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Enough with the racism discussions, this is a LR Thread. Cut it out. -- updated 7:55 KST
On June 06 2011 11:22 Fionn wrote: Jeez, some of you guys are ridiculous.
When Jinro went back-to-back in GSL semifinals, did the Koreans get all mad because he didn't speak fluent Korean in interviews? Were they mad because some random white kid they never heard of was doing so well against their all powerful Koreans?
No. The Korean fans embraced Jinro, got behind him, and even rooted for him against other Koreans.
It would be awesome if others could do the same.
You're missing the point. The potential fall out of continuing Korean domination is the discouragement it could cause to the foreign players. If they feel they don't have a chance then why play the game at a professional level at all? The skill between the foreigners/Koreans isn't really that close. Look at the domination of the Koreans that came over. 3 out of the top 4 spots with the one Korean being knocked out by one of his countryman. Think of what the top 8 would of looked like if MKP, MVP, Bomber, and Nestea showed up. The best foreign players (small number) are equal at best with mid-tier Koreans.
Besides the top 10-15 foreign players, none of the other ones can even be considered professional as they don't play full-time. Maybe the foreign scene should start taking itself seriously and play full-time if it wants to compete in Korea with a scene that plays full time and takes it seriously. Those top 10-15 players already know they can compete at a low Code S level (maybe not with the big boys like Losira, MMA and MC yet) and I doubt they will be discouraged by this tournament. The rest of the foreigners should be motivated to practice more, so they can be considered professional gamers first, instead of just hobby gamers who practice for 1 week before a major LAN.
I'm not sure if you realize this but just because the top foreigners decide to "take themselves seriously" and "practice more", it still isn't going to change anything unless they're magically given a fully funded team house with 10+ players who are just as good or better than themselves along with a coach and managers to help facilitate their practice.
+1
The infrastructure is just not there for the NA/EU scenes and I fear it will never be. E-sports is a niche interest and I don't see it growing much bigger. Out of the hundreds of people that I know...I am pretty sure I am the only uber sc2 nerd who watches professional sc2 games.
On June 06 2011 11:22 Fionn wrote: Jeez, some of you guys are ridiculous.
When Jinro went back-to-back in GSL semifinals, did the Koreans get all mad because he didn't speak fluent Korean in interviews? Were they mad because some random white kid they never heard of was doing so well against their all powerful Koreans?
No. The Korean fans embraced Jinro, got behind him, and even rooted for him against other Koreans.
It would be awesome if others could do the same.
You're missing the point. The potential fall out of continuing Korean domination is the discouragement it could cause to the foreign players. If they feel they don't have a chance then why play the game at a professional level at all? The skill between the foreigners/Koreans isn't really that close. Look at the domination of the Koreans that came over. 3 out of the top 4 spots with the one Korean being knocked out by one of his countryman. Think of what the top 8 would of looked like if MKP, MVP, Bomber, and Nestea showed up. The best foreign players (small number) are equal at best with mid-tier Koreans.
Besides the top 10-15 foreign players, none of the other ones can even be considered professional as they don't play full-time. Maybe the foreign scene should start taking itself seriously and play full-time if it wants to compete in Korea with a scene that plays full time and takes it seriously. Those top 10-15 players already know they can compete at a low Code S level (maybe not with the big boys like Losira, MMA and MC yet) and I doubt they will be discouraged by this tournament. The rest of the foreigners should be motivated to practice more, so they can be considered professional gamers first, instead of just hobby gamers who practice for 1 week before a major LAN.
I'm not sure if you realize this but just because the top foreigners decide to "take themselves seriously" and "practice more", it still isn't going to change anything unless they're magically given a fully funded team house with 10+ players who are just as good or better than themselves along with a coach and managers to help facilitate their practice.
+1
The infrastructure is just not there for the NA/EU scenes and I fear it will never be. E-sports is a niche interest and I don't see it growing much bigger. Out of the hundreds of people that I know...I am pretty sure I am the only uber sc2 nerd who watches professional sc2 games.
4 out of my 5 roommates watch it with me
My best mate watches GSL every night now from his own house, and he doesn't own or play SC2, and never played Brood War...
On June 06 2011 11:22 Fionn wrote: Jeez, some of you guys are ridiculous.
When Jinro went back-to-back in GSL semifinals, did the Koreans get all mad because he didn't speak fluent Korean in interviews? Were they mad because some random white kid they never heard of was doing so well against their all powerful Koreans?
No. The Korean fans embraced Jinro, got behind him, and even rooted for him against other Koreans.
It would be awesome if others could do the same.
You're missing the point. The potential fall out of continuing Korean domination is the discouragement it could cause to the foreign players. If they feel they don't have a chance then why play the game at a professional level at all? The skill between the foreigners/Koreans isn't really that close. Look at the domination of the Koreans that came over. 3 out of the top 4 spots with the one Korean being knocked out by one of his countryman. Think of what the top 8 would of looked like if MKP, MVP, Bomber, and Nestea showed up. The best foreign players (small number) are equal at best with mid-tier Koreans.
Besides the top 10-15 foreign players, none of the other ones can even be considered professional as they don't play full-time. Maybe the foreign scene should start taking itself seriously and play full-time if it wants to compete in Korea with a scene that plays full time and takes it seriously. Those top 10-15 players already know they can compete at a low Code S level (maybe not with the big boys like Losira, MMA and MC yet) and I doubt they will be discouraged by this tournament. The rest of the foreigners should be motivated to practice more, so they can be considered professional gamers first, instead of just hobby gamers who practice for 1 week before a major LAN.
I'm not sure if you realize this but just because the top foreigners decide to "take themselves seriously" and "practice more", it still isn't going to change anything unless they're magically given a fully funded team house with 10+ players who are just as good or better than themselves along with a coach and managers to help facilitate their practice.
+1
The infrastructure is just not there for the NA/EU scenes and I fear it will never be. E-sports is a niche interest and I don't see it growing much bigger. Out of the hundreds of people that I know...I am pretty sure I am the only uber sc2 nerd who watches professional sc2 games.
4 out of my 5 roommates watch it with me
My best mate watches GSL every night now from his own house, and he doesn't own or play SC2, and never played Brood War...
I watched it with my 2 roommates. We try to catch as much of the GSL/NASL/MLG as we can :/ Guess we're just nerds
On June 06 2011 14:07 ImmortalTofu wrote: My only comment is that... MC is falling off ( I'm not sure if he has it in him anymore to win another GSL with this performance.... In the meantime, great job MMA!
I think they should make the series longer for the semis (best of 5), best of three at that level doesnt seem like enough, and they should take out extended series too in accordance with that!
MC falling off 'cause he lost a close series with the second best ZvP in the world (after Nestea). No, just no.
Falling off wouldnt be the right word... I'm actually just saying that for a guy who seems to have the best PvZ in the world, you shouldn't be losing to the 2nd best ZvP'er in the world. Maybe it was because he was exhausted (he did have to play a lot of games). He's still beastly, but I don't think we can call him the apex of toss ATM. He seems to be tied with Alicia, but Toss in general isn't doing so well in GSL or MLG (This is not a balance whine, this is a simple observation) Hopefully we'll see some innovation soon!
On June 06 2011 14:07 ImmortalTofu wrote: My only comment is that... MC is falling off ( I'm not sure if he has it in him anymore to win another GSL with this performance.... In the meantime, great job MMA!
I think they should make the series longer for the semis (best of 5), best of three at that level doesnt seem like enough, and they should take out extended series too in accordance with that!
MC falling off 'cause he lost a close series with the second best ZvP in the world (after Nestea). No, just no.
Falling off wouldnt be the right word... I'm actually just saying that for a guy who seems to have the best PvZ in the world, you shouldn't be losing to the 2nd best ZvP'er in the world. Maybe it was because he was exhausted (he did have to play a lot of games). He's still beastly, but I don't think we can call him the apex of toss ATM. He seems to be tied with Alicia, but Toss in general isn't doing so well in GSL or MLG (This is not a balance whine, this is a simple observation) Hopefully we'll see some innovation soon!
I don't know. Ever since he lost to DRG, I'm not sure I think he is the best PvZ in the world.... I think he is just top 3 PvX, whereas there might be players who are more exploitive in certain matches (think InCa for PvP, or Alicia maybe in PvT?). Also, current state of the korean metagame has Zerg in massive favour in ZvP anywho, so it isn't totally out of the ordinary for MC to lose to Losira.
I see MMA got 5k as a winner. And Losira only 2.5k for the second place? Light weight, light weight, guys. Both of these guys have slight chance of winning supertournament anyway, but I hope their travel expenses were covered separately.
On June 06 2011 14:07 ImmortalTofu wrote: My only comment is that... MC is falling off ( I'm not sure if he has it in him anymore to win another GSL with this performance.... In the meantime, great job MMA!
I think they should make the series longer for the semis (best of 5), best of three at that level doesnt seem like enough, and they should take out extended series too in accordance with that!
MC falling off 'cause he lost a close series with the second best ZvP in the world (after Nestea). No, just no.
Falling off wouldnt be the right word... I'm actually just saying that for a guy who seems to have the best PvZ in the world, you shouldn't be losing to the 2nd best ZvP'er in the world. Maybe it was because he was exhausted (he did have to play a lot of games). He's still beastly, but I don't think we can call him the apex of toss ATM. He seems to be tied with Alicia, but Toss in general isn't doing so well in GSL or MLG (This is not a balance whine, this is a simple observation) Hopefully we'll see some innovation soon!
I don't know. Ever since he lost to DRG, I'm not sure I think he is the best PvZ in the world.... I think he is just top 3 PvX, whereas there might be players who are more exploitive in certain matches (think InCa for PvP, or Alicia maybe in PvT?). Also, current state of the korean metagame has Zerg in massive favour in ZvP anywho, so it isn't totally out of the ordinary for MC to lose to Losira.
I agree with this, however, may I ask who you think is better in PvZ? An honest question, not a jab at your answer, it is very well reasoned
Wow just finished watching almost all vods, I must say I'm so buying a pass for next MLG just to support, they did an amazing job, I'm also really amazed by MMA's play even though I hate harass by terrans.
And IdrA I'm still waiting for you to kick some ass, the only foreigner always top with Koreans.
Will so be attending MLG Orlando, 4 hours away from here :>
On June 06 2011 14:07 ImmortalTofu wrote: My only comment is that... MC is falling off ( I'm not sure if he has it in him anymore to win another GSL with this performance.... In the meantime, great job MMA!
I think they should make the series longer for the semis (best of 5), best of three at that level doesnt seem like enough, and they should take out extended series too in accordance with that!
MC falling off 'cause he lost a close series with the second best ZvP in the world (after Nestea). No, just no.
Falling off wouldnt be the right word... I'm actually just saying that for a guy who seems to have the best PvZ in the world, you shouldn't be losing to the 2nd best ZvP'er in the world. Maybe it was because he was exhausted (he did have to play a lot of games). He's still beastly, but I don't think we can call him the apex of toss ATM. He seems to be tied with Alicia, but Toss in general isn't doing so well in GSL or MLG (This is not a balance whine, this is a simple observation) Hopefully we'll see some innovation soon!
I don't know. Ever since he lost to DRG, I'm not sure I think he is the best PvZ in the world.... I think he is just top 3 PvX, whereas there might be players who are more exploitive in certain matches (think InCa for PvP, or Alicia maybe in PvT?). Also, current state of the korean metagame has Zerg in massive favour in ZvP anywho, so it isn't totally out of the ordinary for MC to lose to Losira.
I agree with this, however, may I ask who you think is better in PvZ? An honest question, not a jab at your answer, it is very well reasoned
can someone help me defend idra on r/starcraft? he needs support during this time but everyone is just bashing him =( why are people so mean? please help me.
On June 06 2011 14:39 Golgotha wrote: can someone help me defend idra on r/starcraft? he needs support during this time but everyone is just bashing him =( why are people so mean? please help me.
Maybe cause IdrA is mean Lol and kind of stupid sometimes
On June 06 2011 14:39 Golgotha wrote: can someone help me defend idra on r/starcraft? he needs support during this time but everyone is just bashing him =( why are people so mean? please help me.
On June 06 2011 14:07 ImmortalTofu wrote: My only comment is that... MC is falling off ( I'm not sure if he has it in him anymore to win another GSL with this performance.... In the meantime, great job MMA!
I think they should make the series longer for the semis (best of 5), best of three at that level doesnt seem like enough, and they should take out extended series too in accordance with that!
MC falling off 'cause he lost a close series with the second best ZvP in the world (after Nestea). No, just no.
Falling off wouldnt be the right word... I'm actually just saying that for a guy who seems to have the best PvZ in the world, you shouldn't be losing to the 2nd best ZvP'er in the world. Maybe it was because he was exhausted (he did have to play a lot of games). He's still beastly, but I don't think we can call him the apex of toss ATM. He seems to be tied with Alicia, but Toss in general isn't doing so well in GSL or MLG (This is not a balance whine, this is a simple observation) Hopefully we'll see some innovation soon!
I don't know. Ever since he lost to DRG, I'm not sure I think he is the best PvZ in the world.... I think he is just top 3 PvX, whereas there might be players who are more exploitive in certain matches (think InCa for PvP, or Alicia maybe in PvT?). Also, current state of the korean metagame has Zerg in massive favour in ZvP anywho, so it isn't totally out of the ordinary for MC to lose to Losira.
I agree with this, however, may I ask who you think is better in PvZ? An honest question, not a jab at your answer, it is very well reasoned
Hmm Interesting... I say that SangHo cannot literally be above MC in terms of PvZ though. He has quite a few wins but against who? Check and JookTo Lolololololl... Hmmm... MC's PvZ did look amazingly solid against IdrA though in his 4-0 (at least to all-ins trolol)... I think that with that quality of PvZ against that level of a player, MC would have to be considered best, though that's not a high position ATM lol... Those builds that he did looked quite interesting, and if Losira had not responded so perfectly to the void rays in games 1 and 3, MC would have won. If that build and his 3 zealot pressure, along with his normal solidness could be all mixed together (with the stargate build being slightly less common and counterable) then he will do quite well against Zerg I would think.
TLDR: MC has best PvZ. Would be great if he mixed all of his builds and varied them more. PvZ right now in general is bad, but MC is moving in the right direction.
On June 06 2011 14:39 Golgotha wrote: can someone help me defend idra on r/starcraft? he needs support during this time but everyone is just bashing him =( why are people so mean? please help me.
Uhhh....no.
meanies. just you watch. idra will come back with a vengeance. then you will wish you would have helped him!
EPT
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