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On June 24 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 10:00 zor.au wrote:
DRG is just a beast - his macro + micro just seems so good as well as his decision making.
Its a pity he didn't make code a (& code S). I would love to see more of his games. His baneling landlines are just as good as Nesteas (not just his games last night but vs scforu in the special tournament).
How did he get knocked out from the Code A run? Cheesed by toss or is his ZvP weak?
His ZvP is weak, from what I've seen. I don't think it's atrocious, but maybe at the same level as NesTea's ZvT. It's definitely his worst match-up in any case, and oGsHero is pretty damn strong.
Also, he had to play a beastly long base-trade game against qxc immediately before playing oGsHero, which probably didn't help at all.
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On June 24 2011 10:08 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:On June 24 2011 10:00 zor.au wrote:
DRG is just a beast - his macro + micro just seems so good as well as his decision making.
Its a pity he didn't make code a (& code S). I would love to see more of his games. His baneling landlines are just as good as Nesteas (not just his games last night but vs scforu in the special tournament).
How did he get knocked out from the Code A run? Cheesed by toss or is his ZvP weak? His ZvP is weak, from what I've seen. I don't think it's atrocious, but maybe at the same level as NesTea's ZvT. It's definitely his worst match-up in any case, and oGsHero is pretty damn strong. Also, he had to play a beastly long base-trade game against qxc immediately before playing oGsHero, which probably didn't help at all.
Err no, Nestea has amazing ZvT. Arguably the best in the world. Just because he had an off day vs an excellent player in TOP does not mean his ZvT is not top-notch.
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On June 24 2011 09:37 WindCalibur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 09:01 babysimba wrote:On June 24 2011 08:14 WindCalibur wrote:
I will be honest and say that I personally think MMA is overrated.
Go watch his MLG replays and watch him get supply blocked again and again. His mechanics are weak and though his apm is high, most of it is probably spam. His "drop" play is a hindrance. Let me explain why:
1. Drops are used to be cost in effective in the sense that you disrupt economy or pick off weak points that you can't access otherwise. When you try to do this, you must try to pinpoint weak points. MMA skips this step and just drops at locations that are not only predictable, but aren't the zerg's weakpoints. In addition, even when mutas are out and the zerg has complete map control, he still drops. MMA is banking on the opponent to make mistakes, in which is not dependant on MMA's skills, but rather his opponent's skills to react.
2. His style usually gets him a fast 3rd. Dropping leaves him open to aggression. Watch July vs him on metropolis where july abuses a strong timing where MMA is extremely weak. Though July lost that game, MMA was behind after the aggression.
So his strategies rely on his opponent to "not know" what he is doing in addition to the opponent making mistakes. His play is hardly what you call solid. His high apm comes from constantly cycling of production buildings. His late game macro (once >3 bases, not adding any more supply depots and production buildings) is close to perfect. I remember seeing his replay against july. He constantly switches to raxes to produce more marines while controlling 2 drops and moving his main army at the same time. While he was cleaning up july's remaining army at the final moments, he was still adding more rines in his raxes while his rines are being microed back to kite banelings -_- His drops do not bank on the opponent making mistakes. He is definitely the best terran out there who utilise drops. You do not see him dropping just for the sake of forcing his oppoenent into a game of multi-tasking. Everytime he does multi-pronged drops, he will force zerg's army to split up, allowing his main army to move to clean up creep tumours and push up the tank line in a very safe manner. He will continue to drop til his main army manages to set up a semi-contain, forcing zerg to attack it in a very non-cost effective way. Not to mention, with his great multi-tasking, all his marines drops will be focus firing on banelings and mutas, to keep the muta count low. Why do you think so many zergs have fallen to him when they already knew his preferred tactics in mid-late game. The only ways zerg can stop him is to first have a large enough economic advantage, either start being aggressive with its higher food count and pin MMA back into his base preventing his forces from spreading thin, or invest in static defences that do not require food thus allowing zerg army to concentrate its forces to slow down advance of terran's army. Overlord spread and mutas counter drops. You are banking on the fact that the zerg does not see the drop or does not split his forces correctly. His macro being perfect? Watch some sc1 for perfect macro. No one in sc2 has remotely close to perfect macro. I hardly see someone like bomber drop down supplies but people like MMA does. So if MMA has perfect macro, someone like bomber, who has better macro, must be god? Doesn't make sense to me. Drop play is good, sure, but what if the zerg pinpoints your drops with good map awareness and responds perfectly? Do you still think his drops will be nearly as effective? People were underestimating Polt and saying that Polt will get 4-0ed thinking that MMA's play is flawless. But guess what, Polt was the one who analyzed MMA well and completely steamrolled MMA. Give some zerg time to study MMA's style for a while and I can almost assure you that his drop play won't be nearly as effective or great as many people think.
Muta can't be at multiple place at the same time. If you do a double drop, muta has to try to clean 1 of them, or harass the base. How many times in the game you see Losira, July or IdrA can harass MMA's base with muta?
That's the point of doing drops. Zerg only have muta to solve drop play in mid game, and by keeping doing drop, you are telling zerg: "Hey dude, somewhere out there are my medivacs drop. Now what are you going to do? Muta harass my base and can't stop my double drop? Use muta to snipe 1 medivac and leave my base alone? Throw all your army at my main army so that I can double drop you? Try to clean up my 2 drops and leave me safely expand/ cleaning creep tumors?"
Of course it would be great if he can sneak his medivacs in and do great damage to zerg's weak point. But he doesn't bank on that. He's not afraid to show his medivacs. When he see a spotting overlord, zerglings, he will drop marines and clean them up. He tries to keep the zerg honest and I
think he does pretty good job at it.
MMA is not definitely overrated, but he has weakness, and he got exploited. I'm not saying his tvz play is perfect. but it's solid, that's why it earned him MLG champion.
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On June 24 2011 10:24 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 09:37 WindCalibur wrote:On June 24 2011 09:01 babysimba wrote:On June 24 2011 08:14 WindCalibur wrote:
I will be honest and say that I personally think MMA is overrated.
Go watch his MLG replays and watch him get supply blocked again and again. His mechanics are weak and though his apm is high, most of it is probably spam. His "drop" play is a hindrance. Let me explain why:
1. Drops are used to be cost in effective in the sense that you disrupt economy or pick off weak points that you can't access otherwise. When you try to do this, you must try to pinpoint weak points. MMA skips this step and just drops at locations that are not only predictable, but aren't the zerg's weakpoints. In addition, even when mutas are out and the zerg has complete map control, he still drops. MMA is banking on the opponent to make mistakes, in which is not dependant on MMA's skills, but rather his opponent's skills to react.
2. His style usually gets him a fast 3rd. Dropping leaves him open to aggression. Watch July vs him on metropolis where july abuses a strong timing where MMA is extremely weak. Though July lost that game, MMA was behind after the aggression.
So his strategies rely on his opponent to "not know" what he is doing in addition to the opponent making mistakes. His play is hardly what you call solid. His high apm comes from constantly cycling of production buildings. His late game macro (once >3 bases, not adding any more supply depots and production buildings) is close to perfect. I remember seeing his replay against july. He constantly switches to raxes to produce more marines while controlling 2 drops and moving his main army at the same time. While he was cleaning up july's remaining army at the final moments, he was still adding more rines in his raxes while his rines are being microed back to kite banelings -_- His drops do not bank on the opponent making mistakes. He is definitely the best terran out there who utilise drops. You do not see him dropping just for the sake of forcing his oppoenent into a game of multi-tasking. Everytime he does multi-pronged drops, he will force zerg's army to split up, allowing his main army to move to clean up creep tumours and push up the tank line in a very safe manner. He will continue to drop til his main army manages to set up a semi-contain, forcing zerg to attack it in a very non-cost effective way. Not to mention, with his great multi-tasking, all his marines drops will be focus firing on banelings and mutas, to keep the muta count low. Why do you think so many zergs have fallen to him when they already knew his preferred tactics in mid-late game. The only ways zerg can stop him is to first have a large enough economic advantage, either start being aggressive with its higher food count and pin MMA back into his base preventing his forces from spreading thin, or invest in static defences that do not require food thus allowing zerg army to concentrate its forces to slow down advance of terran's army. Overlord spread and mutas counter drops. You are banking on the fact that the zerg does not see the drop or does not split his forces correctly. His macro being perfect? Watch some sc1 for perfect macro. No one in sc2 has remotely close to perfect macro. I hardly see someone like bomber drop down supplies but people like MMA does. So if MMA has perfect macro, someone like bomber, who has better macro, must be god? Doesn't make sense to me. Drop play is good, sure, but what if the zerg pinpoints your drops with good map awareness and responds perfectly? Do you still think his drops will be nearly as effective? People were underestimating Polt and saying that Polt will get 4-0ed thinking that MMA's play is flawless. But guess what, Polt was the one who analyzed MMA well and completely steamrolled MMA. Give some zerg time to study MMA's style for a while and I can almost assure you that his drop play won't be nearly as effective or great as many people think. Muta can't be at multiple place at the same time. If you do a double drop, muta has to try to clean 1 of them, or harass the base. How many times in the game you see Losira, July or IdrA can harass MMA's base with muta? By keeping muta busy with drops, they won't get into your base and cause lots of damage. That's the point of doing drops. Zerg only have muta to solve drop play in mid game, and by keeping doing drop, you are telling zerg: "Hey dude, somewhere out there are my medivacs drop. Now what are you going to do? Muta harass my base and can't stop my double drop? Use muta to snipe 1 medivac and leave my base alone? Throw all your army at my main army so that I can double drop you? Try to clean up my 2 drops and leave me safely expand/ cleaning creep tumors?" Of course it would be great if he can sneak his medivacs in and do great damage to zerg's weak point. But he doesn't bank on that. He's not afraid to show his medivacs. When he see a spotting overlord, zerglings, he will drop marines and clean them up. He tries to keep the zerg honest and I think he does pretty good job at it. MMA is not definitely overrated, but he has weakness, and he got exploited. I'm not saying his tvz play is perfect. but it's solid, that's why it earned him MLG champion.
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On June 24 2011 05:46 MinoMino wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 04:26 andrewlt wrote:On June 23 2011 21:55 MinoMino wrote:On June 23 2011 21:53 asperger wrote:On June 23 2011 21:15 MinoMino wrote:DRG SC2 bonjwa in the making. Excellent day for my FPL, with both Alicia and DRG. Was calling an Alicia 3-kill and DRG reverse AK, so I guess I wasn't too far off.  On June 23 2011 20:35 asperger wrote:
I'm just waiting for the "I think DRG could be a bonjwa, guys" discussion. Motherfucker. I still don't get the whole thing about getting angry for shouting "X for bonjwa" in the midst of the hype. But that's just me, I guess. Bonjwa is the equivalent of stating "next Michael Jordan". It doesn't just mean somebody is good. It means somebody is in the discussion of GOAT. It's annoying when people exaggerate and overhype to a ridiculous degree. You don't see basketball commentators hype everybody who scored 30 points in a game the next Jordan. There's a reason there was a backlash when Pippen called Lebron better than Jordan before he even won a single championship. Same reason here. I don't follow basketball, so I wouldn't know about your examples, but I believe it's more or less the same chokke was arguing for, so my posts after the one you quoted has my view on your point.
A lot of people get offended when bonjwa is misused because of the memories attached to actual BW bonjwas.
Imagine a player that's so good, they single-handedly make their race look completely imbalanced. They're so good you forget how to win. They're so good you copy their every decision, their every build, without even questioning why. They're so good every other pro player looks terrible in comparison. They're so good the entire world is developing strategies to specifically beat their builds. They're so good, when you play them they don't kill your units, they kill your confidence and your determination and your spirit.
These people exist in brood war. Can you honestly name anyone who would fit this description in SC2?
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On June 24 2011 10:15 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 10:08 babylon wrote:On June 24 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:On June 24 2011 10:00 zor.au wrote:
DRG is just a beast - his macro + micro just seems so good as well as his decision making.
Its a pity he didn't make code a (& code S). I would love to see more of his games. His baneling landlines are just as good as Nesteas (not just his games last night but vs scforu in the special tournament).
How did he get knocked out from the Code A run? Cheesed by toss or is his ZvP weak? His ZvP is weak, from what I've seen. I don't think it's atrocious, but maybe at the same level as NesTea's ZvT. It's definitely his worst match-up in any case, and oGsHero is pretty damn strong. Also, he had to play a beastly long base-trade game against qxc immediately before playing oGsHero, which probably didn't help at all. Err no, Nestea has amazing ZvT. Arguably the best in the world. Just because he had an off day vs an excellent player in TOP does not mean his ZvT is not top-notch.
NesTea's ZvT is his worst match-up by far. I'm not saying his ZvT is bad by any rate ("bad" being at around the same level as LosirA's ZvT ...), but it's at least two notches below his ZvZ and his ZvP. (The same way that I think DRG's ZvP is at least two notches below his ZvT. Dunno about his ZvZ, though DRG says he thinks it's about equal to his ZvT, so.)
I mean, sure, NesTea had an off-day against TOP. So what? I mean, without even counting that he lost against TOP, when you look at his ZvT record, it's really not that impressive. Sure, NesTea beat sC (who has a pretty scary TvZ), but sC threw away Game 5 on Crossfire - it was definitely an epic game, but I don't know how you can watch it and say that he didn't throw it away when he didn't even try to get an expo up because he thought he'd had it won - and his games vs. Bomber were ... not especially impressive, considering Bomber also did not play his best.
I mean, I'm not even a DRG fan - I was actually happyish he didn't make it through qualifiers because the hype was getting annoying ... and also because I don't really like DRG's playstyle, lol - but I think DRG's ZvT is far stronger than NesTea's ZvT. Just my opinion though, and you're free to hold your own.
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On June 24 2011 10:34 babylon wrote:I mean, I'm not even a DRG fan - I was actually happyish he didn't make it through qualifiers
You are a bad person, in case you didn't know.
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On June 24 2011 10:38 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 10:34 babylon wrote:I mean, I'm not even a DRG fan - I was actually happyish he didn't make it through qualifiers You are a bad person, in case you didn't know.
I know. Forgive me.  Maybe if I see a few more games of his, I'll be convinced, but until then, I haven't really bought into the hype.
I actually did feel bad for feeling happy when he didn't qualify, JSYK. Especially when I realized Choya, of all people, had gotten through somehow.
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On June 24 2011 10:38 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 10:34 babylon wrote:I mean, I'm not even a DRG fan - I was actually happyish he didn't make it through qualifiers You are a bad person, in case you didn't know.
Not really. People are already calling him a fucking bonjwa. I hope he never wins a game for the next few months if this is going to be how he is praised
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On June 24 2011 08:01 1Eris1 wrote:
Really questionable decisions by Slayer's coaches. DRG just beat one of the top 5 terran in the world in a bo5 and then lost to a mediocre (compared to code S players) protoss in the GSL qualifiers, but slayers decides to throw terran players at him instead of protoss players. Idk, MMA obviously could beat him, but I think a protoss would have been a much better decision then ganzi
The problem I think was in the decision to use Alicia first. He should not have been a starter - I much prefer the previous calls to use a player like Taeja to begin (especially since the first player was only Nobelese).
Alicia being the only decent protoss player on the team (and Frozen as a backup sniper), should have been saved exclusively for DRG.
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DAMNIT MMA, ruining Boxer's return.
So sad........................
GOGO SLAYERS!
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On June 24 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 10:00 zor.au wrote:
DRG is just a beast - his macro + micro just seems so good as well as his decision making.
Its a pity he didn't make code a (& code S). I would love to see more of his games. His baneling landlines are just as good as Nesteas (not just his games last night but vs scforu in the special tournament).
How did he get knocked out from the Code A run? Cheesed by toss or is his ZvP weak?
He has admitted that in his opinion, his ZvP is clearly his weakest matchup, while both his ZvT and ZvZ are at similar levels (which I would say is pretty damn good).
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On June 24 2011 10:31 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 05:46 MinoMino wrote:On June 24 2011 04:26 andrewlt wrote:On June 23 2011 21:55 MinoMino wrote:On June 23 2011 21:53 asperger wrote:On June 23 2011 21:15 MinoMino wrote:DRG SC2 bonjwa in the making. Excellent day for my FPL, with both Alicia and DRG. Was calling an Alicia 3-kill and DRG reverse AK, so I guess I wasn't too far off. On June 23 2011 20:35 asperger wrote:
I'm just waiting for the "I think DRG could be a bonjwa, guys" discussion. Motherfucker. I still don't get the whole thing about getting angry for shouting "X for bonjwa" in the midst of the hype. But that's just me, I guess. Bonjwa is the equivalent of stating "next Michael Jordan". It doesn't just mean somebody is good. It means somebody is in the discussion of GOAT. It's annoying when people exaggerate and overhype to a ridiculous degree. You don't see basketball commentators hype everybody who scored 30 points in a game the next Jordan. There's a reason there was a backlash when Pippen called Lebron better than Jordan before he even won a single championship. Same reason here. I don't follow basketball, so I wouldn't know about your examples, but I believe it's more or less the same chokke was arguing for, so my posts after the one you quoted has my view on your point. A lot of people get offended when bonjwa is misused because of the memories attached to actual BW bonjwas. Imagine a player that's so good, they single-handedly make their race look completely imbalanced. They're so good you forget how to win. They're so good you copy their every decision, their every build, without even questioning why. They're so good every other pro player looks terrible in comparison. They're so good the entire world is developing strategies to specifically beat their builds. They're so good, when you play them they don't kill your units, they kill your confidence and your determination and your spirit. These people exist in brood war. Can you honestly name anyone who would fit this description in SC2?
You also forgot that this player is so good that whenever he enters a match, you automatically say he's going to win. Whenever he enters a tournament, you automatically assume he's going to get to the finals, if not win it. This is a player that is so good that he makes maps look imbalanced in favor of his race, no matter what the actual case is.
People throw around praise far, far too lightly in SC2. Stuff like this needs to be earned.
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On June 24 2011 10:49 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 10:38 fourColo wrote:On June 24 2011 10:34 babylon wrote:I mean, I'm not even a DRG fan - I was actually happyish he didn't make it through qualifiers You are a bad person, in case you didn't know. Not really. People are already calling him a fucking bonjwa. I hope he never wins a game for the next few months if this is going to be how he is praised
People are throwing the term bonjwa left and right, a player is good for couple of weeks or month, suddenly they are bonjwa. Flash's achievement of being bonjwa was to be in 7 finals of major tournament (1 WCG, 3OSL, 3MSL) in a row. I don't see anyone who's been in 2 finals in a row in SC2 yet.
Alos DRG and MVP preformed great for me in the league last night. Here to hope IMHappy AK Fou, and somehow ST sends Bomber as their starter because that's the only way for him to get points since I foresee an AK
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United States15275 Posts
People actually think DRG is a bonjwa? Pssssssh.
Here's how you know a player is a bonjwa:
- He wins close to every tournament he enters.
- He dominates all his opponents for a very long period of time.
- His original playstyle radically changes the metagame of a specific matchup or the approach to his race as a whole. Features of his individual style are assimilated by the professional community and eventually becomes the norm.
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Just watched game 7 of the series
+ Show Spoiler +
and I've got to say, I was VERY, VERY disappointed when the british soccer guy commentator didn't yell something like "goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool" when the baneling bombs exploded at the third.
tsktsk
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On June 24 2011 12:09 maryelizbethwinstead wrote:Just watched game 7 of the series + Show Spoiler +and I've got to say, I was VERY, VERY disappointed when the british soccer guy commentator didn't yell something like "goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool" when the baneling bombs exploded at the third. tsktsk
British football/soccer are nothing compared to their Italian counterparts, they actually do not need to take a breathe to continue shouting.
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Nobody thinks anyone is a B-word, unless you're crazy or you didn't follow BW. Why are you guys even discussing that. ):
That said, the games were good, the series was rather good, BoxeR won, everything was good. GSTL off to a very good start. I love proleague.
I really like DRG's muta style too, I love players with style. Now that we're getting really, truly GOOD players, people are developing styles, like MMA's drop aggression (no planetaries!).
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On June 24 2011 12:15 DeckOneBell wrote:
Nobody thinks anyone is a B-word, unless you're crazy or you didn't follow BW. Why are you guys even discussing that. ):
That said, the games were good, the series was rather good, BoxeR won, everything was good. GSTL off to a very good start. I love proleague.
I really like DRG's muta style too, I love players with style. Now that we're getting really, truly GOOD players, people are developing styles, like MMA's drop aggression (no planetaries!).
There are many people, mainly the new SC2 crowd (granted, i am one of them as well, but I still did some research on the bw wiki before commenting on the subject) who think that bonjwa just mean an awesome player.
Also I am soo hooked on BW.
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EPT
