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Stop with the stupid TT1 discussion, this topic is no place for it and you can all express your likes and dislikes in a more respectful and constructive manner. ~Nyovne |
On September 01 2011 08:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Ok, plz nobody try to say Huk played the void ray opening well, because he didnt. If you want to whine about imbalance of 1-1-1 you can use ANY OTHER GAME EVER PLAYED, but not that one >.< When you almost lose your first void ray to 5 marines, then you know you fucked up +_+ I have no idea how Chris even made it to round of 8 this GSL with his schedule this month, he literally has not been at home and able to practice for more than what... 4-5 days this ENTIRE month? Sooooo Im honestly pretty amazed hes still standing upright, let alone making GSL quarterfinals. Hes played MLG twice, Assembly, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL... gone from USA to holland to finland to korea to the US to germany to Korea to USA to Korea... Show nested quote +huk also tried to do damage with the voidray, but thats impossible against 1-1-1 cuz voidrays dont do anything to the marines that are inside the terrans base, and the viking comes out soon anyway
you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose.
Dumbest thing Ive heard in my life.
ummm are you saying you think vr openings are good against 1-1-1? im confident i could beat you of i offrace terran and you open vr and i open 1-1-1 and id even put 50 dollars on the game but if i win you dont have to give me anything (but i lose money if you win). however it doesnt really matter its pointless. still ive learned nothing from this thread about how a vr opening magically is good against a 1-1-1. all ive seen is people saying "dude the vr opening is good against 1-1-1. it really is. huk just didnt do damage with his vr, he just had a bad engagement. and ur not supposed to tech twilight+robo afterwards".
well duh i know that huk teched too much. still doesnt change the fact that MVP's army was >> huks army the entire game. not getting robo+twilight and having an extra 5 zealots (5 zealots = 500 minerals, robo+twilight+blink = 500 minerals) wouldnt have changed anything
whatever, this VR>111 is a stupid urban legend and theres no basis to it.... i shouldnt even bother at this point... i dont think anyone here can actually teach me anything so why do i bother asking...
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On September 01 2011 07:18 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 06:37 RedMosquito wrote:
Great games from july zerg. He's a true master at prioritizing. sure he doesn't spread creep why? cuz he wants to micro his mutas instead. Why doesn't he max out and spend all his money? cuz hes pooling for ultralisks or some other better maxed composition than ling bane. People need to stop hating on him and realize the genius behind his play. oh and when is the last time you saw a two rax work against him? While the 2nd point is true, not spreading creep is unforgivable. A truly great player uses all the tools at disposal, and remembering to spread creep isn't that time-consuming considering how much benefit you get out of it. A couple of clicks every 15 seconds or so is enough.
true and true, but he's a world class zerg player, and hes doing fine in his own way
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On September 01 2011 08:09 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 08:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ok, plz nobody try to say Huk played the void ray opening well, because he didnt. If you want to whine about imbalance of 1-1-1 you can use ANY OTHER GAME EVER PLAYED, but not that one >.< When you almost lose your first void ray to 5 marines, then you know you fucked up +_+
I have no idea how Chris even made it to round of 8 this GSL with his schedule this month, he literally has not been at home and able to practice for more than what... 4-5 days this ENTIRE month? Sooooo Im honestly pretty amazed hes still standing upright, let alone making GSL quarterfinals.
Hes played MLG twice, Assembly, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL... gone from USA to holland to finland to korea to the US to germany to Korea to USA to Korea...
im not saying huk played vr opening well, im saying a vr opening is an auto lose to 1-1-1 if the terran makes minimal mistakes
You're seriously underestimating the skill difference between MC and a plat terran. A plat terran beating him is incredibly unlikely, which has nothing to do with builds. If you wanted to say NA GM it's still a pretty big skill difference, but a plat player is almost never going to beat an actual pro.
A plat terran is going to make far more than minimal mistakes.
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On September 01 2011 06:58 jyisvip wrote:
I can "try" to understand the No vote on recommended games for games 1 and 2 for Mvp vs huk, but game 3? That was the long macro game everyone wanted (huk still got crushed) and you guys still vote no..?
Huk played like trash. It was hard to watch once he started to fall apart...
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Spoilered because the entire post is huge:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 01 2011 07:49 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:43 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 07:30 akalarry wrote:On September 01 2011 07:23 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 06:56 Kazeyonoma wrote:On September 01 2011 06:49 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 06:44 akalarry wrote:
please it wasn't autolose in game 2. first of all, huk literally threw away his void ray. also he could've held it off if he just went 6 gates with mass zealot/stalker, forgoing twilight council and cutting probes. he just needs to mass units and not tech until he sees the second cc land at mvp's natural. what he did was god at the beginning, forcing mvp to siege early by the watchtower, but he barely had any units. a nice zealot/stalker and maybe immortal flank using the gold with 6 gates would've destroyed that push.
game 1 was dumb. i don't know why he does 2 gas 1 gate fe. he would've been much better off getting zealot/stalker with 1 gas 1 gate fe. also keep in mind huk was playing horribly every game. he was losing free stalkers left and right, which he normally does not do because his micro is generally really good. 6gate zealot/stalker (with or without sentries, with or without immortals) doesnt beat MVP's 11 minute marine/tank attack because mvp's attack hits before huks late expansion provides enough of a resource advantage to let huk win 1) even if huk didnt lose the voidray, doesnt matter. the voidray does 6 damage per attack and sucks against mass marines. and huk had just 1 of them. huk could have had 4 free/instant/bonus voidrays at the time of MVP's attack and huk still would have lost 2) huk had a late after-voidray-expansion 3) because huk opened voidray, every option he had after his after-voidray-expansion was an auto lose situation 4) you seem to think 6gates off a after-vr-expo beats mvp's push... sorry but it doesnt... but you can believe that if you want i guess other than your 6gate claim... what do you think makes game2 not an auto-loss ? The Autoloss was Huk's failed vray + stalker push, losing the vray with no damage, and losing his front push to 1 bunker some scvs and 1 tank was his death sentence. It wasn't his BO or MVP's BO that won the game, Huk screwed the pooch when he went for a risky vray play and failed to do damage with it. how else are you supposed to play a vr opening not try to pressure? huk tried to pressure because opening vr and sitting in your base is retarded so you say huk did no damage and that lost him the game, but you are forgetting a few things. a voidray cannot do damage against a smart terran 1) mvp built a bunker which is pretty standard for 1-1-1 to be able to beat vr or 4gate openings. pumas 1-1-1 against kiwikaki at MLG on xelnaga was risky because puma does a risky 1-1-1 version that skips that early bunker. mvp's 1-1-1 push would hits a few seconds later than pumas because he spends 25 extra minerals after salvaging that bunker, however pumas 1-1-1 push will die to 4gate pressure because he made no bunker 2) because mvp did the better 1-1-1 build (with bunker) it left huk with two options. try to pressure with stalkers or sit in his base. lets look at huks options option A, sit in his base. thats retarded. option B, try to pressure with stalkers huk tried this. but failed. because mvp was smart and made the bunker. theres nothing huk could have done at this point to "pressure" mvp's 1-1-1 opening because 1bunker + plus soon to be sieged tanks kills any 1base protoss rush huk also tried to do damage with the voidray, but thats impossible against 1-1-1 cuz voidrays dont do anything to the marines that are inside the terrans base, and the viking comes out soon anyway you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose. if you think voidray openings can somehow beat a 1-1-1 opening, feel free to message me i garuntee i can copy MVP's build in game3 and defeat any voidray opening a protoss can do. im master level and play toss but doing a 1-1-1 is easy. as a master toss i know that voidray openings will not beat a 1-1-1. voidray openings are a BO loss to a 111 unless the terran makes mistakes EDIT: im not saying huk is a better player than mvp, im just saying MVP's blind 111 opening in game2 is a instant BO win over huks blind stargate opening did you watch the second game? he threw away his void ray trying to kill a supply depot and doing fancy micro. he had over a minute before the viking was out and killed it. even without the void ray, huk broke the front bunker and almost broke mvp until siege tanks came out. imagine if huk tried to break the ramp minutes earlier WITH the void ray. mvp did not have many marines. if huk used his void ray normally, it wouldve been much closer, i'd even give the advantage to huk. the voidray could only attack stuff on the outskirts of mvps base. because there are marines inside the base. what else do you want huk to do with his voidray??? yes huk killed the bunker, even if huks voidray was in that frontal assault mvp still had a large enough army to beat huks forces """imagine if huk tried to break the ramp minutes earlier WITH the void ray. mvp did not have many marines. if huk used his void ray normally, it wouldve been much closer, i'd even give the advantage to huk.""" you are simply wrong. mvp had enough stuff to beat huks army. then after mvp defends huks voidray attack, everything i wrote about the bo loss is true if you think huk could break MVP's bunker +111 off 1base with a voidray opening, feel free to message me. i can win against it 10 games out of 10. theres no way for a voidray build to beat a 111 build without the terran making mistakes. nothing you have said so far disputes that even slightly """When did I ever say to not be aggressive with the vray, i'm saying, and in agreement with the other poster here, that he should've used the vray smarter,""" okay... you are starting to imply that you think opening VR's is somehow good against 111? this is hilarious. at first i thought you were saying huks mistakes are a big reason why he lost, now you saying saying vr's are good against 111 ??? ..... ive never seen a VR beat 111 unless the terran made heavy mistakes """either to attack the mineral line at least to do some eco damage""" doesnt work against a smart terran. marines beat voidrays """while he pushed the front, or used it in the front push with stalkers to help defend it from the viking/marines.""" doesnt win the game. still causes the toss to auto lose. the 1-1-1 terran will have a stronger army than the voidray protoss because marines beat stalkers,sentries,voidrays,and zealots """ It was just a bad engagement overall. Also, voidray openings do beat 1/1/1, it's been known that the best way to beat the 1/1/1 all in, is to do a vray all in as well""" you are wrong. in competitive play i still havnt seen a vr opening beat 111 unless the terran made heavy mistakes """ Look at how Genius did it to beat Virus, TWICE. """ i remember watching those games but i actually dont remember what happened those games completely but i vividly remember the terran making plenty mistakes. But if a vr opening beat 111 without the terran making heavy mistakes, i would love to see it link to vids please??? but im pretty sure the terran probably made mistakes because if i had seen such a thing happen (vr opening beating a perfect 111) i would probably have ingrained it into my memory Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:48 akalarry wrote:
lol at MVPs magically huge army. its not even worth it to discuss anymore. not sure if i'm being baited into a troll anymore. i am a master toss. everything im saying here is true. you are the one trolling trying to tell other tosses out there that they should open Vr with the magical intentions of beating 111. I am saying it straight to tosses that a vr opening will not be succesfull at stopping a 111 at all. you are pretty much hoping the terran makes huge mistakes. if you really think a vr opening can beat a perfect 1-1-1, PLEASE play a game with me and show me how its done. because ive tried with my terran practice partners and its pretty much impossible if the terran is good. i am confident i can beat any vr opener with a 111. message me to show me otherwise if you want i would love to learn a counter to 111. you are saying VR's get the job done please show me how its done i really want to find a counter to it that isnt a coinflip
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/66040
sets 2 and 3
also, Jinro himself has come here and said it was largely in part due to bad play by Chris, are you seriously going to argue with the best foreigner in GSL history about this? You honestly don't think Jinro practices this shit against MC to try to figure out ways to stop it? Cmon man wtf. You can abuse warping in on the high ground with the vray providing vision, you use stalkers to protect your pylon and your vray, you use vray to poke at the mineral line. actually Metalopolis is a perfect map for this because your vray can both poke at the main mineral line, and quickly retreat to stalkers on lowground that poke at marines who tread too close to the cliff line.
from the 1/1/1 broken in korea thread:
On August 28 2011 14:28 sekritzzz wrote:
This build has been out since beta btw. except with the recent void ray nerf/wp nerf it became popular again because void ray all ins was what put a stop to it.
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On September 01 2011 08:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ok, plz nobody try to say Huk played the void ray opening well, because he didnt. If you want to whine about imbalance of 1-1-1 you can use ANY OTHER GAME EVER PLAYED, but not that one >.< When you almost lose your first void ray to 5 marines, then you know you fucked up +_+
I have no idea how Chris even made it to round of 8 this GSL with his schedule this month, he literally has not been at home and able to practice for more than what... 4-5 days this ENTIRE month? Sooooo Im honestly pretty amazed hes still standing upright, let alone making GSL quarterfinals.
Hes played MLG twice, Assembly, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL... gone from USA to holland to finland to korea to the US to germany to Korea to USA to Korea...
If you aren't going to take the GSL serious by staying back and practicing instead of flying out days before your match then nobody should be suprised, or defend you, when you inevitably get crushed by the player who passed up foreign tournies to practice for his MU.
If he was serious about making it to the ro4 he would have stayed in Korea and done nothing but practice non-stop for it. However I think it was a lose-lose since even if he did practice the chances of him losing were still going to be exceptionally high (especially since he no longer has oGs to practice in). If that is the case then it makes sense to go to MLG because 1. you can win money against lesser competition and 2. you have a built in excuse that you wouldn't have had otherwise. Sounds harsh but makes complete sense.
And to answer your question, he made it to the ro8 b/c he got Nada (whos play was.. interesting) instead of anybody else.
I agree about the 1-1-1 comments tho.
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On September 01 2011 08:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Ok, plz nobody try to say Huk played the void ray opening well, because he didnt. If you want to whine about imbalance of 1-1-1 you can use ANY OTHER GAME EVER PLAYED, but not that one >.< When you almost lose your first void ray to 5 marines, then you know you fucked up +_+ I have no idea how Chris even made it to round of 8 this GSL with his schedule this month, he literally has not been at home and able to practice for more than what... 4-5 days this ENTIRE month? Sooooo Im honestly pretty amazed hes still standing upright, let alone making GSL quarterfinals. Hes played MLG twice, Assembly, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL... gone from USA to holland to finland to korea to the US to germany to Korea to USA to Korea... Show nested quote +huk also tried to do damage with the voidray, but thats impossible against 1-1-1 cuz voidrays dont do anything to the marines that are inside the terrans base, and the viking comes out soon anyway
you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose.
Dumbest thing Ive heard in my life.
I'm honestly surprised too that Huk has been playing as well as he has despite his traveling.
But you're also spot on with your assessment of his play in game 2. Void Rays openings work against the 1/1/1 build, Genius is a good example of that, but as has always been the case with Void Rays, you have to have good control over them because they are a very large investment.
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You could tell by Huk's FFs here and in Raleigh that the travel is getting to him.
Of course his execution of the VR all-in wasn't the best either, which is an indication of his lack of practice. Let's be real, all he did was kill a couple marines and cost a lot of money in Depot repairs *and* he forgot to push the front when MVP sent all his marines to the back of the base.
Even with the late attack at the front he was able to break down the first bunker, but his poor control meant that the Viking pretty much auto-cleaned up the VR and for once a lack of sentries cost him at the ramp.
Edit: Poor control of the VR vs. Marines that is, the VR had something like 20 hp on it when the Viking came out.
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On September 01 2011 08:28 Kazeyonoma wrote:Spoilered because the entire post is huge: + Show Spoiler +On September 01 2011 07:49 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:43 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 07:30 akalarry wrote:On September 01 2011 07:23 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 06:56 Kazeyonoma wrote:On September 01 2011 06:49 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 06:44 akalarry wrote:
please it wasn't autolose in game 2. first of all, huk literally threw away his void ray. also he could've held it off if he just went 6 gates with mass zealot/stalker, forgoing twilight council and cutting probes. he just needs to mass units and not tech until he sees the second cc land at mvp's natural. what he did was god at the beginning, forcing mvp to siege early by the watchtower, but he barely had any units. a nice zealot/stalker and maybe immortal flank using the gold with 6 gates would've destroyed that push.
game 1 was dumb. i don't know why he does 2 gas 1 gate fe. he would've been much better off getting zealot/stalker with 1 gas 1 gate fe. also keep in mind huk was playing horribly every game. he was losing free stalkers left and right, which he normally does not do because his micro is generally really good. 6gate zealot/stalker (with or without sentries, with or without immortals) doesnt beat MVP's 11 minute marine/tank attack because mvp's attack hits before huks late expansion provides enough of a resource advantage to let huk win 1) even if huk didnt lose the voidray, doesnt matter. the voidray does 6 damage per attack and sucks against mass marines. and huk had just 1 of them. huk could have had 4 free/instant/bonus voidrays at the time of MVP's attack and huk still would have lost 2) huk had a late after-voidray-expansion 3) because huk opened voidray, every option he had after his after-voidray-expansion was an auto lose situation 4) you seem to think 6gates off a after-vr-expo beats mvp's push... sorry but it doesnt... but you can believe that if you want i guess other than your 6gate claim... what do you think makes game2 not an auto-loss ? The Autoloss was Huk's failed vray + stalker push, losing the vray with no damage, and losing his front push to 1 bunker some scvs and 1 tank was his death sentence. It wasn't his BO or MVP's BO that won the game, Huk screwed the pooch when he went for a risky vray play and failed to do damage with it. how else are you supposed to play a vr opening not try to pressure? huk tried to pressure because opening vr and sitting in your base is retarded so you say huk did no damage and that lost him the game, but you are forgetting a few things. a voidray cannot do damage against a smart terran 1) mvp built a bunker which is pretty standard for 1-1-1 to be able to beat vr or 4gate openings. pumas 1-1-1 against kiwikaki at MLG on xelnaga was risky because puma does a risky 1-1-1 version that skips that early bunker. mvp's 1-1-1 push would hits a few seconds later than pumas because he spends 25 extra minerals after salvaging that bunker, however pumas 1-1-1 push will die to 4gate pressure because he made no bunker 2) because mvp did the better 1-1-1 build (with bunker) it left huk with two options. try to pressure with stalkers or sit in his base. lets look at huks options option A, sit in his base. thats retarded. option B, try to pressure with stalkers huk tried this. but failed. because mvp was smart and made the bunker. theres nothing huk could have done at this point to "pressure" mvp's 1-1-1 opening because 1bunker + plus soon to be sieged tanks kills any 1base protoss rush huk also tried to do damage with the voidray, but thats impossible against 1-1-1 cuz voidrays dont do anything to the marines that are inside the terrans base, and the viking comes out soon anyway you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose. if you think voidray openings can somehow beat a 1-1-1 opening, feel free to message me i garuntee i can copy MVP's build in game3 and defeat any voidray opening a protoss can do. im master level and play toss but doing a 1-1-1 is easy. as a master toss i know that voidray openings will not beat a 1-1-1. voidray openings are a BO loss to a 111 unless the terran makes mistakes EDIT: im not saying huk is a better player than mvp, im just saying MVP's blind 111 opening in game2 is a instant BO win over huks blind stargate opening did you watch the second game? he threw away his void ray trying to kill a supply depot and doing fancy micro. he had over a minute before the viking was out and killed it. even without the void ray, huk broke the front bunker and almost broke mvp until siege tanks came out. imagine if huk tried to break the ramp minutes earlier WITH the void ray. mvp did not have many marines. if huk used his void ray normally, it wouldve been much closer, i'd even give the advantage to huk. the voidray could only attack stuff on the outskirts of mvps base. because there are marines inside the base. what else do you want huk to do with his voidray??? yes huk killed the bunker, even if huks voidray was in that frontal assault mvp still had a large enough army to beat huks forces """imagine if huk tried to break the ramp minutes earlier WITH the void ray. mvp did not have many marines. if huk used his void ray normally, it wouldve been much closer, i'd even give the advantage to huk.""" you are simply wrong. mvp had enough stuff to beat huks army. then after mvp defends huks voidray attack, everything i wrote about the bo loss is true if you think huk could break MVP's bunker +111 off 1base with a voidray opening, feel free to message me. i can win against it 10 games out of 10. theres no way for a voidray build to beat a 111 build without the terran making mistakes. nothing you have said so far disputes that even slightly """When did I ever say to not be aggressive with the vray, i'm saying, and in agreement with the other poster here, that he should've used the vray smarter,""" okay... you are starting to imply that you think opening VR's is somehow good against 111? this is hilarious. at first i thought you were saying huks mistakes are a big reason why he lost, now you saying saying vr's are good against 111 ??? ..... ive never seen a VR beat 111 unless the terran made heavy mistakes """either to attack the mineral line at least to do some eco damage""" doesnt work against a smart terran. marines beat voidrays """while he pushed the front, or used it in the front push with stalkers to help defend it from the viking/marines.""" doesnt win the game. still causes the toss to auto lose. the 1-1-1 terran will have a stronger army than the voidray protoss because marines beat stalkers,sentries,voidrays,and zealots """ It was just a bad engagement overall. Also, voidray openings do beat 1/1/1, it's been known that the best way to beat the 1/1/1 all in, is to do a vray all in as well""" you are wrong. in competitive play i still havnt seen a vr opening beat 111 unless the terran made heavy mistakes """ Look at how Genius did it to beat Virus, TWICE. """ i remember watching those games but i actually dont remember what happened those games completely but i vividly remember the terran making plenty mistakes. But if a vr opening beat 111 without the terran making heavy mistakes, i would love to see it link to vids please??? but im pretty sure the terran probably made mistakes because if i had seen such a thing happen (vr opening beating a perfect 111) i would probably have ingrained it into my memory Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:48 akalarry wrote:
lol at MVPs magically huge army. its not even worth it to discuss anymore. not sure if i'm being baited into a troll anymore. i am a master toss. everything im saying here is true. you are the one trolling trying to tell other tosses out there that they should open Vr with the magical intentions of beating 111. I am saying it straight to tosses that a vr opening will not be succesfull at stopping a 111 at all. you are pretty much hoping the terran makes huge mistakes. if you really think a vr opening can beat a perfect 1-1-1, PLEASE play a game with me and show me how its done. because ive tried with my terran practice partners and its pretty much impossible if the terran is good. i am confident i can beat any vr opener with a 111. message me to show me otherwise if you want i would love to learn a counter to 111. you are saying VR's get the job done please show me how its done i really want to find a counter to it that isnt a coinflip sets 2 and 3 also, Jinro himself has come here and said it was largely in part due to bad play by Chris, are you seriously going to argue with the best foreigner in GSL history about this? You honestly don't think Jinro practices this shit against MC to try to figure out ways to stop it? Cmon man wtf. You can abuse warping in on the high ground with the vray providing vision, you use stalkers to protect your pylon and your vray, you use vray to poke at the mineral line. actually Metalopolis is a perfect map for this because your vray can both poke at the main mineral line, and quickly retreat to stalkers on lowground that poke at marines who tread too close to the cliff line. from the 1/1/1 broken in korea thread: Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 14:28 sekritzzz wrote:
This build has been out since beta btw. except with the recent void ray nerf/wp nerf it became popular again because void ray all ins was what put a stop to it.
i never argued with jinro. i simply asked him "are you saying vr beats 1-1-1", to which jinro never replied.
I never said anything jinro said was "wrong", i simply told jinro "im not saying huk played good, im saying vr is a bo loss to 1-1-1".
my statement is not a direct argument to what jinro said. in fact, my statement was a statement of AGREEMENT to what jinro said. jinro said "dont say huk played the vr opening good", and i pretty much told him "i wasnt saying that. i agree with you. im not saying huk played good, im saying vr loses to 111 no matter what as long as the terran doesnt make a super stupid mistake"
"""are you seriously going to argue with the best foreigner in GSL history about this?"""
it depends what you mean by the word this
jinro only said huk made plenty mistakes and thats a big reason he lost. i agree with that
jinro NEVER said vr beats 1-1-1. but he is only 4% sort of implying it
if jinro is actually saying vr beats 1-1-1 (which he never said), then yes, i would gladly tell him i believe he is wrong and i would gladly throw down 100 dollars to FINALLY learn a viable counter to 1-1-1
i can offrace terran and open 1-1-1
jinro can offrace toss and open voidray
if he wins, he gets 100 dollars.
if i win, i once again find out that vr doesnt beat 1-1-1. jinro doesnt have to give me any money
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On September 01 2011 07:55 roymarthyup wrote:
i am not trying to troll here. i am a master toss who is hearing these guys say vr beats 111 and i am simply trying to learn from them how thats possible.
i dont want to troll. i want to learn. if this guy says vr beats 111 im just saying holy cow i would love for you to show me how its done, because ive tried 100+ times and failed trying to make it work
i am confident in my ability to offrace as terran and beat any vr opening with 111. these guys are saying vr openings are a counter to 111 and im just asking them to explain to me how.
i could take it to PM's if the mods want, i am just genuinely trying to learn. i seriously dont want to troll.
I'm not sure how you think anyone is going to take you seriously when you've posted this before:
On September 01 2011 07:23 roymarthyup wrote:
you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose.
If you think a platinum player can beat MC whatever opener the platinum player or MC does, you're simply not serious. Also note that you here said "you are acting as if huk made plenty of misstakes" meanwhile you later say this to Jinro:
On September 01 2011 08:09 roymarthyup wrote:
im not saying huk played vr opening well, im saying a vr opening is an auto lose to 1-1-1 if the terran makes minimal mistakes
Add on the top of that how you seem to just spam out that you're a masters player, to somewhat reinforce your lacking argument... It's simply put very hard to take you seriously, you just seem to be raging mindlessly at the 1-1-1 instead of looking for solutions. (Or, incase you are only raging on 1-1-1 vs vr openings, which many players seem to disagree with you about, then I could tell you that there is a lot off allins, like the 3gate vr, that got builds they autolose against.)
I'm not going to argue about here if the 1-1-1 actually is imbalanced, partially because I don't know, I'm only high masters afterall (note the only, I don't think me being a masters player mean I know shit about this game on the absolute highest level) + even if I did, this is not the place for such an argument.
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What is this balance whine? LESS QQ MORE JULYYYYYYYYY!!!!
<3 god of war. Such a beast, he can play any style that Zerg has.
And he saved us from GOMTvTvTvT!
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I have no idea why u guys are arguing over the fact that MVP is a much better player.
Complain all you want about Terran vs Toss... MVP is in another league above Huk. This was Huk's best showing in the final 8. MVP has 2 championships... Huk has none. Why are people crying about this?? Huk placed 7th this weekend in MLG.. behind all the koreans. Only reason Huk was in this situation is because he had an easy group. I like huk... but he has no shot at MVP. MC is the best Protoss in the world and he got owned by MVP.
At the end of the day, the better player won. I wish people weren't such fanboys for a player (huk) or a race (terran). tell me why nestea won 3 times and MC won twice if the terran was so great??
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You can tell HuK was fatigued because he lost his first stalker 2 games vs MVP (maybe 3??). HuKs control is usually MUCH MUCH better then that, nothing to be ashamed of though, played bad but still maybe it looked worse because it was against the best player in the world. Also a new personal record for GSL for HuK. Gj
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Do I really need to do this for you?
On September 01 2011 07:23 roymarthyup wrote:
you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose.
On September 01 2011 08:43 roymarthyup wrote:
jinro only said huk made plenty mistakes and thats a big reason he lost. i agree with that
Even if the 1-1-1 is the ultimate hardcounter to voidray allins (I barely play 1-1-1 a lot, so I've never actually meet void rays with it), you're not gonna convince people if you keep saying one thing first, and another second. Nevermind the fact that you shouldn't be whining about balance at all here ._.
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On September 01 2011 08:11 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 08:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Ok, plz nobody try to say Huk played the void ray opening well, because he didnt. If you want to whine about imbalance of 1-1-1 you can use ANY OTHER GAME EVER PLAYED, but not that one >.< When you almost lose your first void ray to 5 marines, then you know you fucked up +_+ I have no idea how Chris even made it to round of 8 this GSL with his schedule this month, he literally has not been at home and able to practice for more than what... 4-5 days this ENTIRE month? Sooooo Im honestly pretty amazed hes still standing upright, let alone making GSL quarterfinals. Hes played MLG twice, Assembly, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL... gone from USA to holland to finland to korea to the US to germany to Korea to USA to Korea... huk also tried to do damage with the voidray, but thats impossible against 1-1-1 cuz voidrays dont do anything to the marines that are inside the terrans base, and the viking comes out soon anyway
you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose.
Dumbest thing Ive heard in my life. ummm are you saying you think vr openings are good against 1-1-1? im confident i could beat you of i offrace terran and you open vr and i open 1-1-1 and id even put 50 dollars on the game but if i win you dont have to give me anything (but i lose money if you win). however it doesnt really matter its pointless. still ive learned nothing from this thread about how a vr opening magically is good against a 1-1-1. all ive seen is people saying "dude the vr opening is good against 1-1-1. it really is. huk just didnt do damage with his vr, he just had a bad engagement. and ur not supposed to tech twilight+robo afterwards". well duh i know that huk teched too much. still doesnt change the fact that MVP's army was >> huks army the entire game. not getting robo+twilight and having an extra 5 zealots (5 zealots = 500 minerals, robo+twilight+blink = 500 minerals) wouldnt have changed anything whatever, this VR>111 is a stupid urban legend and theres no basis to it.... i shouldnt even bother at this point... i dont think anyone here can actually teach me anything so why do i bother asking...
the fact that you think robo+twilight+blink is only costing huk 500 minerals pretty much nullifies your entire argument. VR opening isn't the magical part. You aren't supposed to open VR and then you automatically 1a through their push and win. The whole point is to do VR + 3gate pressure to force a much much much slower 1-1-1, and outright kill the greedy 1-1-1s. HerO showed us that it in fact DID work and you aren't behind economically because you are putting a nexus after you move out.
Comparing huk's and hero's 3gate VR openings, it was light and day. hero never lost a single stalker ever. His micro at the front of the ramp was impeccable and killed a shit ton of marines (if not killed the bunker and won the game) without losing a stalker, where as huk was playing sloppy the entire time. His voidray got to 10 hp without killing a single thing. The main point of the VR is to pressure his front buildings, no idea what his thought process was when he was going through the back with it.
The fact that he lost a lot of stuff and didn't really do any real damage to MVP means the game is much harder to win.
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I only caught part of Game 5 of July vs Ryung and the Vod for Game 1 of that series.
I say, JulyZerg is really impressing me whenever I see him play, especially against Terran. His non-stop pure aggression is very entertaining to watch, even when the Terran player is able to hold against it.
However, IMMVP is a formidable player and is looking quite in-form, so July will have a tough time in his next match. I really think that the winner of the semifinals will go on to win the finals. MVP's TvT is not to be trifled with, especially since he beat Polt in the group stages. If July can beat MVP in the semifinals, he should have no trouble with the Terran player coming from the other side of the bracket.
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On September 01 2011 09:06 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 08:11 roymarthyup wrote:On September 01 2011 08:07 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Ok, plz nobody try to say Huk played the void ray opening well, because he didnt. If you want to whine about imbalance of 1-1-1 you can use ANY OTHER GAME EVER PLAYED, but not that one >.< When you almost lose your first void ray to 5 marines, then you know you fucked up +_+ I have no idea how Chris even made it to round of 8 this GSL with his schedule this month, he literally has not been at home and able to practice for more than what... 4-5 days this ENTIRE month? Sooooo Im honestly pretty amazed hes still standing upright, let alone making GSL quarterfinals. Hes played MLG twice, Assembly, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL... gone from USA to holland to finland to korea to the US to germany to Korea to USA to Korea... huk also tried to do damage with the voidray, but thats impossible against 1-1-1 cuz voidrays dont do anything to the marines that are inside the terrans base, and the viking comes out soon anyway
you are acting as if huk made plenty of mistakes but if you put MC into that situation and told him to open voidray against a platinum terran doing 1-1-1 the same things would have happened. voidray opening do not have options against 1-1-1 opening. the options are to lose, or to lose.
Dumbest thing Ive heard in my life. ummm are you saying you think vr openings are good against 1-1-1? im confident i could beat you of i offrace terran and you open vr and i open 1-1-1 and id even put 50 dollars on the game but if i win you dont have to give me anything (but i lose money if you win). however it doesnt really matter its pointless. still ive learned nothing from this thread about how a vr opening magically is good against a 1-1-1. all ive seen is people saying "dude the vr opening is good against 1-1-1. it really is. huk just didnt do damage with his vr, he just had a bad engagement. and ur not supposed to tech twilight+robo afterwards". well duh i know that huk teched too much. still doesnt change the fact that MVP's army was >> huks army the entire game. not getting robo+twilight and having an extra 5 zealots (5 zealots = 500 minerals, robo+twilight+blink = 500 minerals) wouldnt have changed anything whatever, this VR>111 is a stupid urban legend and theres no basis to it.... i shouldnt even bother at this point... i dont think anyone here can actually teach me anything so why do i bother asking... the fact that you think robo+twilight+blink is only costing huk 500 minerals pretty much nullifies your entire argument. VR opening isn't the magical part. You aren't supposed to open VR and then you automatically 1a through their push and win. The whole point is to do VR + 3gate pressure to force a much much much slower 1-1-1, and outright kill the greedy 1-1-1s. HerO showed us that it in fact DID work and you aren't behind economically because you are putting a nexus after you move out. Comparing huk's and hero's 3gate VR openings, it was light and day. hero never lost a single stalker ever. His micro at the front of the ramp was impeccable and killed a shit ton of marines (if not killed the bunker and won the game) without losing a stalker, where as huk was playing sloppy the entire time. His voidray got to 10 hp without killing a single thing. The main point of the VR is to pressure his front buildings, no idea what his thought process was when he was going through the back with it. The fact that he lost a lot of stuff and didn't really do any real damage to MVP means the game is much harder to win.
That's exactly how I feel about it.
The 1/1/1 all in is only unbeatable within a specific window of time. If you can delay that timing with void rays without losing a ton of units it means your chances of holding that specific unit combination at that particular timing.
So far the debate has been if Protoss can erect enough defensive structures/units in order to hold the all in without pressuring the Terran, I think the verdict is in that it's possible but it's really tough. But there hasn't been nearly enough talk about the fact that if you pressure the Terran while he's trying to go for that timing, you are throwing the timing off at the very least. in some cases you can actually just kill him with an aggressive timing of your own if he doesn't prepare adequately enough for it.
Good examples: Genius vs Top Game 1, HerO vs Sjow the entire series.
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Jinro is wrong. He thinks phoenix is auto win against any factory build. It's not. I don't have to be a foreigner in GSL to figure that out. I've seen Jinro himself destroy people who go pheonix using pure mech - so it's just plain wrong.
I have no sympathy for people who are using the fact that he's a good player as an actual argument. MVP himself joked that the build should be banned - the slayerS coach said it was easy to execute and incredibly difficult to stop no matter which build you use. There is no simply build order win against it. Last time I checked, MVP was better than Jinro. Alicia was better than Jinro as well - so please don't use that weak argument. It makes you look like an idiot.
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what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
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On September 01 2011 09:13 alan25 wrote:
what exactly is the best 1-1-1 build?
reactored rax (no stim of course) or is it 3 rax no reactors on any?
tech lab factory siege research 2-3 tanks
tech lab banshee no cloak 2-3 banshee
It's a reactive build and is altered depending on what you scout.
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EPT
