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United Kingdom16710 Posts
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On August 08 2011 20:01 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:56 Leporello wrote:On August 08 2011 19:49 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:47 Dfgj wrote:On August 08 2011 19:46 fant0m wrote:On August 08 2011 19:43 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:40 itsjuspeter wrote:On August 08 2011 19:39 graNite wrote:On August 08 2011 19:26 Fyzar wrote:
1/1/1 incoming 100% Where is the 1.1.1 now? stop whining protoss, we can beat you without this 1base push too did we ever say you couldn't...? what are you trying to prove, i actually don't mind losing if it's a nice macro game with aggressive strategies like these. boost your ego somewhere else So you get to dictate the 'honorable way' an opponent beats you? Sadly a LOT of SC2 players feel that way. Especially Zerg (and by the way I play Z now, I switched races this summer). People like Psy, Destiny, and Idra think that anyone who comes with a push before 15 minutes isn't playing the game "properly." If you think the skill used by Taeja and required to prepare in game 1 and game 3 was anywhere near comparable you're deluding yourself. You know what takes skill? Winning. There's some Zerg-propaganda influenced mindset that macro games 'take more skill.' In Brood War, yes. But in SC2 macro is so easy that I basically laugh in your face at that notion. It's just an excuse for greedy players to look down on rushes and cheeses so they have an excuse when they aren't prepared for those. Late game takes more skill than early/mid game. Because there's simply more units, more buildings to macro, more to do. Players who routinely play towards a late game have a point in thinking they are playing at a higher skill level than players who routinely strive to kill their opponent with one base. Granted, wins are the ultimate gauge of skill, but thus far in SC2, it's easier for players to learn a few all-in builds than learn the more complex late-game counters and unit compositions. And "in SC2, macro is so easy"? What, are you a pro? It's easier than Brood War in some aspects, but it certainly isn't easy to the point that all players -- even at the pro level -- show the same understanding and level of proper macro. What a BS statement. Frankly, I don't think the game is balanced in the lategame at all. All the timings are gone, and macroing in the late game is a LOT easier than it was in BW and most people will end up banking a lot of minerals anyway and it just isn't important to be constantly keeping your minerals low when you're maxed. In BW you're not even maxed most of the time because you're constantly engaging while late game sc2 is pretty turtle style. Just because you have more units doesn't mean it takes more skill.
To address your last point especially, I think that has just as much to do with the depth of the player's understanding of the game than the game itself. I won't disagree that Brood War macro was much more mechanically challenging. It certainly was. But SC2's late game macro is far from simple, and the strategy and timings behind it is still being figured out to a large degree -- which is why the late game looks so "sloppy" compared to Brood War.
I'm not saying anything about balance.
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drg <3
perfect and fastest reactions to everything jeezus
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InCa going for colossus now. Good that DRG already has NP.
I hope DRG gets burrow, with his infestor roach army.
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United States97276 Posts
On August 08 2011 20:05 Nastiness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 20:03 Shellshock1122 wrote:On August 08 2011 20:03 Nastiness wrote:
HTs cant be NP right?... They can. Destiny NP high temps vs Axslav and stormed his probe line i thought they made HTs psyoinic (spelling?) so they couldnt be NP.. but might be a dream :D
I dont think so. It was the play of the week in the IPL when he did it
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ROFL...thats just humiliating lol
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On August 08 2011 20:03 Failsafe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:59 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:56 Failsafe wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:49 Failsafe wrote:On August 08 2011 19:47 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:45 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:40 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:38 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:31 Ocedic wrote:
[quote]
So then you are in favor of nerfing/buffing around flavor of the month builds? 1-1-1 has been around for a while but it only recently came back (it was gone for a few months.) I mean, did you watch the game? Taeja had 14 marines, 3 tanks and 2 bansshees against 3 stalkers and 3 sentries. You saying it's overpowered that the T force wins against 6 units?
Might I recommend you start playing the novice maps, there are rocks that prevent rushes so you can play as greedy as you like. Your last statement is funny because you imply that I'm some terrible noob who needs novice maps, yet, a fast expansion (what I'm assuming your statement about being "greedy" is aimed at) is actually agreed upon by many good Toss players to be the best way to deal with 1-1-1. So who's the one who doesn't understand the game? Oh, and Tails had more than just 3 stalkers and 3 sentries, so maybe you're the one that needs to watch more carefully... Implying someone else's ignorance while simultaneously being ignorant yourself doesn't... really work. Hearsay isn't a good arugment, especially when you don't even cite your sources. 'Many good Toss players' agree with you? I can do the same thing, many good non-Protoss players disagree with you. Also, first you claim no counter to the strategy exists, now you say there is a way to deal with it. Make up your mind, balance whiner! Where did I claim that no counter exists? Strawman harder, dude. I feel like I've effectively communicated that there are counters, but they're not very consistent. I said right there in one of my posts embedded in that big quote tree: "For one thing, most people here don't think it's uncounterable, but just that the skill and effort that takes to counter it far outstrips the skill and effort needed to execute it." Read more carefully. I didn't cite my sources because I actually don't feel like putting that much effort into arguing with someone like you - this "hearsay" I talk about is just observing 1-1-1 discussion in LR threads. I could ask right here in this LR thread what experienced Protoss players think is a proper counter to 1-1-1, and I'm pretty sure that what they say would match up with what I'm claiming works. But I don't think that would convince you either, because then you'd play one of two cards: 1. There's no proof that the players in the LR thread are experienced Toss players 2. Players in an LR thread aren't enough numerically to constitute "many good Toss players". Thanks for countering your own arguments for me. So basically you admit you don't have an actual argument and thus don't back up your claims. Got it. Either cite your sources (waiting on these 'good Protoss' quotes) or don't make shit up. who are you? it seems pretty clear to the vast majority of viewers that there are problems with the 111 build. the onus is on you to support your claim that there isn't a problem. the fact of the matter is that it's a frequently used build with an insane win rate. what have you got? Yes, cause the majority of posters whining in an LR thread (most of the people here probably don't even play much, let alone at a level where balance matters) equates to a universally accepted notion about balance. You got me there. you're expressing an opinion contrary to everyone else and you don't support it. you're being a douchebag. i'm not arguing from the strength of majority opinion -- i'm just pointing out that you're being an ass. to support my claim i reference that 1-1-1 takes very little skill to execute (and this is pretty much undisputed) to support my claim i reference 1-1-1's extremely high winrate at every level of play, including when executed against heavy favorites who would otherwise be expected to win what claims do you use to support your argument? you can't simply say 'no you're wrong, i disagree with you'. you have to provide some sort of evidence for disagreeing. My point isn't that my opinion matters. It's that yours doesn't either. In Brood War I can cite builds that have high win rates considering the game has a lot of static, optimized build orders. Does that make them overpowered? Sorry but if every balance decision in SC2 was determined by bronze/silver league players in these LR threads, SC2 would be a terrible game. your opinion is that my opinion doesn't matter? you can cite builds in brood war? what bearing does that have on this situation? what do bronze league players have to do with anything? i'm a GM and i disagree with you and you still haven't made an argument
Hey, guys. This is an LR thread. That stands for live report (emphasis on the live part). TvP isn't live right now. If you want to have it out with each other there is a PM system and plenty of other avenues to pursue a stupid argument that is irrelevant to the current ZvP going on. Kindly move along and stop shitting up this thread.
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Neural on a Prism.
Never thought i'd see that ever.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On August 08 2011 20:05 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 20:04 Drazerk wrote:On August 08 2011 20:03 Drazerk wrote:On August 08 2011 20:01 Drazerk wrote:On August 08 2011 20:01 Drazerk wrote:On August 08 2011 20:00 Drazerk wrote:On August 08 2011 20:00 Drazerk wrote:On August 08 2011 19:59 Drazerk wrote:On August 08 2011 19:58 Drazerk wrote:On August 08 2011 19:57 Drazerk wrote:Late LR start!  Dongraegu vs Inca  In the top left is Inca In the top right is Dongraegu
6:00
Void on the way for inca getting a second starport ( He's on two bases ) Lair and a evo on the way for DRG who is also on two bases 8:00Voids and zealots going to harass Infestation pit on the way 9:10Inca loses a pheonix for free Pathogen gland + infesters on the way Twilight council and +1 for inca 10:50Inca loses all of his air units... three more gateways and a templar archive in production now 11:30Charge on the way for Inca DRG remaking the infestation put and getting +2 melee 12:00Storm on the way for Inca 15:00parasite and overlord drop for DRG 15:30Robo bay and a warp prism for inca Baneling nest for DRG 16:00Fourth base on the way for DRG Huge storms hit a lot of DRGs army forcing a retreat
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NP on the warp prism taking it into spore range lol
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Inca is outplaying DRG so hard right now.
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Dr. G pulling awesome stuff lolol
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On August 08 2011 20:03 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 20:00 Ribbon wrote:
Slow it down enough to let your economic advantage kick in, by forcing sieges and stuff.
How do you do that? Dunno. Bet it's complicated and involved a lot of smart engaging and micro. But I feel fairly strongly that's where the answer lies.
If you're close air metal though....ugh. No idea. I don't know how to stop it on even medium-distance maps. But that's a map problem, maybe? It's a combination of the short distance and the easy wall to hide next to. Terran just hugs that wall along the 2 bases and your zealots can get like no surface area at all.
I think it's very map dependent. 1-1-1 on cross Taldarim is way less scary than Metal.
I wonder if we should revisit the idea that huge maps are bad for Zerg. Make all-ins weaker.
DRG NP's a warm prism! He's so cool!
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Hahah DRG is awesome, NP the warp prism into his spore crawler and target fire it.
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United Arab Emirates874 Posts
hahaha neural parasite is so cool
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On August 08 2011 20:03 shabby wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 20:00 XiGua wrote:
Fun fact:
Chinese commentators call the buildings after what the buttons which is needed to build it.
Example: Cybernetics core - BY "Bee-Why"
Barracks - BB "Bee-Bee"
Stargate - VS "Vee-Ess"
It's pretty funny. Source?
it's been like this since broodwar commentary. u can check out chinese streams, they refer to 4 pool as 4d =/.
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EPT
