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@MoonBear I voted no in the "If you had a guide to LR-ing, would you LR?" poll because english is not my main language, and my knowledge of the game is kind of limited.
Anyway thank you for doing today's LR
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I think that part of the reason players like Thorzain is able to do so well with only a few weeks of preparation is that the bar for mechanics in SC 2 is significantly lower than in BW. Thus, people with solid RTS backgrounds, like Thorzain, are able to reach that level without years of practice, and the main thing that they have to prepare is strategy, game sense, and match-up understanding. Winning in SC 2 is much more about having good tactics and decision making abilities than it is about being able to sustain 300 APM through a match because you have to individually click each one of your SCVs and tell them to mine.
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On May 08 2011 05:05 Aristodemus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:03 Haydin wrote:On May 08 2011 05:02 Incoherence wrote:On May 08 2011 04:59 udgnim wrote:
guarantee more people are going to watch PvP tomorrow than today's awesome TvT lol Yeah, it sucks that that's the case, because PvP is yawntastic. Even Naniwa and HasuObs can't save us from the boredom of having to watch two players follow the same tech tree.  Someone didn't watch cruncher vs naniwa. Try Joe vrs MC from Copenhagen too, that was intense.
MC vs who?
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On May 08 2011 05:18 Sneakyz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:17 Nijel wrote:
And Bomber or Mvp would never be supply blocked that often lol.
At which point Thorzain was supply blocked ? It happened once or twice to Empire.Kas. Nah, to be fair he got supply blocket quite a bit.
well to be fair, I think its the game that cant keep up with TZ, not the other way around.
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On May 08 2011 05:21 Azarkon wrote:
I think that part of the reason players like Thorzain is able to do so well with only a few weeks of preparation is that the bar for mechanics in SC 2 is significantly lower than in BW. Thus, people with solid RTS backgrounds, like Thorzain, are able to reach that level without years of practice, and the main thing that they have to prepare is strategy, game sense, and match-up understanding. Winning in SC 2 is much more about having good tactics and decision making abilities than it is about being able to sustain 300 APM through a match because you have to individually click each one of your SCVs and tell them to mine.
I can't tell if you think this is a good thing, or a bad thing, or just the way it is.
Personally, I would rather have an emphasis on "strategy, game sense, and match-up understanding" than on mechanics to make-up for old AI.
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On May 08 2011 05:21 Shalaiyn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:05 Aristodemus wrote:On May 08 2011 05:03 Haydin wrote:On May 08 2011 05:02 Incoherence wrote:On May 08 2011 04:59 udgnim wrote:
guarantee more people are going to watch PvP tomorrow than today's awesome TvT lol Yeah, it sucks that that's the case, because PvP is yawntastic. Even Naniwa and HasuObs can't save us from the boredom of having to watch two players follow the same tech tree. Someone didn't watch cruncher vs naniwa. Try Joe vrs MC from Copenhagen too, that was intense. MC vs who?
MC vs Joe...
Also, I thought this was Bo7? It only shows ThorZain 3-1.
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On May 08 2011 05:01 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 04:59 insaneMicro wrote:
ThorZain beat MC ffs.
For me, he's no longer the underdog vs anyone. After this run, I think it's fair to rank him up there with the world's best terrans like MVP, MarineKing or SC2 NaDa. IMO his strength seems to be preparing for a specific matchups, I wonder how he will do in a tournaments with lots of games in a short period of time
Well take a look at the resaults form the Gathering a couple of weeks ago.
I think he ended up 8'th (cant find the results right now) , in a rather weak lineup to be honest thoguh.
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On May 08 2011 05:27 Aic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:01 hugman wrote:On May 08 2011 04:59 insaneMicro wrote:
ThorZain beat MC ffs.
For me, he's no longer the underdog vs anyone. After this run, I think it's fair to rank him up there with the world's best terrans like MVP, MarineKing or SC2 NaDa. IMO his strength seems to be preparing for a specific matchups, I wonder how he will do in a tournaments with lots of games in a short period of time Well take a look at the resaults form the Gathering a couple of weeks ago. I think he ended up 8'th (cant find the results right now) , in a rather weak lineup to be honest thoguh.
He lost to his teammate.
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On May 08 2011 05:16 TYJ.Aoy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:14 TheBanana wrote:On May 08 2011 05:05 Guthix wrote:On May 08 2011 05:02 Kazang wrote:
These european Terrans are off the charts good. Even more impressive than MVP or Bomber imo. Lol I don't think thorzain or kas could take a game off of either Mvp or Bomber. Yes they do well in the TSL, but I don't think you realize how much better Mvp and Bomber are. The european terrans are most definitely the best in the foreign world, but korean terrans would probably wreck them. Not according to MC. He said EU terrans are better than Koreans but Koreans has better Zs and Ps. And also you can say what you want about Mvp vs Bomber but none of those games could hold a candle to game 5 of Kas vs Thorzain. Bomber and MVP on the same map had basically one clunk of units each that they moved around IIRC, Kas and Thorzain were all over the place. The argument is really that MVP and Bomber are better because they have korean passports, I disagree. All those 4 players could beat each other(Unless you give Thorzain preparation-time  ). No, just no, won't even read the rest.
In comparison, yes just yes, go watch it.
I just did a speed-rewatch to make sure I remembered correctly, I stand by what I said.
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On May 08 2011 05:26 SolonTLG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:21 Azarkon wrote:
I think that part of the reason players like Thorzain is able to do so well with only a few weeks of preparation is that the bar for mechanics in SC 2 is significantly lower than in BW. Thus, people with solid RTS backgrounds, like Thorzain, are able to reach that level without years of practice, and the main thing that they have to prepare is strategy, game sense, and match-up understanding. Winning in SC 2 is much more about having good tactics and decision making abilities than it is about being able to sustain 300 APM through a match because you have to individually click each one of your SCVs and tell them to mine. I can't tell if you think this is a good thing, or a bad thing, or just the way it is. Personally, I would rather have an emphasis on "strategy, game sense, and match-up understanding" than on mechanics to make-up for old AI.
Just the way it is. Some people, like IdrA, prefer it the other way because then they can reap their extensive mechanics training and not lose to players who haven't practiced as long. I could see that point of view, but I could also see why you'd want a RTS to emphasize the mind games and strategic aspects rather than the physical mechanics.
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On May 08 2011 05:11 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:10 hifriend wrote:On May 08 2011 05:05 Guthix wrote:On May 08 2011 05:02 Kazang wrote:
These european Terrans are off the charts good. Even more impressive than MVP or Bomber imo. Lol I don't think thorzain or kas could take a game off of either Mvp or Bomber. Yes they do well in the TSL, but I don't think you realize how much better Mvp and Bomber are. The european terrans are most definitely the best in the foreign world, but korean terrans would probably wreck them. MC thinks european terrans are better than korean terrans. That must be why he crushed Kas and lost to Polt!
That must be why he crushed MKP and lost to Thorzain!
Wow! Taking things in isolated context is fun and very accurate!
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On May 08 2011 05:30 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:11 Telcontar wrote:On May 08 2011 05:10 hifriend wrote:On May 08 2011 05:05 Guthix wrote:On May 08 2011 05:02 Kazang wrote:
These european Terrans are off the charts good. Even more impressive than MVP or Bomber imo. Lol I don't think thorzain or kas could take a game off of either Mvp or Bomber. Yes they do well in the TSL, but I don't think you realize how much better Mvp and Bomber are. The european terrans are most definitely the best in the foreign world, but korean terrans would probably wreck them. MC thinks european terrans are better than korean terrans. That must be why he crushed Kas and lost to Polt! That must be why he crushed MKP and lost to Thorzain! Wow! Taking things in isolated context is fun and very accurate!
I can't seem to remember MC crushing MKP.
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I was hoping for ThorZaIN to win so badly, but before the games started I honestly didn't think he would, but after game 1 I knew it was possible! :D Now please Naniwa also win!
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On May 08 2011 05:28 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:27 Aic wrote:On May 08 2011 05:01 hugman wrote:On May 08 2011 04:59 insaneMicro wrote:
ThorZain beat MC ffs.
For me, he's no longer the underdog vs anyone. After this run, I think it's fair to rank him up there with the world's best terrans like MVP, MarineKing or SC2 NaDa. IMO his strength seems to be preparing for a specific matchups, I wonder how he will do in a tournaments with lots of games in a short period of time Well take a look at the resaults form the Gathering a couple of weeks ago. I think he ended up 8'th (cant find the results right now) , in a rather weak lineup to be honest thoguh. He lost to his teammate.
He lost to Nightend 2-0 in uninspiring fashion
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On May 08 2011 05:26 SolonTLG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:21 Azarkon wrote:
I think that part of the reason players like Thorzain is able to do so well with only a few weeks of preparation is that the bar for mechanics in SC 2 is significantly lower than in BW. Thus, people with solid RTS backgrounds, like Thorzain, are able to reach that level without years of practice, and the main thing that they have to prepare is strategy, game sense, and match-up understanding. Winning in SC 2 is much more about having good tactics and decision making abilities than it is about being able to sustain 300 APM through a match because you have to individually click each one of your SCVs and tell them to mine. I can't tell if you think this is a good thing, or a bad thing, or just the way it is. Personally, I would rather have an emphasis on "strategy, game sense, and match-up understanding" than on mechanics to make-up for old AI.
For a sport its def more of a bad thing than good thing. People watch the best players because of their amazing skill not because they can execute a gameplan. This applies to any sport...the mystique of players like flash and jd is in part of because they can do things no other person can no matter how much they practice...few players can sustain 500 apm while still executing perfectly. But anyway dont want to get into the whole bw sc2 thing.
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On May 08 2011 05:24 shawnyee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:18 Sneakyz wrote:On May 08 2011 05:17 Nijel wrote:
And Bomber or Mvp would never be supply blocked that often lol.
At which point Thorzain was supply blocked ? It happened once or twice to Empire.Kas. Nah, to be fair he got supply blocket quite a bit. well to be fair, I think its the game that cant keep up with TZ, not the other way around.
no, just no. That makes no sense whatsoever. The game doesn't have to keep up with TZ.
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On May 08 2011 05:10 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:03 Thobrik wrote:On May 08 2011 05:00 ShooTouts wrote:On May 08 2011 04:59 insaneMicro wrote:
ThorZain beat MC ffs.
For me, he's no longer the underdog vs anyone. After this run, I think it's fair to rank him up there with the world's best terrans like MVP, MarineKing or SC2 NaDa. I agree theres no way Thorzain is an underdog even against Naniwa. The thing that's so difficult to comprehend is that ThorZain doesn't play at nearly the same level without proper preparation. Look for example at his games in The Gathering and the Rakaka tournament http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/The_Road_to_Korea I heard he got teamkilled in the gathering, and he plays Zerg in The Road to Korea.
That was after he was already out.
His play in the rest of the Road to Korea was not something to write home about though.
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On May 08 2011 05:30 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:11 Telcontar wrote:On May 08 2011 05:10 hifriend wrote:On May 08 2011 05:05 Guthix wrote:On May 08 2011 05:02 Kazang wrote:
These european Terrans are off the charts good. Even more impressive than MVP or Bomber imo. Lol I don't think thorzain or kas could take a game off of either Mvp or Bomber. Yes they do well in the TSL, but I don't think you realize how much better Mvp and Bomber are. The european terrans are most definitely the best in the foreign world, but korean terrans would probably wreck them. MC thinks european terrans are better than korean terrans. That must be why he crushed Kas and lost to Polt! That must be why he crushed MKP and lost to Thorzain! Wow! Taking things in isolated context is fun and very accurate!
Last time MKP faced MC MKP won so I don't know where you're getting that.
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On May 08 2011 05:32 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 05:26 SolonTLG wrote:On May 08 2011 05:21 Azarkon wrote:
I think that part of the reason players like Thorzain is able to do so well with only a few weeks of preparation is that the bar for mechanics in SC 2 is significantly lower than in BW. Thus, people with solid RTS backgrounds, like Thorzain, are able to reach that level without years of practice, and the main thing that they have to prepare is strategy, game sense, and match-up understanding. Winning in SC 2 is much more about having good tactics and decision making abilities than it is about being able to sustain 300 APM through a match because you have to individually click each one of your SCVs and tell them to mine. I can't tell if you think this is a good thing, or a bad thing, or just the way it is. Personally, I would rather have an emphasis on "strategy, game sense, and match-up understanding" than on mechanics to make-up for old AI. For a sport its def more of a bad thing than good thing. People watch the best players because of their amazing skill not because they can execute a gameplan. This applies to any sport...the mystique of players like flash and jd is in part of because they can do things no other person can no matter how much they practice...few players can sustain 500 apm while still executing perfectly. But anyway dont want to get into the whole bw sc2 thing.
Good points! Yes, we should definitely drop this topic, sorry. 
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EPT
