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On October 01 2011 18:53 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 18:37 Azarkon wrote:
I think people don't give enough credit to the meta-game changes that come with international tournaments.
JYP played safe/different in these games because he doesn't know what to expect from foreign players. By contrast, he knew what to expect from Korean Zergs, and so he knew what corners he could cut, and what timings he needed to hit. Against foreign players, however, those expectations are out the window. I mean, who knows whether they're going to drone up or do something wtf like build thirty zerglings all of a sudden?
The same is probably true of XiGua. He looks like he's playing way out of his depth in terms of the strategies he's facing. Chinese players probably play very different from EU and KR players, leading him down some embarrassingly bad match-ups. But don't the top Chinese players practice on the Korean server? Furthermore, there's not just stylistic differences between Korea and the EU. That might be true, but mostly Korea is further ahead on strategic development and has builds that are simply better, as in: more safe. A person using those builds should be prepared for pretty much all outdated styles, unless he just forgot how to deal with them.
Yea although i agree with him that it may be the reason why JYP was playing so strangely, i dont think that it was the right decision for JYP. I dont think Korean players where super well versed in the North american meta game when they started coming over to MLG's and getting to 5-6 all koreans. JYP should have stuck to his guns , he would have done alot better.
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On October 01 2011 18:52 JKira wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 18:39 2shellbonus wrote:On October 01 2011 18:35 Executor1 wrote:On October 01 2011 18:31 MarKeD wrote:
Dimaga did pretty damn strongly when he played in that Korean tournament awhile back, I can't remember exactly who he beat, but at the time he was taking out top Korean players. Shouldn't be too big a surprise he can beat JYP. He was the first person to beat Nestea ZVZ in a televised match. I dont think those games were really that impressive though, they were 1-1 both played good sets then dimaga did a 6 or 7 pool and pulled all his drones and won. People seem to forget that when they mention those matches. I think its a huge surprise that he beat JYP, JYP is definietly one of the best PVZ in Korea, he just wasnt playing well and dimaga was and he lost . Trust me if JYP was playing like he was 2 days ago in GSTL where he took out 3 zergs in a row (with some truely inspiring play) we would probably not have seen the same results. Actually at 1 - 1 Dimaga beat Nestea with a 2 base timing push with roach hydra. Yep. Dimaga did that allin down 0-1 to pull the series even.
they are actually analyzed nestea's games and he went 15 hatch without scouting EVERY_SINGLE_GAME those days
so he decides if he needs to he will put this allin, he also practicing it vs 15hatch+non scouting.
So as said - preparation means alot on big lans.
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On October 01 2011 18:57 HQuality wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 18:52 JKira wrote:On October 01 2011 18:39 2shellbonus wrote:On October 01 2011 18:35 Executor1 wrote:On October 01 2011 18:31 MarKeD wrote:
Dimaga did pretty damn strongly when he played in that Korean tournament awhile back, I can't remember exactly who he beat, but at the time he was taking out top Korean players. Shouldn't be too big a surprise he can beat JYP. He was the first person to beat Nestea ZVZ in a televised match. I dont think those games were really that impressive though, they were 1-1 both played good sets then dimaga did a 6 or 7 pool and pulled all his drones and won. People seem to forget that when they mention those matches. I think its a huge surprise that he beat JYP, JYP is definietly one of the best PVZ in Korea, he just wasnt playing well and dimaga was and he lost . Trust me if JYP was playing like he was 2 days ago in GSTL where he took out 3 zergs in a row (with some truely inspiring play) we would probably not have seen the same results. Actually at 1 - 1 Dimaga beat Nestea with a 2 base timing push with roach hydra. Yep. Dimaga did that allin down 0-1 to pull the series even. they are actually analyzed nestea's games and he went 15 hatch without scouting EVERY_SINGLE_GAME those days so he decides if he needs to he will put this allin, he also practicing it vs 15hatch+non scouting. So as said - preparation means alot on big lans.
lol that is so risky on ZVZ these days, especially on small to medium maps like xelnaga, on 4 spawn maps you can get away with it.
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On October 01 2011 18:51 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 18:41 Lunas wrote:On October 01 2011 18:32 Titorelli wrote:On October 01 2011 18:29 poorcloud wrote:On October 01 2011 18:28 Titorelli wrote:
WTF Dimaga... wow how did he manage to beat all those players? Esp JYP JYP played like shit. That explains a lot. I know Dimaga is good but come on its JYP man... Dimaga has won vs MVP July. Only zerg player to have ever beat Nestea in a bo3 won assemply recently. You think some new inexperience protoss gonna beat a world class zerg with a huge experience in lans? Like I said Dimaga so under-hyped because he don't go to MLG or GSL. JYP is far from an inexperienced protoss, did you see his triple kill in the GSL 2 days ago (against 3 different zergs) or last season when he knocked out DRG very convincingly in Ro16 code a. Just cause your a dimaga fan doesnt mean you need to shit on JYP. Anyone who follows the korean scene knows he has one of the best PVZ's (if not the best) in korea right now, and they would also know that he was playing horribly today , its not like JYP was playing really really good and dimaga crushed him, he was playing outdated strats and fairly sloppy as well. Not to take any credit away from dimaga though he played well, but if JYP was playing like his normal self i think the results would have been different or the games would have at least been slightly closer (one way or the other)
Compared to Dimaga´s huge lan experience he is very inexperienced. Also its a big difference from GSL where he know each player he have to face and know there faults and there strong sides.
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Anyone got a link for that replay list Carmac talked about?
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On October 01 2011 18:53 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 18:37 Azarkon wrote:
I think people don't give enough credit to the meta-game changes that come with international tournaments.
JYP played safe/different in these games because he doesn't know what to expect from foreign players. By contrast, he knew what to expect from Korean Zergs, and so he knew what corners he could cut, and what timings he needed to hit. Against foreign players, however, those expectations are out the window. I mean, who knows whether they're going to drone up or do something wtf like build thirty zerglings all of a sudden?
The same is probably true of XiGua. He looks like he's playing way out of his depth in terms of the strategies he's facing. Chinese players probably play very different from EU and KR players, leading him down some embarrassingly bad match-ups. But don't the top Chinese players practice on the Korean server? Furthermore, there's not just stylistic differences between Korea and the EU. That might be true, but mostly Korea is further ahead on strategic development and has builds that are simply better, as in: more safe. A person using those builds should be prepared for pretty much all outdated styles, unless he just forgot how to deal with them.
Top Chinese players do ladder on Korea, but ladder is rarely at the cutting edge of strategies and players.
As for your second comment, I don't necessarily agree that the builds you see in the GSL and GSTL are "more safe." Quite frankly, in tournament situations where you have ample time to prepare for an opponent or a group of opponents, it's often advantageous to come up with targeted strategies that aren't safe, but which effectively counter your opponent's style.
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On October 01 2011 18:52 JKira wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 18:39 2shellbonus wrote:On October 01 2011 18:35 Executor1 wrote:On October 01 2011 18:31 MarKeD wrote:
Dimaga did pretty damn strongly when he played in that Korean tournament awhile back, I can't remember exactly who he beat, but at the time he was taking out top Korean players. Shouldn't be too big a surprise he can beat JYP. He was the first person to beat Nestea ZVZ in a televised match. I dont think those games were really that impressive though, they were 1-1 both played good sets then dimaga did a 6 or 7 pool and pulled all his drones and won. People seem to forget that when they mention those matches. I think its a huge surprise that he beat JYP, JYP is definietly one of the best PVZ in Korea, he just wasnt playing well and dimaga was and he lost . Trust me if JYP was playing like he was 2 days ago in GSTL where he took out 3 zergs in a row (with some truely inspiring play) we would probably not have seen the same results. Actually at 1 - 1 Dimaga beat Nestea with a 2 base timing push with roach hydra. Yep. Dimaga did that allin down 0-1 to pull the series even.
Edit: nm was mistaken
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On October 01 2011 19:01 Lunas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 18:52 JKira wrote:On October 01 2011 18:39 2shellbonus wrote:On October 01 2011 18:35 Executor1 wrote:On October 01 2011 18:31 MarKeD wrote:
Dimaga did pretty damn strongly when he played in that Korean tournament awhile back, I can't remember exactly who he beat, but at the time he was taking out top Korean players. Shouldn't be too big a surprise he can beat JYP. He was the first person to beat Nestea ZVZ in a televised match. I dont think those games were really that impressive though, they were 1-1 both played good sets then dimaga did a 6 or 7 pool and pulled all his drones and won. People seem to forget that when they mention those matches. I think its a huge surprise that he beat JYP, JYP is definietly one of the best PVZ in Korea, he just wasnt playing well and dimaga was and he lost . Trust me if JYP was playing like he was 2 days ago in GSTL where he took out 3 zergs in a row (with some truely inspiring play) we would probably not have seen the same results. Actually at 1 - 1 Dimaga beat Nestea with a 2 base timing push with roach hydra. Yep. Dimaga did that allin down 0-1 to pull the series even. No he didn't, he did it first game at Xel-Naga. then he lost in a close 2nd macro game and won the 3rd game in a close macro game
sigh wtf, 1st game scrap station, 2nd game xel naga, 3rd terminus. know your facts before you start correcting other people
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On October 01 2011 19:01 Lunas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 18:52 JKira wrote:On October 01 2011 18:39 2shellbonus wrote:On October 01 2011 18:35 Executor1 wrote:On October 01 2011 18:31 MarKeD wrote:
Dimaga did pretty damn strongly when he played in that Korean tournament awhile back, I can't remember exactly who he beat, but at the time he was taking out top Korean players. Shouldn't be too big a surprise he can beat JYP. He was the first person to beat Nestea ZVZ in a televised match. I dont think those games were really that impressive though, they were 1-1 both played good sets then dimaga did a 6 or 7 pool and pulled all his drones and won. People seem to forget that when they mention those matches. I think its a huge surprise that he beat JYP, JYP is definietly one of the best PVZ in Korea, he just wasnt playing well and dimaga was and he lost . Trust me if JYP was playing like he was 2 days ago in GSTL where he took out 3 zergs in a row (with some truely inspiring play) we would probably not have seen the same results. Actually at 1 - 1 Dimaga beat Nestea with a 2 base timing push with roach hydra. Yep. Dimaga did that allin down 0-1 to pull the series even. Edit: nm was mistaken
Nope :p
Dimaga lost first map (Scrap Station)
10 pooled with all his drones on Caverns.
Won last game on Terminus (I think) in a great macro game.
VODS are free here http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/64001
edit : gniiiiii
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i think a european should be able to win this iem quite easily. the only player i see challenging them would be Puma or Idra
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soo, any idea what happened to the restream?
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On October 01 2011 19:08 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 19:01 Lunas wrote:On October 01 2011 18:52 JKira wrote:On October 01 2011 18:39 2shellbonus wrote:On October 01 2011 18:35 Executor1 wrote:On October 01 2011 18:31 MarKeD wrote:
Dimaga did pretty damn strongly when he played in that Korean tournament awhile back, I can't remember exactly who he beat, but at the time he was taking out top Korean players. Shouldn't be too big a surprise he can beat JYP. He was the first person to beat Nestea ZVZ in a televised match. I dont think those games were really that impressive though, they were 1-1 both played good sets then dimaga did a 6 or 7 pool and pulled all his drones and won. People seem to forget that when they mention those matches. I think its a huge surprise that he beat JYP, JYP is definietly one of the best PVZ in Korea, he just wasnt playing well and dimaga was and he lost . Trust me if JYP was playing like he was 2 days ago in GSTL where he took out 3 zergs in a row (with some truely inspiring play) we would probably not have seen the same results. Actually at 1 - 1 Dimaga beat Nestea with a 2 base timing push with roach hydra. Yep. Dimaga did that allin down 0-1 to pull the series even. Edit: nm was mistaken Nope :p Dimaga lost first map (Scrap Station) 10 pooled with all his drones on Caverns. Won last game on Terminus (I think) in a great macro game. VODS are free here http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/64001edit : gniiiiii
Ironically, he won the same way in Game 2 against XiGua (though it was a 9 pool with drones), even though he won Game 1 in a macro fashion.
Dimaga is really good at taking advantage of his opponents' builds. He saw Nestea and XiGua do blind 15/16 hatches and just outright killed them with all-ins.
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On October 01 2011 19:09 nufcrulz wrote:
i think a european should be able to win this iem quite easily. the only player i see challenging them would be Puma or Idra
I think JYP has a pretty good shot if he starts playing like he normalyl does tommorow. Also revival is actually really good and has been making waves in the teamleague. I think a korean most likely has this. It will most likely be Puma or JYP if he gets over his nerves.
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On October 01 2011 18:53 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 18:52 JKira wrote:On October 01 2011 18:39 2shellbonus wrote:On October 01 2011 18:35 Executor1 wrote:On October 01 2011 18:31 MarKeD wrote:
Dimaga did pretty damn strongly when he played in that Korean tournament awhile back, I can't remember exactly who he beat, but at the time he was taking out top Korean players. Shouldn't be too big a surprise he can beat JYP. He was the first person to beat Nestea ZVZ in a televised match. I dont think those games were really that impressive though, they were 1-1 both played good sets then dimaga did a 6 or 7 pool and pulled all his drones and won. People seem to forget that when they mention those matches. I think its a huge surprise that he beat JYP, JYP is definietly one of the best PVZ in Korea, he just wasnt playing well and dimaga was and he lost . Trust me if JYP was playing like he was 2 days ago in GSTL where he took out 3 zergs in a row (with some truely inspiring play) we would probably not have seen the same results. Actually at 1 - 1 Dimaga beat Nestea with a 2 base timing push with roach hydra. Yep. Dimaga did that allin down 0-1 to pull the series even. And then outplayed Nestea in next match. Seriously who cares about what happened half year ago -_-
Yeah half a year ago is quite a bad reference. MC was boss half a year ago. So was San and hes in Code B. Players and the metagame change.
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On October 01 2011 19:15 iaretehnoob wrote:
soo, any idea what happened to the restream?
this, anyone?
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On October 01 2011 19:18 Larsin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 19:15 iaretehnoob wrote:
soo, any idea what happened to the restream? this, anyone?
Its not happening, something to do with internet problems in china. Carmac made a post about it a few pages back.
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On October 01 2011 19:16 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 19:09 nufcrulz wrote:
i think a european should be able to win this iem quite easily. the only player i see challenging them would be Puma or Idra I think JYP has a pretty good shot if he starts playing like he normalyl does tommorow. Also revival is actually really good and has been making waves in the teamleague. I think a korean most likely has this. It will most likely be Puma or JYP if he gets over his nerves.
I think Puma is to strong I am sure he is going to win the hole thing.
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PuMa is shaky TvZ, so if DIMAGA gets to play him and plays at his very best he could give him a run for his money IMO!
Good to see DIMAGA crushing his group, too 
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On October 01 2011 19:26 AxionSteel wrote:PuMa is shaky TvZ, so if DIMAGA gets to play him and plays at his very best he could give him a run for his money IMO! Good to see DIMAGA crushing his group, too
vZ: 10-6 (62.50%)
vZ 18-7 (72.00%)
Shaky?
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EPT
