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Stop with the stupid TT1 discussion, this topic is no place for it and you can all express your likes and dislikes in a more respectful and constructive manner. ~Nyovne |
On September 01 2011 09:04 Theovide wrote:Do I really need to do this for you? Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:23 roymarthyup wrote:
you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose.
Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 08:43 roymarthyup wrote:
jinro only said huk made plenty mistakes and thats a big reason he lost. i agree with that
Even if the 1-1-1 is the ultimate hardcounter to voidray allins (I barely play 1-1-1 a lot, so I've never actually meet void rays with it), you're not gonna convince people if you keep saying one thing first, and another second. Nevermind the fact that you shouldn't be whining about balance at all here ._.
i agree that this statement i made was wrong and should have been made better
""""you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose."""
i agree that is a very extreme and wrong statement. i should have wrote it like this
""" you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes and thats the core reason he lost when the truth is the core reason huk lost is because vr openings are a BO loss to 1-1-1 openings. if you put MC into a situation where his terran opponent doesnt suck and MC opens VR and the terran opponent opens 1-1-1 i wouldnt be suprised if MC wins zero games out of 100 unless the terran makes a super big mistake cuz thats the only way to beat 1-1-1 with vr openings, you pray your opponent makes a big mistake. """
if you replace my previous wrong statement with the updated improved statement, then my other statement i made to jinro makes sense
this is what i said to jinro
""im not saying huk played vr opening well, im saying a vr opening is an auto lose to 1-1-1 if the terran makes minimal mistakes"
and that makes sense if you replace me previous "platinum can beat mc" statement with the new improved statement
On September 01 2011 09:06 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 08:11 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 08:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Ok, plz nobody try to say Huk played the void ray opening well, because he didnt. If you want to whine about imbalance of 1-1-1 you can use ANY OTHER GAME EVER PLAYED, but not that one >.< When you almost lose your first void ray to 5 marines, then you know you fucked up +_+ I have no idea how Chris even made it to round of 8 this GSL with his schedule this month, he literally has not been at home and able to practice for more than what... 4-5 days this ENTIRE month? Sooooo Im honestly pretty amazed hes still standing upright, let alone making GSL quarterfinals. Hes played MLG twice, Assembly, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL... gone from USA to holland to finland to korea to the US to germany to Korea to USA to Korea... huk also tried to do damage with the voidray, but thats impossible against 1-1-1 cuz voidrays dont do anything to the marines that are inside the terrans base, and the viking comes out soon anyway
you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose.
Dumbest thing Ive heard in my life. ummm are you saying you think vr openings are good against 1-1-1? im confident i could beat you of i offrace terran and you open vr and i open 1-1-1 and id even put 50 dollars on the game but if i win you dont have to give me anything (but i lose money if you win). however it doesnt really matter its pointless. still ive learned nothing from this thread about how a vr opening magically is good against a 1-1-1. all ive seen is people saying "dude the vr opening is good against 1-1-1. it really is. huk just didnt do damage with his vr, he just had a bad engagement. and ur not supposed to tech twilight+robo afterwards". well duh i know that huk teched too much. still doesnt change the fact that MVP's army was >> huks army the entire game. not getting robo+twilight and having an extra 5 zealots (5 zealots = 500 minerals, robo+twilight+blink = 500 minerals) wouldnt have changed anything whatever, this VR>111 is a stupid urban legend and theres no basis to it.... i shouldnt even bother at this point... i dont think anyone here can actually teach me anything so why do i bother asking... the fact that you think robo+twilight+blink is only costing huk 500 minerals pretty much nullifies your entire argument. it does cost 500 minerals. 150+150+200=500. it also costs 350 gas. so lets just say all that could be 10 extra zealots. it wouldnt have let huk win.
VR opening isn't the magical part. You aren't supposed to open VR and then you automatically 1a through their push and win. The whole point is to do VR + 3gate pressure to force a much much much slower 1-1-1, and outright kill the greedy 1-1-1s. HerO showed us that it in fact DID work and you aren't behind economically because you are putting a nexus after you move out.
Comparing huk's and hero's 3gate VR openings, it was light and day. hero never lost a single stalker ever. His micro at the front of the ramp was impeccable and killed a shit ton of marines (if not killed the bunker and won the game) without losing a stalker, where as huk was playing sloppy the entire time. His voidray got to 10 hp without killing a single thing. The main point of the VR is to pressure his front buildings, no idea what his thought process was when he was going through the back with it.
The fact that he lost a lot of stuff and didn't really do any real damage to MVP means the game is much harder to win.
ok. so you claim vr openings are good against 1-1-1. i wont even bother to argue as its pointless. i get nothing from it. i thought you could play a game against me and show me but whatever its pointless otherwise i guess
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On September 01 2011 09:11 Loodah wrote:
Jinro is wrong. He thinks phoenix is auto win against any factory build. It's not. I don't have to be a foreigner in GSL to figure that out. I've seen Jinro himself destroy people who go pheonix using pure mech - so it's just plain wrong.
I have no sympathy for people who are using the fact that he's a good player as an actual argument. MVP himself joked that the build should be banned - the slayerS coach said it was easy to execute and incredibly difficult to stop no matter which build you use. There is no simply build order win against it. Last time I checked, MVP was better than Jinro. Alicia was better than Jinro as well - so please don't use that weak argument. It makes you look like an idiot.
there are pure build-order-wins against 1-1-1, but they are coinflips, and none of them involve early stargates
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On September 01 2011 09:15 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:13 alan25 wrote:
what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
It's a reactive build and is altered depending on what you scout.
The only one of those builds he listed that was a 1/1/1 was the last one though. Getting tanks but no starport means its not a 1/1/1 and getting 3 rax means its certainly not a 1/1/1. 1/1/1 means you build a rax a factory then a starport.
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On September 01 2011 09:22 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:11 Loodah wrote:
Jinro is wrong. He thinks phoenix is auto win against any factory build. It's not. I don't have to be a foreigner in GSL to figure that out. I've seen Jinro himself destroy people who go pheonix using pure mech - so it's just plain wrong.
I have no sympathy for people who are using the fact that he's a good player as an actual argument. MVP himself joked that the build should be banned - the slayerS coach said it was easy to execute and incredibly difficult to stop no matter which build you use. There is no simply build order win against it. Last time I checked, MVP was better than Jinro. Alicia was better than Jinro as well - so please don't use that weak argument. It makes you look like an idiot. there are pure build-order-wins against 1-1-1, but they are coinflips, and none of them involve early stargates
Name them - 4 gate loses, 1 gate robo has a very small chance to win, DTs loses, Stargate has a very small chance - Blink is LOL against it - charge is okay but once you get a certain number of marines it's not as good - also might not even be done by the time they get there.
Please tell me the build order win against 1-1-1, most top protoss players don't really know it. Kiwi did the closest thing at MLG and still got smashed by Puma in game 3.
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On September 01 2011 09:23 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:15 Nevuk wrote:On September 01 2011 09:13 alan25 wrote:
what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
It's a reactive build and is altered depending on what you scout. The only one of those builds he listed that was a 1/1/1 was the last one though. Getting tanks but no starport means its not a 1/1/1 and getting 3 rax means its certainly not a 1/1/1. 1/1/1 means you build a rax a factory then a starport.
you are right, but plenty 1-1-1's might make a extra rax after that starport in order to get more marines. thats still considered a 111 imo
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On September 01 2011 09:24 Loodah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:22 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 09:11 Loodah wrote:
Jinro is wrong. He thinks phoenix is auto win against any factory build. It's not. I don't have to be a foreigner in GSL to figure that out. I've seen Jinro himself destroy people who go pheonix using pure mech - so it's just plain wrong.
I have no sympathy for people who are using the fact that he's a good player as an actual argument. MVP himself joked that the build should be banned - the slayerS coach said it was easy to execute and incredibly difficult to stop no matter which build you use. There is no simply build order win against it. Last time I checked, MVP was better than Jinro. Alicia was better than Jinro as well - so please don't use that weak argument. It makes you look like an idiot. there are pure build-order-wins against 1-1-1, but they are coinflips, and none of them involve early stargates Name them - 4 gate loses, 1 gate robo has a very small chance to win, DTs loses, Stargate has a very small chance - Blink is LOL against it - charge is okay but once you get a certain number of marines it's not as good - also might not even be done by the time they get there. Please tell me the build order win against 1-1-1, most top protoss players don't really know it. Kiwi did the closest thing at MLG and still got smashed by Puma in game 3.
the 1gate robo builds many korean tosses are trying get the robo AFTER the stalker. if you get the robo before the stalker its much better at beating 1-1-1 cuz it lets you get way faster robo tech but its a coinflip that the terran can easily scout
if you go super fast 2 gasses and make a robo+stalker at the earliest possible times in gameseconds without cutting probes, you can get out an observer so fast enough to scout a 1-1-1 is coming and you will beat the 1-1-1 attack by getting a fast collossi plus you expand at around 7 minutes after you reach saturation. after you have 2 collossi you can pump out immortal+stalker+zealot off 3gate robo while the expo is going up and move around the map picking shots and you can beat 1-1-1 with it
however the build requires you get no sentries before your observer enters his base which is an autoloss to a terran that cuts a few scv's to get out fast 3 barracks+some scv pressure attacks at about the 6 minute mark with mm.
im sure we will be seeing super fast robo builds to counter 1-1-1 soon as the korean protosses start experimenting more with it however it is still a coinflip loss to a terran cutting scv's to get out fast raxes for a fast mm attack at 6-7 minutes
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Sorry to be the combo breaker on this 1-1-1 discussion, but this thread deserves more
FUCK YEAH JULY!!!!!!!!!!! FLYING TUSHIN FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On September 01 2011 09:31 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:24 Loodah wrote:On September 01 2011 09:22 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 09:11 Loodah wrote:
Jinro is wrong. He thinks phoenix is auto win against any factory build. It's not. I don't have to be a foreigner in GSL to figure that out. I've seen Jinro himself destroy people who go pheonix using pure mech - so it's just plain wrong.
I have no sympathy for people who are using the fact that he's a good player as an actual argument. MVP himself joked that the build should be banned - the slayerS coach said it was easy to execute and incredibly difficult to stop no matter which build you use. There is no simply build order win against it. Last time I checked, MVP was better than Jinro. Alicia was better than Jinro as well - so please don't use that weak argument. It makes you look like an idiot. there are pure build-order-wins against 1-1-1, but they are coinflips, and none of them involve early stargates Name them - 4 gate loses, 1 gate robo has a very small chance to win, DTs loses, Stargate has a very small chance - Blink is LOL against it - charge is okay but once you get a certain number of marines it's not as good - also might not even be done by the time they get there. Please tell me the build order win against 1-1-1, most top protoss players don't really know it. Kiwi did the closest thing at MLG and still got smashed by Puma in game 3. the 1gate robo builds many korean tosses are trying get the robo AFTER the stalker. if you get the robo before the stalker its much better at beating 1-1-1 cuz it lets you get way faster robo tech but its a coinflip that the terran can easily scout if you go super fast 2 gasses and make a robo+stalker at the earliest possible times in gameseconds without cutting probes, you can get out an observer so fast enough to scout a 1-1-1 is coming and you will beat the 1-1-1 attack by getting a fast collossi plus you expand at around 7 minutes after you reach saturation. after you have 2 collossi you can pump out immortal+stalker+zealot off 3gate robo while the expo is going up and move around the map picking shots and you can beat 1-1-1 with it however the build requires you get no sentries before your observer enters his base which is an autoloss to a terran that cuts a few scv's to get out fast 3 barracks+some scv pressure attacks at about the 6 minute mark with mm. im sure we will be seeing super fast robo builds to counter 1-1-1 soon as the korean protosses start experimenting more with it however it is still a coinflip loss to a terran cutting scv's to get out fast raxes for a fast mm attack at 6-7 minutes
So 1 build - which by the way is wrong anyways
I do 1 gate robo before stalker sometimes - and no you don't avoid sentries for that long - that's just idiotic. It doesn't build order win against 1-1-1
Sure it lets you scout it, but on some maps even when you know it's coming it's incredibly hard to stop. Also, fast colossus is terrible against this build.
Kiwi does the robo before stalker - then he cancels his nexus and adds a stargate - That is the bets response I have ever seen and he still got owned because there is no good way to engage the army on certain maps. I've talked to him about it, too - This is not the hard counter to 1-1-1, it's the most versatile build in the game which is why there is no hard counter.
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Canada1100 Posts
Other than Nexus first, there are no BO wins against a 1-1-1.
The frustrating part about this build is how it's very hard to distinguish from other terran openings before it's too late.
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On September 01 2011 09:25 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:23 Adreme wrote:On September 01 2011 09:15 Nevuk wrote:On September 01 2011 09:13 alan25 wrote:
what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
It's a reactive build and is altered depending on what you scout. The only one of those builds he listed that was a 1/1/1 was the last one though. Getting tanks but no starport means its not a 1/1/1 and getting 3 rax means its certainly not a 1/1/1. 1/1/1 means you build a rax a factory then a starport. you are right, but plenty 1-1-1's might make a extra rax after that starport in order to get more marines. thats still considered a 111 imo
That would be a 2-1-1, I think. Since the 1-1-1 refers to the tech structures built. I think due to the timing of it a 2-1-1 is going to be comparatively weaker after the build time on the structure is taken into account.
Anyways, I lay the blame for all of this on Polt.
Also, I hope July wins the finals via some ridiculous super abusive builds. The only thing left are terrans, his marquee matchup.
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On September 01 2011 09:17 roymarthyup wrote:
ok. so you claim vr openings are good against 1-1-1. i wont even bother to argue as its pointless. i get nothing from it. i thought you could play a game against me and show me but whatever its pointless otherwise i guess
I can respect you agreeing to disagree rather than flaming and all... but could you actually watch the half-dozen games people have posted where VR opening beats 1-1-1? Maybe you have and still feel that it doesn't, but it really sounds like you just want to fall back on playing someone off-race who may or may not be in the same league as you.
On September 01 2011 09:11 Loodah wrote:
Jinro is wrong. He thinks phoenix is auto win against any factory build. It's not. I don't have to be a foreigner in GSL to figure that out. I've seen Jinro himself destroy people who go pheonix using pure mech - so it's just plain wrong.
I have no sympathy for people who are using the fact that he's a good player as an actual argument. MVP himself joked that the build should be banned - the slayerS coach said it was easy to execute and incredibly difficult to stop no matter which build you use. There is no simply build order win against it. Last time I checked, MVP was better than Jinro. Alicia was better than Jinro as well - so please don't use that weak argument. It makes you look like an idiot.
When did Jinro say that? It certainly wasn't in this thread. As long as we're using MVP jokes as evidence of balance, how about when he told Artosis that Terran is the weakest race and that the new map pool (Terminus, ect) was unbalanced against Terran? We don't take jokes seriously for a reason, even if they support our point of view.
I don't get why you're talking about Alicia either, as far as I can tell they've never played nor is Alicia the SlayerS coach.
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lol you guys are acting as if Huk could have won, but lost because reason X
Without 1-1-1, without grievous errors, Huk still would have lost to Mvp
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mmm what about mass pure zealot and pheonix to counter the 1-1-1?
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On August 31 2011 13:02 SidianTheBard wrote:TBH, I'd want Huk and July to win just so there isn't a chance of TvTvTvT.  Although, I think MVP is going to crush HuK 3-0. July vs Ryung will be much closer and could easily go 3-2 either way. Although I'm rooting for July to win. Sooo. MVP 3-0 HuK July 3-2 Ryung Secretly I'm hoping for a 3-0 July win that only lasts like 20 minutes because July is that fucking aggressive.
Woah. Just reposting this to give this guy props for getting a 100% on his prediction. That isn't very common.
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On September 01 2011 09:15 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:13 alan25 wrote:
what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
It's a reactive build and is altered depending on what you scout.
Now it simply doesn't make sense anymore.
Are ppl honestly expecting terran to not tech whatsoever?
This double standards crap is starting to get very annoying
terran does a timing push with any rumber of units and wins = "its the 1-1-1 push just a different form.
Might i add here there was not even a freaking starport unit in this push.
Terran does some build with units of the 3 facilities and toss hold = "it was not the true 1-1-1 build it needs x unit"
Hell, terran would push with marines only and ppl would still call it the 1-1-1 build when there was a factory in the make of the push.
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I wished i could have watchedd. I wish HuK coulda done better
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On September 01 2011 10:48 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:15 Nevuk wrote:On September 01 2011 09:13 alan25 wrote:
what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
It's a reactive build and is altered depending on what you scout. Now it simply doesn't make sense anymore. Are ppl honestly expecting terran to not tech whatsoever? This double standards crap is starting to get very annoying terran does a timing push with any rumber of units and wins = "its the 1-1-1 push just a different form. Might i add here there was not even a freaking starport unit in this push. Terran does some build with units of the 3 facilities and toss hold = "it was not the true 1-1-1 build it needs x unit" Hell, terran would push with marines only and ppl would still call it the 1-1-1 build when there was a factory in the make of the push.
Look, this is what it looks like. Possibly this is balance whine, I don't know, but it's what the decision tree looks like from the protoss perspective.
For protoss, you cannot tell whether he is doing anything even remotely like the "true" 1/1/1 push at the time when you have to commit to its counter (greedy expand).
This expansion delays your tech enough that you generally still cannot tell what he's doing until it is far too late to react, while terran has all the information he needs (obvious expansion) and all the tools he needs (most of his tech buildings) in ample time to change his build and crush you with one of a half-dozen variations.
That's why protoss seem to whine about the 1/1/1 every time terran does anything at all. It's because the sheer power of the build, coupled with the fact that its only known counter is blind, dictates everything we do. If a T wins with a reactive push that's modified from 1/1/1 because the protoss was doing a build designed to hold the true 1/1/1 instead, it's not a big stretch to say that P still lost because of the threat of the 1/1/1.
That's thinking in terms of passive, defensive plays, though. The aggressive, delaying stuff is very interesting. I'm hoping there's a variant of the stargate pressure (maybe 2gate star expand?) that can push the 1/1/1 down to manageable levels without being a 1-base all-in itself.
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gogo july looove watching him play gl in ro4
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Watching KiwiKaKi vs. Puma in MLG, I can understand why some people would hate on Korean Terrans abusing OP builds. Huk vs. MVP...Huk was simply dominated by a far superior player. I'm a Zerg, so I think I'm pretty neutral on the subject. Even Tasteosis was groaning about some of HuK's decisions, and they don't always catch everything that's going on. HuK just got outplayed in my opinion...
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On September 01 2011 10:23 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:17 roymarthyup wrote:
ok. so you claim vr openings are good against 1-1-1. i wont even bother to argue as its pointless. i get nothing from it. i thought you could play a game against me and show me but whatever its pointless otherwise i guess I can respect you agreeing to disagree rather than flaming and all... but could you actually watch the half-dozen games people have posted where VR opening beats 1-1-1? Maybe you have and still feel that it doesn't, but it really sounds like you just want to fall back on playing someone off-race who may or may not be in the same league as you. Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:11 Loodah wrote:
Jinro is wrong. He thinks phoenix is auto win against any factory build. It's not. I don't have to be a foreigner in GSL to figure that out. I've seen Jinro himself destroy people who go pheonix using pure mech - so it's just plain wrong.
I have no sympathy for people who are using the fact that he's a good player as an actual argument. MVP himself joked that the build should be banned - the slayerS coach said it was easy to execute and incredibly difficult to stop no matter which build you use. There is no simply build order win against it. Last time I checked, MVP was better than Jinro. Alicia was better than Jinro as well - so please don't use that weak argument. It makes you look like an idiot. When did Jinro say that? It certainly wasn't in this thread. As long as we're using MVP jokes as evidence of balance, how about when he told Artosis that Terran is the weakest race and that the new map pool (Terminus, ect) was unbalanced against Terran? We don't take jokes seriously for a reason, even if they support our point of view. I don't get why you're talking about Alicia either, as far as I can tell they've never played nor is Alicia the SlayerS coach.
Twitter posts from SlayerS alicia and MVP. I know MVP was joking, but that was because of the high frequency of the build and how rare it is to see protoss win against it at least in broadcasted matches.
Not only did Alicia say it but also the SlayerS coach, (Cella in case you didn't) did as well. Jinro also tweeted that phoenix is free win against factory build. I asked him about it and saw many games at mLG where this wasn't the case. He was just wrong. So are you.
VR opening does not beat 1-1-1 if you scout effectively. You should already have a bunker, and then you are basically safe. If you get a viking and then make a second bunker you are completely safe. Once combat shields kicks in you win easily. You should also already have a reactor on your barracks.
The difference between VR opening and 1-1-1 opening in terms of strength is that VR openings once scouted are not strong.
1-1-1 can be scouted and unless you already have at least 3 gates and a robo you are dead.
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EPT
