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On December 24 2011 01:13 Dauntless wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 01:05 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man. Hero wouldn't be in Up-and-Downs if he was so magically proficient in BO3s. If he didn't do that hasty timing push against July he would probably be Code S. Magically... lol. I might be wrong, but I think he was suffering from jet lag when he was playing his matches vs asd. And my statement still stands, I think he'd win a bo3 vs both July and JYP, just because he's a better player, and anyone can win a bo1.
Debatable. Plus, even if Hero is a better overall player, he certainly isn't a better PvP player than JYP. So bo1, bo3, bo 50 million, it doesn't really matter.
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On December 24 2011 01:15 devPLEASE wrote:
Anyone know how many SlayerS are in Code S now?
My count says 6: MMA, GanZi, Puzzle, Brown, BoxeR, Yugioh.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 24 2011 01:13 Dauntless wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 01:05 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man. Hero wouldn't be in Up-and-Downs if he was so magically proficient in BO3s. If he didn't do that hasty timing push against July he would probably be Code S. Magically... lol. I might be wrong, but I think he was suffering from jet lag when he was playing his matches vs asd. And my statement still stands, I think he'd win a bo3 vs both July and JYP, just because he's a better player, and anyone can win a bo1.
He got tricked by asd's opener and prepared for a 1-1-1 which never came. There's no way to say whether Hero is better than them based off playing worse competition.
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On December 24 2011 00:09 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 23:37 SeaSwift wrote:On December 23 2011 23:28 Eppa! wrote:On December 23 2011 23:25 awesomoecalypse wrote:Parting probably has the best PvT of all toss players. Sage probably has the best PvZ (at least in practice). Out of all protoss players he probably has the best chance of winning codeS. uh, MC? It's look like he's got his form back lately, and MC on his game is definitely still one of the most dangerous players in the world. I realize his "just go fucking kill the opponent" style isn't as flashy as Hero's ludicrous multitask, but damn if it isn't effective when paired with MC-level timing and mechanics. MCs PvZ isn't very good though. He the sort of player that can beat any player but his style brings a lot of variance. Since the first poster quoted said "in practice" to justify Sage's PvZ, I think it's also safe to use MC's practice here. Stephano showed on his stream that MC is just on another level, especially in practice. MC has also said that he is more confident in PvZ, because he has "figured it out". Then, DRG said in the BlizzCup interviews after he beat MC that he expected MC to win the whole thing. That considered, and after watching Oz's atrocious PvZ vs Curious (considering Oz is the closest contender to Protoss King), I think it's safe to say that MC still is the best at PvZ. MC did not have very good PvZ a short time ago. But the boss is back. /fanboy EDIT: And the poster first quoted said something about Parting having the best PvT. Considering we've seen a total of 2 PvTs with him vs other pro Terrans in which he won (and one was against TOP...), I don't think he can be considered truly up there. As far as PvT goes, MC has always been at the top, although Oz is also pretty damn high too. MC has some sick fanboys lol. His PvZ has been woeful for ages, is barely 50% in Korea, he'll need to do a lot more to convince me he has the best PvZ in Korea, although he obviously is playing better lately.
NONE of the protoss players are consistent in korea in pvz. absolutely none.
the so called best protosses in the world: huk has an overall 50%, destroyed by code a or below players frequently in the tlpd.
hero, the "pvz sniper" has an atrocious record in pvz in korea.
Sage has 57% but he has wins from players like Naya or Shinefou who are unknown and his record is not representetive enough.
from the records it seems like actually JYP has the most impressive pvz results, but a lot of his wins are from lesser players and from a longer time ago, he hasn't really proven himself vs the best zvp players (bar drg), cuz 4 months ago he beat drg 2-1 (but then he also lost to him 1-2 a little earlier)
MC has had problems with pvz everyone knows- but recently he beat leenock, he lost to a close series to drg where he went 2base carriers at one game, and he would have won it 2-1 had it been a bo3, he beat leenock easily, who manhandled naniwa and huk recently.
i mean there is no real evidence who has the best pvz in the world, so it's not really "sick fanboyism" to call MC the best since all we can do is assumptions and MC is still the best toss overall result wise, his mechanics are probably the best, and is doing pretty damn well lately, at least a lot better than huk or naniwa...
then there is Genius, who won his group 4-0 but i remember 2 gsls ago he played the stupidest games in gsl history... too inconsistent, but is a competitor for the best spot on his best day.
and there is Oz, who got pretty far in the gsl but isn't that good result-wise, his pvz is fairly unproven all we know he lost to curious 4-0 a month ago.
and we have brown, parting etc these newer guys that we know nothing about, can't base anything on 2 games played.
so, overall it's not sick fanboyism at all to say MC is the best. there is no clear best, like MVP of terran, but MC is certainly the strongest competitor. if you think his pvz is woeful, check out the others' stats, they're just as woeful bar JYP's who hasn't played much. and MC had good results vs two top3 zergs lately in best of 5's.
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On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man.
This guy conveniently forgot that Hero has been playing in the GSL for over a year in Korea and never got far in Code A or reached Code S. There's a pattern of denial here where Hero is "one of the best" despite always being eliminated by any number of random Korean pros.
There are plenty of Protosses better than Hero in Korea. They just never got the chance to fly overseas and roflstomp foreigners. Any of these guys would replicate if not best Hero's overseas feats: Oz, Killer, JYP, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Creator, Tassadar, etc. It's called being the big fish in a small pond.
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The Liquid bias runs strong in these ones, vnlegend.
This is TL, after all. Not to mention that Hero has a very cute, viewer friendly style. I'm not surprised he's consistently seen as one of the best without showing the results.
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The way the brackets played out is unfortunate, he lost versus the one key person in a volatile matchup and that is all it takes to lose code S. 
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Aww I was hoping for July and HerO. Yugioh was a bit of a surprise though. I'm just glad Clide didn't make it through.
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On December 24 2011 02:28 vnlegend wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man. This guy conveniently forgot that Hero has been playing in the GSL for over a year in Korea and never got far in Code A or reached Code S. There's a pattern of denial here where Hero is "one of the best" despite always being eliminated by any number of random Korean pros. There are plenty of Protosses better than Hero in Korea. They just never got the chance to fly overseas and roflstomp foreigners. Any of these guys would replicate if not best Hero's overseas feats: Oz, Killer, JYP, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Creator, Tassadar, etc. It's called being the big fish in a small pond.
Agree that there is a lot of pro-HerO bias on TL, but come on man. Killer has been to plenty of foreign tournaments (mainly IEM) and frequently underperforms against foreigners as well. JYP has an absolutely atrocious PvT which means he will never get far in the GSL. Puzzle has shown flashes, but is woefully inconsistent. Sage is like Puzzle. Genius has shown nothing for over a year (until yesterday). Creator has had one good series. Tassadar is a cheesy scrub.
The fact is, there are NO consistent Protosses, in Korea or anywhere else. The same could be said for Zerg now that NesTea has been proven mortal. Really the only consistent player, anywhere, is MVP, with an argument to be made for MMA.
Half of those players you listed would have been stomped at Dreamhack, which is HerO's one real accomplishment.
EDIT: Forgot about Oz who is new blood but the most promising of all those guys you listed. I want to see what he does over the next few months.
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On December 23 2011 22:55 wklbishop wrote:
2012...
I would say I expect to see Creator coming right up like the way Leenock just randomly won MLG. The kid has some sick potential.
Totally agree, those who start young and have proven that they have the talent to be somewhat competitive now, have the highest potential in future to reach a level on one has seen yet.
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On December 23 2011 22:03 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 22:02 Drazerk wrote:Sad for July / Hero Glad for Yugioh however, he deserves code S. Now please MMA please don't kill him Hopefully MMA won't be a scumbag and choose his teammate. You know, again.
I see that people are still spreading this misunderstanding around..
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Wow  JYP .... he'd be a bonjwa if it were not for his PvT. 70% in the other matchups, wow. (ducks)
Well, not really, but congrats to JYP, and Yugioh, who is back in code S. Slowly but surely, he'll inch up and win the whole thing, muahaha.
On December 24 2011 03:24 ZasZ. wrote:
The fact is, there are NO consistent Protosses, in Korea or anywhere else. The same could be said for Zerg now that NesTea has been proven mortal. Really the only consistent player, anywhere, is MVP, with an argument to be made for MMA.
Don't be a negative Nancy. If winning multiple GSLs is your definition of consistent, there'd only be 2 consistent players of each race maximum. It's too bad HongUn's out of the GSL now, since he had 2 Ro4 and 2 Ro8 finishes. I'd say that's consistent.
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United States97276 Posts
On December 24 2011 03:29 andrea20 wrote:Wow JYP .... he'd be a bonjwa if it were not for his PvT. 70% in the other matchups, wow. (ducks) Well, not really, but congrats to JYP, and Yugioh, who is back in code S. Slowly but surely, he'll inch up and win the whole thing, muahaha. Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 03:24 ZasZ. wrote:
The fact is, there are NO consistent Protosses, in Korea or anywhere else. The same could be said for Zerg now that NesTea has been proven mortal. Really the only consistent player, anywhere, is MVP, with an argument to be made for MMA. Don't be a negative Nancy. If winning multiple GSLs is your definition of consistent, there'd only be 2 consistent players of each race maximum. It's too bad HongUn's out of the GSL now, since he had 2 Ro4 and 2 Ro8 finishes. I'd say that's consistent.
too bad vT is the matchup that probably matters the most with 15 terrans in code S next season >.<
Congrats to yugioh and JYP for advancing to code S. Best of luck
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Northern Ireland26740 Posts
On December 24 2011 02:28 vnlegend wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man. This guy conveniently forgot that Hero has been playing in the GSL for over a year in Korea and never got far in Code A or reached Code S. There's a pattern of denial here where Hero is "one of the best" despite always being eliminated by any number of random Korean pros. There are plenty of Protosses better than Hero in Korea. They just never got the chance to fly overseas and roflstomp foreigners. Any of these guys would replicate if not best Hero's overseas feats: Oz, Killer, JYP, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Creator, Tassadar, etc. It's called being the big fish in a small pond. There's a difference between saying 'player x is better than player y' and saying that player x isn't 'on that level' though
I would totally accept the argument that Hero is a foreign tournament stomper and nothing more if the foreign tournaments didn't have other (often Code S) Koreans in them. As they do, and he shows pretty decent results vs these other Koreans at foreign events it's kind of a mystery why he doesn't play at that standard when he returns to Korea. I doubt it's the frequently mentioned nerves issue, as surely you'd be more nervous being out of your home country competing in events where most people don't speak your language?
On a personal level my liking for Hero is based on his playstyle, namely a PvZ approach that looks less reliant on doing stupid 2 base all-ins and rewards good mechanics and control, plus it's fun to watch!
Don't like the frequency of bo1 series in GSL either, but that has nothing to do with the players who did or didn't make it through up and downs.
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On December 24 2011 04:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 02:28 vnlegend wrote:On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man. This guy conveniently forgot that Hero has been playing in the GSL for over a year in Korea and never got far in Code A or reached Code S. There's a pattern of denial here where Hero is "one of the best" despite always being eliminated by any number of random Korean pros. There are plenty of Protosses better than Hero in Korea. They just never got the chance to fly overseas and roflstomp foreigners. Any of these guys would replicate if not best Hero's overseas feats: Oz, Killer, JYP, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Creator, Tassadar, etc. It's called being the big fish in a small pond. There's a difference between saying 'player x is better than player y' and saying that player x isn't 'on that level' though I would totally accept the argument that Hero is a foreign tournament stomper and nothing more if the foreign tournaments didn't have other (often Code S) Koreans in them. As they do, and he shows pretty decent results vs these other Koreans at foreign events it's kind of a mystery why he doesn't play at that standard when he returns to Korea. I doubt it's the frequently mentioned nerves issue, as surely you'd be more nervous being out of your home country competing in events where most people don't speak your language? On a personal level my liking for Hero is based on his playstyle, namely a PvZ approach that looks less reliant on doing stupid 2 base all-ins and rewards good mechanics and control, plus it's fun to watch! Don't like the frequency of bo1 series in GSL either, but that has nothing to do with the players who did or didn't make it through up and downs.
What Koreans did he show decent results against that tell you losing in the up/downs and Code A is below his standard?
Puzzle and Keen are like the only Code S Koreans he beat recently. I think his GSL results matches his Foreign tournament results pretty well. Good enough to stomp on some foreigners, maybe beat a Code S player every now and then, but in general Code A level results.
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On December 24 2011 04:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 02:28 vnlegend wrote:On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man. This guy conveniently forgot that Hero has been playing in the GSL for over a year in Korea and never got far in Code A or reached Code S. There's a pattern of denial here where Hero is "one of the best" despite always being eliminated by any number of random Korean pros. There are plenty of Protosses better than Hero in Korea. They just never got the chance to fly overseas and roflstomp foreigners. Any of these guys would replicate if not best Hero's overseas feats: Oz, Killer, JYP, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Creator, Tassadar, etc. It's called being the big fish in a small pond. There's a difference between saying 'player x is better than player y' and saying that player x isn't 'on that level' though I would totally accept the argument that Hero is a foreign tournament stomper and nothing more if the foreign tournaments didn't have other (often Code S) Koreans in them. As they do, and he shows pretty decent results vs these other Koreans at foreign events it's kind of a mystery why he doesn't play at that standard when he returns to Korea. I doubt it's the frequently mentioned nerves issue, as surely you'd be more nervous being out of your home country competing in events where most people don't speak your language? On a personal level my liking for Hero is based on his playstyle, namely a PvZ approach that looks less reliant on doing stupid 2 base all-ins and rewards good mechanics and control, plus it's fun to watch! Don't like the frequency of bo1 series in GSL either, but that has nothing to do with the players who did or didn't make it through up and downs.
you got carried away. he beat keen, and puzzle and boxer and huk and that's it, arguments could easily be made why that record is not that awesome if you cosider that he lost much more to koreans than he won... also idra, gatored, thorzain and some other foreigners beat as many koreans as hero too, you don't rly see people considering them a code level players (anyone sane at least).
an unknown fxo/slayers/etc player who can't get into code a would win just as much in foregner tournys as hero, think about inori for example. it has nothing to do with nerves. hero is not code s level. he might get in if he gets lucky with the brackets... but there are way too many players who are better than him.
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Guys, let's not forget that most of the pro Korean can and will take games of each other... Actually, it is like other sports... Even some dominate teams will lose to weaker teams on any given night...
Take MVP for example, he is probably the most consistent player. But if you look closingly at his Korean WCG run, he needed Happy to 3-0 his group so he got into 3 way tie with MC and Taeja whom he beat in the tie breaker. And then he went 2-1 vs AnnyYeong, Supernova, MKP... any tiny mistake in another game and he wouldn't even have had a chance to go to WCG...
As fans, we would like to have Bo5s, Bo7s but I think for Bo3, who ever wins the first game has like 70%+ win rate anyways... Some people say there is less cheese in Bo3. But honestly, it is rare to see 'special' cheese anyways. Most of the cheese are standard and players should be expecting them. And if they can't stop them in first game, they have same chance of dying to them in the second or third (stuff like Inca DTs, Polt and LoSirA should have been prepared)
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On December 24 2011 04:37 vthree wrote:
Guys, let's not forget that most of the pro Korean can and will take games of each other... Actually, it is like other sports... Even some dominate teams will lose to weaker teams on any given night...
Take MVP for example, he is probably the most consistent player. But if you look closingly at his Korean WCG run, he needed Happy to 3-0 his group so he got into 3 way tie with MC and Taeja whom he beat in the tie breaker. And then he went 2-1 vs AnnyYeong, Supernova, MKP... any tiny mistake in another game and he wouldn't even have had a chance to go to WCG...
As fans, we would like to have Bo5s, Bo7s but I think for Bo3, who ever wins the first game has like 70%+ win rate anyways... Some people say there is less cheese in Bo3. But honestly, it is rare to see 'special' cheese anyways. Most of the cheese are standard and players should be expecting them. And if they can't stop them in first game, they have same chance of dying to them in the second or third (stuff like Inca DTs, Polt and LoSirA should have been prepared)
these high level players tend to rely on their awesome scouting abilities and sometimes don't counter easily counterable stuff blindly. i regularly see code s/a level players don't put down detection, anti air, bunkers, etc and die to some hidden tech or rush if their scouting fails.
while on the other hand if you defend blindly you'll be in a slightly worse spot if the rush/cheese doesn't come. but i favor to do that when i play
example: naniwa sends 2-3 scouting probes to leenock's base, leenock kills them with lings/queen before they see the roach warren, leenock doesn't let naniwa to the xel'naga tower. half a minute later naniwa dies with his 1 cannon vs 7 roaches- this kinda stuff happens too often. with 3 well placed cannons he would've been fine and he had everything to build the defense
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Well, to be fair, it is easy to come up with building the correct things when we the viewers get to see both sides.
But building too much defense means you have a smaller army or tech and it makes taking and holding the next expansion so hard... So in a way, you die a slower death... So you are right, players have to scout or take blind risk.. Because if you try to be safe against everything, you will be way behind, especially if you opponent goes for a greedy build. Of couse, sometimes players do make bad decisions, but I think a lot of times, they are taking a calculated risk and sometimes they don't pay off...
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Hah take that fanboys LOL :D
good to see the underdogs winning
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EPT
