainting the flow and context of said discussion). Its censorship and its preventing the community from having a fair go.
Dox said: I'm trying to stay out of this as much as possible, but I'd just like to highlight the fact that people who have been banned from the official Blizzard/Battle.net forums are still able to play the game. I agree with this separation. This was exactly the point I was trying to make when I put my Zanooku hypothetical in a post. HERE HERE DOX!!!
First things first, the tournament organisers simply cannot ban deth from the tournament. They don't OWN SEA (South East Asia), so they cannot brand it THE SEA tournament (If anything, they'd have to call it the SC2SEACL to get away with it from a legal stance if they wanted to exclude deth). Holy hell I never thought I'd see eye-to-eye with Zanooku. If I had a rep system I'd +1 you for this sir!
I'm assuming you are smart enough to know what im talking about yeah? Ooorrrrr, you can keep trying to waste your efforts on this, and try hurt the reputation of a guy half way around the world thats a decade your senior (which i told ya wont happen. noone gives a shit about younger people (in terms of trouble)).
You take a dig at him for "attacking" someone and then do it right back? You sir are a hypocrite and should move the fuck along right now. Your views no longer have validity after that total dick move.
When idra was banned from TL.net would he have been banned from TSL or any other TL event too? If a mod would answer it would be great, just curious....
I know that people who broke rules from TSL 2 were denied in TSL 3, despite it being a completely different game (Dimaga comes to mind). Deth: TSL bans were for win trading and hacking. Thats a terrible argument.
So we ARE treating Deth's forum infringement as an equal offence to hacking?
Finally, do any of you people even claim to know Deth as well as you think you do? (does that even make sense? whatever... moving on)... For a guy like him to take the time and effort to write such an apology directed right at nirvAnA takes guts and it takes a massive shot to the pride. Deth is not a coward, Deth is not a pushover and Deth is certainly a very prideful person. I hope that entered your minds while you shrugged off his 'half-hearted apology'... but I guess it didn't.
Ultimately we're talking to closed minds here, you only wish to prove your own argument rather than address any of the concerns raised regarding it. I for one have asked many questions over the past three pages which have gone completely unanswered and as such I know you simply aren't listening (reading).
Its a shame I came into this hoping we could freely discuss the issue and reach a concession / compromise / outcome that isn't woefully unjust, but it seems I've been wasting my time. My heart actually sank to have to endure this and AS A PERSON NOT A FUCKING CLAN MEMBER it's also feeling for Deth right now. The "kid" (as Yoon would paint him) really did get the raw end of the stick here.
P.S - Yoon, what the hell? People younger than you having an opinion is not allowed? Where I live we value all people's opinions not just those of the village elders! (*No, not racism. Its a way of saying "older people". Felt I should clarify that given people's evident lack of ability to glean the true meaning of what is written, as proven by Deth's ban.)
Build a bridge, and move on.. No more posts about this shit, please. Unless you have something constructive to add or discussion about the SEACL I think the deth drama has come to an end... I don't think nirvAnA's decision is going to be swayed. The ban is set. And deth has spoken his peace and left the issues in the public domain for all to see. I say that nothing more can be added. deth will have to serve out his ban this season (fair or not - its irrelevant) and then, help lead TA to their Third consecutive SEACL title in a row next season.. :D
However, Pinder - first offence, first ban?... does he get a second chance?... WHAT ABOUT PINDER!!
Yoon.. you win... any time someone wants to write more.. they will get distracted by the boobies... But my like was referring to 'Building a bridge - and get over it'
what i mean is that older people dont care when younger people start shit. thought i clarified this clearly.
Us young-uns and our opinions... I remember the day when the milkman used to come, and the horse-and-kart would remove fecal matter from the thunderbox...
Maybe you old farts should start to care because heres the real kicker... there exist things called "sexism", "racism" and "ageism". All are forms of discrimination... Clearly as you're against discrimination yourself being a level-headed person you do not support ageism? Goodo! =)
I don't think nirvAnA's decision is going to be swayed.
omg....what i mean is that older people dont care when younger people try to cause trouble. nothing to do with opinion man. think about it, if you had a guy 10 years younger than you saying some stuff to cause trouble (NOT JUST STATING HIS OPINION), what would you think lol ?
On January 08 2012 19:45 YoonYJ wrote: omg....what i mean is that older people dont care when younger people try to cause trouble. nothing to do with opinion man. think about it, if you had a guy 10 years younger than you saying some stuff to cause trouble, what would you think lol ?
yyj, you're a great guy but this argument literally makes no sense.
what i mean deth, is that if you were to disagree with him politely that is fine. what older people dont care about is when young people start saying shit that is agressive and emotional. i dont know how you spoke to him in regards to the tournament, but from looking at your post i can see you are being aggressive. doesnt matter what the situation is, but i was telling you how posting something like that goes nowhere (like iaguz said) and it doesnt affect him. its like if a 10 year old kid tried to start a fight or argument with me.
Sharn Kemp SEA Premier League Week 1 Game1: MLG Taldarim Altar Game2: MLG Metalopolis Game3: MLG The Shattered Temple Game4: MLG Shakuras Plateau Ace match: GSL Daybreak + Show Spoiler [map pool loser picks no veto] +
MLG Taldarim Altar, MLG Metalopolis, MLG Shakuras Plateau, GSL Antiga Shipyard, GSL Daybreak, MLG The Shattered Temple, GSL Dual Sight
Tuesday 17th January 2012
8.00PM AEDT :aLt VS xGking - www.twitch.tv/benjisc2 The runners up from last season ALT, ready for a big second season where they plan to go one step further and claim victory, will face the recently formed powerhouse team xgking. Which could kick of there first SEACL with a nice victory over ALT and with a powerful lineup including new recruits myuu bliesko and pokerface they have the talent to do it.
8.00PM AEDT :SPR VS ]inFi Two teams with darkhorse lineups. One because of the unknown Korean influence and one due to the loss of key ace players. Will defiantly be interesting to see who bolts out the gate first in this 2 horse race for week one bragging rights.
8.00PM AEDT :ToT VS EvE They may not be well know but ToT aims to make you realize there true potential as they enter there first SEACL. EVE on the other hand wants to continue there standard of highly competitive matches and series will they send ToT back to the drawing board or will we start moving ToT from unknown to scary.
Thursday 19th January 2012
8.00PM AEDT :Mski VS MiTH Thailand vs Philipines. The two most established teams in that region facing off. Truly a series to watch. And its only the first week. There will be no love lost as everyone wants that 1 in there win columns.
8.00PM AEDT :Herocraft VS TA - www.twitch.tv/benjisc2 Can a team formed of SEA most established stars and there selected stars take out the longest running SC2 Clan in Australia? We will find out after we witness this epic series and it will be epic.All Drama aside its time to see what we came for the best SC2 SEA has to offer.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZlYPr.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ar4uI.png)
Tier 1: Sharn Kemp SEA Premier League![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LvL7D.png)
Tier 2: SC2SEA Championship League![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cccdY.png)
Tier 3: SC2SEA League 1![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LR5Z7.png)
Tier 4: SC2SEA League 1![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QxJ4J.png)
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