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Stop with the stupid TT1 discussion, this topic is no place for it and you can all express your likes and dislikes in a more respectful and constructive manner. ~Nyovne |
On September 01 2011 11:39 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 10:48 Assirra wrote:On September 01 2011 09:15 Nevuk wrote:On September 01 2011 09:13 alan25 wrote:
what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
It's a reactive build and is altered depending on what you scout. Now it simply doesn't make sense anymore. Are ppl honestly expecting terran to not tech whatsoever? This double standards crap is starting to get very annoying terran does a timing push with any rumber of units and wins = "its the 1-1-1 push just a different form. Might i add here there was not even a freaking starport unit in this push. Terran does some build with units of the 3 facilities and toss hold = "it was not the true 1-1-1 build it needs x unit" Hell, terran would push with marines only and ppl would still call it the 1-1-1 build when there was a factory in the make of the push. Look, this is what it looks like. Possibly this is balance whine, I don't know, but it's what the decision tree looks like from the protoss perspective. For protoss, you cannot tell whether he is doing anything even remotely like the "true" 1/1/1 push at the time when you have to commit to its counter (greedy expand). This expansion delays your tech enough that you generally still cannot tell what he's doing until it is far too late to react, while terran has all the information he needs (obvious expansion) and all the tools he needs (most of his tech buildings) in ample time to change his build and crush you with one of a half-dozen variations. That's why protoss seem to whine about the 1/1/1 every time terran does anything at all. It's because the sheer power of the build, coupled with the fact that its only known counter is blind, dictates everything we do. If a T wins with a reactive push that's modified from 1/1/1 because the protoss was doing a build designed to hold the true 1/1/1 instead, it's not a big stretch to say that P still lost because of the threat of the 1/1/1. That's thinking in terms of passive, defensive plays, though. The aggressive, delaying stuff is very interesting. I'm hoping there's a variant of the stargate pressure (maybe 2gate star expand?) that can push the 1/1/1 down to manageable levels without being a 1-base all-in itself.
Maybe it's because I play Terran but I can always tell when a Terran is going for an aggressive 1/1/1 as opposed to a more passive tech heavy one. Regardless of what Protoss players might think. 1/1/1 timing attacks in all their variations are far more common in TvT than in any other match up so learning to recognize them is second nature to us.
It all comes down to which building gets the reactor. If the Reactor goes on the barracks, and he starts producing a lot of marines, there's a good chance he's going for some sort of timing attack.
If the Reactor is on the Factory it's automatically going to be hellions.
If the Reactor is on the Starport you know you won't need to be concerned about Banshees or Ravens.
Aggressive scouting via a fast observer or possibly even fast tech to hallucination is a good idea not to mention constant probe or stalker poking at the ramp is required. If it is a 1/1/1 build you're going to have free map control until the push happens because the Terran won't have marauders. Use that to get as much info as possible.
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Dude, vs Protoss the Reactor ALWAYS goes down on the barracks (after 3 marines I think usually, but it can go down after 1 which leaves you unsure of if you will see a 2-rax or a 1-1-1). Protoss cannot scout pre-observer vs Terran (unless Terran is bad) except with a push at the front (which is what I do to at least force Terran to make a bunker and check which build he's doing). However the push at the front and the observer come too late to react to some variations.
If you get a fast observer then expand as soon as possible (gate-core-robo-nexus-obs), you will probably still lose to a 1-1-1 (I firmly believe it can't be held off from one base and I don't see any way to hold it with the delayed Nexus) and will have your nexus cancelled by 2-rax.
If you stalker-Nexus-robo you will usually straight-up die to 2-rax or basically any pressure-based bio opening (but this is your best chance to hold off the 1-1-1).
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On September 01 2011 22:43 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 11:39 Belisarius wrote:On September 01 2011 10:48 Assirra wrote:On September 01 2011 09:15 Nevuk wrote:On September 01 2011 09:13 alan25 wrote:
what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
It's a reactive build and is altered depending on what you scout. Now it simply doesn't make sense anymore. Are ppl honestly expecting terran to not tech whatsoever? This double standards crap is starting to get very annoying terran does a timing push with any rumber of units and wins = "its the 1-1-1 push just a different form. Might i add here there was not even a freaking starport unit in this push. Terran does some build with units of the 3 facilities and toss hold = "it was not the true 1-1-1 build it needs x unit" Hell, terran would push with marines only and ppl would still call it the 1-1-1 build when there was a factory in the make of the push. Look, this is what it looks like. Possibly this is balance whine, I don't know, but it's what the decision tree looks like from the protoss perspective. For protoss, you cannot tell whether he is doing anything even remotely like the "true" 1/1/1 push at the time when you have to commit to its counter (greedy expand). This expansion delays your tech enough that you generally still cannot tell what he's doing until it is far too late to react, while terran has all the information he needs (obvious expansion) and all the tools he needs (most of his tech buildings) in ample time to change his build and crush you with one of a half-dozen variations. That's why protoss seem to whine about the 1/1/1 every time terran does anything at all. It's because the sheer power of the build, coupled with the fact that its only known counter is blind, dictates everything we do. If a T wins with a reactive push that's modified from 1/1/1 because the protoss was doing a build designed to hold the true 1/1/1 instead, it's not a big stretch to say that P still lost because of the threat of the 1/1/1. That's thinking in terms of passive, defensive plays, though. The aggressive, delaying stuff is very interesting. I'm hoping there's a variant of the stargate pressure (maybe 2gate star expand?) that can push the 1/1/1 down to manageable levels without being a 1-base all-in itself. Maybe it's because I play Terran but I can always tell when a Terran is going for an aggressive 1/1/1 as opposed to a more passive tech heavy one. Regardless of what Protoss players might think. 1/1/1 timing attacks in all their variations are far more common in TvT than in any other match up so learning to recognize them is second nature to us. It all comes down to which building gets the reactor. If the Reactor goes on the barracks, and he starts producing a lot of marines, there's a good chance he's going for some sort of timing attack. If the Reactor is on the Factory it's automatically going to be hellions. If the Reactor is on the Starport you know you won't need to be concerned about Banshees or Ravens. Aggressive scouting via a fast observer or possibly even fast tech to hallucination is a good idea not to mention constant probe or stalker poking at the ramp is required. If it is a 1/1/1 build you're going to have free map control until the push happens because the Terran won't have marauders. Use that to get as much info as possible.
a true 1/1/1 will never have reactors on factory or starport. 1/1/1 will always be mass marines/tanks(siege or not depending on variant)/banshee or medivac or viking(depending on scouted toss response)/raven(maybe)
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122 Posts
There in lies the rub. The Terran ability to deny scouting is so strong the toss needs to decide on a game plan well before they actually know what the terran is doing.
On the plus side all terran pushes will come 5 seconds later after patch 1.4, so yea... that should be real helpful!
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On September 02 2011 00:46 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 22:43 aresendez88 wrote:On September 01 2011 11:39 Belisarius wrote:On September 01 2011 10:48 Assirra wrote:On September 01 2011 09:15 Nevuk wrote:On September 01 2011 09:13 alan25 wrote:
what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
It's a reactive build and is altered depending on what you scout. Now it simply doesn't make sense anymore. Are ppl honestly expecting terran to not tech whatsoever? This double standards crap is starting to get very annoying terran does a timing push with any rumber of units and wins = "its the 1-1-1 push just a different form. Might i add here there was not even a freaking starport unit in this push. Terran does some build with units of the 3 facilities and toss hold = "it was not the true 1-1-1 build it needs x unit" Hell, terran would push with marines only and ppl would still call it the 1-1-1 build when there was a factory in the make of the push. Look, this is what it looks like. Possibly this is balance whine, I don't know, but it's what the decision tree looks like from the protoss perspective. For protoss, you cannot tell whether he is doing anything even remotely like the "true" 1/1/1 push at the time when you have to commit to its counter (greedy expand). This expansion delays your tech enough that you generally still cannot tell what he's doing until it is far too late to react, while terran has all the information he needs (obvious expansion) and all the tools he needs (most of his tech buildings) in ample time to change his build and crush you with one of a half-dozen variations. That's why protoss seem to whine about the 1/1/1 every time terran does anything at all. It's because the sheer power of the build, coupled with the fact that its only known counter is blind, dictates everything we do. If a T wins with a reactive push that's modified from 1/1/1 because the protoss was doing a build designed to hold the true 1/1/1 instead, it's not a big stretch to say that P still lost because of the threat of the 1/1/1. That's thinking in terms of passive, defensive plays, though. The aggressive, delaying stuff is very interesting. I'm hoping there's a variant of the stargate pressure (maybe 2gate star expand?) that can push the 1/1/1 down to manageable levels without being a 1-base all-in itself. Maybe it's because I play Terran but I can always tell when a Terran is going for an aggressive 1/1/1 as opposed to a more passive tech heavy one. Regardless of what Protoss players might think. 1/1/1 timing attacks in all their variations are far more common in TvT than in any other match up so learning to recognize them is second nature to us. It all comes down to which building gets the reactor. If the Reactor goes on the barracks, and he starts producing a lot of marines, there's a good chance he's going for some sort of timing attack. If the Reactor is on the Factory it's automatically going to be hellions. If the Reactor is on the Starport you know you won't need to be concerned about Banshees or Ravens. Aggressive scouting via a fast observer or possibly even fast tech to hallucination is a good idea not to mention constant probe or stalker poking at the ramp is required. If it is a 1/1/1 build you're going to have free map control until the push happens because the Terran won't have marauders. Use that to get as much info as possible. a true 1/1/1 will never have reactors on factory or starport. 1/1/1 will always be mass marines/tanks(siege or not depending on variant)/banshee or medivac or viking(depending on scouted toss response)/raven(maybe)
mind fucking blown. i thought 1/1/1 simply meant rax then fac then port then to its variations. no idea it ONLY meant mass marine tank. thanks for the insight.
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On September 01 2011 20:11 Loodah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 10:23 Wuster wrote:On September 01 2011 09:17 roymarthyup wrote:
ok. so you claim vr openings are good against 1-1-1. i wont even bother to argue as its pointless. i get nothing from it. i thought you could play a game against me and show me but whatever its pointless otherwise i guess I can respect you agreeing to disagree rather than flaming and all... but could you actually watch the half-dozen games people have posted where VR opening beats 1-1-1? Maybe you have and still feel that it doesn't, but it really sounds like you just want to fall back on playing someone off-race who may or may not be in the same league as you. On September 01 2011 09:11 Loodah wrote:
Jinro is wrong. He thinks phoenix is auto win against any factory build. It's not. I don't have to be a foreigner in GSL to figure that out. I've seen Jinro himself destroy people who go pheonix using pure mech - so it's just plain wrong.
I have no sympathy for people who are using the fact that he's a good player as an actual argument. MVP himself joked that the build should be banned - the slayerS coach said it was easy to execute and incredibly difficult to stop no matter which build you use. There is no simply build order win against it. Last time I checked, MVP was better than Jinro. Alicia was better than Jinro as well - so please don't use that weak argument. It makes you look like an idiot. When did Jinro say that? It certainly wasn't in this thread. As long as we're using MVP jokes as evidence of balance, how about when he told Artosis that Terran is the weakest race and that the new map pool (Terminus, ect) was unbalanced against Terran? We don't take jokes seriously for a reason, even if they support our point of view. I don't get why you're talking about Alicia either, as far as I can tell they've never played nor is Alicia the SlayerS coach. Twitter posts from SlayerS alicia and MVP. I know MVP was joking, but that was because of the high frequency of the build and how rare it is to see protoss win against it at least in broadcasted matches. Not only did Alicia say it but also the SlayerS coach, (Cella in case you didn't) did as well. Jinro also tweeted that phoenix is free win against factory build. I asked him about it and saw many games at mLG where this wasn't the case. He was just wrong. So are you. VR opening does not beat 1-1-1 if you scout effectively. You should already have a bunker, and then you are basically safe. If you get a viking and then make a second bunker you are completely safe. Once combat shields kicks in you win easily. You should also already have a reactor on your barracks. The difference between VR opening and 1-1-1 opening in terms of strength is that VR openings once scouted are not strong. 1-1-1 can be scouted and unless you already have at least 3 gates and a robo you are dead.
I do know who Cella is, I didn't get the comparison to Alicia vs Jinro because TLPD doesn't have them ever having played.
IWhen I read your post I saw a bunch of random quotes without explaining where they were from when half of them don't even have to do with the 1-1-1. That's what I was asking about. I actually don't agree with Jinro, I just never saw him mention it.
So you mention his twitter to bring up a nice ad hominen when he wasn't even talking about Phoenixes or Factory builds in this thread (the context is void rays and 1-1-1). And you applied it me too, well done.
I don't really have an opinion on the 1-1-1 to be honest, but the first guy I was responding to was just ignoring all the counter-examples people were bringing up. If you he wanted to refute them like you did, that's all well and good and infinitely more productive than challenging everyone who disagrees to a custom.
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IMMVP interview.
Q: Your opponent used void rays in the second game.
A: Lately Protosses have been using a 3-gate – 1 stargate build to be able to stop 1-1-1 easily. It seems like this is why Huk used this void ray build.
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Polt's opponents during this season :
- Pool Play : Noblesse, MVP, and Noblesse again
- Ro16 : MMA
- Ro8 : Keen
- Ro4 : TOP
and if he makes it to the finals (and I assume he will) that will be (most likely) against MvP...
100% TvT ... This is just wrong ! (And please everyone stop saying TvT is his weak match-up, it's obiously not the case anymlore, every tournament in which he faces lots of terrans he does better than usual...
anyway, I hope he'll be crushed hard by MvP in the finals
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I absolutely love how July plays Zerg, games 1,2,5 were awesome. It feels like the style he plays is how most zergs refuse to believe you can play and win. So glad he won, would love to see him take a GSL
As for HuK/MVP, pretty crushing defeat but huk had to be pretty damn tired
and that was a hilarious Tastosis cast
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On September 01 2011 01:24 kineticSYN wrote:
lol @ the people saying july will beat mvp because 'last time they met' he '2-0'd' him
the 2-0's you're talking about were from group stages, and both were baneling bust allins
they met more recently in the world championships where mvp decisively 3-1'd for a sweep.
lost game 1 which was pretty close, and then mvp decimated him in every way in games 2, 3, and 4.
mvp's tvz is nothing short of perfection and artwork, and july is inconsistent/hit or miss.
hoping for some good games but i don't see anything besides probably a 3-1 victory again for mvp, might even be 3-0 since mvp's form this season is fucking amazing
July is very hard to beat consistently, his strategy can be anything from one base all-in to 3-4 base ultralisk pushes. To me JulyZerg is one of those players that seems to handle pressure perfectly and it's really entertaining to watch his matches.
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EPT
